Posts belonging to Category 'Celebrex Drug Warning'

Thirty-eight babies died. Sixteen on Nevirapine

Question:

LOL! If you can find any evidence of any "AIDS industry" money coming my way, please let me know, because I think they’ve been depositing it in the wrong bank account. I’m currently employed solely by a charitable research organisation (I have a 403(b), not a 401(k)). Any why the quotes around the Dr bit? I mean, I have two "doctor" degrees, so if you’re uncertain about one I can always bring out the other! Note that Fishbein’s clarification actually supports what I said…so where am I supposed to be misleading anyone, hmm? Cheers Bennett

Response:

AS A MATTER OF RECORD, THE POST OF A "DR" BENNETT IS THE SAME WHO IS EMPLOYED BY THE AIDS INDUSTRY. kjl And let’s get all the facts on the table here… below is a clarification issued by the whistleblower, the honest and good Dr. Fishbein, a few days ago. It wasn’t a small matter of record-keeping anymore than the Enron scandal was a minor detail of accounting. We are talking about compromised integrity; data which and researchers whom are now suspect. We don’t assume safety and efficacy, they must be established. Without the evidence, it is assumed Nevirapine is not safe or is not effective. The hypocratic oath doesn’t state, first do what you believe might help, it states: FIRST, DO NO HARM. << Without adherence to this standard, no honest assessment of the safety and efficacy of nevirapine in preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS from mother to child can be made from the HIVNET 012 data. NIH and the HIVNET 012 researchers have violated the public trust by ignoring rules and regulations designed to protect the well-being of vulnerable patient populations and the integrity of scientific research. Americans and Africans alike should be outraged by this behavior.

HonestDoctor.org FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT: Rand H. Fishbein, Ph.D. Tel: (301) 767-1691 Internet: _www.HonestDoctor.org_ (http://www.honestdoctor.org/) FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Fishbein Clarifies Allegations: NIH Officials Betray Public Trust, Perpetuate Widespread Cover-up of Clinical Trial Data * * * * * Washington, D.C., December 22, 2004. There have been some incorrect assertions and inferences in the press regarding the exact nature of my allegations against the National Institutes of Health (NIH) and its officials. This statement clarifies my position. My sole criticism of the HIVNET 012 clinical trial rests with the issue of scientific integrity. It is my contention that NIH-sponsored researchers knowingly failed to abide by the most fundamental tenets of Good Clinical Practice (GCP) when studying the effects of the drug nevirapine on African research subjects. GCP is an internationally recognized standard for conducting clinical research. Its purpose is to assure the public that test data is credible and that the safety, well-being, and rights of clinical trial subjects are protected. The failings of the HIVNET 012 researchers were compounded by NIH officials, who not only deceived the public, but knowingly withheld critical information from the President, necessary for him to make an informed decision about a major foreign policy initiative. Publicly, they have trivialized the deficiencies in the trial by calling them "procedural". The integrity of the HIVNET 012 study has been compromised in a number of ways. Some of the more egregious include: 1

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The NIH Two-Step – Stepping Over Bodies on the Way to Market

Question:

No URL ! Where is the web link URL uniform resource locator?, the source from where you extracted?…

Response:

WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS? http://www.altheal.org/toxicity/orphans.htm

Response:

WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS? http://www.altheal.org/toxicity/orphans.htm Plus the story is complete. Why do you need to read it at another location? If you do why not do a Google search. Is that so hard?

Response:

Please give the correct web link URL uniform resource locater… The URL you cite is to different content than what you posted !

Response:

…the source and context of the source can be followed up, reviewed and checked if you cite the correct web link URL for what you extract. Hold yourself to the same standards you are holding others with whom you do not agree. …Thank you for another example of a logical fallacy! http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/attack.htm

Response:

The article is new and was SENT TO ME BY THE AUTHOR. It has been posted by the author on Indy Media. You can search it. I found it easily (LA and SF IndyMedia). You can check with Liam if you wish. His e-mail address is in the Indy Media story. As I said before, not everything has a URL. In this case it does, but only as a post by the author. I heard today the article will appear in a major publication. I will post details once Liam gives me the go ahead.

Response:

The NIH Two-Step – Stepping Over Bodies on the Way to Market by Liam Scheff Saturday, Dec. 18, 2004 at 1:18 PM The major media is finally covering the toxicity of what pharmaceutical companies mislabel ‘AIDS Drugs,’ but they’re four years and hundreds of deaths too late This week, Dr. Edmund Tramont, Head of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) AIDS division, was outed by fellow NIH AIDS researcher Dr. Jonathan Fishbein, for burying evidence of drug toxicity in an African drug trial. Tramont censored reporting of thousands of toxic reactions and at least 14 deaths in the ongoing Nevirapine study in Uganda. The media has seized on this like it

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Bad Medicine:REMICADE for treatment of my Crohn's.

Question:

I have no side-effects from remicade whatsoever. I get it every eight weeks. Sure I get an occasional fungal infection, but thats about it. Ive tried every drug for CD. Thanx to remicade i can work and function in a more or less normal way. I dont have these experiences that you had, to me its a gift.

Response:

heh, unfortunately, autoimmunity diseases are characterized as having treatments often times worse than the disease itself! jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am sorry to hear that you had such a rough time with Remicade. I am sure that if you canvas the group, there has been someone who has had a serious negative reaction to every commonly used IBD drug. Pretty much every treatment for IBD has some type of possible nasty side effect. I once almost had a heart attack (at age 32) from being on too much prednisone. My normally really low blood pressure sky-rocketed to 198/99, they called in the crash cart and gave me nitroglycerin….that was a little scarey. I also suffered from septic shock before while on prednisone and could have very easily died. I have experienced daily migraines from 6MP and Methotrexate. It always made me terribly nervous when I saw "possible death" as a side effect of the 6MP and Methotrexate. I was a test subject for Remicade four years ago and it allowed me to get my life back. Previous to the Remicade I had been severely ill and unable to work for two years. In fact, I was usually unable to get out of bed. I never had any side effects that I can definitely attribute to Remicade, although I have been susceptible to pneumonia for the past three years. When I was actually on the Remicade, I never had pneumonia, so who knows. I am aware of the possible side effects of Remicade but I am waiting to get back on it as I need it again and it is, for me, better than the alternatives. I am currently stuck on prednisone, which terrifies me as I have had so many problems with it in the past. Ann During my 2nd treatment with Remicade, I started going into cardiac arrest, blood pressure went very low and pulse went very weak. Had to be rushed to a hospital for emergency treatment by ambuance. This happened in April 2002. My wife went on line, and the following is some frightening information she found: REMICADE SIDE EFFECTS. Although Remicade has been touted as a miracle product, since its approval, Remicade is a potent product that has been associated with such serious and debilitating side effcts. Patients have neither been warned adequately of these risks nor of their severity. Since its approval, in Aug. 1998, the warnings regarding using Remicadehave changed in response to these serious side effects. In Aug. 15, 2001, a "Black Box Warning" was added to Remicade’s label warning that TB, invasive fungal infections, and other opportunistic infections, have been observed in paients receiving Remicade and that some of these infections have been fatal. Additionally, the following a warning was added to the package insert: Cases of histoplasmosis, listeriosis, pneumocystosis and tuberculosis, have been observed in patients receiving Remicade…"On Oct. 5, 2001, Centocor sent health care professionals a letter warning them tubeculosis, and other serious oppotunistic infections including histoplasmosis, listeriosis, and pneumocystosis, have ben reported in both the clinical research and post-markeing surveillance settings. Some of these infections have been fatal. The letter refers the healthcare professional to the Aug. 15, 2001 revisions to the labeling for Remicade including the Black Box Warning. According to the manufacturer, at least 84 cases of tuberculosis had been reported in patients using Remicade. Less than a week later, On Oct. 18, 2001, a second drug warning was sent to Healthcare Professionals, warning them not to initiate Remicade therapy in patients with congestive heart failure, to discontinue Remicade in patients whose congestive heart faiure is worsening and to consider disconinuing Remicade in patients with stable congestive heart failure. Centocor provides in this letter that "Upon review of preliminary results of its ongoing phase 2 trial in 150 patients with moderate to severe NYHA classIII-IV) congestive heart failure (CHF), higher incidences of mortality and hospitalization for worsening heart failure were seen in patients treated with Remicade, especially those treated with the higher dose of 10 mg/kg. Seven of 101 patients treated with Remicade died compared to no deaths among the 49 patients on placebo. In Jan. 2002, the FDA, based upon adverse drug reactions reports, issued a warning about serious nervous system problems, involving demyelinization, MS and other conditions, associated with the use of Remicade. Centocor, currently warns that there are reports of serious infections, including tuberculosis (TB) and sepsis and that some of these infections have been fatal. Check THIS WEBSITE OUT FOR INFO. www.remicade-infliximab.com/pages or go to Web Search Engine "Dogpile" and enter drug name: Remicade, for further information. I’m 56 years old, and I’ve had reasonably good medical treatment here in Massachusetts for crohn’s and arthritis for approximately 25 years or so until my Remicade treatment. I would NEVER recommend Remicade (Infliximab) to anyone EVER!! Wouldn’t want anyone else to go through what I experienced with Remicade. For God and Country.

Response:

Different people have different reactions to medicine all the time. I am so sorry that you had such a bad experience with Remicade. I have had my share of random side effects…including serium sickness from the infusion itself…however I am now receiving the infusion and it has made me feel so much better already. The risks are worth it to me. You might want to consider pre-medicating prior to the infusion with Prednisone…I have a lot of information about my treatment with Remicade on my webpage…if anyone wants to check it out….I even have pictures of me getting the infusion!!!! www.crohnsresources.siteblast.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sorry you had such a bad reaction to the Remicade, but some folks do benefit with it’s use. I personally have never used it, but was on Imuran for a short period of time and developed pancreatitis. This is one of the stated side effects and I was aware of that prior to use. There are others taking Imuran that are having excellent results. I guess I’m saying that all of these medications can affect different people in different ways, but I will be going to methotrexate soon and that may be the drug for me. I would recommend people educate myself, but I wouldn’t stay away from these medications due to side affects for some people. These are all dangerous drugs and that is something to always keep in mind. Educate and monitor yourself and keep in close contact with your doc is my recommendation. Connie During my 2nd treatment with Remicade, I started going into cardiac arrest, blood pressure went very low and pulse went very weak. Had to be rushed to a hospital for emergency treatment by ambuance. This happened in April 2002. My wife went on line, and the following is some frightening information she found: REMICADE SIDE EFFECTS. Although Remicade has been touted as a miracle product, since its approval, Remicade is a potent product that has been associated with such serious and debilitating side effcts. Patients have neither been warned adequately of these risks nor of their severity. Since its approval, in Aug. 1998, the warnings regarding using Remicadehave changed in response to these serious side effects. In Aug. 15, 2001, a "Black Box Warning" was added to Remicade’s label warning that TB, invasive fungal infections, and other opportunistic infections, have been observed in paients receiving Remicade and that some of these infections have been fatal. Additionally, the following a warning was added to the package insert: Cases of histoplasmosis, listeriosis, pneumocystosis and tuberculosis, have been observed in patients receiving Remicade…"On Oct. 5, 2001, Centocor sent health care professionals a letter warning them tubeculosis, and other serious oppotunistic infections including histoplasmosis, listeriosis, and pneumocystosis, have ben reported in both the clinical research and post-markeing surveillance settings. Some of these infections have been fatal. The letter refers the healthcare professional to the Aug. 15, 2001 revisions to the labeling for Remicade including the Black Box Warning. According to the manufacturer, at least 84 cases of tuberculosis had been reported in patients using Remicade. Less than a week later, On Oct. 18, 2001, a second drug warning was sent to Healthcare Professionals, warning them not to initiate Remicade therapy in patients with congestive heart failure, to discontinue Remicade in patients whose congestive heart faiure is worsening and to consider disconinuing Remicade in patients with stable congestive heart failure. Centocor provides in this letter that "Upon review of preliminary results of its ongoing phase 2 trial in 150 patients with moderate to severe NYHA classIII-IV) congestive heart failure (CHF), higher incidences of mortality and hospitalization for worsening heart failure were seen in patients treated with Remicade, especially those treated with the higher dose of 10 mg/kg. Seven of 101 patients treated with Remicade died compared to no deaths among the 49 patients on placebo. In Jan. 2002, the FDA, based upon adverse drug reactions reports, issued a warning about serious nervous system problems, involving demyelinization, MS and other conditions, associated with the use of Remicade. Centocor, currently warns that there are reports of serious infections, including tuberculosis (TB) and sepsis and that some of these infections have been fatal. Check THIS WEBSITE OUT FOR INFO. www.remicade-infliximab.com/pages or go to Web Search Engine "Dogpile" and enter drug name: Remicade, for further information. I’m 56 years old, and I’ve had reasonably good medical treatment here in Massachusetts for crohn’s and arthritis for approximately 25 years or so until my Remicade treatment. I would NEVER recommend Remicade (Infliximab) to anyone EVER!! Wouldn’t want anyone else to go through what I experienced with Remicade. For God and Country.

Response:

I’m sorry you had such a bad reaction to the Remicade, but some folks do benefit with it’s use. I personally have never used it, but was on Imuran for a short period of time and developed pancreatitis. This is one of the stated side effects and I was aware of that prior to use. There are others taking Imuran that are having excellent results. I guess I’m saying that all of these medications can affect different people in different ways, but I will be going to methotrexate soon and that may be the drug for me. I would recommend people educate myself, but I wouldn’t stay away from these medications due to side affects for some people. These are all dangerous drugs and that is something to always keep in mind. Educate and monitor yourself and keep in close contact with your doc is my recommendation. Connie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – During my 2nd treatment with Remicade, I started going into cardiac arrest, blood pressure went very low and pulse went very weak. Had to be rushed to a hospital for emergency treatment by ambuance. This happened in April 2002. My wife went on line, and the following is some frightening information she found: REMICADE SIDE EFFECTS. Although Remicade has been touted as a miracle product, since its approval, Remicade is a potent product that has been associated with such serious and debilitating side effcts. Patients have neither been warned adequately of these risks nor of their severity. Since its approval, in Aug. 1998, the warnings regarding using Remicadehave changed in response to these serious side effects. In Aug. 15, 2001, a "Black Box Warning" was added to Remicade’s label warning that TB, invasive fungal infections, and other opportunistic infections, have been observed in paients receiving Remicade and that some of these infections have been fatal. Additionally, the following a warning was added to the package insert: Cases of histoplasmosis, listeriosis, pneumocystosis and tuberculosis, have been observed in patients receiving Remicade…"On Oct. 5, 2001, Centocor sent health care professionals a letter warning them tubeculosis, and other serious oppotunistic infections including histoplasmosis, listeriosis, and pneumocystosis, have ben reported in both the clinical research and post-markeing surveillance settings. Some of these infections have been fatal. The letter refers the healthcare professional to the Aug. 15, 2001 revisions to the labeling for Remicade including the Black Box Warning. According to the manufacturer, at least 84 cases of tuberculosis had been reported in patients using Remicade. Less than a week later, On Oct. 18, 2001, a second drug warning was sent to Healthcare Professionals, warning them not to initiate Remicade therapy in patients with congestive heart failure, to discontinue Remicade in patients whose congestive heart faiure is worsening and to consider disconinuing Remicade in patients with stable congestive heart failure. Centocor provides in this letter that "Upon review of preliminary results of its ongoing phase 2 trial in 150 patients with moderate to severe NYHA classIII-IV) congestive heart failure (CHF), higher incidences of mortality and hospitalization for worsening heart failure were seen in patients treated with Remicade, especially those treated with the higher dose of 10 mg/kg. Seven of 101 patients treated with Remicade died compared to no deaths among the 49 patients on placebo. In Jan. 2002, the FDA, based upon adverse drug reactions reports, issued a warning about serious nervous system problems, involving demyelinization, MS and other conditions, associated with the use of Remicade. Centocor, currently warns that there are reports of serious infections, including tuberculosis (TB) and sepsis and that some of these infections have been fatal. Check THIS WEBSITE OUT FOR INFO. www.remicade-infliximab.com/pages or go to Web Search Engine "Dogpile" and enter drug name: Remicade, for further information. I’m 56 years old, and I’ve had reasonably good medical treatment here in Massachusetts for crohn’s and arthritis for approximately 25 years or so until my Remicade treatment. I would NEVER recommend Remicade (Infliximab) to anyone EVER!! Wouldn’t want anyone else to go through what I experienced with Remicade. For God and Country.

Response:

i don’t doubt you had a bad experience. if you read any medicine side effects you will find stuff there that would worry you. we all take chances. i too have taken meds and ended up in the hospital due to an allergic reaction, so i am coming to this conversation with that back ground experience. it is a calculated risk. yes i take remicade, and yes, i have no side effects but good effects, and many others also have good effects, however YES, there are risks. you have to take it upon yourself to become knowledgeable about what you put in your body. don’t rely on others to force feed you that info or ignor it. it is an individual responsibility. i would never tell someone to *never* use this drug or that drug, whatever. people have to make decisions for themselves, about *every* medication we take…and believe me, i know, i take about 10 different ones plus remicade plus allergy shots. sorry you had such a terrible experience and i think it is important to hear from people like yourself, but it is still an individual decision. jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – During my 2nd treatment with Remicade, I started going into cardiac arrest, blood pressure went very low and pulse went very weak. Had to be rushed to a hospital for emergency treatment by ambuance. This happened in April 2002. My wife went on line, and the following is some frightening information she found: REMICADE SIDE EFFECTS. Although Remicade has been touted as a miracle product, since its approval, Remicade is a potent product that has been associated with such serious and debilitating side effcts. Patients have neither been warned adequately of these risks nor of their severity. Since its approval, in Aug. 1998, the warnings regarding using Remicadehave changed in response to these serious side effects. In Aug. 15, 2001, a "Black Box Warning" was added to Remicade’s label warning that TB, invasive fungal infections, and other opportunistic infections, have been observed in paients receiving Remicade and that some of these infections have been fatal. Additionally, the following a warning was added to the package insert: Cases of histoplasmosis, listeriosis, pneumocystosis and tuberculosis, have been observed in patients receiving Remicade…"On Oct. 5, 2001, Centocor sent health care professionals a letter warning them tubeculosis, and other serious oppotunistic infections including histoplasmosis, listeriosis, and pneumocystosis, have ben reported in both the clinical research and post-markeing surveillance settings. Some of these infections have been fatal. The letter refers the healthcare professional to the Aug. 15, 2001 revisions to the labeling for Remicade including the Black Box Warning. According to the manufacturer, at least 84 cases of tuberculosis had been reported in patients using Remicade. Less than a week later, On Oct. 18, 2001, a second drug warning was sent to Healthcare Professionals, warning them not to initiate Remicade therapy in patients with congestive heart failure, to discontinue Remicade in patients whose congestive heart faiure is worsening and to consider disconinuing Remicade in patients with stable congestive heart failure. Centocor provides in this letter that "Upon review of preliminary results of its ongoing phase 2 trial in 150 patients with moderate to severe NYHA classIII-IV) congestive heart failure (CHF), higher incidences of mortality and hospitalization for worsening heart failure were seen in patients treated with Remicade, especially those treated with the higher dose of 10 mg/kg. Seven of 101 patients treated with Remicade died compared to no deaths among the 49 patients on placebo. In Jan. 2002, the FDA, based upon adverse drug reactions reports, issued a warning about serious nervous system problems, involving demyelinization, MS and other conditions, associated with the use of Remicade. Centocor, currently warns that there are reports of serious infections, including tuberculosis (TB) and sepsis and that some of these infections have been fatal. Check THIS WEBSITE OUT FOR INFO. www.remicade-infliximab.com/pages or go to Web Search Engine "Dogpile" and enter drug name: Remicade, for further information. I’m 56 years old, and I’ve had reasonably good medical treatment here in Massachusetts for crohn’s and arthritis for approximately 25 years or so until my Remicade treatment. I would NEVER recommend Remicade (Infliximab) to anyone EVER!! Wouldn’t want anyone else to go through what I experienced with Remicade. For God and Country.

Response:

Sorry to hear about your reaction. Fortunately, as others have said, there really isn’t anything on the market without some kind of possible side effect, some worse than others. That’s what the informed disclosures they make you sign are for. Personally, I read everything like that from top to bottom and my doc usually gives them to me before my appointment so that I have time to read them. Anyone can be allergic to a drug. My personal "major" drug allergy is to cocaine. I’m very thankful to this day that I never had an urge to experiment with illegal substances as I would probably be dead. The small amount that was in the topical anasthetic my ENT gave me was bad enough. My sister is allergic to the drug that stops contractions to prevent a pre-term delivery. She went into labor at five and a half months into her pregnancy, they administered this very commonly used drug, and she went into cardiac arrest. She was revived and life flighted to Magee Women’s Hospital in Pittsburgh where she gave birth to a 1 pound nine ounce baby girl. (Now my healthy, smart 16 y.o. niece!) Unfortunately, you never know who will have adverse reactions. However, drugs only make it to market if a small percentage of people are at risk of a reaction otherwise they will get pulled. Sometimes one must take the risk to receive the greatest reward. For my friend here in NC that is on remicade, it gave her her life back as it has done for many others. Susan s h simko at duke dot edu

Response:

During my 2nd treatment with Remicade, I started going into cardiac arrest, blood pressure went very low and pulse went very weak. Had to be rushed to a hospital for emergency treatment by ambuance.

Does this mean you received Remicade outside of hospital? Here in Denmark it is simply not possible, Remicade is only given in hospitals and when they do they have the full emergency kit laid out with 15 difference drugs ready for injection (beta blockers, adrenalin etc). They also monitor your blood pressure every 10/20 minuttes. The side effects can in deed be severe, that is why they prepare for immidiate action in case you show any reaction. Also the reaction may not show up on the 1st treatment, but later. Remicade is a potent product that has been associated with such serious and debilitating side effcts. Patients have neither been warned adequately of these risks nor of their severity.

I was very well informed, both from my doctors and by reading information material in paper and on the net. I recieved two treatments about a year ago because I kept having fistula to the bladder. I am convinced they helped a lot. But the effect is not permanent. My symptoms right now are not severe enough to use remicade, but we have talked about using it if I get lots of prokblems. As it look right now I will most likely have to have surgery to remove two 10 cm (4") long narrows of the small intestines. At the same time they will cut the connection between bladder and bowel. I am going to X-Ray tomorrow, to investigate how it looks now. In Aug. 15, 2001, a "Black Box Warning" was added to Remicade’s label warning that TB, invasive fungal infections, and other opportunistic infections,

Before my treatment I was screened for TB. And because I had bladder infections all the time they gave me IV antibiotics for 2 days. I would NEVER recommend Remicade (Infliximab) to anyone EVER!! Wouldn’t want anyone else to go through what I experienced with Remicade.

As for any treatment, you have to weight the risk of side effects with the chance of positive effects, as well as take proper precautions. I would not hesitate to try Remicade again, if I started having gas going through my urinary tract 6-15 times a day. Regards Nicolai CD since ‘91 — http://nicolai.hjorth.com

Response:

I’m sorry you had a bad experience. I have had over 13 infusions without anything worse than headache and nausea. Remicade is not for everyone but this is one reason it should be given in a HOSPITAL setting each and every time. I will not hesitate to have Remicade again if it is warranted. mgbio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – During my 2nd treatment with Remicade, I started going into cardiac arrest, blood pressure went very low and pulse went very weak. Had to be rushed to a hospital for emergency treatment by ambuance. This happened in April 2002. My wife went on line, and the following is some frightening information she found: REMICADE SIDE EFFECTS. Although Remicade has been touted as a miracle product, since its approval, Remicade is a potent product that has been associated with such serious and debilitating side effcts. Patients have neither been warned adequately of these risks nor of their severity. Since its approval, in Aug. 1998, the warnings regarding using Remicadehave changed in response to these serious side effects. In Aug. 15, 2001, a "Black Box Warning" was added to Remicade’s label warning that TB, invasive fungal infections, and other opportunistic infections, have been observed in paients receiving Remicade and that some of these infections have been fatal. Additionally, the following a warning was added to the package insert: Cases of histoplasmosis, listeriosis, pneumocystosis and tuberculosis, have been observed in patients receiving Remicade…"On Oct. 5, 2001, Centocor sent health care professionals a letter warning them tubeculosis, and other serious oppotunistic infections including histoplasmosis, listeriosis, and pneumocystosis, have ben reported in both the clinical research and post-markeing surveillance settings. Some of these infections have been fatal. The letter refers the healthcare professional to the Aug. 15, 2001 revisions to the labeling for Remicade including the Black Box Warning. According to the manufacturer, at least 84 cases of tuberculosis had been reported in patients using Remicade. Less than a week later, On Oct. 18, 2001, a second drug warning was sent to Healthcare Professionals, warning them not to initiate Remicade therapy in patients with congestive heart failure, to discontinue Remicade in patients whose congestive heart faiure is worsening and to consider disconinuing Remicade in patients with stable congestive heart failure. Centocor provides in this letter that "Upon review of preliminary results of its ongoing phase 2 trial in 150 patients with moderate to severe NYHA classIII-IV) congestive heart failure (CHF), higher incidences of mortality and hospitalization for worsening heart failure were seen in patients treated with Remicade, especially those treated with the higher dose of 10 mg/kg. Seven of 101 patients treated with Remicade died compared to no deaths among the 49 patients on placebo. In Jan. 2002, the FDA, based upon adverse drug reactions reports, issued a warning about serious nervous system problems, involving demyelinization, MS and other conditions, associated with the use of Remicade. Centocor, currently warns that there are reports of serious infections, including tuberculosis (TB) and sepsis and that some of these infections have been fatal. Check THIS WEBSITE OUT FOR INFO. www.remicade-infliximab.com/pages or go to Web Search Engine "Dogpile" and enter drug name: Remicade, for further information. I’m 56 years old, and I’ve had reasonably good medical treatment here in Massachusetts for crohn’s and arthritis for approximately 25 years or so until my Remicade treatment. I would NEVER recommend Remicade (Infliximab) to anyone EVER!! Wouldn’t want anyone else to go through what I experienced with Remicade. For God and Country.

Response:

I am sorry to hear that you had such a rough time with Remicade. I am sure that if you canvas the group, there has been someone who has had a serious negative reaction to every commonly used IBD drug. Pretty much every treatment for IBD has some type of possible nasty side effect. I once almost had a heart attack (at age 32) from being on too much prednisone. My normally really low blood pressure sky-rocketed to 198/99, they called in the crash cart and gave me nitroglycerin….that was a little scarey. I also suffered from septic shock before while on prednisone and could have very easily died. I have experienced daily migraines from 6MP and Methotrexate. It always made me terribly nervous when I saw "possible death" as a side effect of the 6MP and Methotrexate. I was a test subject for Remicade four years ago and it allowed me to get my life back. Previous to the Remicade I had been severely ill and unable to work for two years. In fact, I was usually unable to get out of bed. I never had any side effects that I can definitely attribute to Remicade, although I have been susceptible to pneumonia for the past three years. When I was actually on the Remicade, I never had pneumonia, so who knows. I am aware of the possible side effects of Remicade but I am waiting to get back on it as I need it again and it is, for me, better than the alternatives. I am currently stuck on prednisone, which terrifies me as I have had so many problems with it in the past. Ann

Response:

my doctor has explicitly told me that due to my severe stricturing, that Remicade is not the drug of choice for me.. so i no longer will take this drug. i have had bad side effects to Pentasa and Prednisone— can no longer take that either. iwas always weary of a drug called a wonder drug.. i know it helps many but i can understand why some would never take it or recommend it..

Response:

Did a physician tell you that all your problems were caused by this one remicade infusion or is this just your inference? If it did indeed cause all your listed problems, then you are fortunately (yes unfortunately for you) in a small minority. My wife went on line, and the following is some frightening information she found: REMICADE SIDE EFFECTS. Although Remicade has been touted as a miracle product, since its approval, Remicade is a potent product that has been associated with such serious and debilitating side effcts.

Every single medication on the market has at least one side effect, drugs work by altering normal physiological processes. Patients have neither been warned adequately of these risks nor of their severity. Since its approval, in Aug. 1998, the warnings regarding using Remicadehave changed in response to these serious side effects. In Aug. 15, 2001, a "Black Box Warning" was added to Remicade’s label warning that TB, invasive fungal infections, and other opportunistic infections, have been observed in paients receiving Remicade and that some of these infections have been fatal.

All patients now get a chest X-ray before receiving remicade nowadays, plus you have to remember that in order for TB to appear after remicade treatment, a patient must have been exposed to TB previously and have a latent infection. This isn’t much of an issue in North America. For physicians it was and is still a learning process, just like any new drug. Additionally, the following a warning was added to the package – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – insert: Cases of histoplasmosis, listeriosis, pneumocystosis and tuberculosis, have been observed in patients receiving Remicade…"On Oct. 5, 2001, Centocor sent health care professionals a letter warning them tubeculosis, and other serious oppotunistic infections including histoplasmosis, listeriosis, and pneumocystosis, have ben reported in both the clinical research and post-markeing surveillance settings. Some of these infections have been fatal. The letter refers the healthcare professional to the Aug. 15, 2001 revisions to the labeling for Remicade including the Black Box Warning. According to the manufacturer, at least 84 cases of tuberculosis had been reported in patients using Remicade. Less than a week later, On Oct. 18, 2001, a second drug warning was sent to Healthcare Professionals, warning them not to initiate Remicade therapy in patients with congestive heart failure, to discontinue Remicade in patients whose congestive heart faiure is worsening and to consider disconinuing Remicade in patients with stable congestive heart failure. Centocor provides in this letter that "Upon review of preliminary results of its ongoing phase 2 trial in 150 patients with moderate to severe NYHA classIII-IV) congestive heart failure (CHF), higher incidences of mortality and hospitalization for worsening heart failure were seen in patients treated with Remicade, especially those treated with the higher dose of 10 mg/kg.

The typical dose of remicade is only 5 mg/kg, with most monoclonal antibody treatments more is not better, therefore there is little reason to go that high in the clinical setting. Remicade is one of the first "target" medications on the market. Unlike the immunomodulators like azathioprine, 6-MP, cyclosporine, and methothrexate, it does not work by general immune suppression. Rather it achieves it’s effectiveness by blocking the action of one cytokine (TNF-alpha) which is involved in the inflammatory process. This also means that bone marrow suppression is not a problem as it is with some of the immunomodulators. Seven of 101 patients treated with Remicade died compared to no deaths among the 49 patients on placebo. In Jan. 2002, the FDA, based upon adverse drug reactions reports, issued a warning about serious nervous system problems, involving demyelinization, MS and other conditions, associated with the use of Remicade. Centocor, currently warns that there are reports of serious infections, including tuberculosis (TB) and sepsis and that some of these infections have been fatal. Check THIS WEBSITE OUT FOR INFO. www.remicade-infliximab.com/pages or go to Web Search

This link is your typical biased, questionable, and credibilty-challenged website that seems to pop up for almost anything that a lawyer or someone else can make some dollars off. The only thing lawsuits do, unless they are actually warranted, is raise the cost of medications and cause some companies to drop out of a particular marketplace. Engine "Dogpile" and enter drug name: Remicade, for further information. I’m 56 years old, and I’ve had reasonably good medical treatment here in Massachusetts for crohn’s and arthritis for approximately 25 years or so until my Remicade treatment. I would NEVER recommend Remicade (Infliximab) to anyone EVER!! Wouldn’t want anyone else to go through what I experienced with Remicade.

Well fortunately patients and physicians don’t make decisions based on the results from one individual. I’ve never been treated with it, but I know this medication has been a saviour for many people with IBD, as well as other autoimmune conditions such as RA and MS. Keep in mind that remicade wouldn’t be on the market right now if it hadn’t been deemed safe by all proper authorities. Long term use may still in question, but only because it’s a relatively new medication and data is not yet available.

Response:

So what are you doing now to care for your condition? I’m currently taking Remicade without any "KNOWN" side effects, but haven’t been able to control my disease other wise, so I take it with the risks to have some type of life now.

Response:

snip I would NEVER recommend Remicade (Infliximab) to anyone EVER!! Wouldn’t want anyone else to go through what I experienced with Remicade.

Sorry that you went through this. That said, however, you are going to find bad reactions out there to *any* serious medication available, especially if pre-screening and monitoring are inadequate. I don’t feel like any of the drawbacks or the heart problem potential was held back from me or my son, and heart problems were part of the screening. After all, there is a reason why good facilities monitor blood pressure and the like while infusing with Remicade. It’s not a drug to be used casually and without aforethought–but that can refer to drugs like Prednisone, Singulair and other wonder drugs out there which do good things for folks with serious problems. Drug consumer safety rules *require* that you evaluate the potential side effects against what you hope the drug will do, as well as its interactions with current drugs. That applies to your OTC stuff as well as prescription drugs. jrw

Response:

I’m glad to see I’m not the only one who doesn’t recommend remicade… It’s dangerous stuff…….Thanks for sharing your experience. Ken.W 8 Years Med Free

Response:

During my 2nd treatment with Remicade, I started going into cardiac arrest, blood pressure went very low and pulse went very weak. Had to be rushed to a hospital for emergency treatment by ambuance. This happened in April 2002. My wife went on line, and the following is some frightening information she found: REMICADE SIDE EFFECTS. Although Remicade has been touted as a miracle product, since its approval, Remicade is a potent product that has been associated with such serious and debilitating side effcts. Patients have neither been warned adequately of these risks nor of their severity. Since its approval, in Aug. 1998, the warnings regarding using Remicadehave changed in response to these serious side effects. In Aug. 15, 2001, a "Black Box Warning" was added to Remicade’s label warning that TB, invasive fungal infections, and other opportunistic infections, have been observed in paients receiving Remicade and that some of these infections have been fatal. Additionally, the following a warning was added to the package insert: Cases of histoplasmosis, listeriosis, pneumocystosis and tuberculosis, have been observed in patients receiving Remicade…"On Oct. 5, 2001, Centocor sent health care professionals a letter warning them tubeculosis, and other serious oppotunistic infections including histoplasmosis, listeriosis, and pneumocystosis, have ben reported in both the clinical research and post-markeing surveillance settings. Some of these infections have been fatal. The letter refers the healthcare professional to the Aug. 15, 2001 revisions to the labeling for Remicade including the Black Box Warning. According to the manufacturer, at least 84 cases of tuberculosis had been reported in patients using Remicade. Less than a week later, On Oct. 18, 2001, a second drug warning was sent to Healthcare Professionals, warning them not to initiate Remicade therapy in patients with congestive heart failure, to discontinue Remicade in patients whose congestive heart faiure is worsening and to consider disconinuing Remicade in patients with stable congestive heart failure. Centocor provides in this letter that "Upon review of preliminary results of its ongoing phase 2 trial in 150 patients with moderate to severe NYHA classIII-IV) congestive heart failure (CHF), higher incidences of mortality and hospitalization for worsening heart failure were seen in patients treated with Remicade, especially those treated with the higher dose of 10 mg/kg. Seven of 101 patients treated with Remicade died compared to no deaths among the 49 patients on placebo. In Jan. 2002, the FDA, based upon adverse drug reactions reports, issued a warning about serious nervous system problems, involving demyelinization, MS and other conditions, associated with the use of Remicade. Centocor, currently warns that there are reports of serious infections, including tuberculosis (TB) and sepsis and that some of these infections have been fatal. Check THIS WEBSITE OUT FOR INFO. www.remicade-infliximab.com/pages or go to Web Search Engine "Dogpile" and enter drug name: Remicade, for further information. I’m 56 years old, and I’ve had reasonably good medical treatment here in Massachusetts for crohn’s and arthritis for approximately 25 years or so until my Remicade treatment. I would NEVER recommend Remicade (Infliximab) to anyone EVER!! Wouldn’t want anyone else to go through what I experienced with Remicade. For God and Country.

Response:

Category Categories: Celebrex Drug Warning | No Comments »

HRT

Question:

I’ve been doing lots of research on taking HRT and I am also reading what people write and it seems to me that the women taking the hormones seem to be happy and feel great. I wonder, did it take you guys a long time to come to the decision to take the hormones? did you ever want to get off them? are the doctors providing the kind of support women need to make the decision to get on HRT? THanks. RC

Response:

Randi Calesa (Cal…@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

: I’ve been doing lots of research on taking HRT and I am also reading what : people write and it seems to me that the women taking the hormones seem : to be happy and feel great. I wonder, did it take you guys a long time : to come to the decision to take the hormones? did you ever want to get : off them? are the doctors providing the kind of support women need to : make the decision to get on HRT? THanks. RC You may want to wait until Dr. Susan Love’s new book on HRT comes out in Feb 97 before you make your decision. Apparently most women only take them for 3-4 years for various reasons. It must be not all that wonderful in the long haul. Besides if all you are interested in is "feeling good," then why not take "natural progesterone" instead of HRT. That is the most enthusiastic camp of "feel gooders" for my vote. Keep reading and you will hear many women unhappy with the Provera part of HRT, while unopposed estrogen seems to be highly problematic. I wonder if you got a chance to read "The Menopause Industry" yet. Sounds like a lot of your questions could be answered in that book. Please read all the fine print on the product inserts that come with the pills before you make your decision. Weigh what you are looking for to control. If you just can’t deal with the hot flashes or the vaginal atrophy, then you may have an efficacious short-term use product as long as you fully understand what the product insert is telling you regarding risks. But if all you want is to "feel great like all the other women who take HRT," I suggest you keep investigating further. Some people can feel great with alcohol, Valium, or a box of chocolate. IMHO, that is pretty subjective criteria to use before putting dangerous chemicals in your body. Read the product inserts! And keep reading the posts. Many here taking various forms of hormones or BCP’s are still having problems. And those of us who do not take anything feel pretty great too, plus are saving a lot of money and worry as well. Joan

Response:

ka…@wordwrite.com wrote:

: Joan Livingston (joan…@rain.org) wrote: : : Besides if all you are : : interested in is "feeling good," then why not take "natural progesterone" : : instead of HRT. : : Natural progesterone *is* HRT. : Karen Good point. When I use HRT I refer to the estrogen/Provera combination versus ERT which is the estrogen replacement only. And I have learned from this group to distinguish the Provera progesterone from the "natural yam/soy progesetrones." Yes, they are all "HRT" in a looser sense. I will watch this imprecise definition in the future. It could be confusing. Thanks. My distinction separates the tradition hormone replacement which it appears from this group’s discussion that most MDs are familiar with which is the horse urine or estradiol estrogen/Provera. And I gather from this group’s discussions that the "natural yam/soy progesterone" replacement is viewed by the MD’s as less traditional. Although, I also gather from this group that this attitude is changing. And then there is my approach which is to question the point of "replacing" estrogen and progesterone in the first place since they are fundamentally fertility hormones. We did not "replace" them when we did not have them pre-puberty and I question whether there is an -automatic- need to "replace" them when we pass out of our reproductive years. I continue to question the methodology and efficacy of "studies" that "prove" these are needed to be artificially replaced in the naturally menopausal women. I question if more specific and localized "treatment" of "symptoms" during this time are not also more efficacious recommendations. (ie. depression is treated as depression, and not merely as a female hormone problem.) Surgically induced menopause is an entirely different matter. That was not a "natural" transition that allowed the body to go through an adaptive process from the change from its reproductive state to its non-reproductive state. Joan

Response:

In article <564r9k$…@news.rain.org

, joan…@rain.org (Joan Livingston) wrote: …. this group’s discussions that the "natural yam/soy progesterone" ….

I no longer think that wild yam is natural progesterone, although I did at first. From a post in this group: From _What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Menopause: the Breakthrough Book on Natural Progsterone_ by John R. Lee, M.D. with Virginia Hopkins, Warner Books, Inc. 1996 Copywritten material follows: One word of caution: Not all products with labels claiming "wild yam extract" actually contain any progesterone. … Progesterone is obtained by extracting specific components from plants (e.g. diosgenin from wild yams or soybeans) and then converting them to actual progesterone in the laboratory. Progesterone (U.S. Pharmacopeia) is available on the wholesale pharmaceutical market. It is used by the major pharmaceutical companies as the base from which they synthesize their estrogen, testosterone, cortisone, and of course, their progestin products. …there is no evidence that the human body converts diosgenin to hormones. pp 269-270 Any spelling errors or typos are mine. dn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Paul Anacker <xtraby…@fishnet.net

wrote: I’m sorry if this rain’s on the parade of a lot of the MLM companies that are promoting Mexican Wild Yam (Dioscorea) cream, but I thought people (women) should know about it’s efficacy before spending their money or getting involved in a "Get Rich Quick" scheme. I would like to hear from women who have used Natural Progesterone cream that worked for them. Please email me the following info: Brand Cost Size % Progesterone Place of Purchase —– —- —- ————– —————– Sincerely, Paul Anacker, JD Lead Editor "Biological Aging Measurement" by Ward Dean, MD ====The Report=========================================== Natural Progesterone and Yam Extract The following has been composed to help clear up confusion over the efficacy of Yam extract (Discorea Villosa) and Natural Progesterone.

We have received many letters from women who are suffering due to the fact that they have not responded to a variety of traditional treatments. Complicating matters is the fact that some companies in the U. S., are claiming or implying that their products contain Natural Progesterone, when, in fact, an examination of their ingredients reveals that they only contain Yam extract. All of the research that we have reviewed on Progesterone demonstrates that it is supplemental Natural Progesterone that will produce an increase in serum levels of progesterone, not Yam extract. (It is important to note that Yam contains plant saponins that have been shown to promote good health. However, what is at issue are serum progesterone levels.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Additionally, a reputable hormone testing facility in the United States has stated that supplemental natural progesterone cream has been shown to raise serum progesterone levels and that they have never observed an increase in serum progesterone from Yam extract supplementation alone! As a further disservice to the women who suffer with the symptoms brought on by "estrogen dominance" some company representatives will tell you that Yam extract (diosgenin) is molecularly the same as Natural Progesterone and that users of their "progesterone cream" will find the same benefit as they would with a cream that really contains USP Natural Progesterone. The current published research and clinical experience do not support that claim.* ——————————————————————– *A current review of the Med-Line Database (4/10/96) revealed more than 5,000 published studies completed on "Progesterone" since 1993. (k=progesterone)

(end of report. back to JL.)

… Surgically induced menopause is an entirely different matter. ….

Maybe. And maybe menopause is menopause, regardless of how it comes about. I know that both my mother, who had surgically induced menopause in her forties, and myself, who is about to reach a menopause which is natural (in my fifties), experience(d) night sweats but *not* daytime hot flashes. This is apparently less common than the reverse. Again, the program I use wouldn’t let me post because it said I had too much included text, so I have made it look as if I wrote stuff in the middle that I in fact didn’t write. Cathe (Browman)

Response:

In article <564r9k$…@news.rain.org

, joan…@rain.org (Joan Livingston)

writes:

Surgically induced menopause is an entirely different matter. That was not a "natural" transition that allowed the body to go through an adaptive process from the change from its reproductive state to its non-reproductive state. Joan

Ah, but Joan, if the lack of hormones is the ultimate proper state of being for a mature woman, why supplement after oophorectomy? At what point would you recommend dropping the HRT after surgically induced menopause? Since it is not a natural transition, perhaps one has permission to continue until whenever? And if I feel sick when I stop the medicine or start to taper it off, does that mean I’m an addict who needs to be cured or a sick person who needs HRT to feel normal? Cheryl Ni…@AOL.com (Cheryl A. Snider)

Response:

ka…@wordwrite.com wrote:

: : But doesn’t it seem strange to you that when women *do* take hormones : that depression disappears? : Karen Some do, some don’t. According to anecdote, as well as studies. I am just repeating what a MD psychiatrist said yesterday in a course on depression for nurses CEU and general public. That they are finding it does not manage cases of depression as well as originally thought. Now this could well mean the more severe cases of depression rather than milder ones. He did say that he felt menopausal depression was one of the more easily treatable depression so since estrogen is a recognized euphoric for some reasons not yet identified biochemically with any precision, estrogen may be adequate for some women, if they want this approach. And of course there is our good friend the placebo as well which can "cure" just about anything. I will try to track down more info on this from UCLA where work is being done on this very issue. Also done at Baylor. Any Texas gals out there to find out what they are doing on estrogens and depression at Baylor? I guess my only caution is that if one has serious depression -and symptoms, according to this course, go well beyond just feeling blue or a little sad, then it may be more appropriate to treat it with the modalities specifically researched in psychotherapy and psychologically specific medications for depression. But, who else remembers the good old "frontal lobotomy" used back in the 50’s. This is my only remembrance of my mother and her friends talking about these things at maybe the peri-stages of their lives, but actually it was earlier ages than that for them, but who I realize now were suffering from that suburban disease with no name Betty Friedan wrote about in "The Feminine Mystique", which most likely was depression. They would talk about being afraid to go to one of the two women’s doctors in town because he always recommended frontal lobotomies for "hysterical women." No wonder many of our mothers didn’t talk much about menopause. Does anyone else have these frontal lobotomy stories? One woman friend of my parents who was very suicidal at that time did get one and it did cure her of her suicidal problems. She did get happier, put on weight and stopped being an obsessive housekeeper. She is still alive in her 80’s and happy and really quite normal from all appearances. What a story. But then before drugs and current non-drug therapies, there was just shock treatment and these lobotomies for the woman in distress. I guess I have to give -some- credit to the advance of science in this area. Joan

Response:

Joan – this is offtopic but – I’ve never met anyone with a frontal lobotomy. Could she speak rationally and act/function normally? Thanks – dn joan…@rain.org (Joan Livingston) wrote:

snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Does anyone else have these frontal lobotomy stories? One woman friend of my parents who was very suicidal at that time did get one and it did cure her of her suicidal problems. She did get happier, put on weight and stopped being an obsessive housekeeper. She is still alive in her 80’s and happy and really quite normal from all appearances. What a story. But then before drugs and current non-drug therapies, there was just shock treatment and these lobotomies for the woman in distress. I guess I have to give -some- credit to the advance of science in this area. Joan

Response:

This is fascinating – I didn’t know that estrogens and depression had been sufficiently explored. (Love the serotonin connection!) But I do know the Wyeth-Ayerst insert says estrogens don’t affect depression (!?!) and have actually read books by nice young people trying to explain that it’s really "just" the lack of sleep that’s bumming you out. So this is confusing to me – on one hand it seems that mainstream medicine is only waking up to the connection and on the other you report that they’re getting away from it. Wonder if this reflects fads in different specialties. As I said before, I thought there was a new renaissance in the estrogens/depression work. joan…@rain.org (Joan Livingston) wrote:

According to anecdote, as well as studies. I am just repeating what a MD psychiatrist said yesterday in a course on depression for nurses CEU and general public. That they are finding it does not manage cases of depression as well as originally thought.

Hmm – originally thought when? If in the ’50’s, that’s one thing, if in the ’80’s another. The ’80’s seemed to be when the most denial of a connection was being voiced – IMO. Now this

could well mean the more severe cases of depression rather than milder ones. He did say that he felt menopausal depression was one of the more easily treatable depression so since estrogen is a recognized euphoric for some reasons not yet identified biochemically

he doesn’t go at least part way with the serotinin connection?

with any precision, estrogen may be adequate for some women, if they want this approach.

Very interesting!! Now why can’t I find a doc like this!! He’s in California? What’s his name? I really would like to know. Thanks! snip

I guess my only caution is that if one has serious depression -and symptoms, according to this course, go well beyond just feeling blue or a little sad, then it may be more appropriate to treat it with the modalities specifically researched in psychotherapy and psychologically specific medications for depression.

I think we’ve run around this before – my sense is that the antidepressants don’t work as well *for me* and have too many strange side-effects. With *adequate* estrogens I feel fine – don’t need the antidepressants, don’t have diarrhea, blurred vision, muscle cramping (except for the Premarin leg cramps and who’s doing Premarin now anyway?), weird tastes in my mouth, odd sleep cycles, etc. Works great! But of course we’re talking about the *source* of the problem – there are depressions where the antidepressants are indicated. Interesting that the MD was acknowledging this. Who is he? Thanks again, dn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Joan

Response:

my thanks to those of you who responded to my posts about surgical hysterectomy and HRT. Thanks also for the site links provided. I appreciate the time taken to respond and found the information useful. Since the GYNO removed everything (total recondition as my husband puts it – good for another 100,000 miles) I will probably need to do something about the hormone stuff (no ovaries left), but prefer to go the natural route if at all possible. Again, my thanks to you all. Peace to you all this holiday season, Vampyra web: http://www.vampyra.com web: http://www.bytesbydesign.net —————————- I have seen the truth and it makes absolutely no sense. ———————————-

Response:

Vampyra <vampyra-by…@home.com

wrote in message

news:RSaa4.14574$Px5.292832@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com…

my thanks to those of you who responded to my posts about surgical hysterectomy and HRT. Thanks also for the site links provided. I appreciate the time taken to respond and found the information useful. Since the GYNO removed everything (total recondition as my husband puts it – good for another 100,000 miles) I will probably need to do something about the hormone stuff (no ovaries left), but prefer to go the natural route if at all possible.

Vampyra, Not to be contrary or try to stir up trouble, but a genuine question here. What exactly do you mean by "go the natural route"?? Three years ago when I had surgical menopause, "natural" meant the estradiol patch. Now it can mean any number of things –including the ingestion of soy and fennel seed. If you think about it, there is nothing "natural" at all about our physical situation after surgery, or about whatever we choose to supplement ourselves with. I wish you well, Kalli – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Again, my thanks to you all. Peace to you all this holiday season, Vampyra web: http://www.vampyra.com web: http://www.bytesbydesign.net —————————- I have seen the truth and it makes absolutely no sense. ———————————-

Response:

Kalli: natural as in "homeopathic" and/or herbal medicines as opposed to synthetic/chemical type drugs. I know there are herbal/plant estrogens available that can be as effective as the MD prescribed types, ie Premarin, etc and I prefer to avoid those if at all possible. Vampyra "Kalli" <kalli…@worldnet.att.net

wrote in message

Response:

On Wed, 29 Dec 1999 01:58:21 GMT, "Vampyra" <vampyra-by…@home.com

wrote:

Kalli: natural as in "homeopathic" and/or herbal medicines as opposed to synthetic/chemical type drugs. I know there are herbal/plant estrogens available that can be as effective as the MD prescribed types, ie Premarin, etc and I prefer to avoid those if at all possible. Vampyra

You need to do some more research. The efficacy of phytoestrogens and other herbals remains to be shown. Homeopathy is a scam. So-called "natural" estrogens like forms of estradiol and estriol and natural progesterone like promterium are *prescription* drugs which have been synthesized in a lab from plant sources. Given your history of widespread endometriosis you might wish to avoid estrogen of any kind for a time. Terri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

"Kalli" <kalli…@worldnet.att.net wrote in message news:84bj30$dit$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net… | Vampyra, Not to be contrary or try to stir up trouble, but a genuine | question here. What exactly do you mean by "go the natural route"?? | | | I wish you well, | Kalli |

Response:

Hi, I’m new at all this posting/discussing etc. menopause. However I’m having a very bad time with the change. I’ve been on the HRT for 6 yrs now and can’t seem to find any other comfortable alternative. I was always thin, happy, an active. My weight has ballooned to 45 lbs+ causing a painful foot condition called plantar faciaitis. I used to walk 5 mi daily can’t do that with the foot problem, it can only resolve itself,but that’s unlikely when I’m on my feet constantly at work. My Dr. doesn’t really seem to care. I’ve been depressed with the bloating and have no desire to join my friends in any activities. I want to say thank you to Gina Marie for the previous post. Everyone has different theories on herbs vs. HRT, when you feel desperate I guess we try anything. I have found these postings most interesting and can’t drag myself away. I finally feel like there are others out there like me hot,sweaty,and depressed searching for that "new wonderful woman" feeling we’re supposed to have when we start this new passage in our lives.

Response:

On Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:06:53 -0500 (EST), Wite-D…@webtv.net (Snookie) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hi, I’m new at all this posting/discussing etc. menopause. However I’m having a very bad time with the change. I’ve been on the HRT for 6 yrs now and can’t seem to find any other comfortable alternative. I was always thin, happy, an active. My weight has ballooned to 45 lbs+ causing a painful foot condition called plantar faciaitis. I used to walk 5 mi daily can’t do that with the foot problem, it can only resolve itself,but that’s unlikely when I’m on my feet constantly at work. My Dr. doesn’t really seem to care. I’ve been depressed with the bloating and have no desire to join my friends in any activities. I want to say thank you to Gina Marie for the previous post. Everyone has different theories on herbs vs. HRT, when you feel desperate I guess we try anything. I have found these postings most interesting and can’t drag myself away. I finally feel like there are others out there like me hot,sweaty,and depressed searching for that "new wonderful woman" feeling we’re supposed to have when we start this new passage in our lives.

Many women find that detoxifying from hormones takes a very long time. I only took prempro for 6 weeks, and it took my body almost a year to recover from it. The simplistic assumption that taking hormones will allow the process of menopause to continue while it relieves uncomfortable symptoms is not borne out by the experience of many women. It seems that hormone use, especially in the perimenopausal period, disrupts the process for many women and may postpone the symptoms but once you stop the pills the symptoms come back, sometimes with a vengeance. Some drug companies are now recognizing this in their ads, with the statement that symptoms "may return when the drug is stopped." How old are you and at what point in your menopausal journey did you start taking hormones? Terri

Response:

Elleste Duet is a monthly bleed estradiol/progesterone script by Searle Pharmacuetical. Elleste Solo is strickly progesterone for women who had a hyterectomy. In article <84hr6v$jq…@news5.svr.pol.co.uk

,

"john close" <j…@closej.freeserve.co.uk

wrote:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hi. I am 49 years old and am just starting showing all the classical

menopause

symptoms. I had a really heavy bleed and my blood count went so low I

almost

had to have a transfusion.This really frightened me and I now get

really

anxious every time I bleed. My Doctor tries to convince me to go on

HRT, but

I do not like the thought of taking pills every day for goodness knows

how

long. The pills I have been perscribed are called Elleste Duet, does anyone

have

any information about these or in fact any helpful observations about

the

menopause. Regards, Yvonne. weddi…@closej.freeserve.co.uk

— Brenda Moran, Managing Editor, The GameMasterOnline http://www.GameMasterOnline.com The Best Source of Gaming Info & it’s FREE! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

john close wrote in message <84hr6v$jq…@news5.svr.pol.co.uk

… Hi. I am 49 years old and am just starting showing all the classical menopause symptoms. I had a really heavy bleed and my blood count went so low I

almost

had to have a transfusion.

Did this happen from just one session of bleeding? How low was your blood count? And what deteremined that you would need a transfusion. This sounds extremely serious ….and unusual. This goes well beyond "just menopause." I hope your doctor is giving you a very thorough diagnositc work-up. Also there are reports that alcohol use during one’s periods can trigger a flood …but not to level of needing a transfusion. What about other areas of stress, helplessness, hopelessness that may also be going on in your life now or in the recent past? Do you have problems with your gums spontaneously bleeding too? Lots of questions here, but this is how we learn together. No need to answer them in public but you may want to discuss them with your MD, and watch any alcohol use during this time. J This really frightened me and I now get really – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

anxious every time I bleed. My Doctor tries to convince me to go on HRT,

but

I do not like the thought of taking pills every day for goodness knows how long. The pills I have been perscribed are called Elleste Duet, does anyone have any information about these or in fact any helpful observations about the menopause. Regards, Yvonne. weddi…@closej.freeserve.co.uk

Response:

Hi. I am 49 years old and am just starting showing all the classical menopause symptoms. I had a really heavy bleed and my blood count went so low I almost had to have a transfusion.This really frightened me and I now get really anxious every time I bleed. My Doctor tries to convince me to go on HRT, but I do not like the thought of taking pills every day for goodness knows how long. The pills I have been perscribed are called Elleste Duet, does anyone have any information about these or in fact any helpful observations about the menopause. Regards, Yvonne. weddi…@closej.freeserve.co.uk

Response:

Yvonne wrote:

[snip story of scary heavy bleed]

The pills I have been perscribed are called Elleste Duet, does anyone have any information about these or in fact any helpful observations about the menopause.

Hi, Yvonne, and welcome to alt.support.menopause. A number of us have had the scary bleeding. I have a personal history at the first URL on my signature file, and there’s more information on Menopause & Beyond. I don’t know what Elleste Duet is, but it sounds like a combination estrogen/progesterone pill to me. Regards, Laura Blanchard lblanch…@aol.com http://members.aol.com/lblanch000/ http://members.tripod.com/menopause/ (Land o’Links –click the cormorant for Menopause & Beyond)

Response:

Karen Kay wrote:

Lblanch000 <lblanch…@aol.com wrote: Oy. So far, I’ve kept all my sites banner-free, and I hope to keep it that way. Although we do, every now and again, toy with the idea of setting up an associates program with Amazon. Please, please, please, please, please don’t do this. — Karen

Why not? I’ve done it. It hasn’t hurt me any. I’m certainly not getting rich, but it hasn’t been a problem… …geminiwalker — To learn more about me, go to http://home.earthlink.net/~chuard

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -droz…@home.com wrote:

On 30 Dec 1999 19:19:29 GMT, lblanch…@aol.com (Lblanch000) wrote: Karen, I understand your position. In this case, though, the small independent bookdealer we’d be undercutting is our own sales office, staffed by overextended volunteers who would dearly love to quit and keep packing those boxes out of a weary sense of loyalty. Much easier to let Amazon do the work for us and just collect a cut. It’s not, repeat *not* in competition with a local bookseller. Just us, and we’d like to be out of the retail business. Regards, Laura Blanchard lblanch…@aol.com http://members.aol.com/lblanch000/ http://members.tripod.com/menopause/ (Land o’Links –click the cormorant for Menopause & Beyond) Go over to amazon and look up some of your favourite books. Take a look at the books selected as " people who read this also read…." They haven’t a clue and don’t care how they promote the books as long as they sell. So it depends on how you value the reputation of your product. JMO. Kathryn droz…@home.com

I like that feature. It has led me on some fascinating journeys to discover similar authors and books that take me just a little bit further with where I am going with my reading and research… …geminiwalker — To learn more about me, go to http://home.earthlink.net/~chuard

Response:

On 30 Dec 1999 19:19:29 GMT, lblanch…@aol.com (Lblanch000) wrote:

Karen, I understand your position. In this case, though, the small independent bookdealer we’d be undercutting is our own sales office, staffed by overextended volunteers who would dearly love to quit and keep packing those boxes out of a weary sense of loyalty. Much easier to let Amazon do the work for us and just collect a cut. It’s not, repeat *not* in competition with a local bookseller. Just us, and we’d like to be out of the retail business. Regards, Laura Blanchard lblanch…@aol.com http://members.aol.com/lblanch000/ http://members.tripod.com/menopause/ (Land o’Links –click the cormorant for Menopause & Beyond)

Go over to amazon and look up some of your favourite books. Take a look at the books selected as " people who read this also read…." They haven’t a clue and don’t care how they promote the books as long as they sell. So it depends on how you value the reputation of your product. JMO. Kathryn droz…@home.com

Response:

I’m following my own post because I don’t want to spread a misconception. When I wrote:

Although we do, every now and again, toy with the idea of setting up an associates program with Amazon.

I was *not* thinking of Land o’Links, but of another site I maintain for a nonprofit. Regards, Laura Blanchard lblanch…@aol.com http://members.aol.com/lblanch000/ http://members.tripod.com/menopause/ (Land o’Links –click the cormorant for Menopause & Beyond)

Response:

I wrote, re another nonprofit site I manage, and Karen responds:

Lblanch000 <lblanch…@aol.com wrote: Oy. So far, I’ve kept all my sites banner-free, and I hope to keep it that way. Although we do, every now and again, toy with the idea of setting up an associates program with Amazon. Please, please, please, please, please don’t do this.

Karen, I understand your position. In this case, though, the small independent bookdealer we’d be undercutting is our own sales office, staffed by overextended volunteers who would dearly love to quit and keep packing those boxes out of a weary sense of loyalty. Much easier to let Amazon do the work for us and just collect a cut. It’s not, repeat *not* in competition with a local bookseller. Just us, and we’d like to be out of the retail business. Regards, Laura Blanchard lblanch…@aol.com http://members.aol.com/lblanch000/ http://members.tripod.com/menopause/ (Land o’Links –click the cormorant for Menopause & Beyond)

Response:

On Thu, 30 Dec 1999 01:11:50 GMT, vl-hb…@erols.com (Terri) wrote:

Chinese herbalists are not homeopaths. Chinese herbs (or any other kind) may well contain active ingredients which may indeed have an effect on various health problems.

…not necessarily the expected ones either… Extract from http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/alt/china_warn.htm Warning: Chinese Medicinal Formulas There are many different brands of Chinese medicinal formulas and, as with medicinal herbs, care should be taken with purchasing. Incorrectly labeled products and/or the presence of contaminants, adulterations, or substitutions have all been reported in conjunction with Chinese medicinal formulas. Contaminants such as heavy metals and/or substitutions with pharmaceutical drugs (over the counter and prescription) are a serious health hazard.

Response:

MARIE10502 wrote:

as far as menopause or other *non treatening* conditions, herbalists back then, and still are using ancient therapy that has worked for years.

But are they good for someone with endometriosis? Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ

Response:

Kathryn says:

Is menopause information an industry or what? Let’s develop an asm non profit society and split any proceeds. How many bannars will fit on the Land O’Links Laura?

Oy. So far, I’ve kept all my sites banner-free, and I hope to keep it that way. Although we do, every now and again, toy with the idea of setting up an associates program with Amazon. Regards, Laura Blanchard lblanch…@aol.com http://members.aol.com/lblanch000/ http://members.tripod.com/menopause/ (Land o’Links –click the cormorant for Menopause & Beyond)

Response:

On 29 Dec 1999 15:44:50 GMT, marie10…@aol.com (MARIE10502) wrote:

Good luck to you, and remember, listen to your body

Also remember that your brain is part of your body;-) Tishy

Response:

On 29 Dec 1999 15:44:50 GMT, marie10…@aol.com (MARIE10502) wrote:

The truth be known, I would like to avoid any kind of HRT if possible. Thanks for the tip Terri… will do some more research. Vampyra, Do what you think is best for "you" Terri calling homepathy a scam is her opinion, and the opinion of some doctors. Obviously not the opinion of homepathic doctors

Ever known a scammer who was willing to admit that s/he was perpetrating a scam? Many homeopaths actually believe that their therapy provides a benefit to the patient. That doesn’t make it true either. Over and over, scientific studies show that homeopathy is worthless. That’s good enough for me. Of course it may have a placebo effect, but one can probably get that for a lot less money and without the middleman.

or chinese herbalists.

Chinese herbalists are not homeopaths. Chinese herbs (or any other kind) may well contain active ingredients which may indeed have an effect on various health problems.

Whom have gained much reconizition and respect over the past years. I’ve researched till I’m blue in the face and you know what? I find good arguments to back both sides up. As far as scientific studies, only a few have been done on the pharmaceutical side and the jury is still out on that! Not enough information on either side, scientifically, is available to support one side or the other. bottom line is, it’s your body. Do what your intuition tells you to do.

Intuition is not the opposite of intelligence. Your brain is your most important resource in deciding what’s good for you. Terri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Problem today is women don’t listen to our own unique intuition anymore, instead we rely on doctors who know nothing more than what they learn in out dated text books. The good ones learn from their patients. My advice to you would be if you do choose natural, (herbs etc) go to a professional. Like a homepathcih doctor. Remember, all drugs were derived from some natural component to begin with. Like plants and herbs. Then formulated so that they could be patented. Herbs are unregulated drugs. Go to a professional who has knowledge in the use of them. Here is an address for you to check out if you are truly interested in alternative treatments. American Menopause Foundation, Inc. operates a national network of support groups that deal with alternative treatments, among other issues. for information on a group in your area, or write the foundation at: Madison Square Station 350 Fifth Avenue; Suite 2822 New York, New York 10118 (212) 714-2398 You can also search the web for more information on alternative medicines. I hear there are some very good chinese herbalist/accupucture doctors around. Please don’t rule out conventional treatment either. You did say you had your ovaries removed. This may call for a more stronger, pharmaceutical drug to replace the hormones your body is no longer making. Here is another resource for you, it has a more conventional, as well as holistic and alternative approach to HRT. The North American Menopause Society [NAMS] offers a mainstream perspective on menopause treatment, with lists of suggested readings and physicians in your area specializing in menopause. Write: Post Office Box 94527 Cleveland, OH 44101 OR: University Hospital of Cleveland 11100 Euclid Ave. Cleveland OH 44106 (216) 844-8748 Fax: (216) 844-8708 E-mail NAMS Good luck to you, and remember, listen to your body. Not what others tell you. Gina Marie

Response:

MARIE10502 wrote:

(snip)

bottom line is, it’s your body. Do what your intuition tells you to do.

While this is not bad advice, I’d modify it, personally, to say: Do your homework, read up on *objective* sources (i.e., not the people who sell the product or service), and then follow your instincts. Intuition is a fine thing – but so is information. I firmly believe in taking responsibility for my own health care, but I also believe in using that responsbility wisely. Self-education can be a chore — there’s so much conflicting information out there — but it’s not an impossible one. As an aside: I was thinking just last night of the argument, often made for some "natural" treatments, that goes along the lines of "it’s an ancient therapy, known for thousands of years." My question is this: Do we have any evidence that people were actually *healthier* thousands of years ago? Everything I’ve seen says they died younger and succumbed to a lot of diseases we consider minor today. Regards, –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

On 29 Dec 1999 15:44:50 GMT, marie10…@aol.com (MARIE10502) wrote:

The truth be known, I would like to avoid any kind of HRT if possible. Thanks for the tip Terri… will do some more research. Vampyra, Do what you think is best for "you" Terri calling homepathy a scam is her opinion, and the opinion of some doctors. Obviously not the opinion of homepathic doctors or chinese herbalists.

Hmmm, to my knowledge Chinese herbology and homeopathy are two distinct disciplines. You recommend getting professional advice before using herbs, I agree, but make sure you are in the right arena first IMO.

Here is an address for you to check out if you are truly interested in alternative treatments. American Menopause Foundation, Inc. operates a national network of support groups that deal with alternative treatments, among other issues. for information on a group in your area, or write the foundation at: Madison Square Station 350 Fifth Avenue; Suite 2822 New York, New York 10118 (212) 714-2398

Or better still look at this award winning website: http://www.altmedicine.com Can you tell me just where you heard about the American Menopause Foundation Marie? I am curious. I just looked in Appendix I of Susan Love’s Hormone book and see lists of places to get information about accupuncture, naturopathy, homeopathy, herbology and more but no mention of the above foundation. Never mind, I just did a websearch. This foundation is not more nor less alternative than NAMS. Much the same in fact. For a ABC Good Morning America transcript with Marie Lugano the founder and president of the AMF on perimenopause see: http://www.abcnews.de/onair/GoodMorningAmerica/gma990303_MarieLugano_… Is menopause information an industry or what? Let’s develop an asm non profit society and split any proceeds. How many bannars will fit on the Land O’Links Laura?

You can also search the web for more information on alternative medicines. I hear there are some very good chinese herbalist/accupucture doctors around.

Yes and I doubt they dispense your typical HFS alternative therapies either, at least the good ones. For a list in BC see: http://www.acupuncture.com/Referrals/BC.htm You might read the links on Tishy’s webpage how to evaluate websites. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Please don’t rule out conventional treatment either. You did say you had your ovaries removed. This may call for a more stronger, pharmaceutical drug to replace the hormones your body is no longer making. Here is another resource for you, it has a more conventional, as well as holistic and alternative approach to HRT. The North American Menopause Society [NAMS] offers a mainstream perspective on menopause treatment, with lists of suggested readings and physicians in your area specializing in menopause. Write: Post Office Box 94527 Cleveland, OH 44101 OR: University Hospital of Cleveland 11100 Euclid Ave. Cleveland OH 44106 (216) 844-8748 Fax: (216) 844-8708 E-mail NAMS Good luck to you, and remember, listen to your body. Not what others tell you. Gina Marie

I will not stop handing out information Gina, we all have to decide what makes sense and what does not make sense. Kathryn droz…@home.com

Response:

My question is this: Do we have any evidence that people were actually *healthier* thousands of years ago? Everything I’ve seen says they died younger and succumbed to a lot of diseases we consider minor today.

This is true. And this is a subject I know something about. People died earlier back then because of infections, bacteria, unsanitary conditions, lack of medical surgical knowledge and poor nutrition in a lot of cases. We’ve had over the years the polio vacacine, TB, measles, influenze and other vacines discovered to prevent many of the ailments that killed people in the past. as far as menopause or other *non treatening* conditions, herbalists back then, and still are using ancient therapy that has worked for years. Gina Marie

Response:

The truth be known, I would like to avoid any kind of HRT if possible. Thanks for the tip Terri… will do some more research. "Terri" <vl-hb…@erols.com

wrote in message

news:386a762f.293783605@news.erols.com… | On Wed, 29 Dec 1999 01:58:21 GMT, "Vampyra" <vampyra-by…@home.com

| wrote:

| |

Kalli: natural as in "homeopathic" and/or herbal medicines

|

as opposed to synthetic/chemical type drugs. I know there

|

are herbal/plant estrogens available that can be as effective

|

as the MD prescribed types, ie Premarin, etc and I prefer

|

to avoid those if at all possible.

|

|

Vampyra

| | | You need to do some more research. The efficacy of phytoestrogens and | other herbals remains to be shown. Homeopathy is a scam. So-called | "natural" estrogens like forms of estradiol and estriol and natural | progesterone like promterium are *prescription* drugs which have been | synthesized in a lab from plant sources. Given your history of | widespread endometriosis you might wish to avoid estrogen of any kind | for a time. | | Terri | |

| >"Kalli" <kalli…@worldnet.att.net

wrote in message

|

news:84bj30$dit$1@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net…

|

| Vampyra, Not to be contrary or try to stir up trouble, but a genuine

|

| question here. What exactly do you mean by "go the natural route"??

|

|

|

| | I wish you well,

|

| Kalli

|

|

|

|

Response:

The truth be known, I would like to avoid any kind of HRT if possible. Thanks for the tip Terri… will do some more research.

Vampyra, Do what you think is best for "you" Terri calling homepathy a scam is her opinion, and the opinion of some doctors. Obviously not the opinion of homepathic doctors or chinese herbalists. Whom have gained much reconizition and respect over the past years. I’ve researched till I’m blue in the face and you know what? I find good arguments to back both sides up. As far as scientific studies, only a few have been done on the pharmaceutical side and the jury is still out on that! Not enough information on either side, scientifically, is available to support one side or the other. bottom line is, it’s your body. Do what your intuition tells you to do. Problem today is women don’t listen to our own unique intuition anymore, instead we rely on doctors who know nothing more than what they learn in out dated text books. The good ones learn from their patients. My advice to you would be if you do choose natural, (herbs etc) go to a professional. Like a homepathcih doctor. Remember, all drugs were derived from some natural component to begin with. Like plants and herbs. Then formulated so that they could be patented. Herbs are unregulated drugs. Go to a professional who has knowledge in the use of them. Here is an address for you to check out if you are truly interested in alternative treatments. American Menopause Foundation, Inc. operates a national network of support groups that deal with alternative treatments, among other issues. for information on a group in your area, or write the foundation at: Madison Square Station 350 Fifth Avenue; Suite 2822 New York, New York 10118 (212) 714-2398 You can also search the web for more information on alternative medicines. I hear there are some very good chinese herbalist/accupucture doctors around. Please don’t rule out conventional treatment either. You did say you had your ovaries removed. This may call for a more stronger, pharmaceutical drug to replace the hormones your body is no longer making. Here is another resource for you, it has a more conventional, as well as holistic and alternative approach to HRT. The North American Menopause Society [NAMS] offers a mainstream perspective on menopause treatment, with lists of suggested readings and physicians in your area specializing in menopause. Write: Post Office Box 94527 Cleveland, OH 44101 OR: University Hospital of Cleveland 11100 Euclid Ave. Cleveland OH 44106 (216) 844-8748 Fax: (216) 844-8708 E-mail NAMS Good luck to you, and remember, listen to your body. Not what others tell you. Gina Marie

Response:

I’ve been reading these posts for the last couple of weeks, since I found out that I was perimenopausal. My symptoms have been most psychological–mood swings, palpitations, anxiety, sleep problems. When I had my hormones checked, my FSH level was 42. My doctor put me on the standard HRT regimen of .65 (?)Premarin for 25 days and .5 (Provera) for 12 days. I’ve been taking the Premarin and will start the Provera in a couple of days. Most of the people of this group seem to be taking natural stuff, such as this wild yam. Has anyone just been on the ordinary regime and had any response? Preferably good? This is just the pits. I thought meno would just be a cessation of periods and some uncomfortable warm feelings. I wasn’t prepared for this emotional turmoil. And I’ve read that the Provera can cause more unpleasant symptoms. What a drag. Millie

Response:

Big DUH!!! What I meant to say was I don’t know why *Provera* was prescribed for me when I was still having periods. The Premarin was wonderful when I first started it. I was really high from the relief! It was great. Yeah, I’m with you on this, Karen! Now when you mention that you up your estrogen when you are using (larger amounts?) the progesterone, it sounds to me like you’re copying what are bodies do normally. When I got my Premarin the nurse practioner sort of whispered to me that I should experiment with the amounts a bit over the course of the month – said getting exactly the same amount of estrogens daily across the month wasn’t "natural". Hmm. I wonder if there’s a bit of this cycling even after periods are gone. I haven’t heard about it. dn (posted and e-mailed) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ka…@wordwrite.com wrote:

Della Noche (dno…@wco.com) wrote: : Hi! Are you still having periods? I took Provera for one 10 day set but : as I am still having periods I figured I didn’t need it. The reason I started taking HRT was *because* I was having periods. They were making me sick. : I’m not really sure what Premarin’s for when given to women who are still : menstruating. To supplement your natural hormones! Honestly, Della! What peri means is that you’re still making some of your own hormones *but not enough*. In fact, I recently upped my estrogen by a tad (this is what I like most about using a gel!) for the days that I’m taking relatively large amounts of progesterone, and that counters the uckiness of the p. nicely. — Karen ka…@wordwrite.com

Response:

Hi! Are you still having periods? I took Provera for one 10 day set but as I am still having periods I figured I didn’t need it. Yam cream has made my periods much more like they were when I was in my 20’s – easier but longer. I’m not really sure what Premarin’s for when given to women who are still menstruating. Anybody? dn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ymk…@aol.com (YMKAHN) wrote:

I’ve been reading these posts for the last couple of weeks, since I found out that I was perimenopausal. My symptoms have been most psychological–mood swings, palpitations, anxiety, sleep problems. When I had my hormones checked, my FSH level was 42. My doctor put me on the standard HRT regimen of .65 (?)Premarin for 25 days and .5 (Provera) for 12 days. I’ve been taking the Premarin and will start the Provera in a couple of days. Most of the people of this group seem to be taking natural stuff, such as this wild yam. Has anyone just been on the ordinary regime and had any response? Preferably good? This is just the pits. I thought meno would just be a cessation of periods and some uncomfortable warm feelings. I wasn’t prepared for this emotional turmoil. And I’ve read that the Provera can cause more unpleasant symptoms. What a drag. Millie

Response:

In article <325dd09…@news.wclynx.com

, Della Noche <dno…@wco.com wrote: …. ymk…@aol.com (YMKAHN) wrote: I’ve been reading these posts for the last couple of weeks, since I found out that I was perimenopausal. My symptoms have been most psychological–mood swings, palpitations, anxiety, sleep problems. ….

I too am perimenopausal, and am having night sweats, heart problems, joint problems, sleep problems. I went on birth control pills in July, and that took care of the worst of the sleep problems for me, although by no means all of my sleep problems. And nothing else. As a result of the bc pills, I am getting synthetic estrogen and synthetic progesterone 3 out of every 4 weeks. I think it is the supplemental estrogen that is doing something for me, because I took several forms of progesterone before that did nothing for me. Although I have tried a bunch of things, I’m not on anything "natural"–these pills were the first thing that had any effect on my symptoms. Luckily I have had no breast cancer in my family. Cathe (Browman)

Response:

Hello, I’m a menopausal woman. This was determined about 5 months ago. I went on HRT right away. I’ve only had one real period in the past 5 months. I usually have maybe a drop of blood per day when I should be having a period. Is this to be expected? I’m from Ontario, Canada. My doctor went back to Egypt. There’re no doctors taking new patients at this time. I’d appreciate hearing from someone. Thanks. Teresa

Response:

Teresa wrote:

Hello, I’m a menopausal woman. This was determined about 5 months ago. I went on HRT right away. I’ve only had one real period in the past 5 months. I usually have maybe a drop of blood per day when I should be having a period. Is this to be expected? I’m from Ontario, Canada. My doctor went back to Egypt. There’re no doctors taking new patients at this time. I’d appreciate hearing from someone. Thanks.

Hi Teresa, Welcome to a.s.m. It sounds to me as if you are perimenopausal, not menopausal. Being menopausal means that you have gone 12 months without a period, perimenopause if the period of time leading up to meno. How did you determine you were menopausal? Most of the blood tests are not accurate, because your hormonal levels are constatly changing. There are some women here who have been told they are menopausal and gone on to have periods for a number of years. I am still in peri, last period in dec, day before my 60th birthday. Now I am getting the drop or spot of blood a day type of periods, still getting lots of pms. I find the pms the worst part now. As far as the HRT goes, I don’t think it is safe and have felt that way for many years. With all the studies that have come out recently, I am even more anti-hrt. I will leave the hrt discussion to others, who are better informed on it. sue

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

From: Sue and Kevin Mullen kjmul…@comcast.net Date: 8/18/03 8:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time Teresa wrote: Hello, I’m a menopausal woman. This was determined about 5 months ago. I went on HRT right away. I’ve only had one real period in the past 5 months. I usually have maybe a drop of blood per day when I should be having a period. Is this to be expected? I’m from Ontario, Canada. My doctor went back to Egypt. There’re no doctors taking new patients at this time. I’d appreciate hearing from someone. Thanks. Hi Teresa, Welcome to a.s.m. It sounds to me as if you are perimenopausal, not menopausal. Being menopausal means that you have gone 12 months without a period, perimenopause if the period of time leading up to meno. How did you determine you were menopausal? Most of the blood tests are not accurate, because your hormonal levels are constatly changing. There are some women here who have been told they are menopausal and gone on to have periods for a number of years. I am still in peri, last period in dec, day before my 60th birthday. Now I am getting the drop or spot of blood a day type of periods, still getting lots of pms. I find the pms the worst part now. As far as the HRT goes, I don’t think it is safe and have felt that way for many years. With all the studies that have come out recently, I am even more anti-hrt. I will leave the hrt discussion to others, who are better informed on it.

I’m with Sue on this issue. Outisde of helping sometimes to alleviate some of the hot flashes,HRT has been oversold by drug companies out to make a profit. HRT is most dangerous as far as risk of blood clots and heart attacks within the first year.Long term it increases the risk of breast cancer. What is your reasoning for taking HRT? Sharon…………A warm toll-house cookie is an experience not unlike a religious epiphany.

Response:

"Teresa" <art…@porchlight.ca

wrote in

news:FoXZa.385$CU1.23894@localhost:

Hello, I’m a menopausal woman. This was determined about 5 months ago. I went on HRT right away. I’ve only had one real period in the past 5 months. I usually have maybe a drop of blood per day when I should be having a period. Is this to be expected? I’m from Ontario, Canada. My doctor went back to Egypt. There’re no doctors taking new patients at this time. I’d appreciate hearing from someone. Thanks.

Hi, Teresa, welcome to asm. You don’t mention why you went on HRT. Were you having insufferable disruptions of your life from menopausal conditions? Or was it just another case of the doctor dictating to the patient? Unusual (not to say bizarre) periods are a hallmark of peri, but if you’re intact (no hysterectomy) you should be having periods, at least a few each year, while you’re on HRT. You really need to see a doctor about this, I think. Nothing you describe is particularly alarming, but you’re taking powerful drugs, and you are no longer under medical supervision. I can’t believe there is no doctor in Ontario who could see you; but then, I don’t know anything about the Canadian health system, except that it’s better than ours (USA) overall. HTH, Chakolate

Response:

Moses was a mystic. All of the prophets were mystics. Believe it or not, there are quite a few PEOPLE THAT THINK THEY ARE MYSTICS! Today, Karen, Tishy and of course soul sista Laura with her wild and wooley web page for ugly women think they are mystics, but are not. They think that mysticism is a belief that direct knowledge that HRT is a POISON This is not true! HRT is attainable through immediate intuition or insight with the help of a a well written prescription for your doctor. Off shore pharmacies differ from ordinary pharmacies, usually you don’t need a script to get the POISON.The mystic is one who has mystical (spiritual) experiences, such as eliminating Hot Flashes, mood swings, and other menopausal related symtons. She hears the voice of Lauren Hutton speak to her. Sometimes it seems to be a voice far outside herself, like the voice that spoke to Moses from the burning bush. More often it is a still,small voice that speaks within the heart and the well educated mind, USE HRT and feel better! This was brought to you by chits and giggles!

Response:

What is a mystic? This is not areal treatment for menopuase is it? I don’t understand this message. Sue

Response:

In article <20010714124529.08429.00004…@ng-cj1.news.cs.com

,

DimpledCheeks2 <dimpledchee…@cs.com

wrote: What is a mystic? This is not areal treatment for menopuase is it? I don’t understand this message.

Don’t worry about it, Sue. This news group has been visited recently by a weirdo who likes to use other people’s screen names to post inflammatory nonsense. It happens sometimes – one of the side effects of the freedom of the Internet is that even idiots can say what they want. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

This is the real FurPaw speaking. The message you’re referring to was written by an unwelcome visitor to this group, a person who pops into newsgroups and tries to stir up controversy, and then sits back and enjoys the furor. These visitors are usually teen-aged boys or people with an equivalent immature adolescent mentality. There’s nothing anyone can do about these folks except ignore their ‘presence’. A mystic is someone who believes that there is hidden meaning in life, and that through various spiritual practices, they can get in touch with the supernatural. I suppose that mysticism could be used in the treatment of problems arising in menopause, but it’s not a practice that is commonly discussed in this newsgroup. We’re more likely to discuss down-to-earth ways of coping, handling or treating these problems. He probably spoofed me with the mystic reference because I often recommend meditation as a means of reducing stress. FurPaw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -DimpledCheeks2 wrote:

What is a mystic? This is not areal treatment for menopuase is it? I don’t understand this message. Sue

Response:

#$&**#&@#!!#@@@ I failed to notice the email address that I was responding to! FurPaw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -FurPaw wrote:

This is the real FurPaw speaking. The message you’re referring to was written by an unwelcome visitor to this group, a person who pops into newsgroups and tries to stir up controversy, and then sits back and enjoys the furor. These visitors are usually teen-aged boys or people with an equivalent immature adolescent mentality. There’s nothing anyone can do about these folks except ignore their ‘presence’. A mystic is someone who believes that there is hidden meaning in life, and that through various spiritual practices, they can get in touch with the supernatural. I suppose that mysticism could be used in the treatment of problems arising in menopause, but it’s not a practice that is commonly discussed in this newsgroup. We’re more likely to discuss down-to-earth ways of coping, handling or treating these problems. He probably spoofed me with the mystic reference because I often recommend meditation as a means of reducing stress. FurPaw DimpledCheeks2 wrote: What is a mystic? This is not areal treatment for menopuase is it? I don’t understand this message. Sue

Response:

He probably spoofed me with the mystic reference because I often recommend meditation as a means of reducing stress. FurPaw

DONT GIVE YOURSELF SO MUCH CREDIT! THOSE WORDS WERE REARRANGED FROM ANOTHERS STUPID HYPERLINK. MOSES WAS A MYSTIC. RMTFLMFAOATSFDMB. HOT FLASH HATTIE

Response:

#$&**#&@#!!#@@@ I failed to notice the email address that I was responding to! FurPaw

You cant help the fact that Sue is not all there. you have a fowl mouth. !$@!$@!$@ ^*&^%$#$#@@@!!!! &&^%$##@@!!!!

Response:

HAbadzi (HABA…@worldbank.org) wrote:

: If you get the advice everyone in this group gave you to live without : estrogen, you will age very visibly, like your ancestors. If you need : to keep an appearance of youth and health, hormone supplementation is : necessary. This is simply not true. Even the hormone drug product inserts warn that estrogens will NOT keep you young, make you look young, etc. It’s not only a myth, but a dangerous one and difficult to eradicate since it is based on deeply inculcated cultural values. All I can say is that I take absolutely no hormones and am constantly asked what drugs I take to "look so young." I just do 2 things: eat a low fat diet and exercise daily (aerobic and weight lifting). -GG : I want to see research to DEALY or stop menopause, but for some reason : no one is interested! They prefer to let women lose their hormones and : then supplement them pharmaceutically!! Hummm, wonder why? Could it be the horrible side effects and cancer risk??? -G

Response:

On Wed, 06 May 1998 11:28:33 -0400, in alt.support.menopause you wrote:

If you get the advice everyone in this group gave you to live without estrogen, you will age very visibly, like your ancestors.

Unwarranted assumption and of no consequence to many.

If you need to keep an appearance of youth and health, hormone supplementation is necessary.

Further sweeping statement

But apparently

Apparent to whom? Does this validate the concept for everybody? "Apparently" holds within itself the possibility of this being false.

many benefits come from progesterone, not estrogen. Read "What your doctor may not tell you about menopause" by John R. Lee.

Also read reviews of this book accessible through http://www.oxford.net/~tishy/booktabl.html

Buy "natural" progesterone cream, (better pharmaceutically compounded throught a prescription at the International Women’s Pharmacy).

While consistently disagreeing with your views, I have never before believed you to be engaged in commercial advertising. As Karen has just said to somebody else, do not prescribe for others.

It apparently keeps bones at least in good shape.

Again "apparent". To read the views of those to whom it is *not* apparent, go to http://www.oxford.net/~tishy/mlm.html

And you may take tri-est with it, estriol-estrone-estrogen. It’s much safer than the premarin stuff on your breasts.

Repeated requests for back-up cites for this claim have never borne fruit. Can *you* justify it?

I want to see research to DEALY or stop menopause, but for some reason no one is interested! They prefer to let women lose their hormones and then supplement them pharmaceutically!!

For pharmaceutical companies to take this attitude (if in fact they do) is reasonable in the light of their profit motive. Most *women* do not prefer to supplement hormones. There are multiple invisible advantages to the postmenopausal state, which I am happy to trade for the cosmetic advantages of earlier life. Pat (Crone) http://www.oxford.net/~tishy includes unoffical asm website newbies entrance, men’s entrance, "soapbox", physical and nonphysical aspects of meno, how to evaluate info, links to other meno and medical sites, Men-o-Pause story., direct link to dejanews (current asm and filter)

Response:

On Wed, 6 May 1998 ardan…@inreach.com wrote:

Dear Bonnie, Estrogen in some form, in any form helps "Crashing Fatigue" right away, Within a week you will feel better and the hot flashes will stop. Brain fog takes awhile depending on your stress level.. You will feel better though never the same as before meno. This is what happened to me..you might discover new feelings for yourself. I’ve been doing this for 3 years… Good luck, Wendy Ardans

You can relate your own experience after a surgical menopause with an estrogen drug, but there is no way you can state so conclusively that this is the experience which all women post surgical menopause can expect with this drug. Or else you have simply been not listening to the many stories to the contrary right here on this newsgroup about the far less than successful experiences with this drug product. Read the FDA product label for estrogen drugs if you wish to experiment with them like Wendy for off-label uses. Read the growing literature that warns about uses over 5-10 years. Be sure to understand that estrogen -replacement- post surgically, is not interchangable with HRT with progesterone for those who still have a uterus. And by all means realize that the use of hormone drugs for the non-surgical menopause may make it troublesome when you decide to stop their use …60% of women have some sort of rebound symptoms. If some one wants a "pick-me-up" drug or energy booster, why not just ask your doctor to prescribe amphetamines. At least you are staying on label. Hormone drugs are not brain candy. shelly

Response:

HAbadzi (HABA…@worldbank.org) wrote: : If you get the advice everyone in this group gave you to live without : estrogen, you will age very visibly, like your ancestors. If you need : to keep an appearance of youth and health, hormone supplementation is : necessary.

This is a total crock. I look around me and I see my friends on hormone drugs with strokes, one breast, melanoma and one I don’t see at all because she died at age 46 …from a stroke after Premarin use. No one I know looks "younger" on hormone drugs. You are living in fantasy land. Take your drug scam elsewhere. shelly – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

This is simply not true. Even the hormone drug product inserts warn that estrogens will NOT keep you young, make you look young, etc. It’s not only a myth, but a dangerous one and difficult to eradicate since it is based on deeply inculcated cultural values. All I can say is that I take absolutely no hormones and am constantly asked what drugs I take to "look so young." I just do 2 things: eat a low fat diet and exercise daily (aerobic and weight lifting). -GG : I want to see research to DEALY or stop menopause, but for some reason : no one is interested! They prefer to let women lose their hormones and : then supplement them pharmaceutically!! Hummm, wonder why? Could it be the horrible side effects and cancer risk??? -G

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Pat Kight wrote:

In article <355081A1.1…@worldbank.org, HAbadzi <HABA…@worldbank.org wrote: If you get the advice everyone in this group gave you to live without estrogen, you will age very visibly, like your ancestors. If you need to keep an appearance of youth and health, hormone supplementation is necessary. *sigh* I do wish we lived in a culture that placed less value on "the appearance of youth and health" and more on actual staying healthy as we age. A healthy old body has different needs than a healthy young body. And a "visibly aged" face can be just as beautiful as a smooth, young face. More beautiful, if you consider the smiles and tears and laughter it took to carve those wrinkles and lines. (Sometimes I feel like the next person who tells me, "But you don’t *look* your age" is going to get smacked upside the head. I*do* sometimes tell them, "Well, that’s because I’m *fat*, so the wrinkles don’t show yet." That shuts ‘em up …) –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Hi Pat: I think you have a wonderful attitude to both your age and your weight. Sonja had a wonderful post some months ago about older faces being more interesting. I may have been more photogenic at 21 but I wouldn’t go back to the person I was then, not that she was so bad, but I am who I am now, and I like that person better. (I must admit, though, that due to good genes I do not have a lot of wrinkles, also I have kept my face out of the sun all my adult life, which must have helped.) RuthJ

Response:

Wow! You think what Shelly wrote was a "flame’? Valerie I don’t think that you have ever been flamed if you do. Much hotter blazes have flared here than those two questions and the following suggestions and statements from Shelly. I also wondered why you suggested HRT to a woman who posted specifically that she didn’t want estrogen suggestions. Shelly’s suggestion to to look to side effects of any supplements being taken was very constructive and did not involve estrogen. I think that she best answered Bonnie’s request for suggestions to help chronic fatigue. There are also many sources of support for CFS which might also have some suggestions. Bonnie, please try a search for newsgroups or lists with CFS and you may find more helps. This is very frustrating and I hope you find help soon. Sincerely, fiona – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -kir…@sympatico.ca wrote in message <354F328F.3…@sympatico.ca

… Shelly, If you had BOTHERED to read my WHOLE post, instead of just picking out a few choice words that seemed to suit your purpose, you would have been RESPONSIBLE enough to see that I told her that maybe after her retesting this is something she and her doctor might consider. I don’t consider myself irresponsible, I was just letting her know what worked for a friend. Maybe being irresponsible should include flamming someone without reading what was originally written. I’ve done my reading and researching and don’t need someone like you giving me advice. Maybe you are the one breaching the "Ethics" of the newsgroup. Try reading posts thoroughly, first, before coming down on someone! Valerie shelly wrote: On Mon, 4 May 1998 kir…@sympatico.ca wrote: Hi Bonnie, This happened to a friend of mine. She was totally wiped out for most

of

the day, even after 8 or 9 hours of good sleep at night. A low dose of estrogen seemed to work for her. Now she’s fine. Maybe after your retesting this may be something your doctor would consider. Valerie Bonnie wrote: I’m in mid menopause and because of a suspecious mammogram am unable

to take

HRT until retesting in 4 months. I run out of steam around 11 each

morning.

Chronic fatigue the rest of the day. Any suggestions? Valerie, are you really suggesting that a woman with a suspicious mammogram take an estrogen drug as an "energy booster"? Any consideration of the impact on the uterus or the fatal flaws of the recent "low estrogen" study? You may want to do some basic reading about the risks of taking hormone drugs and their appropriate and limited uses. A good place to start is "Dr Susan Love’s Hormone Book: Making Informed Choices about Menopause." I personally consider Valerie’s drug advice to Bonnie as irresponsible, unfortunate and against what I see are the ethics of this newsgroup. Others may differ. Anyone who is suffering from "chronic fatigue" need to first consider if the are taking a Vitamin E supplement, of any doseage, and to stop immediately and wait a few weeks to see if they do not get better. Crashing fatigue, along with hair loss and stomach cramps are common Vit

E

overdose signs. shelly

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bonnie wrote:

Gee guys, please don’t get in a fuss over me. I know you both were offering me advice that I asked for. I think meno can cause us all to get testy at times. Maybe I shouldn’t have used the word "suspecious" (which I spelled wrong). I had my first mammogram done a few weeks ago and because of my stupidity of not having had them done before, they have nothing to compare them to. They found 3 what-evers that they are calling "probably benign masses" after taking a closer look with a sonogram that I also had done after the mammogram picked them up. The specialist that talked with me advised that I should "probably avoid estrogen" until I was rechecked in 4 months. However, I’m now in full blown menopause and am having a horrible time of it. Hot flashes, brain fog, EXTREME fatigue. I own 2 businesses and have gotten to the point that I can’t keep these businesses running which I have to do. I spoke with ALL my doctors yesterday and they all have agreed to put me on the Fempatch since it is apparent that I cannot even function until the next sonogram is done. I have no breast cancer at all in my family. I will now go back a month earlier for another sonogram because of the Fempatch. I just wanted to give you the story and thank you BOTH for your concern for me.

Hi Bonnie: there was recently something in our local newspaper about a number of "false positives" in mammograms. I personally have had to have *every single* mammogram (that’s 6 so far, since age 40, I’m now 52) re-done because my weight has gone up and down so much and also I have my Mother’s fibrocystic breasts and am very hard to x-ray. The last mammogram I had done I had a very rude technician, and when I told her my left breast (the one with the wierd milk gland that gets sore before my period) was crooked in the machine she said "oh it’s ok" and took the film anyway. Back comes a film with a "suspicious mass". When I had the mammogram re-done by the head technician it came out fine. Hope that’s the case for you. (I can’t comment on the hormone issue because I don’t take them and know virtually nothing about them.) Hope you feel better soon. RuthJ

Response:

Hi Bonnie: there was recently something in our local newspaper about a number of "false positives" in mammograms. I personally have had to have *every single* mammogram (that’s 6 so far, since age 40, I’m now 52) re-done because my weight has gone up and down so much and also I have my Mother’s fibrocystic breasts and am very hard to x-ray.

Well its not false. I did the mammogram and they spotted the ‘what-evers’ then sent me to another part of the hospital where they did a very detailed and very long sonogram to get a better look. Then a specialist came in and spoke with me and had all the xrays – must have been at least 40 – and explain it all to me. She feels they are some type of benign cysts because there are 3 of them and she said usually cancerous tumors don’t come in 3’s. So for now they’ve given me the low dose Fempatch which I’ve had on for 24 hours and have felt no difference at all! I wonder how long it should take before I feel results. I don’t want to wear it if it isn’t going to help. This is just a temporary deal until I go back for another sonogram in mid July and see if the ‘what-evers’ have changed.

Response:

Bonnie <mi…@aol-nospam.com

wrote in article

<354F7CC3.58208…@qis.net

… blown menopause and am having a horrible time of it. Hot flashes, brain

fog,

EXTREME fatigue. I yesterday and they all have agreed to put me on the Fempatch since it is

Dear Bonnie, Estrogen in some form, in any form helps "Crashing Fatigue" right away, Within a week you will feel better and the hot flashes will stop. Brain fog takes awhile depending on your stress level.. You will feel better though never the same as before meno. This is what happened to me..you might discover new feelings for yourself. I’ve been doing this for 3 years… Good luck, Wendy Ardans

Response:

If you get the advice everyone in this group gave you to live without estrogen, you will age very visibly, like your ancestors. If you need to keep an appearance of youth and health, hormone supplementation is necessary. But apparently many benefits come from progesterone, not estrogen. Read "What your doctor may not tell you about menopause" by John R. Lee. Buy "natural" progesterone cream, (better pharmaceutically compounded throught a prescription at the International Women’s Pharmacy). It apparently keeps bones at least in good shape. And you may take tri-est with it, estriol-estrone-estrogen. It’s much safer than the premarin stuff on your breasts. I want to see research to DEALY or stop menopause, but for some reason no one is interested! They prefer to let women lose their hormones and then supplement them pharmaceutically!! The Strauser’s wrote:

I’m new to this group. Recently told that I’m post menopausal. Estrogen count is 23 according to blood tests. Doctor wants to fill me with estrogen. I’m reluctant so am exploring the options. Both parents died from cancer. I agree that menopause in itself is not an illness. (Tho I did appear to be crazy to some for the past 7 years.) Question is…without estrogen replacement….what am I supposed to be doing?

— The World Bank, 1818 H St. NW, Washington DC 20433, U.S.A. http://www.worldbank.org +1(202)477-1234

Response:

In article <355081A1.1…@worldbank.org

,

HAbadzi <HABA…@worldbank.org

wrote: If you get the advice everyone in this group gave you to live without estrogen, you will age very visibly, like your ancestors. If you need to keep an appearance of youth and health, hormone supplementation is necessary.

*sigh* I do wish we lived in a culture that placed less value on "the appearance of youth and health" and more on actual staying healthy as we age. A healthy old body has different needs than a healthy young body. And a "visibly aged" face can be just as beautiful as a smooth, young face. More beautiful, if you consider the smiles and tears and laughter it took to carve those wrinkles and lines. (Sometimes I feel like the next person who tells me, "But you don’t *look* your age" is going to get smacked upside the head. I*do* sometimes tell them, "Well, that’s because I’m *fat*, so the wrinkles don’t show yet." That shuts ‘em up …) –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

Gee guys, please don’t get in a fuss over me. I know you both were offering me advice that I asked for. I think meno can cause us all to get testy at times. Maybe I shouldn’t have used the word "suspecious" (which I spelled wrong). I had my first mammogram done a few weeks ago and because of my stupidity of not having had them done before, they have nothing to compare them to. They found 3 what-evers that they are calling "probably benign masses" after taking a closer look with a sonogram that I also had done after the mammogram picked them up. The specialist that talked with me advised that I should "probably avoid estrogen" until I was rechecked in 4 months. However, I’m now in full blown menopause and am having a horrible time of it. Hot flashes, brain fog, EXTREME fatigue. I own 2 businesses and have gotten to the point that I can’t keep these businesses running which I have to do. I spoke with ALL my doctors yesterday and they all have agreed to put me on the Fempatch since it is apparent that I cannot even function until the next sonogram is done. I have no breast cancer at all in my family. I will now go back a month earlier for another sonogram because of the Fempatch. I just wanted to give you the story and thank you BOTH for your concern for me.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bonnie wrote:

Gee guys, please don’t get in a fuss over me. I know you both were offering me advice that I asked for. I think meno can cause us all to get testy at times. Maybe I shouldn’t have used the word "suspecious" (which I spelled wrong). I had my first mammogram done a few weeks ago and because of my stupidity of not having had them done before, they have nothing to compare them to. They found 3 what-evers that they are calling "probably benign masses" after taking a closer look with a sonogram that I also had done after the mammogram picked them up. The specialist that talked with me advised that I should "probably avoid estrogen" until I was rechecked in 4 months.

Bonnie, pardon me for butting here – it’s your body and your decision. But it’s possible to have a false negative mammogram and/or sonogram. Estrogen may help your symptoms but it may not. It will increase the density of your breast tissue and make future mammograms harder to read meaning that your next mammogram may be very different from this one and may again be labelled suspicious. Is there any reason why these "masses" aren’t being biopsied to put your mind at ease?

However, I’m now in full blown menopause and am having a horrible time of it. Hot flashes, brain fog, EXTREME fatigue. I own 2 businesses and have gotten to the point that I can’t keep these businesses running which I have to do. I spoke with ALL my doctors yesterday and they all have agreed to put me on the Fempatch since it is apparent that I cannot even function until the next sonogram is done.

I hope you are also going to be given some kind of progestin or progesterone to protect your uterus from the effects of the estrogen? marcie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I have no breast cancer at all in my family. I will now go back a month earlier for another sonogram because of the Fempatch. I just wanted to give you the story and thank you BOTH for your concern for me.

Response:

Shelly, If you had BOTHERED to read my WHOLE post, instead of just picking out a few choice words that seemed to suit your purpose, you would have been RESPONSIBLE enough to see that I told her that maybe after her retesting this is something she and her doctor might consider. I don’t consider myself irresponsible, I was just letting her know what worked for a friend. Maybe being irresponsible should include flamming someone without reading what was originally written. I’ve done my reading and researching and don’t need someone like you giving me advice. Maybe you are the one breaching the "Ethics" of the newsgroup. Try reading posts thoroughly, first, before coming down on someone! Valerie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -shelly wrote:

On Mon, 4 May 1998 kir…@sympatico.ca wrote: Hi Bonnie, This happened to a friend of mine. She was totally wiped out for most of the day, even after 8 or 9 hours of good sleep at night. A low dose of estrogen seemed to work for her. Now she’s fine. Maybe after your retesting this may be something your doctor would consider. Valerie Bonnie wrote: I’m in mid menopause and because of a suspecious mammogram am unable to take HRT until retesting in 4 months. I run out of steam around 11 each morning. Chronic fatigue the rest of the day. Any suggestions? Valerie, are you really suggesting that a woman with a suspicious mammogram take an estrogen drug as an "energy booster"? Any consideration of the impact on the uterus or the fatal flaws of the recent "low estrogen" study? You may want to do some basic reading about the risks of taking hormone drugs and their appropriate and limited uses. A good place to start is "Dr Susan Love’s Hormone Book: Making Informed Choices about Menopause." I personally consider Valerie’s drug advice to Bonnie as irresponsible, unfortunate and against what I see are the ethics of this newsgroup. Others may differ. Anyone who is suffering from "chronic fatigue" need to first consider if the are taking a Vitamin E supplement, of any doseage, and to stop immediately and wait a few weeks to see if they do not get better. Crashing fatigue, along with hair loss and stomach cramps are common Vit E overdose signs. shelly

Response:

I have just recently started watching this newsgroup. I feel I went started menopause in my early 40’s. My doctor thought I was too young. The last 1-2 years has confirmed in my own mind that I have been in menopause. I agree with Shelly and Jackiej –in my own words – let nature run its course. It’s hard sometimes, but I really don’t believe drugs are the answer. I like Shelly’s comment — We didn’t try to drug away puberty or menstruation. I truly believe menopause is part of the human cycle. In today’s society, men (husbands in particular) are more aware about menopause and are much more supportive about it. There are times I would like to take something for it, but I know that it will run it’s course. I hope I can handle it and my family can help. There is more communication and awareness now between family and friends then when my Mother and women in her age bracket went through it. Good luck.

Response:

I’m new to this group. Recently told that I’m post menopausal. Estrogen count is 23 according to blood tests. Doctor wants to fill me with estrogen. I’m reluctant so am exploring the options. Both parents died from cancer. I agree that menopause in itself is not an illness. (Tho I did appear to be crazy to some for the past 7 years.) Question is…without estrogen replacement….what am I supposed to be doing?

Response:

The Strauser’s wrote:

I’m new to this group. Recently told that I’m post menopausal. Estrogen count is 23 according to blood tests. Doctor wants to fill me with estrogen. I’m reluctant so am exploring the options. Both parents died from cancer. I agree that menopause in itself is not an illness. (Tho I did appear to be crazy to some for the past 7 years.) Question is…without estrogen replacement….what am I supposed to be doing?

Eat a well-balanced diet containing about 45 gms of protein and get less than 30% of your calories from fat. Participate in moderate exercise, preferably both weight-bearing and aerobic. Keep your weight at a reasonable level and if you have diabetes or hypertension treat them appropriately. Don’t smoke. Keep your mind active through reading and learning. In a nutshell, all the same things you were doing before menopause, or if you weren’t doing them, now is a good time to start.

Response:

I’m in mid menopause and because of a suspecious mammogram am unable to take HRT until retesting in 4 months. I run out of steam around 11 each morning. Chronic fatigue the rest of the day. Any suggestions?

Response:

Hi Bonnie, This happened to a friend of mine. She was totally wiped out for most of the day, even after 8 or 9 hours of good sleep at night. A low dose of estrogen seemed to work for her. Now she’s fine. Maybe after your retesting this may be something your doctor would consider. Valerie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bonnie wrote:

I’m in mid menopause and because of a suspecious mammogram am unable to take HRT until retesting in 4 months. I run out of steam around 11 each morning. Chronic fatigue the rest of the day. Any suggestions?

Response:

You don’t say what your dosages are, but many women find Provera causes mood swings such as you describe; I am one of them, and even 2.5 mg a day was too much. I have quit all hrt now, and I am no longer depressed…Of course, this is just my own reaction– JackieJ h82w…@pacbell.net wrote:

Now I find out I’m in full – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

menopause, and the doc started me on hormones. Only been on for 5 days, but I am a mess. Crying big time, emotions all over the place. Anyone else experience this?

Response:

h82w…@pacbell.net wrote:

I have been in menopause for 2 years without knowing it – thought my dimished periods were from ovarian cysts. Now I find out I’m in full menopause, and the doc started me on hormones. Only been on for 5 days, but I am a mess. Crying big time, emotions all over the place. Anyone else experience this? I really have no friends going thru this, I’m in early menopause, and I need some support and questions answered. Can anyone help with some advice? Like, natural hormones, or synthetic? I know enough that I don’t want Premarin, but still, the stuff I’m taking can’t be much better. I’m on Ogen (estrogen) and Provera. Anybody know about these? What do most people take? Is there such a thing? This is really awful. If men went thru this, I think there would be a whole lot more information available. I am grateful for your help. – LL

I use to take Premarin and Proveara. I am now on Ogen only. I also take anti-hypertensives. Premarin is the most commonly estrogen replacement. Unfortnally it is manufactured from horse urine. Pre is for "pregant", marin is for Mare. Some people consider that "harveting" of the urine as "animinal abuse. You be the judge. Ogen is a plant derivative. Provera is synitized chemical analog of progestrone. CH3 groups have been added to the molecule backbone. What is the best? What you find works for you! When I started Premarin, I was have "mornining sickness" for 3 days and then it subsided. My emotions were "amplified" but I got use to them. In a few months I got back my sense of smell as well. Now days, don’t dare get between my and my hormones. Dani Richard

Response:

Suggesting estrogen drugs to a woman who has suspicious mammograms to use as an "energy booster" because it helped a friend, is irresponsible. shelly On Tue, 5 May 1998 kir…@sympatico.ca wrote:

Shelly, If you had BOTHERED to read my WHOLE post, instead of just picking out a few choice words that seemed to suit your purpose, you would have been RESPONSIBLE enough to see that I told her that maybe after her retesting this is something she and her doctor might consider.

shelly

Response:

On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 h82w…@pacbell.net wrote:

about these? What do most people take? Is there such a thing? This is really awful. If men went thru this, I think there would be a whole lot more information available. I am grateful for your help. – LL

Many of us are not taking anything at all and just riding the meno symptoms out. Menopause is an ancient passage and is self-limiting. It may take a while but this too will pass. And stress/angst can exacerbate it. Surgical menopause often needs medical intervention for the post surgical condition. And some non-surgical women find they simply can not live with some of the menopause signs and find medical intervention is appropriate for their individual situations. There is no one-size-fits-all. None. But luckily only one third of women have severe symptoms (including those who have had a surgical menopause which at one time was 65% of US women) . 2/3 of women apparently have only moderate or no meno symptoms. There is no well researched reason for any mild or asymptomatic woman to sign up for powerful and potentially dangerous artifical hormone drugs. We didn’t try to drug away puberty or menstruation. We lived quite nicely without estrogen and progesterone pre-puberty. Don’t get hooked into any unfounded medical meno myths about women universally "needing" drugs at this time in our lives. They are very controversial and badly tested. (And cheaply produced and heavily marketed, deceptively at that.) We will know more in the year 2008 when the very first objective testing of them will be completed. Everything else has been drivin by drug marketing forces so practically everything that are claimed about these drugs is commercially tainted. Read the origianal studies and you will see what I mean. Buyer beware. And be sure to watch out for all the miracle OTC drug testimonies you will get innundated with on the internet by multi-level-marketers selling primarily worthless "natural" progesterone placebo skin cremes and the mega supplement sellers. Again, buyer beware. Save your money for silk pajamas. You are in luck as in the past few years some excellent books, well researched and well-cited to the legitimate scientific literature, are available on the topic of meno and the drug industry’s attempt to court the baby-boomer demographics. See the website for some good suggestions: www.oxford.net/~tishy/ This is the premier Honor Code site for meno on the Health on the Net program which rates medical and health cites. It is excellent. Best advice if your doctor offers you drugs for this time in your life is to sit down and read line by line the FDA product insert for the suggested drug to see if this is really what you want to be putting in your body. I get labeled as "anti-drug" by many on this newsgroup. But I am really pro-informed consent. Know what you are putting into your very precious -and aging- body. Read widely and critically. Broaden your understanding of menopause well beyond the drug industry "deficiency" model, if your’s is a non-surgical menopause. And join the rest of us who are passing through this million year old adaptive passage without any drugs at all. But there is no reason not to look for comfort. Not at all. There is plenty of that to explore on this newsgroup and on the website. It can be rocky at times, but it can also be very revealing. Time to get into the best health habits you can for the rest of your life. And IMHO, these hormone drugs are not one of them. shelly

Response:

On Mon, 4 May 1998 kir…@sympatico.ca wrote:

Hi Bonnie, This happened to a friend of mine. She was totally wiped out for most of the day, even after 8 or 9 hours of good sleep at night. A low dose of estrogen seemed to work for her. Now she’s fine. Maybe after your retesting this may be something your doctor would consider. Valerie Bonnie wrote: I’m in mid menopause and because of a suspecious mammogram am unable to take HRT until retesting in 4 months. I run out of steam around 11 each morning. Chronic fatigue the rest of the day. Any suggestions?

Valerie, are you really suggesting that a woman with a suspicious mammogram take an estrogen drug as an "energy booster"? Any consideration of the impact on the uterus or the fatal flaws of the recent "low estrogen" study? You may want to do some basic reading about the risks of taking hormone drugs and their appropriate and limited uses. A good place to start is "Dr Susan Love’s Hormone Book: Making Informed Choices about Menopause." I personally consider Valerie’s drug advice to Bonnie as irresponsible, unfortunate and against what I see are the ethics of this newsgroup. Others may differ. Anyone who is suffering from "chronic fatigue" need to first consider if the are taking a Vitamin E supplement, of any doseage, and to stop immediately and wait a few weeks to see if they do not get better. Crashing fatigue, along with hair loss and stomach cramps are common Vit E overdose signs. shelly

Response:

I have been in menopause for 2 years without knowing it – thought my dimished periods were from ovarian cysts. Now I find out I’m in full menopause, and the doc started me on hormones. Only been on for 5 days, but I am a mess. Crying big time, emotions all over the place. Anyone else experience this? I really have no friends going thru this, I’m in early menopause, and I need some support and questions answered. Can anyone help with some advice? Like, natural hormones, or synthetic? I know enough that I don’t want Premarin, but still, the stuff I’m taking can’t be much better. I’m on Ogen (estrogen) and Provera. Anybody know about these? What do most people take? Is there such a thing? This is really awful. If men went thru this, I think there would be a whole lot more information available. I am grateful for your help. – LL

Response:

Chris Malcolm wrote:

Pat Kight <kig…@ucs.orst.edu writes: I’ve never bothered with makeup, moisturisers, etc., partly because the logic of trying to fix skin problems from the outside instead of the inside has always seemed silly to me, and partly because they make such a mess of my beard.

*splork* Um, yes, well, despite the unfortunate mental image, you do make a good point, Chris. I use moisturizers for the soothing factor – applied morning and night, they do reduce the itchiness. I’m also dubious about any "protective" factor; it seems to me that to really "protect" the skin from drying externally, one would have to apply something thick and gooey enough to really *seal* moisture into one’s skin. Which would be a Bad Idea even if you could do it; out skin is, in part, an organ of elimination and temperature control, and sealing it up would be unhealthy, to say the least. There’s absolutely no point buying expensive moisturizers, though, unless you have a lot of money to throw away and like the way they feel or smell. I just buy economy-sized bottles of whatever unscented store brand happens to be at hand. Tepid baths in Aveenobath or colloidal oatmeal can also be soothing. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

I’m 52 and had a hystorectomy before 30, leaving my ovaries. I’m having mild to strong hot flashes, usually daily. I can handle it. I’ve tried estrogen and progestrin maybe ten years ago, and hated it. I felt like I was on my period thirty days a month. Other problems I’m having are very dry skin (always) and wimpy hair (for a couple years now). I’m thinking could be related also to a sluggish thyroid. My question is do I really need hormone replacement therapy? Thanks, Toni

Response:

Toni Loyd wrote in message

<5260-387D9120…@storefull-216.iap.bryant.webtv.net

…

I’m 52 and had a hystorectomy before 30, leaving my ovaries. I’m having mild to strong hot flashes, usually daily. I can handle it. I’ve tried estrogen and progestrin maybe ten years ago, and hated it. I felt like I was on my period thirty days a month. Other problems I’m having are very dry skin (always) and wimpy hair (for a couple years now). I’m thinking could be related also to a sluggish thyroid. My question is do I really need hormone replacement therapy? Thanks, Toni There is little science to justify the use of HRT. And there is growing evidence of its dangers. If you are into drug experimentation, you may want to discuss this with your doctor. Usually a re-evaluation of your lifestyle habits and an understanding of the aging process is what serves most "well-women" best at this time of life. I hope you will visit the volunteer website for this newsgroup for more information in order to make the very best individual choice for yourself. The URL for this website is: www.oxford.net/~tishy/beyond.html BTW: Are you taking Vit E supplements? They have been associated with hairloss, along with crashing fatigue, stomach cramps and other side effect problems. Best wishes, J

Response:

Toni Loyd wrote:

I’m 52 and had a hystorectomy before 30, leaving my ovaries. I’m having mild to strong hot flashes, usually daily. I can handle it. I’ve tried estrogen and progestrin maybe ten years ago, and hated it. I felt like I was on my period thirty days a month. Other problems I’m having are very dry skin (always) and wimpy hair (for a couple years now). I’m thinking could be related also to a sluggish thyroid. My question is do I really need hormone replacement therapy?

If, as you say, you can handle it – then I think you’ve answered your own question. Despite the drug company ads and the efforts of some doctors to put us *all* on hormones for the rest of our lives, there’s no evidence that we all "need" the stuff. I figure I’m not sick, just menopausal – so why take medicine? By all means get your thyroid tested, but it’s entirely possible the dry skin and "wimpy" hair, alas, are simply part of aging. Drinking loads of water and using a good, inexpensive moisturizer (especially the unscented kind) may help with the former; a good hairdresser ought to be able to help you figure out how to to the best with what you’ve got. My skin has dried to the point where I itch all winter long. The above tactics do help, as does limiting my time in very hot showers (*pout* … I *love* hot showers!). I’ve also stopped wearing makeup almost entirely, because I found that even the creamier "moisturizing" foundations were causing my facial skin to flake and dry. It took some getting used to (I used to be the kind of person who wouldn’t go on a camping trip without mascara!) but I think I actually look better without it — for one thing, the makeup doesn’t collect in all those little lines and creases any more! Hope this helps; welcome to the newsgroup. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Barbara Russell wrote:

I am 49 years old and am perimenopausal. I began having some symptoms about 6 months ago, skipping periods occasionally and night sweats. Vitamin E took away the night sweats. I have never had a hot flash. In the past couple of months I have started getting periods almost nonstop. The periods last for approximately 10 days with only one week before they start up again. I tried the natural progesterone cream but it didn’t seem to help at all. About three weeks ago I started taking Prempro but I don’t think it’s helping at all. I know that it can take time for these drugs to work but I started taking it because of the frequent periods and because of extreme nervousness, sleepiness and anxiety. My period has just started up again after only one week since the last one and my nerves are shot. I called my Gyn and she suggested I take Xanax or Prozac. I was afraid of the Xanax because I’ve heard how addictive it is, so I opted for the Prozac. When I went to the Pharmacy to pick up the Prozac I was surprised to see that my prescription only had 25 pills and was non refillable. The literature I received with the Prozac said that it takes 4 weeks for this medication to become effective and the pharmacist also confirmed this. I am totally confused and disgusted at this point. I have a call into my Gyn but was told not to expect to hear from her until next Tuesday and today is Friday. I resisted taking HRT but finally had to give in order to keep my sanity. There has to be something better than this. Sorry to go on for so long but I guess I just needed to vent. Any feedback will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Barbara

Hi Barbara: Unfortunately, this sounds to me like a classic case of patient abuse. You have *menstrual* irregularities and are being given drugs which can affect your *mind*. This, in my opinion, is *wrong*. I have had depressions off and on for most of my adult life, and had a *terrible* reaction to Prozac. I believe it is an extremely dangerous drug and should be taken off the market. Just my opinion as a lay person, but my experience, lasting a total of two days, was that it sent my into a *RAGE*. Since then, I have accumulated a file of news clippings (not scientific studies) where incidents of violence were linked to Prozac. Very sadly, here in California, a young woman, who according to news reports was taking Prozac for depression, recently murdered her three daughters and tried to commit suicide. It appears the drug not only made her more depressed but it also made her violent. Since I had previously become more depressed taking Elavil, a much older drug, many years ago, I was smart enough to discontinue Prozac immediately. And give the "therapist" who illegally conned me into talking my then-doctor into prescribing it an hour long lecture on how evil she was. And file a complaint against her her. Unfortunately, the State of California did not act on my complaint, although I found out there were five others against her! The evil woman is still in business. I think you need to find a new doctor — preferably a woman of menopausal age who understands menstrual irregularities, as well as the mood swings and depressions that can accompany menopause. The nervousness, sleeplessness and anxiety you are experiencing are all symptoms which have been reported on this newsgroup, are probably natural menopausal occurrences, and the good news is that they will eventually pass. I have been having insomnia, which has been dragging me down, since November, and tried all kinds of herbs as well as prescription pills and all by itself the last few days it is gradually getting better. If your new doctor (and I hope you find a new doctor) still thinks you need help either sleeping or with anxiety, there are short-acting drugs you can take as needed (which is what I do: Ambien for sleep and Valium for anxiety). (I have no commercial connection to either of these drugs). While both of these drugs can be addictive if taken all the time, and you do build up a tolerance to them, if taken occasionally they both seem to work well for me. I also take Valium for migraines. Please forgive both the length and perhaps strong words of this post, but I am very concerned that you were prescribed Prozac, and I am also very concerned that your menstrual irregularities are not being addressed. You may be deficient in iron for bleeding that much, for example. The last year and a half or so my periods changed from five days to ten; a former co-worker, going through early menopause at about 39 or 40, had one month when she bled every day. One of the regular posters to this group has created a web site on menopause which may interest you: http://www.oxford.net/~tishy/asm.html Please post back and let us know how you are doing. RuthJ

Response:

Barbara Russell wrote in message <35253308.40661…@earthlink.net

… I am 49 years old and am perimenopausal. I began having some symptoms about 6 months ago, skipping periods occasionally and night sweats. Vitamin E took away the night sweats. I have never had a hot flash. In the past couple of months I have started getting periods almost nonstop. The periods last for approximately 10 days with only one week before they start up again. I tried the natural progesterone cream but it didn’t seem to help at all. About three weeks ago I started taking Prempro but I don’t think it’s helping at all. I know that it can take time for these drugs to work but I started taking it because of the frequent periods and because of extreme nervousness, sleepiness and anxiety. My period has just started up again after only one week since the last one and my nerves are shot.

Hi Barbara, Wow, it sounds like you are right at the peak when everything seems to be at its worst and you just can’t take another minute of anything or you’ll explode. Homemakerj has described this feeling and I think her theory is that this is when things have to start getting better. The nasty symptoms either start to go away or they shift gears and one set of them goes away to be replaced by another set. Sometimes Prempro or other HRT can help one through this time, but as you have found, it doesn’t always work. Your body is changing and there is nothing you can do about it, but get on through the passage. There is another side to the passage – an end to the tunnel you are in. We just can’t tell you how long it takes to get there. With Prempro, I think that the general advice is that it takes about 6 months for the periods to stop.

I called my Gyn and she suggested I take Xanax or Prozac. I was afraid of the Xanax because I’ve heard how addictive it is, so I opted for the Prozac. When I went to the Pharmacy to pick up the Prozac I was surprised to see that my prescription only had 25 pills and was non refillable. The literature I received with the Prozac said that it takes 4 weeks for this medication to become effective and the pharmacist also confirmed this. I am totally confused and disgusted at this point. I have a call into my Gyn but was told not to expect to hear from her until next Tuesday and today is Friday.

I don’t think that it’s unusual for a doctor to give a small prescription for the first time with this kind of drug. I don’t have experience with it, but isn’t it very expensive? It would be foolish for you to have a large supply of it and then maybe find that you can’t use it because of side effects or ineffectiveness. The doctor will want to hear from you about how this medication is affecting you, but there is no point in discussing it so early. Next week is soon enough for this kind of question. I’ll bet if you were having a bad reaction to a medication that a doctor would speak with you right away. IMO you need to calm yourself down and realize that you are doing the best you can to take care of yourself right now. You are going to be okay. Have you read any good general information books on menopause? Dr.Love’s Hormone Book is one that I keep nearby for a reference. You may be able to further help yourself by looking at your lifestyle habits and making any healthful changes needed – healthy diet, exercise, cut smoking, alcohol, sugar, salt, increase broccoli and cabbage, take your medicine, and try to feel better. You are not alone in this difficult passage. There are lots of others in front of you and soon you’ll be looking back at the newbies coming along where you have been. Hang in there kiddo! Things will get better. fiona – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I resisted taking HRT but finally had to give in order to keep my sanity. There has to be something better than this. Sorry to go on for so long but I guess I just needed to vent. Any feedback will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Barbara

Response:

I am 49 years old and am perimenopausal. I began having some symptoms about 6 months ago, skipping periods occasionally and night sweats. Vitamin E took away the night sweats. I have never had a hot flash. In the past couple of months I have started getting periods almost nonstop. The periods last for approximately 10 days with only one week before they start up again. I tried the natural progesterone cream but it didn’t seem to help at all. About three weeks ago I started taking Prempro but I don’t think it’s helping at all. I know that it can take time for these drugs to work but I started taking it because of the frequent periods and because of extreme nervousness, sleepiness and anxiety. My period has just started up again after only one week since the last one and my nerves are shot. I called my Gyn and she suggested I take Xanax or Prozac. I was afraid of the Xanax because I’ve heard how addictive it is, so I opted for the Prozac. When I went to the Pharmacy to pick up the Prozac I was surprised to see that my prescription only had 25 pills and was non refillable. The literature I received with the Prozac said that it takes 4 weeks for this medication to become effective and the pharmacist also confirmed this. I am totally confused and disgusted at this point. I have a call into my Gyn but was told not to expect to hear from her until next Tuesday and today is Friday. I resisted taking HRT but finally had to give in order to keep my sanity. There has to be something better than this. Sorry to go on for so long but I guess I just needed to vent. Any feedback will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Barbara

Response:

I live in the miidwest near a large teaching hospital. I just had a bone scan at a clinic funded by this hospital. My spine reading was a -3.2 (depressing).The doctor who went over the reading with me said I most certainly should talk to my doctor about starting some form of HRT.Even after I told her I had a bad reaction to Prempro & my Aunt just died from breast cancer.I said "so you still think women shold take ERT ?" "yes, I do" she said. I said "I don’t think my doctor is gung ho on this anymore." She said "Oh, you mean because of the recent findings ?""Well, that’s just one study". We are working to prove that women such as you should take estrogen to keep your bones.". I wish I would have had the back bone to tell her I thought she was full of it. They can rope women in with free bone tests all they want,but I’m not going to be part of their study !! She said just because I had a bad experience with Prempro is no reason not to try another form,like maybe a low dose without progesterone.Yeah, sure I will. Umhuh .Lora

Response:

Lora wrote:

I live in the miidwest near a large teaching hospital. I just had a bone scan at a clinic funded by this hospital. My spine reading was a -3.2 (depressing).The doctor who went over the reading with me said I most certainly should talk to my doctor about starting some form of HRT.Even after I told her I had a bad reaction to Prempro & my Aunt just died from breast cancer.I said "so you still think women shold take ERT ?" "yes, I do" she said. I said "I don’t think my doctor is gung ho on this anymore." She said "Oh, you mean because of the recent findings ?""Well, that’s just one study". We are working to prove that women such as you should take estrogen to keep your bones.".

Eeeeew. If that’s really the way she phrased it, it sounds to me like someone who’s made up their mind and doesn’t want to consider the evidence.

I wish I would have had the back bone to tell her I thought she was full of it.

Well, no matter what you told her, you have every right to control your own health care. If you’re concerned about your bones, there are *lots* of things you can do, from incresing weight-bearing exercise and training for good balance to investigating other drugs which may be less problematic for you.

They can rope women in with free bone tests all they want,but I’m not going to be part of their study !! She said just because I had a bad experience with Prempro is no reason not to try another form,like maybe a low dose without progesterone.Yeah, sure I will. Umhuh .Lora

Did she discuss any other options with you? –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

Hi, just found this group and have enjoyed reading some of the posts. It seems as though most are agains HRT for perimenopause symptoms. I am in that boat and a female Dr. has given me some Phemphase to try for a few months to see if it helps. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks Brenda

Response:

It seems as though most are agains HRT for perimenopause symptoms. I am in that boat and a female Dr. has given me some Phemphase to try for a few months to see if it helps.

I started taking Premphase while still in perimenopause and bled like hell for three months. Your mileage may vary. I hear you can crush up the pills and use them to fertilize your houseplants, though… Regards, Laura lblanch…@aol.com

Response:

Hi Brenda. I’m in the UK but if Premphase is the same as PremPak – I loved it at first and loathed it later. Even in the early stages (when I thought it was A Good Thing) I was getting a few mild side effects (such as water retention, slight weight gain) and by the second month I had red and puffy hands and feet (no idea why). By the end of the second month the progesterone part of the cycle was unpleasant enough (heavier bleeding) to make me change prescription (which was no better). I don’t take HRT now. I don’t want to. I found I can manage without it. Good luck with your experiment but I would encourage you to stick around asm. Not only because you will find a lot of information that you might be very glad to have, but also ‘cos it can be quite fun round here at times silver bfsmo <bf…@i1.net

wrote in message

news:01beb8e3$a427a0a0$d98e4ad1@default…

Hi, just found this group and have enjoyed reading some of the posts. It

seems as though most are agains HRT for perimenopause symptoms. I am in that boat and a female Dr. has given me some Phemphase to try for a few months to see if it helps. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Any information would be appreciated. Thanks Brenda

Response:

Thanks Joanna. I guess I’m just a little scared of the whole thing. I have all the symptoms and feel all out of sorts and crummy. I am just hoping that the HRT will make me feel better and scared that it won’t. I will start on the Phemphase on Sunday so wish me luck. Brenda Joanna Prescott <joa…@lotos-land.demon.co.uk

wrote in article

<3792762e.48319…@news.demon.co.uk

…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 17:10:04 GMT, "bfsmo" <bf…@i1.net wrote: Hello Brenda and welcome to asm. You’ll find very few women here who would be against the use of HRT _generally_ in order to deal with short-term unbearable problems unless, of course, it is contra-indicated by a history of breast cancer.

Response:

Joanna Prescott <joa…@lotos-land.demon.co.uk

wrote in message

news:37774829.8085234@news.demon.co.uk…

On Fri, 18 Jun 1999 02:09:50 +0100, "silver" <sil…@starlight.freeserve.co.uk wrote: I’m in the UK but if Premphase is the same as PremPak – I loved it at

first and loathed it later. Even in the early stages (when I thought it was A Good Thing) I was getting a few mild side effects (such as water retention, slight weight gain) and by the second month I had red and puffy hands and feet (no idea why).

This was precisely my experience on PremPak. By the end of the second month the progesterone part of the cycle was

unpleasant enough (heavier bleeding) to make me change prescription (which was no better).

Well for me, it did control my bleeding but the progesterone made me

anxious, more foggy, and [almost] suicidally depressed. What were you offered as an alternative out of interest? I asked for prometrium or the European equivalent but was reluctantly given a script for Climen [My doc is not pro-HRT]. I didn’t fill it.

I don’t take HRT now. I don’t want to. I found I can manage without

it.

I find I can manage better without it! [Fingers crossed] Joanna

My dosage on PremPak was 0.625mg. This was later changed to Femoston 1/10 with an extra dollop of Norethisterone thrown in. When the side effects increased I was prescribed a patch instead, Estracombi. I never used the patch as I became ill before the beginning of the next cycle. I hope I never have to go near the stuff again silver

Response:

In reviewing past posting, I didn’t find anything on pros and cons of HRT if breast cancer runs in your family. I know about Hrt resulting in less bone loss, better skin elasticity, etc. But will I be sorry with my decision in 20 years? Opinions, articles, anyone?

Oh, wow, have we got opinions on this one! Not me at the moment, because I don’t have symptoms that full HRT will do anything about and I’m not convinced of the long-term benefits for me, given my family’s long-lived, strong-boned, heart-healthy track record. So I haven’t been following the debate too carefully. But I *think* the consensus is that if you’re at risk for breast cancer you should think long and hard about HRT because even with the protective effects of progestins added in there’s a chance that the estrogen will stimulate an existing cancer. Jump in, folks, if I’ve misspoken. Regards, Laura Blanchard lblanch…@aol.com posted to alt.support.menopause and e-mailed to author

Response:

In reviewing past posting, I didn’t find anything on pros and cons of HRT if breast cancer runs in your family. I know about Hrt resulting in less bone loss, better skin elasticity, etc. But will I be sorry with my decision in 20 years? Opinions, articles, anyone? ——————-==== Posted via Deja News ====———————– http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

Response:

:

In reviewing past posting, I didn’t find anything on pros and cons of HRT

:

if breast cancer runs in your family. I know about Hrt resulting in less

:

bone loss, better skin elasticity, etc. But will I be sorry with my

:

decision in 20 years? Opinions, articles, anyone?

Hi, First of all it is important to sort out which claim is being made for which drug. The estrogen (ERT) product label itself says there is no skin benefit and there are no approved uses for progesterone so this skin thing is in the land of wishful thinking and a drug marketer’s dream. Estrogen was heavily sold to the general public in the 1960’s as a secret beauty potion in a book called "Feminine Forever" which was published by drug company money. Much of that marketing myth is still with us today which is why the estrogen product insert has to warn women this is not true and that long term use of this product is dangerous. Selling eternal youth and beauty has always been so universally appealing and estrogen in the 1960′ was the the elixer du jour. Some of the older books still imply this is the case. Is someone scaring you into thinking you will be sorry if you don’t take these drugs? This can easily be the implication one gets from their doctor. We even had one here who said he had no real financial interest in gettin meno women on drugs because he would make more money on them trying to fix them if they did not take drugs …implying they would have heart attacks and osteo problems etc. No adequate proof exists that estrogen and/or progesterone (HRT) have any long term benefits. However, this does not stop this -implication- from being repeated over and over again until it sounds like it is in fact the truth. This is why the very first long term trials are now underway and beginning answers will not even be available until 2005. It sounds like some one tried to scare you with some non-existing facts on this issue. I am sorry especially if this was an authority figure in your life. There are some very sound, no nonsense books out there to read. Acid test for me as to a books credibility is they make heart benefit claims, then the book is badly out of date. And it they get too carried away with bone benefits, then it is overstating the known facts. And if the book is really in fact selling youth and beauty via castration and estrogen, then it is in the land of pseudo-science. Check any book to see how well it is cited to independent studies and peer reviewed medical journal cites. And then see if you can look up some of those studies yourself so you can best judge the credibility of the material. Still the best advice is to read the FDA product insert itself to get started on what you want to know about a drug you are being asked to take …for life. Joan L.

Response:

I am new to this so please bear with me if I do something "wrong"! I would like some input regarding HRT. I originally opted for this treatment when I could no longer handle waking up during the night for longer periods than I was sleeping. Plus I was having hot flashes. After trying all the natural remedies to no avail, I chose to go on estrogen. After having break through bleeding I had all the prescribed tests and the dosage of progesterine I was taking was upped from 2.5 for 15 days a month to 10 for 10 days per month. I was wondering if anyone out there has had any experience with this. I am not one to want to take medication of any kind but felt this was a necessary step to take to get my life back to normal. However, I am uncomfortable with this latest development. Does this increase in dosage mean "always" or will it be cut back when the bleeding is under control? Do you ever stop bleeding when you take HRT? Thanks in advance for any answers/advice you can offer. <(:<)=

Response:

Lianne, Thanks for tracking the newbie posts to see who needs answering. Kardiolady hasn’t said what HRT she is taking and whether or not it helped with the sleeplessness and hot flashes. It is not unusual to up the progestin to stop breakthrough bleeding (Laura where are you?). I don’t know how big a dose is usually used. It doesn’t seem reasonable to expect that the large dose would be needed forever. It’s been reported that many women stop bleeding after 6 months of Prempro treatment or with continuous estrogen/progesterone rather than cyclic. Women on cyclic HRT continue to have periods until they stop the HRT. By all of the rpescribed tests, do you mean endometrial biopsy to check for a cause of the bleeding? Cheryl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lianne McNeil wrote in message <34510E6B.4…@seesig.pobox.com

… Does anyone who has used HRT have any answers for this lady? I haven’t seen any responses, and I can’t answer the question… Lianne KARDIOLADY wrote: I am new to this so please bear with me if I do something "wrong"! I

would

like some input regarding HRT. I originally opted for this treatment

when I

could no longer handle waking up during the night for longer periods

than I

was sleeping. Plus I was having hot flashes. After trying all the

natural

remedies to no avail, I chose to go on estrogen. After having break

through

bleeding I had all the prescribed tests and the dosage of progesterine I

was

taking was upped from 2.5 for 15 days a month to 10 for 10 days per

month. I

was wondering if anyone out there has had any experience with this. I

am not

one to want to take medication of any kind but felt this was a necessary

step

to take to get my life back to normal. However, I am uncomfortable with

this

latest development. Does this increase in dosage mean "always" or will

it be

cut back when the bleeding is under control? Do you ever stop bleeding

when

you take HRT? Thanks in advance for any answers/advice you can offer.

<(:<)=

— No spam. No announcements. No commercial e-mail. Remove "seesig." from this for e-mail. Do not add my name/address to any mail lists.

Response:

I can assure you that this is not true. I was prescribed Provera over 12 years ago.

Response:

I have heard that progestin has been used for menopausal women for only about eight years. Is this true? If it is true, how does anyone know the longterm effects?

Response:

Thank you, I will pass this along to my friend. Cathy — P.H.O.B.I.A. People Helping Others Become Independent Again Off-line Self Help Support Group, NJ http://community.nj.com/cc/phobia Anxiety Treatment Options http://www.members.tripod.com/~PhobiaGroup/index.html "Pat Kight" <kig…@ucs.orst.edu

wrote in message

news:8atu51$jvh$1@news.NERO.NET… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

In article <8atanf0…@news1.newsguy.com, P.H.O.B.I.A. <cat…@dov.adelphia.net wrote: Hi Pat & Kali, After natural menopause do the ovaries still make a small amount of

Estrogen

for the remainder of our lives? Several parts of our bodies do, including our adrenal glands and fatty tissues (it looks like there may be an actual biological benefit in a certain amount of middle-aged spread!) If Osteoporosis is a problem associated with Menopause would calcium supplements help? These are the question that I believe my friend is wondering about, she does not want to keep taking the HRT but her doctor

is

very unyielding. Osteoporosis is a problem associated with aging – for *some* people, both men and women. Yes, there are studies which indicate that the estrogen our own bodies produce has a beneficial effect on our bones, and that bone loss begins to occur at around the same age as menopause. But it happens to men, too, so obviously the situation is more complex than just less estrogen=thinner bones. But there are a couple of things to keep in mind: Despite what the ads and drug companies tell us, osteoporosis is *not* an inevitable part of growing older. It’s a specific, diagnosable, pathological condition, and not everyone gets it. And it’s evidently not as simple as "take estrogen, save your bones." There are a lot of studies on this, and you can find references to several of them at http://menopause.tripod.com/#osteo As for other strategies for keeping our bones strong as we age: Taking calcium pills isn’t the only, or even the best one. It’s probably better to get calcium from your diet than from pills, and that’s not terribly difficult in the U.S., where we have access to a lot of calcium-rich foods. And weight-bearing exercise — excercise that puts a load on your bones, such as light weight training, resistance work and even walking — is one of the best things we can do to keep our bones strong. Since you said your friend is surgically menopausal, I urge you to check out the Surgi-Pause site, http://members.tripod.com/fiona_51/, for lots of information that may help her make her decision. And remember: She owns her body; her doctor doesn’t. This is her decision, not his. If he doesn’t like it, perhaps she may wish to find another doctor. Regards, –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

Pat Kight <kig…@ucs.orst.edu

wrote in message

news:8aq0d9$e4u$1@news.NERO.NET…

The bottom line: Despite what some doctors persist in telling us, there is little evidence for that even surgically menopausal women need to take these drugs for life, and growing evidence that doing so may be a very bad idea.

Yikes, Pat. Are you remembering that, compared with intact women (no drugs), surgically menopausal women (no drugs), while lowering their risk for breast cancer, are at increased risk of heart disease and real osteoporosis? ERT may not help so much the intact woman, but I do, personally believe that the studies show benefit for the surgically menopausal and that is one reason why I continue it. 2005 will be when I know for sure what I want to do. For now I can’t afford to stop it and deal with any withdrawal problems. Kalli ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://members.tripod.com/fiona_51 Surgical Menopause ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Response:

In article <9QfA4.4331$iP.297…@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net

,

Kalli <canel…@netzero.net

wrote: Pat Kight <kig…@ucs.orst.edu wrote in message news:8aq0d9$e4u$1@news.NERO.NET… The bottom line: Despite what some doctors persist in telling us, there is little evidence for that even surgically menopausal women need to take these drugs for life, and growing evidence that doing so may be a very bad idea. Yikes, Pat. Are you remembering that, compared with intact women (no drugs), surgically menopausal women (no drugs), while lowering their risk for breast cancer, are at increased risk of heart disease and real osteoporosis? ERT may not help so much the intact woman, but I do, personally believe that the studies show benefit for the surgically menopausal and that is one reason why I continue it.

Yes, I understand that, but as I read the more recent studies, it does appear to me that the evidence for benefit – even *for* surgically menopausal women – is shrinking. You’re smart and well-read and have made the decision you believe is best for you; I have a lot of respect for that. But I do think it’s possible that another smart, well-informed woman in much the same situation might make an different decision, based on the same evidence. That’s pretty much all I was trying to tell P.H.O.B.I.A. – that her friend needs to look at the best, most recent information available and decide for herself whether she wishes to continue on hormones. And that if she decides not to, she can expect the "withdrawal problems" you mention.

2005 will be when I know for sure what I want to do. For now I can’t afford to stop it and deal with any withdrawal problems.

–Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

Hi Pat & Kali, After natural menopause do the ovaries still make a small amount of Estrogen for the remainder of our lives? If Osteoporosis is a problem associated with Menopause would calcium supplements help? These are the question that I believe my friend is wondering about, she does not want to keep taking the HRT but her doctor is very unyielding. Cathy — P.H.O.B.I.A. People Helping Others Become Independent Again Off-line Self Help Support Group, NJ http://community.nj.com/cc/phobia Anxiety Treatment Options http://www.members.tripod.com/~PhobiaGroup/index.html "Pat Kight" <kig…@ucs.orst.edu

wrote in message

news:8as40a$4fm$1@news.NERO.NET… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <9QfA4.4331$iP.297…@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, > Kalli <canel…@netzero.net> wrote: > >Pat Kight <kig…@ucs.orst.edu

wrote in message

> >news:8aq0d9$e4u$1@news.NERO.NET… > >> The bottom line: Despite what some doctors persist in telling us, there is

little evidence for that even surgically menopausal women need to take these drugs for life, and growing evidence that doing so may be a very

bad

idea. Yikes, Pat. Are you remembering that, compared with intact women (no drugs), surgically menopausal women (no drugs), while lowering their

risk

for breast cancer, are at increased risk of heart disease and real osteoporosis? ERT may not help so much the intact woman, but I do, personally believe that the studies show benefit for the surgically menopausal and that is one reason why I continue it. Yes, I understand that, but as I read the more recent studies, it does appear to me that the evidence for benefit – even *for* surgically menopausal women – is shrinking. You’re smart and well-read and have made the decision you believe is best for you; I have a lot of respect for that. But I do think it’s possible that another smart, well-informed woman in much the same situation might make an different decision, based on the same evidence. That’s pretty much all I was trying to tell P.H.O.B.I.A. – that her friend needs to look at the best, most recent information available and decide for herself whether she wishes to continue on hormones. And that if she decides not to, she can expect the "withdrawal problems" you mention. 2005 will be when I know for sure what I want to do. For now I can’t afford to stop it and

deal

with any withdrawal problems. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

On Fri, 17 Mar 2000 08:08:39 -0500, "P.H.O.B.I.A." <cat…@adelphia.net

wrote: Hi Pat & Kali, After natural menopause do the ovaries still make a small amount of Estrogen for the remainder of our lives? If Osteoporosis is a problem associated with Menopause would calcium supplements help? These are the question that I believe my friend is wondering about, she does not want to keep taking the HRT but her doctor is very unyielding. Cathy

Cathy, Your friend needs to make her own decision and find a doctor who will work *with* her, not one who thinks he/she has the right to dictate to his/her patients. If she wants to stop taking hormones, it’s his/her job to help her find a way to do that and still resolve any health concerns she might have. If she actually *has* osteoporosis then there are drugs intended to treat this disease that would be more beneficial – fosamax, didronel, calcitonin, for example. If this is supposed to be "preventative" then she needs to weigh what she sees as the risks and benefits. Even women without ovaries produce an estrogen precursor in their body fat which the adrenals convert to estrone. The body can convert this estrone to any one of the other two prominent estrogens in a woman’s body, estradiol or estriol, so amount of body fat might play a part in her decision. Diet and weight-bearing exercise play a much larger role in this disease than exogenous hormones. She should also make sure she spends 15 minutes in full sunlight (face, arms, and hands)without sunscreens/sunblocks every day to make sure she has sufficient Vitamin D. *NOTE* 15 minutes only, not bake in the sun. Hope this helps Terri

Response:

In article <8atanf0…@news1.newsguy.com

,

P.H.O.B.I.A. <cat…@dov.adelphia.net

wrote: Hi Pat & Kali, After natural menopause do the ovaries still make a small amount of Estrogen for the remainder of our lives?

Several parts of our bodies do, including our adrenal glands and fatty tissues (it looks like there may be an actual biological benefit in a certain amount of middle-aged spread!)

If Osteoporosis is a problem associated with Menopause would calcium supplements help? These are the question that I believe my friend is wondering about, she does not want to keep taking the HRT but her doctor is very unyielding.

Osteoporosis is a problem associated with aging – for *some* people, both men and women. Yes, there are studies which indicate that the estrogen our own bodies produce has a beneficial effect on our bones, and that bone loss begins to occur at around the same age as menopause. But it happens to men, too, so obviously the situation is more complex than just less estrogen=thinner bones. But there are a couple of things to keep in mind: Despite what the ads and drug companies tell us, osteoporosis is *not* an inevitable part of growing older. It’s a specific, diagnosable, pathological condition, and not everyone gets it. And it’s evidently not as simple as "take estrogen, save your bones." There are a lot of studies on this, and you can find references to several of them at http://menopause.tripod.com/#osteo As for other strategies for keeping our bones strong as we age: Taking calcium pills isn’t the only, or even the best one. It’s probably better to get calcium from your diet than from pills, and that’s not terribly difficult in the U.S., where we have access to a lot of calcium-rich foods. And weight-bearing exercise — excercise that puts a load on your bones, such as light weight training, resistance work and even walking — is one of the best things we can do to keep our bones strong. Since you said your friend is surgically menopausal, I urge you to check out the Surgi-Pause site, http://members.tripod.com/fiona_51/, for lots of information that may help her make her decision. And remember: She owns her body; her doctor doesn’t. This is her decision, not his. If he doesn’t like it, perhaps she may wish to find another doctor. Regards, –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

Hello ASM, I am posting this question for a friend: My friend has had a complete Hysterectomy many years ago (probably when she was 30 to 40ish) she is in her 60’s now and is on HRT. Her hysterectomy was complete with removal of ovaries, uterus & cervix due to ovarian cysts and excessive bleeding. I am sure no intelligent doctor would resort to this today. But anyway……… she would like to know if she really needs to have HRT. Especially since the new reports on women not benefiting from HRT in regard to heart disease. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you Cathy — P.H.O.B.I.A. People Helping Others Become Independent Again Off-line Self Help Support Group, NJ http://community.nj.com/cc/phobia Anxiety Treatment Options http://www.members.tripod.com/~PhobiaGroup/index.html

Response:

She never needed it for heart disease, and that has been stated right there on the FDA drug warning label for estrogen drugs for years. Premarin was not able to present any proof that their drug product helped in any fashion for either treatment or prevention of osteoporosis. They presented 7 studies and the FDA rejected all 7. No proof. Only by appealing to another reveiw board was a compromise consensus agreement reached, that got translated as an authorized use of this drug for surrogate bone "benefits." But keep in mind this is NOT proof of any value, only an opinion that they hope it helps, but are clueless if in fact it does. Since the bone "benefits" require lifetime use, and what appears to be ever-increasing doses of these drug to get this surrogate "benefit", all of the other strong warnings exist about long-term use of these drugs. Long term use of HRT increases the risks of getting the following aging diseases: cancers, strokes, heart disease, gall bladder disease, blood clots, diabetes, arthritis and asthma. Why do you suppose, knowing all of this like a good doctor should who keeps up on the research in the leading scientific journals, this doctor talked this asymptomatic woman into taking these drugs? Do yoy think the doctor listened to his commercial drug sales rep instead of the scientific literature? I think so. The only good news here is that in 2005 we will know a little bit more about these drugs as there is finally the only indpendent, placebo controlled prospective study ever done on them. These results will not be in for another 5 years. If I were your friend, and I am not and I do not share her health history, I would wait until there was proof that any benefits outweighed the significant side effects now getting associated with the use of these drugs. Your friend’s sense and need for risk taking may be quite different than mine. J P.H.O.B.I.A. <cat…@adelphia.net

wrote in message

news:8apnhm0na9@news2.newsguy.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hello ASM, I am posting this question for a friend: My friend has had a complete Hysterectomy many years ago (probably when

she

was 30 to 40ish) she is in her 60’s now and is on HRT. Her hysterectomy

was

complete with removal of ovaries, uterus & cervix due to ovarian cysts and excessive bleeding. I am sure no intelligent doctor would resort to this today. But anyway……… she would like to know if she really needs to have HRT. Especially since the new reports on women not benefiting from

HRT

in regard to heart disease. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you Cathy — P.H.O.B.I.A. People Helping Others Become Independent Again Off-line Self Help Support Group, NJ http://community.nj.com/cc/phobia Anxiety Treatment Options http://www.members.tripod.com/~PhobiaGroup/index.html

Response:

In article <aF_z4.1775$hC3.285…@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net

,

Joan Livingston <joan.livingst…@gte.net

wrote: Why do you suppose, knowing all of this like a good doctor should who keeps up on the research in the leading scientific journals, this doctor talked this asymptomatic woman into taking these drugs?

However, P.H.O.B.I.A. didn’t say anything about her friend’s symptoms or lack of them. What she said was:

My friend has had a complete Hysterectomy many years ago (probably when she was 30 to 40ish) she is in her 60’s now and is on HRT. Her hysterectomy was complete with removal of ovaries, uterus & cervix due to ovarian cysts and excessive bleeding.

At the age she was when she had surgery, P.H.O.B.I.A., it makes some sense that your friend’s doctor would have prescribed hormones to help her through the abrupt transition into surgical menopause. Considering recent studies about the potential risks of long-term hormone use, and considering that your friend is now at an age when she likely would be menopausal even without the surgery, she may well wish to stop taking these drugs. I would suggest that she consult with her doctor about whether it is advisable to stop them abruptly or wean herself from them gradually. She should be aware that she may well experience some of the discomforts of menopause when she stops taking the drugs, and it may take her some time to get them out of her system. The bottom line: Despite what some doctors persist in telling us, there is little evidence for that even surgically menopausal women need to take these drugs for life, and growing evidence that doing so may be a very bad idea. Regards, –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

Hi Lois, Welcome to a.s.m. My first thought is why did you see the doctor? Regular checkup? Did you have symptoms that were bothering you? It doesn’t sound like it from your post. If you are doing okay, what rationale did your doctor have for you to start taking drugs? Was it just because you reached a certain age or something? Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lois wrote:

This is the first time in your group. A month ago my doctor suggested I consider going on HRT. I have been doing very well without for 8 years now, and am worried about this change — and certainly don’t want to go back to having periods. I have been reading everything I can get my hands on — and still can’t make up my mind to go ahead. Any thoughts?? and thanks.

Response:

This is the first time in your group. A month ago my doctor suggested I consider going on HRT. I have been doing very well without for 8 years now, and am worried about this change — and certainly don’t want to go back to having periods. I have been reading everything I can get my hands on — and still can’t make up my mind to go ahead. Any thoughts?? and thanks.

Response:

Lois wrote: This is the first time in your group. A month ago my doctor suggested I consider going on HRT. I have been doing very well without for 8

years now, and

am worried about this change — and certainly don’t want to go back to

having

periods. I have been reading everything I can get my hands on — and still can’t make up my mind to go ahead. Any thoughts?? and thanks.

There is lots of information on the pros and cons of HRT all over the net. Try the New York Times which has a women’s health page with archives to articles written in the Times over the past couple of years. The American Medical Association at www.ama-assn.org has a women’s health section and also access to all their research articles. Lots’ of other sources. The reasons doctors suggest HRT is because it is associated with health and longevity — specifically reduced rates of heart disease, osteoporosis — and perhaps Alzheimer’s Disease and Colon cancer. All this is based on preliminary research — although there is quite a bit of consistency in findings. There is also similar research that suggests that HRT over the long term increases the risk of breast cancer. many HRT regimines do not involve periods being re-established. e.g. Prempro is taken continuously and involves no reintroduction of bleeding.

Response:

Hope I’m doing this right since its my first time using a newsgroup. I"m 44 and have had intermittent period for past year. Suffered with vertigo followed by anxiety,depression and hot flashes. My gynocologist prescribed premphase (fsh level was 96). This has all come to as a shock to me since I figured menopause started in the 50’s for most women. I’m reading Ann Louise Gittleman’s book "Before the Change" and this among other reading has freaked me about synthetic HRT. I have the prescription sitting here next to me and I don’t want to take it. I’ve recently started taking vitamins and they seem to be helping. But I"m still wondering if I should take premphase or not…I would appreciate any feedback….

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hamilton wrote:

Lois wrote: This is the first time in your group. A month ago my doctor suggested I consider going on HRT. I have been doing very well without for 8 years now, and am worried about this change — and certainly don’t want to go back to having periods. I have been reading everything I can get my hands on — and still can’t make up my mind to go ahead. Any thoughts?? and thanks. There is lots of information on the pros and cons of HRT all over the net. Try the New York Times which has a women’s health page with archives to articles written in the Times over the past couple of years. The American Medical Association at www.ama-assn.org has a women’s health section and also access to all their research articles. Lots’ of other sources.

Try the unofficial asm web page for starters. It has links to many non-commercial good sites for information.http://www.oxford.net/~tishy

The reasons doctors suggest HRT is because it is associated with health and longevity — specifically reduced rates of heart disease, osteoporosis — and perhaps Alzheimer’s Disease and Colon cancer. All this is based on preliminary research — although there is quite a bit of consistency in findings. There is also similar research that suggests that HRT over the long term increases the risk of breast cancer.

An interesting answer but one which is basically meaningless. Two questions immediately arise. Doctors may suggest hormones for these reasons but that does not, ipso facto, mean that such a suggestion is appropriate or that these are issues with which the menopausal and most-menopausal woman should be especially concerned. Breast cancer risk has been documented in epidemiological studies and just recently in the lab – premarin causes changes in DNA which are precursors to cancers. This danger in hormone use is real. The benefits in the cases of heart disease are ephemeral and the last study (done by Kaiser-Permanente) showed no benefit at all. Also if the Nurses’ Study is corrected for the skewed population and for exclusion of those at highest risk, the difference between the homone and non-hormones groups in terms of heart disease is statistically insignificant. The Alzheimer’s connection, like the colon cancer one, is very tentative and has numerous statistical problems. There are no good studies showing this "benefit" although one notices that it being hyped in the news a great deal lately perhaps because Alzheimer’s is a sufficiently horrible disease that women might be willing to risk breast cancer to avoid it. But as with heart disease the risk of breast cancer is real and documented but the benefit in avoiding Alzheimer’s may not be. Women are being needlessly frightened by doctors and drug company ads about osteoporosis. Bone thinning is normal and is not necessarily pathological in the post-menopausal woman. The bone density "benefits" of hormones last only so long as the drug is continued.

many HRT regimines do not involve periods being re-established. e.g. Prempro is taken continuously and involves no reintroduction of bleeding.

Except that some bleeding does occur – to be honest this is *not* a period since post menopausal women do not have real periods – and can be expected for at least six months. It may last much longer. See the webpage cited above for more info on this drug. marcie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

The reasons doctors suggest HRT is because it is associated with health and longevity — specifically reduced rates of heart disease, osteoporosis — and perhaps Alzheimer’s Disease and Colon cancer. All this is based on preliminary research — although there is quite a bit of consistency in findings. There is also similar research that suggests that HRT over the long term increases the risk of breast cancer. An interesting answer but one which is basically meaningless. Two questions immediately arise. Doctors may suggest hormones for these reasons but that does not, ipso facto, mean that such a suggestion is appropriate or that these are issues with which the menopausal and most-menopausal woman should be especially concerned. Breast cancer risk has been documented in epidemiological studies and just recently in the lab – premarin causes changes in DNA which are precursors to cancers. This danger in hormone use is real. The benefits in the cases of heart disease are ephemeral and the last study (done by Kaiser-Permanente) showed no benefit at all. Also if the Nurses’ Study is corrected for the skewed population and for exclusion of those at highest risk, the difference between the homone and non-hormones groups in terms of heart disease is statistically insignificant.

For the zillionth time -0- the data that supports the idea that breast cancer risks increase with HRT is EXACTLY THE SAME QUALITY OF DATA [AND IN SOME CASES THE SAME DATA] as that which supports heart and bone benefits. The benefits are just as real as the risks. There are several studies which show no increased breast cancer risk — but the preponderance of studies do. Similar findings for heart and bone.

The Alzheimer’s connection, like the colon cancer one, is very tentative and has numerous statistical problems. There are no good studies showing this "benefit" although one notices that it being hyped in the news a great deal lately perhaps because Alzheimer’s is a sufficiently horrible disease that women might be willing to risk breast cancer to avoid it. But as with heart disease the risk of breast cancer is real and documented but the benefit in avoiding Alzheimer’s may not be.

The association with AD is not as well established as with breast cancer i.e. fewer epidemiological studies that have explored this — BUT it is the same kind of evidence. People who get breast cancer are not more ‘real’ nor is their illness than people who don’t have heart attacks, broken hips and AD. Presumably there are REAL women who don’t take hormones and who have had breast cancer and don’t. Similarly there are REAL women who take hrt and have not developed AD, heart attacks or broken hips. I don’t know what your meaning is for REAL — but not having a broken hip as a result of HRT is as real for that woman as developing breast cancer. k

Response:

On Mon, 02 Mar 1998 13:11:30 -0500, anna…@idt.net wrote:

This has all come to as a shock to me since I figured menopause started in the 50’s for most women.

Yes, it comes as a shock to a lot of women, because menopause has been mentioned so little in our society, and everyone seems to assume that one day when they’ll be in their 50’s, it’ll just happen. Actually, according to what I’ve read, the average age for menopause is 50.5 or 51. This is an average, and I assume that more women will have cessation of menstruation close to that age than further away from it. However, averages are obtained by taking all the known numbers, adding them together, and then dividing. So, some women have menopause in their 40’s and some in their 60’s. From what I’ve read, any time between 40 and about 63 is considered to be normal. The next thing that women aren’t prepared for is that menopause is a gradual process. So for a few years before actual menopause, the hormones begin changing, menstrual periods become irregular, and many women begin experiencing some of the symptoms associated with menopause. This time is called perimenopause. It is the opposite of puberty. According to Winnifred Cutler, Ph.D. (author of several books on menopause and related subjects) puberty usually takes around 7 years from the first period, until the periods assume a regular (normal, adult) pattern. She believes that perimenopause averages about the same length of time. If so, then most women can expect to begin experiencing some of these symptoms 5 or more years before actual menopause. I’m

reading Ann Louise Gittleman’s book "Before the Change" and this among other reading has freaked me about synthetic HRT. I have the prescription sitting here next to me and I don’t want to take it. I’ve recently started taking vitamins and they seem to be helping. But I"m still wondering if I should take premphase or not…I would appreciate any feedback….

I have not read that book, so I can’t comment on it. I would suggest doing a lot of reading about menopause, and then make your decision. Dr. Susan Love’s Hormone Book is one excellent book. I like Winnifred Cutler’s Menopause A Guide For Women & Those Who Love Them, too Joan L. usually recommends The Menopause Industry by Sandra Coney. I think there are more good books, but I can’t remember them at the moment. There is a link to the book list at http://www.oxford.net/~tishy/asm.html though. Lianne To reply by e-mail, remove "seesig." from my address. No spam, no announcements, no commercial e-mail, no mailing lists.

Response:

In article <34FC7559.36FE3…@yahoo.com

,

marcie rekenn <rek…@yahoo.com

wrote: Breast cancer risk has been documented in epidemiological studies and just recently in the lab – premarin causes changes in DNA which are precursors to cancers.

I think the study to which you refer is: Bolton JL, Shen L, Qiu S, Chen Y, Zhang F, van Breemen RB, Nikolic D. 1997 (Jan). Alkylation of 2′-Deoxynucleosides and DNA by the Premarin Metabolite 4-Hydroxyequilenin Semiquinone Radical. Chem. Res. Toxicol. This shows that a chemical product which can be synthesized from Premarin in the laboratory has been shown to have effect on DNA. In some cases these products, called catecholestrogens, may be metabolites (breakdown products) of Premarin. This is a significant finding, especially since catecholestrogens are complete carcinogens–i.e. they cause cancer and aren’t just precursors. However, it is not Premarin which does this, it is a product which may or may not occur in significant concentrations as a metabolite of Premarin. In fact, catecholestrogens can occur as metabolites of other forms of estrogen, including the estrogen naturally occuring in the bodies of men and women taking no drugs or hormones at all.

Response:

Hello group. Has anyone else experienced getting hives in connection with HRT or hormonal changes? My 1st bout was when I went off the pill in ‘74. I had hives for 6 mo. Then, about the time my FSH became elevated to 108 pts. I began having hives on and off for days or weeks from ‘93 to present. Very annoying. Can estrogen dominance cause this? Can progesterone deficiency cause this? Any help would be appreciated. carrie

Response:

Hello ILGEM, I haven’t personally experienced this, but please know that it’s definitely normal to have skin problems and allergy changes at this time. Check out the list of menopause signs at Tishy’s web site: http://www.oxford.net/~tishy/33signs.html 15. Itchy, crawly skin (Feeling of ants crawling under the skin, not just dry, itchy skin.) 23. Exacerbation of existing conditions 24. Increase in allergies Welcome to our group. I hope you find help and friends here. Wishing you well, fiona – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ILGEM wrote in message <19980315024000.VAA21…@ladder03.news.aol.com

… Hello group. Has anyone else experienced getting hives in connection with

HRT

or hormonal changes? My 1st bout was when I went off the pill in ‘74. I

had

hives for 6 mo. Then, about the time my FSH became elevated to 108 pts. I

began

having hives on and off for days or weeks from ‘93 to present. Very

annoying.

Can estrogen dominance cause this? Can progesterone deficiency cause this?

Any

help would be appreciated. carrie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -wal…@dnvn.com wrote:

The reasons doctors suggest HRT is because it is associated with health and longevity — specifically reduced rates of heart disease, osteoporosis — and perhaps Alzheimer’s Disease and Colon cancer. All this is based on preliminary research — although there is quite a bit of consistency in findings. There is also similar research that suggests that HRT over the long term increases the risk of breast cancer. An interesting answer but one which is basically meaningless. Two questions immediately arise. Doctors may suggest hormones for these reasons but that does not, ipso facto, mean that such a suggestion is appropriate or that these are issues with which the menopausal and most-menopausal woman should be especially concerned. Breast cancer risk has been documented in epidemiological studies and just recently in the lab – premarin causes changes in DNA which are precursors to cancers. This danger in hormone use is real. The benefits in the cases of heart disease are ephemeral and the last study (done by Kaiser-Permanente) showed no benefit at all. Also if the Nurses’ Study is corrected for the skewed population and for exclusion of those at highest risk, the difference between the homone and non-hormones groups in terms of heart disease is statistically insignificant. For the zillionth time -0- the data that supports the idea that breast cancer risks increase with HRT is EXACTLY THE SAME QUALITY OF DATA [AND IN SOME CASES THE SAME DATA] as that which supports heart and bone benefits.

You are, of course, free to interpret the data any way you wish. If you view the negative (I didn’t have a heart attack and I took estrogen therefore the estrogen prevented the heart attack) as the same as the positive ( I took estrogen and I have breast cancer) then you are right. However the breast cancer would seem to me to exist in the here and now while the heart attack might never have happened in any case. Going beyond this argument, one must look at the populations being studied. Women at risk for breast cancer have been excluded from most studies on hormones as were those at risk for heart disease for many years. Using the general population risk numbers to compare the relative risk in these study populations is not quite honest. The end result will present the breast cancer risk as lower than it actually is, since the group on hormones had a lower than normal risk to begin with. and present the cardiac benefit as greater since the group had a lower than average risk for heart disease in the first place. Further a very recent study showed that premarin which has been used in most of the studies actually causes pre-maligninat changes in DNA. It is also important to note that the studies generally compare deaths from breast cancer with deaths AND heart attacks or other cardiovascular event when arguing for a net benefit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

The benefits are just as real as the risks. There are several studies which show no increased breast cancer risk — but the preponderance of studies do. Similar findings for heart and bone. The Alzheimer’s connection, like the colon cancer one, is very tentative and has numerous statistical problems. There are no good studies showing this "benefit" although one notices that it being hyped in the news a great deal lately perhaps because Alzheimer’s is a sufficiently horrible disease that women might be willing to risk breast cancer to avoid it. But as with heart disease the risk of breast cancer is real and documented but the benefit in avoiding Alzheimer’s may not be. The association with AD is not as well established as with breast cancer i.e. fewer epidemiological studies that have explored this — BUT it is the same kind of evidence. People who get breast cancer are not more ‘real’ nor is their illness than people who don’t have heart attacks, broken hips and AD. Presumably there are REAL women who don’t take hormones and who have had breast cancer and don’t. Similarly there are REAL women who take hrt and have not developed AD, heart attacks or broken hips.

I refer you to the URL posted a day ago as to the position of the AMA on taking estrogen to prevent Alzheimer’s disease. The benefit does NOT outweigh the risk in the collective judgement of the AMA as reported in the JAMA. marcie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I don’t know what your meaning is for REAL — but not having a broken hip as a result of HRT is as real for that woman as developing breast cancer. k

Response:

On 3 Mar 1998 wal…@dnvn.com wrote:

For the zillionth time -0- the data that supports the idea that breast cancer risks increase with HRT is EXACTLY THE SAME QUALITY OF DATA [AND IN SOME CASES THE SAME DATA] as that which supports heart and bone benefits. The benefits are just as real as the risks. There are several studies which show no increased breast cancer risk — but the preponderance of studies do. Similar findings for heart and bone.

It seves no one to just blindly reference all these anonymous "studies" that show all these putative findings you just did.. Each study stands and falls on its own merits and studies only what it studies. Slinging conclusions around as if they had some independent validity is irresponsible. We all know you personally -really- want to justify taking hormone drugs for life. And repeatedly, everyone seems to have long acknowldeged this is every woman’s individual right. But this continual attempt to "scientifically" justify these drugs’ use in such a sloppy way is really inappropriate for general readership. IMHO, of course. If you want to cite studies conclusion for sake of argument, please in the future offer the actual title and reference for your arguments. Thank you. shelly

Response:

Lisa wrote:

My mother is 61 and post-menopausal.Last night she told me that she is considering being involved in a medical research study. The study is trying to determine the effects of HRT on slowing-down age-related skin laxity and wrinkling. Would any of you ever consider participating in a medical research study taking HRT for this reason? Apparently there’s a lot of hope surrounding the benefits of being on this particular dose of HRT– and one of them is improvement in overall skin condition. What are your thoughts on HRT in general? I’m concerned for her well being.

In general: I think that, for many women, HRT is overkill. Considering the (few) potential benefits versus the very real risks, I’ve opted to do without. I respect the informed decisions of other women to take hormone drugs, but hope they understand what they’re getting into. This study, however, sounds to me like a desperate effort of the pharmaceutical industry to justify their veiled sales pitches that seem to promise that HRT will keep us young forever, a notion I find patently ridiculous. You might ask your mother this: Is she willing to trade an *proven* increased risk of stroke, cancer and possibly heart disease on the off chance that she might have slightly smoother skin? –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tishy wrote:

If this is a genuine concern for your mother, see www.oxford.net/~tishy/goingonhrt.html That said, I strongly doubt your motives since your email address leads to a company which says: "We develop brands that not only capture mindshare but develop lead generation and qualifications as well as return on investment. beyond that, we infuse every campaign with unparallel insight into the patient perspective" If that weren’t enough, how about: "Patient Recruitment …….Our tremendous success for patient recruitment for clinical research studies…. ………. our strength in patient recruitment grows out of ten years experience in direct-to-consumer marketing….."

Good catch, Tishy. So our "concerned daughter" is actually doing market research. Yet another example of the underhanded dealings of the pharmaceutical industry, perhaps? I do believe I’ll amend my previous response to a more succinct one: Bite me, Lisa. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

Lisa <lisa.catal…@bbkhealthcare.com

wrote in message

news:9vage3$j5t$1@news.harvard.net…

My mother is 61 and post-menopausal.Last night she told me that she is considering being involved in a medical research study. The study is

trying

to determine the effects of HRT on slowing-down age-related skin laxity

and

wrinkling. Would any of you ever consider participating in a medical research study taking HRT for this reason?

Absolutely not. Apparently there’s a lot of hope

surrounding the benefits of being on this particular dose of HRT– and one of them is improvement in overall skin condition. What are your thoughts

on

HRT in general?

Negative. In the past 10-15 years my doctor went from "preparing" me to take it (he mentioned it as a ‘future’ thing when I was about 34) to not even suggesting it now that I’m dealing with perimenopause (I’m now 49). I would have to start having some pretty damned huge difficulties to even consider taking it. Marilee I’m concerned for her well being. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Thanks, Lisa

Response:

Tishy <ti…@cheerful.com

wrote in message

news:0jih1ucild6l2pdvbuq0kdmgmnnatqgn5g@4ax.com…

If this is a genuine concern for your mother, see www.oxford.net/~tishy/goingonhrt.html That said, I strongly doubt your motives since your email address leads to a company which says: "We develop brands that not only capture mindshare but develop lead generation and qualifications as well as return on investment. beyond that, we infuse every campaign with unparallel insight into the patient perspective" If that weren’t enough, how about:

Damn, you’re good, Tishy. I didn’t even -check- this for a spammer….. Marilee – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

"Patient Recruitment …….Our tremendous success for patient recruitment for clinical research studies…. ………. our strength in patient recruitment grows out of ten years experience in direct-to-consumer marketing….." Tishy On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:11:17 -0500, "Lisa" <lisa.catal…@bbkhealthcare.com wrote: My mother is 61 and post-menopausal.Last night she told me that she is considering being involved in a medical research study. The study is

trying

to determine the effects of HRT on slowing-down age-related skin laxity

and

wrinkling. Would any of you ever consider participating in a medical research study taking HRT for this reason? Apparently there’s a lot of

hope

surrounding the benefits of being on this particular dose of HRT– and

one

of them is improvement in overall skin condition. What are your thoughts

on

HRT in general? I’m concerned for her well being. Thanks, Lisa

Response:

"Marilee" <marilee_…@hotmail.com

wrote in message

news:9vap2k$e50cc$1@ID-76373.news.dfncis.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tishy <ti…@cheerful.com

wrote in message

> news:0jih1ucild6l2pdvbuq0kdmgmnnatqgn5g@4ax.com… > > If this is a genuine concern for your mother, see > > www.oxford.net/~tishy/goingonhrt.html > > That said, I strongly doubt your motives since your email address > > leads to a company which says: > > "We develop brands that not only capture mindshare but develop lead > > generation and qualifications as well as return on investment. beyond > > that, we infuse every campaign with unparallel insight into the > > patient perspective" > > If that weren’t enough, how about: > Damn, you’re good, Tishy. I didn’t even -check- this for a spammer….. > Marilee

here here – well done Tishy — Val [take one away to email] http://www.geocities.com/brimfasthouse/ Knowing others is Wisdom, knowing yourself is Enlightenment. -LaoTzu

Response:

Tishy says:

That said, I strongly doubt your motives

You go, Tishy! Regards, Laura Blanchard lblanch…@aol.com http://menopause.tripod.com (Land o’Links) http://members.aol.com/lblanch000/

Response:

My mother is 61 and post-menopausal.Last night she told me that she is considering being involved in a medical research study. The study is trying to determine the effects of HRT on slowing-down age-related skin laxity and wrinkling. Would any of you ever consider participating in a medical research study taking HRT for this reason? Apparently there’s a lot of hope surrounding the benefits of being on this particular dose of HRT– and one of them is improvement in overall skin condition. What are your thoughts on HRT in general? I’m concerned for her well being. Thanks, Lisa

Response:

"Lisa" <lisa.catal…@bbkhealthcare.com

wrote in message

news:9vage3$j5t$1@news.harvard.net…

My mother is 61 and post-menopausal.Last night she told me that she is considering being involved in a medical research study. The study is

trying

to determine the effects of HRT on slowing-down age-related skin laxity

and

wrinkling. Would any of you ever consider participating in a medical research study taking HRT for this reason? Apparently there’s a lot of

hope

surrounding the benefits of being on this particular dose of HRT– and one of them is improvement in overall skin condition. What are your thoughts

on

HRT in general? I’m concerned for her well being. Thanks,

No, I would not take part in a study regarding skin and HRT. There are risks with taking HRT and ,(in my opinion), they far outweigh the possible benefits on skin. I take estrogen (hysterectomy with ovaries removed) and it hasn’t improved my skin. In fact, the dryness has gotten worse, not better. Not to mention the hives certain estrogen caused. Gwen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Lisa

Response:

If this is a genuine concern for your mother, see www.oxford.net/~tishy/goingonhrt.html That said, I strongly doubt your motives since your email address leads to a company which says: "We develop brands that not only capture mindshare but develop lead generation and qualifications as well as return on investment. beyond that, we infuse every campaign with unparallel insight into the patient perspective" If that weren’t enough, how about: "Patient Recruitment …….Our tremendous success for patient recruitment for clinical research studies…. ………. our strength in patient recruitment grows out of ten years experience in direct-to-consumer marketing….." Tishy On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:11:17 -0500, "Lisa" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<lisa.catal…@bbkhealthcare.com

wrote: My mother is 61 and post-menopausal.Last night she told me that she is considering being involved in a medical research study. The study is trying to determine the effects of HRT on slowing-down age-related skin laxity and wrinkling. Would any of you ever consider participating in a medical research study taking HRT for this reason? Apparently there’s a lot of hope surrounding the benefits of being on this particular dose of HRT– and one of them is improvement in overall skin condition. What are your thoughts on HRT in general? I’m concerned for her well being. Thanks, Lisa

Response:

"DWest1023" <dwest1…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20020510202547.04419.00012444@mb-fi.aol.com…

I agree with all you said. Even if a women decides not to take

HRT, there are

STILL other things she can do to alleviate problems.

What things have you discovered in your researching and interviewing that guarantee that a woman will feel perfectly, um, "normal" during the perimenopausal years? Marilee – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Don JW Watchtower

Response:

"DWest1023" <dwest1…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20020510190218.02602.00010326@mb-dh.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >"DWest1023" <dwest1…@aol.com

wrote in message

> >news:20020510055002.02375.00001259@mb-fp.aol.com… > >> I guess men and women will never see eye to eye. Men from Mars, women > >> fromVenus…. I understand perfectly what the gentlemen is try to say. > >Whathe > >> said was,because his wife is going through menopause she has become > >difficult > >> to the point of him not wanting to be around her, and losing romantic > >feelings > >> for her. I wish I could lose feelings for my wife until she is finish this

journey or phase of life. It hurts when you find your wife change ALL

OF A

SUDDEN. Would I be happy if my wife took HRT? Well if it ever comes to that, it will be her choice, but if it does, to my wife what HRT does to his,

I

certainly will not argue! So my male friend be glad you got the easy

way

out. I’m seem to be going the natural route and let me tell you, it is HELL. Don Okay, *you* take the hot flashes that are preceded by the jitters & total lack of concentration – sometimes at the rate of several per hour, *you* deal w/ night sweats, *you* deal w/ -knowing- you’re irritable &/or moody

&

it bothers yourself as much as it does others (maybe more), *you* deal

with

tinnitus & hypersensitivity to noises, *you* deal with flooding & huge clots, *you* deal w/ never knowing when a period, flood, or spotting’s

going

to show up – or not show up, *you* go through bouts of severe cramping

that

are beyond-one’s-threshold-of-pain, *you* deal with unexpected zits

Category Categories: Celebrex Drug Warning | No Comments »

Diabetes drug warning?

Question:

Two weeks ago I started to have chest pain after 10 minutes of stationary bicycle. I then, from my own free will, stop taking actos. After which I passed the stress test along with the Ultra sound video of my heart. Both tests were ok. Now I am awaiting for a dye test to find out where the restriction could be?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last week on CNN I saw that a warning had been issued concerning two diabetes drug. CNN did not mention the name of the drug. I visited their site and I ended up the the US drug warning. The list was too long and I did not see current diabetes drug. Maybe someone else did? I’ve seen recent warnings for both Actos and Avandia. I can’t remember all of the particulars, but I think it was about congestive heart failure and use with insulin. Can’t even remember where I saw this information, but I think it was a Canadian site. — Type 2 http://www.redshift.com/~juliebove/

Response:

Well, that doesn’t sound good! But I don’t think you should stop taking it without calling your Dr. first. Hope the dye test turns something up. — Type 2 http://www.redshift.com/~juliebove/

Response:

While waiting for the dye test I am using Intensive Diabetes Management (IDM).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two weeks ago I started to have chest pain after 10 minutes of stationary bicycle. I then, from my own free will, stop taking actos. After which I passed the stress test along with the Ultra sound video of my heart. Both tests were ok. Now I am awaiting for a dye test to find out where the restriction could be? Well, that doesn’t sound good! But I don’t think you should stop taking it without calling your Dr. first. Hope the dye test turns something up. — Type 2 http://www.redshift.com/~juliebove/

Response:

Last week on CNN I saw that a warning had been issued concerning two diabetes drug. CNN did not mention the name of the drug. I visited their site and I ended up the the US drug warning. The list was too long and I did not see current diabetes drug. Maybe someone else did?

Response:

I’ve seen recent warnings for both Actos and Avandia. I can’t remember all of the particulars, but I think it was about congestive heart failure and use with insulin. Can’t even remember where I saw this information, but I think it was a Canadian site. — Type 2 http://www.redshift.com/~juliebove/

Response:

Category Categories: Celebrex Drug Warning | No Comments »

New to group

Question:

"Brenda L." wrote:

I am currently about 8-10 pounds above my lowest point, not being real strict with myself.

I think you’ve done remarkably well, since your surgery. There’s no getting around middle age rearing it’s head, but I see that you are coming to terms with that.

I have recently (about a week) decided to quit all HRT for a while just to see what happens…. so far…. so good.. No hot flashes, no problems and I feel a lot less bloated.

I did, too. I’m glad you are feeling better.

My Dr. tried to put me on meds for depression and I flat refuse to take it. Yes, I am depressed but it is a symptom of "something" not the be all end all.

You have a good attitude.

I also feel better mentally this week (off HRT) despite some really traumatic upheavals in my family.

Good for you. I hope things settle down with your family. I also felt dramatically better emotionally, off HRT. I am still intact, by the way. Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ

Response:

Hi Karen, Since you are only taking Premarin/Estrace estrogen drugs, did you have a hysterectomy and did they also take out your ovaries? This is an important threshold question so sorry for being so blunt right up front. A lot of the things you mention that you are experiencing are not things that estrogen drugs are "authorized (by the FDA) to "fix". There seems to be a general misunderstanding that a hormone drug is a universal answer to all of the highly variable things that can happen at midlife for women and men. This is just one aspect of the over-selling of these types of medical drugs which in fact are showing to have only a very limited range of usefulness. More usefulness if they are in fact a true replacement for missing glands, but of greater detriment we are learning if they are used to over-load the body’s own system of hormone regulation. Hope you can visit a volunteer website some of the members here have put together that has collected a lot of important information we have been able to gather as well as being a place to explore many of the areas of concern and questioning that still exist about this whole topic. You can find it at: www.oxford.net/~tishy/beyond.html Welcome, J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Karen McLendon wrote in message <8728cq$og…@nntp1.atl.mindspring.net

… Hi, I am new to this group and have several questions. I am 43 years old and had been taking Premarin .625mg for the previous

year.

Last month my doctor switched my medication to Estrace due to absolutely no libido and continuation of hot flashes/night sweats. So, I’ve been taking it for almost 2 months. The Estrace has definitely helped with both but I wonder what this medication will do to my body long term. I’ve been kind of fuzzy brained lately and thought that was odd – why all of a sudden? Also, since I am overweight, I have been trying to lose weight for the previous year and am having no luck. Could this be due to the HRT? How long does the period of hot flashes/night sweats last? Am I doomed to take this medication forever? As a side note, I was also given Zoloft to help with depression that occurred at the same time the hot flashes

started.

Will I also have to take this forever? Are there alternatives to these medications? What would happen if I just didn’t take them? Will I ever be able to lose weight and keep it off? I would appreciate any advice or suggestions. Thanks! Karen

Response:

Yes, when I was 22 years old, I had an emergency hysterectomy due to Endometriois(sp?) – one of my ovaries actually ruptured because of the endo. My surgeon removed that ovary, uterus, & cervix. Up until the fall of 1998, I have been doing ok with the remaining ovary. Thanks for the website – I’ll look there in hopes of finding answers. Karen

Response:

Karen McLendon wrote:

Also, since I am overweight, I have been trying to lose weight for the previous year and am having no luck. Could this be due to the HRT? How long does the period of hot flashes/night sweats last? Am I doomed to take this medication forever? As a side note, I was also given Zoloft to help with depression that occurred at the same time the hot flashes started. Will I also have to take this forever?

Karen – I am convinced that being on HRT is a very big part of the inability to lose weight. I had lost 38 pounds in the 6 months before my hysterectomy. I was in great shape and had a great recovery, started walking and exercising as soon as I had my Drs. okay. I was on Estratest at the time. I was okay leveling off but about 6 months after I wanted to lose about 10 more pounds (had gained back only about 2-3 pounds). I simply tightened up on the "diet" I was successful using to lose and maintaing and "knew " that I would have no trouble continuing to lose. Could not lose a bit. I began to get really stringent with dieting and exercising and still could not drop below my plateau. I worked really really hard and still couldn’t lose. I switched to just estrogen some where along the way and still couldn’t lose. I am currently about 8-10 pounds above my lowest point, not being real strict with myself. I have recently (about a week) decided to quit all HRT for a while just to see what happens…. so far…. so good.. No hot flashes, no problems and I feel a lot less bloated. I may gear up for another go at weight loss and see If I can make it happen now that I am off HRT. My Dr. tried to put me on meds for depression and I flat refuse to take it. Yes, I am depressed but it is a symptom of "something" not the be all end all. I also feel better mentally this week (off HRT) despite some really traumatic upheavals in my family. Just my 2 bits worth. Brenda

Response:

Hi, I am new to this group and have several questions. I am 43 years old and had been taking Premarin .625mg for the previous year. Last month my doctor switched my medication to Estrace due to absolutely no libido and continuation of hot flashes/night sweats. So, I’ve been taking it for almost 2 months. The Estrace has definitely helped with both but I wonder what this medication will do to my body long term. I’ve been kind of fuzzy brained lately and thought that was odd – why all of a sudden? Also, since I am overweight, I have been trying to lose weight for the previous year and am having no luck. Could this be due to the HRT? How long does the period of hot flashes/night sweats last? Am I doomed to take this medication forever? As a side note, I was also given Zoloft to help with depression that occurred at the same time the hot flashes started. Will I also have to take this forever? Are there alternatives to these medications? What would happen if I just didn’t take them? Will I ever be able to lose weight and keep it off? I would appreciate any advice or suggestions. Thanks! Karen

Response:

In article <pqwD4.22598$mf.1725…@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net

,

Madelyn S. Bolt <lynb…@worldnet.att.net

wrote: Hi all, I’m new to this newsgroup as I just recently figured out on my own what was going on with me. I’m 49 and perimenopausal. I have had almost every symptom EXCEPT hot flashes.

Well, look at it this way: Maybe you won’t get them! Some women don’t, or get only mild/occasional ones.

I feel that you are a very knowledgeable group. I sense some dissention on the subject of HRT, I would be interested in knowing what seems to be the best way you have found for dealing with this phase of life.

I think it would be fair to say that many of us here disagree with what seems to be a medical trend to automatically prescribe HRT (or anything else) for women of a certain age, as if these were vitamins we all ought to be taking. Most of us don’t have problems with women making informed choices to take these in the short term drugs for relief of specific symptoms — although we’ll be glad to point out when you’re talking about symptoms that don’t respond to hormone treatment. It’s not a magic pill. I can deal

with most of it, but not the depression. I have nothing in my life to be depressed about right now and the depression attack I had this past Thursday just about did me in. I thought I was going to die on the spot. It lasted about 3 hours and finally passed, but it scared the bejesus out of me. I’ve been a somewhat anxious person all of my life, but not depressed. I should also mention that I have a neurotic horror of taking medications, but have forced myself to take Prevacid for the past 3 weeks for the GERD problems I’ve been having recently.

If I were suffering from serious and persistent depression, I’d see a doctor about that and perhaps – depending on the severity – ask about short-term treatment with one of the newer antidepressants. There’s no evidence that hormone treatment will help with depression; the progesterone side of the equation (which is necessary if you’re taking estrogen and still have a uterus) is known to *cause* depression in some women. My own approach is to deal with the symptoms, if they are especially troublesome, in the most direct and least risky way possible. Like you, I’m not nuts about taking pills – but I feel the same way about taking "natural" products unless I’ve thoroughly researched their possible risks and benefits. So I’ve been using strategies such as increasing my water consumption, getting at least mild excercise as often as possible and eating a healthier diet, all of which have helped make most of my own symptoms easier to deal with. You should probably know that the natural progesterone creams – at least the over-the-counter ones – have a pretty bad reputation here, partly because they inevitably seem to be pushed by fly-by-night Web sites that sell a lot of overpriced and notoriously unreliable products. You can read some of our previous discussions of the subject at http://www.oxford.net/~tishy/mlm.html Best wishes, and welcome to alt.support.menopause. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

Joan Livingston" writes: If you are well, stay that way and don’t tamper with these drugs.

Joan, could you please define what you mean by "well" ? thanks, Martha

Response:

rufie…@rcn.com (rufie) writes:

In article <38DED6AF.B852B…@interaccess.com, HomemakerJ <ho…@interaccess.com wrote: You can rest easy. There is no particular reason that you need to medicate your menopause at all. It is just a life transition, just like puberty. Oh lord….it is much easier than puberty ( shudder) . I wouldn’t go through being 13 again for all the tea in China ( although my 13 year old is handling it all rather well!).

I think it’s easier to be menopausal in our generation than it was to be pubertal. While dopey and idiotic ideas abound about menopause, I think there were more about puberty and especially menstruation when I was going through puberty, and the social stigma attached to any overtly messy sign of femininity was either really greater, or bore harder on a younger less experienced person. That said, I have to say that the one thing I really miss about puberty is the energy. I was NOT exhausted. I was miserable in various ways and perplexed and suicidal one hour and ecstatic the next and I had terrible cramps and bleeding, but good heavens did I have energy. I suppose I used it all up then. *sigh* — Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (p…@demesne.com) "I will open my heart to a blank page and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet wrote:

rufie…@rcn.com (rufie) writes: In article <38DED6AF.B852B…@interaccess.com, HomemakerJ <ho…@interaccess.com wrote: It is just a life transition, just like puberty. Oh lord….it is much easier than puberty ( shudder) . I wouldn’t go through being 13 again for all the tea in China ( although my 13 year old is handling it all rather well!). That said, I have to say that the one thing I really miss about puberty is the energy. I was NOT exhausted. I was miserable in various ways and perplexed and suicidal one hour and ecstatic the next and I had terrible cramps and bleeding, but good heavens did I have energy. I suppose I used it all up then. *sigh*

I encountered that pubertal energy at dinner tonight. My son and I, who are very close, and have up until tonight been very sympatico about hormones, were having a discussion about computers. He was fighting back tears of impatience and I was fanning myself trying not to react to all of his energy. Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ

Response:

In article <38DED6AF.B852B…@interaccess.com

, HomemakerJ

<ho…@interaccess.com

wrote: You can rest easy. There is no particular reason that you need to

medicate your

menopause at all. It is just a life transition, just like puberty. Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ

Oh lord….it is much easier than puberty ( shudder) . I wouldn’t go through being 13 again for all the tea in China ( although my 13 year old is handling it all rather well!).

Response:

Always be sure to check out if the person recommending these powerful drugs has had a surgical menopause or not. And if they even take these drugs themselves, and if they don’t, why not? There is very little to justify these drugs or using them in an experimental way in this current hit-or-miss fashion, particularly for the intact woman who has to take two drugs, one intentionally layered to prevent cancers caused by the first one. What kind of drug offer is that ….to make you feel better? Read up carefully and be a bit humbled about the almost total lack of facts to justify these drugs use. If you are well, stay that way and don’t tamper with these drugs. J Windsong <fishh…@hotcom.net

wrote in message

news:61DD4.7235$Og6.1665199@tw12.nn.bcandid.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Madelyn S. Bolt <lynb…@worldnet.att.net

wrote in message

> news:pqwD4.22598$mf.1725545@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net… > > Hi all, > > I’ve been having recently. I’m willing however to give some form of HRT a

shot, preferably a natural estrogen & progesterone cream. I thank you

advance for your combined wisdom. ================= You’ll read all kinds of information on this NG and we do have several anti-HRT women here who will try to scare you to death about taking these hormones. And some women do seem to have a problem taking them. Either

the

dose is wrong or they simply don’t do well on any dose or type. Other

women

swear by HRT and claim it gave them their lives back. As for

depression….

it probably depends on what’s causing it. If the night sweats, headaches, mood swings, loss of libido (whatever) are causing the depression and HRT relieves these distressing symptoms then the depression may or will lift. If your symptoms become difficult to deal with, and you find it all depressing, you can always try HRT. See if it works for you. The best person to prescribe them is a gynecologist/endocrinologist. — Carol… Q. What do they call "Hee Haw" in kentucky? A. "Lifestyles of the rich and famous." ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~

Response:

(Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet) wrote: And of course menopause is like puberty in some respects, but it isn’t puberty. It’s the other side of everything.

Yup and I always told my husband that if he were real lucky I would be going through meno as our daughter goes through puberty and I was right… so we often have two emotional roller coasters here… Martha

Response:

In article <20000328181621.24346.00001…@ng-fh1.aol.com

,

mrsmeis…@aol.com (MrsMeister) wrote:

(Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet) wrote: And of course menopause is like puberty in some respects, but it isn’t puberty. It’s the other side of everything. Yup and I always told my husband that if he were real lucky I would be going through meno as our daughter goes through puberty and I was right… so we often have two emotional roller coasters here… Martha

Raises hand….. Me too!! although I must say my daughter is having the easiest puberty I have ever seen…. she is one mellow kid. Ruth, proud of said kid who got the highest grade in her science class today…

Response:

HomemakerJ <ho…@interaccess.com

writes: Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet wrote: That said, I have to say that the one thing I really miss about puberty is the energy. I was NOT exhausted. I was miserable in various ways and perplexed and suicidal one hour and ecstatic the next and I had terrible cramps and bleeding, but good heavens did I have energy. I suppose I used it all up then. *sigh* I encountered that pubertal energy at dinner tonight. My son and I, who are very close, and have up until tonight been very sympatico about hormones, were having a discussion about computers. He was fighting back tears of impatience and I was fanning myself trying not to react to all of his energy.

Oh dear. Well, that’s a very common parent/child interaction — sometimes even when energy levels are the same there’s still impatience vs experience. 8-) And of course menopause is like puberty in some respects, but it isn’t puberty. It’s the other side of everything. — Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (p…@demesne.com) "I will open my heart to a blank page and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World"

Response:

Hi Lynn and welcome! What a cute web site with those border terrier puppies!! Im very much like you, I have had very few hot flashes ( really only rare mild flushing) but the dizziness, anxiety and depression are my most troubling symptoms. Everyone is different… I tried HRT and failed miserably,, it made my depression so much worse that I was border line suicidal. As far as my anxiety goes, I have always been a somewhat nervous person but now I am experiencing full blown panic attacks… I chose to treat these conditions with an anti depressant and an anxiety medication as needed. I am much better than I was but still monthly even though I have not had a period in 10 months ( and keeping my fingers crossed) I still get symtomatic for a week or so…. if you have not been to a gynocologist in a long time, that would be a good starting point just to get everything checked out. You really need to make the decisiion of how bad your symptoms are and what risks you take trying HRT… and you need to do your own research. Most gynocologists tend towards rushing into HRT… whereas I found my internist, cardiologist and endocrinologist did not give the same endorsement.. good luck and welcome! Martha

Response:

Hi Lyn, Welcome to a.s.m. "Madelyn S. Bolt" wrote:

I just recently figured out on my own what was going on with me. I’m 49 and perimenopausal.

Hey, pretty good. So, how do you feel about this? Alot of women think they are "too young".

I have had almost every symptom EXCEPT hot flashes.

I have, too, but not all at once and most of them not very bad.

The anxiety and depression and stomach problems were what finally sent me on my search for information.

There are women on this newsgroup with experience in all these things. I have had some anxiety from time to time, usually when I get totally frustrated with a symptom, but not to the point of panic attacks. I seem to do better with just a little reassurance at such times. Depression, I feel was the worst during my three sessions with taking HRT. The third time in particular had me walking around like a tearful zombie. Other issues that caused me depression were losing my youth, until I took the time to mourn it and move on, and when I went through a phase where I pretty much had PMS three out of four weeks, and a lousy period besides. That left me three or four days a month to feel well. Fortunately, I outgrew that phase. I haven’t really had stomach problems such as GERD, but I did have a spell of about a year and a half where I couldn’t eat pizza without feeling like I was going to die and wondering which end of me to stick in the toilet first. And, I have had many forms of abdominal pain from going through peri-menopause. Tenderness, cramps, bloating.

I also never had PMS, cramps, etc. I was one of the lucky ones, now it’s payback time, LOL.

Not necessarily. After all, you are already 49 and are just considering peri-menopause, whereas some of us have been attributing changes in our body to it since our late thirties. Peri-menopause is a process that takes some time. Years, usually. Symptoms come and they go, of their own accord, with or without medication. *Average* age of full menopause is 52, so, you may find, by comparison that actually you are just breezing on through. If you get very specific about how you are feeling and what is going on with your body on this newsgroup, you will be offered an assortment of remedies, many of them free and common sense, as well as the usual drug therapies. For me, the best medicine has just been finding a group of women to pass the time with while I experience these changes in my own body. There is great comfort in hearing that others know what you are talking about and have been there and done that themselves. It relieves quite a bit of the anxiety involved.

I sense some dissention on the subject of HRT,

This newsgroup stays very up to date on the various hormone replacement therapies. You will see the latest studies, and the latest opinions. The apparent dissention comes mostly from new women joining the group who have not had benefit of following the progress of the hormones and their effects as reported on the newsgroup, and who have not seen the progression of the study results. And, of course, opinion will always vary, just as each woman’s menopausal journey does. Another important point to differentiate in your own mind when reading posts is who has had a hysterectomy and who has not. They have different needs and different approaches that are most appropriate. I have not had a hysterectomy. If you are interested in the information someone posts and you don’t know, just ask them.

I would be interested in knowing what seems to be the best way you have found for dealing with this phase of life.

I have tried HRT, vitamin and herbal therapies and in the end, came around to just letting my body do what it knows best to do. When I tried a therapy, I usually found that either I got a side effect, or that upon further reading, I had some complicating factors that made me not an appropriate person to be taking the therapy. For instance, I have fibroids, and wish to avoid anything estrogenic, so as not to encourage them to grow. Often, when I added a drug, it felt like I just further confused my already changing body. So, for me, the best coping mechanism has been checking in everyday to read the newsgroup, using common sense approaches such as drinking lots of water, and often getting caught up in someone else’s peri-menopausal questions which got my mind off my own. Peri-menopause is not always comfortable, sometimes painful, and very enlightening. I have gained much good from the experience. Currently I am getting alot of joy from thinking how long ago it was that I had some of the symptoms that posters are currently complaining about. It makes me feel that I have been through the worst.

I can deal with most of it, but not the depression. I have nothing in my life to be depressed about right now and the depression attack I had this past Thursday just about did me in. I thought I was going to die on the spot. It lasted about 3 hours and finally passed, but it scared the bejesus out of me.

Do you have someone you can call or talk to at such times? I’ve found that reassurance, rather than answers is what helps me.

I should also mention that I have a neurotic horror of taking medications,

You can rest easy. There is no particular reason that you need to medicate your menopause at all. It is just a life transition, just like puberty. Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ

Response:

Hi and welcome, Have you looked at the drug warning list for side effects for the drug you are presently taking. Depression can be a side effect of many of them, so check this out first. Also HRT is about the last drug you would want to play around with for depression, particularly progesterone -a well reported side-effect of this drug is depression. And the drug label clearly states it is not to be used for "emotional" problems as it has not been shown to be of any value. Also there is no known real benefit between a "natural" version over any other form simply because there has been so little testing of any forms of these drugs. Some studies show the "natural forms" cause more breast cancer, and others show the "natural" forms have different impacts on blood lipids. It is a very mixed bag, with little help from the scientific sector. More will be learned in the future, but some legitimate tests are only getting started now. BTW: the real term is "bio-identical" not "natural" because none of these drugs are "natural" and this sometimes makes them sound like they are safer or better. No proof. They are drugs and need to be used in efficacious ways for specific concerns. "Melancholia" is a commonly reported sign of the menopause transition time, which in fact seems more and more to be a midlife transition time as we learn more and more about what happens to men too. We share almost all of the same midlife signs, including hot flashes and night sweats. Only the fact that our periods stop makes our "menopause" unique. It has been discussed in the past here that a theory on "transitions" follows certain predictable steps. The first being a period of mourning, then a period of chaos, and then finally a new beginning. One author went so far as to state that they simply could not be taken out of order and that all were important and that all needed to be honored. We have little ritual or understandings about how to incorporate the "mourning" phase of this transition. By accepting that a melacholia state (non-pathological) is of equal value and insight in our lives would help a lot. But this too often gets labeled as a negative state (non-pathological) and is either dismissed as "not normal" or given ready drugs to elminate (very high use of anti-depressant drugs today without proper diagnosis). Many women find this is a time for more tears, more feelings, more raw emotions. This is not necessarily bad, but it can come as a surprise if life was an even keel prior to this transition time .It is kind of like puberty in reverse and our bodies and minds adjust to new realities. A lot of these types of discussion along with other good information, research and links can be found on a website one of our members had put together. I hope you can visit it , see some of our favorites books to read that help a lot, and join in the discussion. Knowlege is power here and that alone can be the best first thing to do. Website: http://www.oxford.net/~tishy/beyond.html Best wishes, J Madelyn S. Bolt <lynb…@worldnet.att.net

wrote in message

news:pqwD4.22598$mf.1725545@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hi all, I’m new to this newsgroup as I just recently figured out on my own what

was

going on with me. I’m 49 and perimenopausal. I have had almost every symptom EXCEPT hot flashes. The anxiety and depression and stomach

problems

were what finally sent me on my search for information. I haven’t been to the gynecologist in years, as a matter of fact, I’ve never had one. I’m currently single and never had children, so I never thought it necessary.

also never had PMS, cramps, etc. I was one of the lucky ones, now it’s payback time, LOL. I’ve been reading the posts for the past day or so

and

I feel that you are a very knowledgeable group. I sense some dissention

the subject of HRT, I would be interested in knowing what seems to be the best way you have found for dealing with this phase of life. I can deal with most of it, but not the depression. I have nothing in my life to be depressed about right now and the depression attack I had this past

Thursday

just about did me in. I thought I was going to die on the spot. It

lasted

about 3 hours and finally passed, but it scared the bejesus out of me.

I’ve

been a somewhat anxious person all of my life, but not depressed. I

should

also mention that I have a neurotic horror of taking medications, but have forced myself to take Prevacid for the past 3 weeks for the GERD problems I’ve been having recently. I’m willing however to give some form of HRT a shot, preferably a natural estrogen & progesterone cream. I thank you in advance for your combined wisdom. — Lyn Bolt Email: lynb…@worldnet.att.net Web Page: http://mx8.xoom.com/Borderdog.1/BORDERDOGS/ Earthdog Message Board: http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb800771 Le renard rouge rapide a saut

Category Categories: Celebrex Drug Warning | No Comments »

evista

Question:

Has anyone taken evista and if so how was it? Good or bad please post experiences I am thinking about starting it. I am post meno and have hashis-hypothroidism. Thanks paulette

Response:

In article <MYJB5.18535$td5.2997…@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com

,

"Paulette" <pschm…@home.com

wrote: Has anyone taken evista and if so how was it? Good or bad please post experiences I am thinking about starting it. I am post meno and have hashis-hypothroidism. Thanks paulette

You can learn more about any drug you may be offered from your pharmacist who should give you an FDA drug warning statement. Get the doctor’s version, not the "patient information" brochure as that is ususally worthless. Or you can visit: http://www.rxlist.com and go to the blue hyperlinked name of the drug on the LEFT-HAND side of the page for this same information. Again, the "patient information" part on this website is pretty useless. There seems to be a current sales trend going on to treat any possible loss of bone density that can be associated with taking supplemental thyroid medications like Synthroid – another drug to look up on rxlist.com. If this is the case, you may want to go back to the source and determine if you still need to take supplmental thyroid based upon the best information you can find today. Otherwise, this starts "drug- layering" which can often lead to even more side-effects and consequences that may need more drugs or more treatment. Hypo-thyroid is a very vague condition and has auto-immune elements to it so continuing to treat it and its consquences with more and more drugs may not be the best path to be on. Please discuss this with your doctor. Evista is getting a lot of publicity, but this can not make up for its problems and lack of long-term studies, particularly with something like thyroid medication induced "osteoporosis." If you know how to search on Medline from the NIH.gov website, you may be able to pull up some good studies that can help you decide what you may want to do when you discuss all of this with your doctor. Joan Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

On Sun, 01 Oct 2000 16:51:56 GMT, "Paulette" <pschm…@home.com

wrote:

Has anyone taken evista and if so how was it? Good or bad please post experiences I am thinking about starting it. I am post meno and have hashis-hypothroidism. Thanks paulette

Hi Paulette, I have no personal experience with Evista but I thought you might find this online article of interest. It is a review of what was know about raloxifene and it’s effects on various parts of the body up tp to May 1998. Annals of Internal Medicine, 2 March 1999 CLINICAL REVIEWS Clinical Effects of Raloxifene Hydrochloride in Women Weerapan Khovidhunkit, MD; and Dolores M. Shoback, MD http://www.annals.org/issues/v130n5/full/199903020-00008.html If you are concerned about low bone density you might also like to read the NIH Osteoporosis Prevention, diagnosis and therapy Consensus Statement that came out of a conference held in March of this year. It mentions Evista. http://odp.od.nih.gov/consensus/cons/111/111_statement.htm Kathryn kathr…@telus.net

Response:

On Sun, 01 Oct 2000 16:51:56 GMT, "Paulette" <pschm…@home.com

wrote:

Has anyone taken evista and if so how was it? Good or bad please post experiences I am thinking about starting it. I am post meno and have hashis-hypothroidism. Thanks paulette

I just found out on another forum about an FDA warning letter sent to Eli Lilly the maker of Evista about one of their advertisments. So I went to the FDA website to gets the information from the source so to speak. http://www.fda.gov/cder/warn/sep2000/dd9307.pdf Which is a pdf file and I can’t cut and paste and I don’t have time to go back and forth to do a good summary well here is one sentence which sums up the whole IMO. "The advertisment is misleading because it mischaracterizes the nature of osteoporosis, resulting in an overstatement of Evista’s benefits" IOW we are not going to fall apart and perhaps die becuase of bone thinning after menopause despite what this ad implies. If you read the letter on the url above make sure you scoll down at the end to see the copy of the ad in question. It is the ad with a woman sitting on the sidelines at a wedding waving off someone asking her to join in the dancing and with the caption "Imagine not being able to do…..the things you love" Kathryn kathr…@telus.net.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -kathr…@telus.net wrote:

On Sun, 01 Oct 2000 16:51:56 GMT, "Paulette" <pschm…@home.com wrote: Has anyone taken evista and if so how was it? Good or bad please post experiences I am thinking about starting it. I am post meno and have hashis-hypothroidism. Thanks paulette I just found out on another forum about an FDA warning letter sent to Eli Lilly the maker of Evista about one of their advertisments. So I went to the FDA website to gets the information from the source so to speak. http://www.fda.gov/cder/warn/sep2000/dd9307.pdf Which is a pdf file and I can’t cut and paste and I don’t have time to go back and forth to do a good summary well here is one sentence which sums up the whole IMO. "The advertisment is misleading because it mischaracterizes the nature of osteoporosis, resulting in an overstatement of Evista’s benefits"

Oh, this *is* juicy, Kathrn. Here, let me do a little more of the typing for you: "This advertisement is misleading because it implies that Evista is useful for a broader population than that for whiich it is indicated. For example, the claim `If you’re past menopause you should know about Evista’ creates a misleading impression that all postmenopausal women will develop osteoporosis. However, menopause alone does not cause osteoporosis and only those with risk factors are candidates for Evista therapy." This sure sounds familiar … –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

In article <19990513181550.11233.00000217@ng- fp1.aol.com

,

louell…@aol.comnoQjunk (Louella42) wrote:

Is anyone taking evista (raloxifene)? I

switched from Vivelle patch

w/progesterone and, after severe withdrawal, am

doing pretty well after

increasing anti-depressant and pain pills.

Hi, Recently, we have had discussions about Evista so if you can research the archives of this newsgroup, you can see what we were able to learn. There are a few who have/are taken/taking this drug but the problem is that no one so far has taken it for very long. It is pretty new still so we will learn about it as we go along. The FDA website can be of help as they post what they call "post-marketing" information on newly released drugs. j –== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==– —Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.—

Response:

Thanks so much. Will research how to research this newsgroup.

Response:

Is anyone taking evista (raloxifene)? I switched from Vivelle patch w/progesterone and, after severe withdrawal, am doing pretty well after increasing anti-depressant and pain pills.

Response:

On 13 May 1999 22:15:50 GMT, louell…@aol.comnoQjunk (Louella42) wrote:

Is anyone taking evista (raloxifene)? I switched from Vivelle patch w/progesterone and, after severe withdrawal, am doing pretty well after increasing anti-depressant and pain pills.

Gahhh, is that pretty well? You must feel you need to use this drug. Are you concerned about bone density? You might be interested in this news story on Fosomax. ( I don’t know if this would be any better though ) http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/990510/pa_merck_f_1.html

Monday May 10, 8:00 am Eastern Time Company Press Release SOURCE: Merck & Co., Inc. Fosamax(R) Prevented Rapid Bone Loss In Women Who Discontinued Hormone Replacement Therapy MAASTRICHT, The Netherlands, May 10 /PRNewswire/ — There are two times in a woman’s life when she may be more likely to experience rapid bone loss: in the three to five years following cessation of menses when there is a decline in her own hormones associated with menopause; or if she is using hormone replacement therapy (HRT) for treatment of menopausal symptoms, bone loss is likely to be accelerated when she discontinues this therapy.

[etc etc ] Kathryn droz…@home.com

Response:

Hi. I’m new to this group, so if this has already been discussed, please tolerate my ignorance…. My period ended in December 99. In May of ‘00 I started having pain in my shoulder. After MRI and trying different types of drugs, Neuorosurgeon and Ortho said I needed surgery to remove disk fragment that lodged against my nerve close to spinal chord. Had surgery, using bone from hip to replace disk, and pain went away. Surgery was a big pain in the ass — plus I got a staph infection from the hip wound and had to have a line put in my arm and dose myself with antibiotices 3 times a day for a month. Got better eventually. Then, new general doctor suggested I take evista to prevent bone loss. I started taking it, hot flashes got worse and I gained a few pounds. Went on a diet (ate only lean cuisine and yogurt), got back on treadmill and have lost most of the weight. My question is: I haven’t been taking the evista daily, and I feel okay. I’m wondering if I should keep taking it. Does anyone have any experience with evista? Thanks, Stella

Response:

On Sun, 08 Jul 2001 17:50:01 GMT, "Stella" <sya…@earthlink.net

wrote:

My question is: I haven’t been taking the evista daily, and I feel okay. I’m wondering if I should keep taking it. Does anyone have any experience with evista?

I have no personal experience of it Stella – and there is no chance at all that I ever will. If you’d like to know why that is, read www.oxford.net/~tishy/ralox.html and its related links. Having read the contents, you may agree with my decision, or you may not If you don’t have any specific personal risk factors but are just going along with a doctor who subscribes to the notion of inevitable bone fragility after meno, then you may be interested in the article _Is Osteoporosis a Menopausal Disease?_ at www.oxford.net/~tishy/menoosteo.html Best wishes, Tishy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Stella wrote:

Hi. I’m new to this group, so if this has already been discussed, please tolerate my ignorance…. My period ended in December 99. In May of ‘00 I started having pain in my shoulder. After MRI and trying different types of drugs, Neuorosurgeon and Ortho said I needed surgery to remove disk fragment that lodged against my nerve close to spinal chord. Had surgery, using bone from hip to replace disk, and pain went away. Surgery was a big pain in the ass — plus I got a staph infection from the hip wound and had to have a line put in my arm and dose myself with antibiotices 3 times a day for a month. Got better eventually. Then, new general doctor suggested I take evista to prevent bone loss. I started taking it, hot flashes got worse and I gained a few pounds. Went on a diet (ate only lean cuisine and yogurt), got back on treadmill and have lost most of the weight. My question is: I haven’t been taking the evista daily, and I feel okay. I’m wondering if I should keep taking it. Does anyone have any experience with evista? Thanks, Stella

Hi, Stella – No experience with evista, but a few questions – did your doctor prescribe evista because of your spinal surgery – did he/she think the chipped disk was due to osteoporosis? Have you had any diagnostic tests for osteoporosis? Or was the prescription based on ‘evista as a preventative, just in case’? FurPaw

Response:

Category Categories: Celebrex Drug Warning | No Comments »

Drug Warning !

Question:

Please read this before you get worried. This is a warning that came with my newest laxative. It is the powder form of Lactolose , and it goes by the name Kristalose. Before the warning I will state that it is very effective and produced 4 B.M.s in 24 hrs. Anyway, I quote "A theoretical hazard may exist for patients being treated with Lactulose who may be required to undergo electrocautery procedures during proctoscopy or colonoscopy. Accumulation of H2 gas in significant concentration in the presence of an electrical spark may result in an explosive reaction " Talk about unfreezing that old " opiate colon ". Who discovered this ? Talk about rectum , heck it probably damn near killed ‘em. Peace, Richard

Response:

I think this will make a very interesting science fair project for my children. We were going to try the "strawberry Pop-Tarts in the toaster flame-thrower" but it’s been done too many times. I don’t think colonic hydrogen ignition has been done before, although I had college roommates who were quite adept at flatus combustion after eating Mexican food using only a lit match. The real problem will be how to make a display that won’t get us arrested for indecency and/or violation of local fire codes. Naturally, if we win a prize you will get full attribution, including number of "B.M.s". Before you buy.

Response:

We used to call them "Blue Angels". They seem to ignite very well threw light weight track pants. Caution, have a water supply handy for extinguishing the one that got away. My kids get a kick when I ignite and set the "Blue Angel" free. Please don’t tell my wife, her sense of humor is in a different plane and can not see the educational factor. Rob Hartley

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think this will make a very interesting science fair project for my children. We were going to try the "strawberry Pop-Tarts in the toaster flame-thrower" but it’s been done too many times. I don’t think colonic hydrogen ignition has been done before, although I had college roommates who were quite adept at flatus combustion after eating Mexican food using only a lit match. The real problem will be how to make a display that won’t get us arrested for indecency and/or violation of local fire codes. Naturally, if we win a prize you will get full attribution, including number of "B.M.s". Before you buy.

Response:

Please don’t tell my wife, her sense of humor is in a different plane

and can not see the educational factor. Man, you too? I have never understood how women fail to appreciate dangerous amateur pyrotechnics. If more little girls got to experience the joy of putting an M-80 in a mailbox or flushing a cherry bomb down the toilet in the school lavatory there would be better understanding between the sexes. Heck, I got in trouble just for telling my 8 year old to stop doing homework and play more Diablo II (only a level 3 Sorceress, can you believe it?). How is a person going to compete in tomorrow’s marketplace if they don’t know how to use the Horadric Cube to transmute jewels or augment skeleton mages with the skeleton mastery curse? Algos (level 31 Necromancer) Before you buy.

Response:

I don’t get involved in the video game thing too much. My six year old doesn’t have the patients to teach me. I only like the games that allow me to blow stuff up. The only games that I am good at are Fury and Nascar Racing. I can’t wait till Halloween! My little kids are of age to be introduced to the trick part of trick or treat! They will have expert instruction and have to qualify by surviving the rigors of the three day, mandatory training course being held at a undisclosed location. I have to keep this a covert operation, I hope you understand. Be Well. Rob Hartley

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please don’t tell my wife, her sense of humor is in a different plane and can not see the educational factor. Man, you too? I have never understood how women fail to appreciate dangerous amateur pyrotechnics. If more little girls got to experience the joy of putting an M-80 in a mailbox or flushing a cherry bomb down the toilet in the school lavatory there would be better understanding between the sexes. Heck, I got in trouble just for telling my 8 year old to stop doing homework and play more Diablo II (only a level 3 Sorceress, can you believe it?). How is a person going to compete in tomorrow’s marketplace if they don’t know how to use the Horadric Cube to transmute jewels or augment skeleton mages with the skeleton mastery curse? Algos (level 31 Necromancer) Before you buy.

Response:

is this the colors of a vet, trying to put patriotism back????? could be….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t get involved in the video game thing too much. My six year old doesn’t have the patients to teach me. I only like the games that allow me to blow stuff up. The only games that I am good at are Fury and Nascar Racing. I can’t wait till Halloween! My little kids are of age to be introduced to the trick part of trick or treat! They will have expert instruction and have to qualify by surviving the rigors of the three day, mandatory training course being held at a undisclosed location. I have to keep this a covert operation, I hope you understand. Be Well. Rob Hartley Please don’t tell my wife, her sense of humor is in a different plane and can not see the educational factor. Man, you too? I have never understood how women fail to appreciate dangerous amateur pyrotechnics. If more little girls got to experience the joy of putting an M-80 in a mailbox or flushing a cherry bomb down the toilet in the school lavatory there would be better understanding between the sexes. Heck, I got in trouble just for telling my 8 year old to stop doing homework and play more Diablo II (only a level 3 Sorceress, can you believe it?). How is a person going to compete in tomorrow’s marketplace if they don’t know how to use the Horadric Cube to transmute jewels or augment skeleton mages with the skeleton mastery curse? Algos (level 31 Necromancer) Before you buy.

Response:

Category Categories: Celebrex Drug Warning | No Comments »

comments on recent reports of estrogene and it's benefits

Question:

I’ve just watched another medical report on CNN about the recent studies showing the medical benefits of estrogen replacement. They are saying not only is it effective in preventing bone loss, but also in preventing the onset of diabeties and heart diease. They quote studies, statistics, etc. For some reason, they are really pushing this. The research, from what I can see, is extensive, and varied. Being sponsored by both bias, and unbias organizations. Any thoughts or more info on this? Gina Marie

Response:

On 02 Sep 2000 13:39:00 GMT, marie10…@aol.com (MARIE10502) wrote:

I’ve just watched another medical report on CNN about the recent studies showing the medical benefits of estrogen replacement. They are saying not only is it effective in preventing bone loss, but also in preventing the onset of diabeties and heart diease. They quote studies, statistics, etc. For some reason, they are really pushing this. The research, from what I can see, is extensive, and varied. Being sponsored by both bias, and unbias organizations. Any thoughts or more info on this? Gina Marie

Gina what is the doctor’s name on this CNN program? Did you happen to catch it? I am so curious. I tried to follow up on the memory and estrogen item you mentioned two weeks ago and all I could find was the Yaffe study published last week in The Lancet and that was about endogenous estrogen levels not ERT. I suggest you read the recent August 27 Gina Kolada article from the NYTimes reflecting on how these past studies have been turned upside down.. I just tried the url I posted last week and it still worked, a site search with the word estrogen will bring up this story also. http://www.nytimes.com/library/review/0827000sci-estrogen-review.html

LIKE A PLACEBO How Estrogen Gained a Healthy Skepticism By GINA KOLATA

<small quote

The heart disease story is also a lesson in scientific evidence, experts said. As scientists and the public seize upon indirect evidence for other effects, like the current hope that estrogen may prevent Alzheimer’s, they might do well to remember how clear estrogen’s effects on the heart once appeared. "We thought it was very likely that heart disease risk would be reduced and that therefore those most at risk should take estrogen," Dr. Grady said. "Now, I think that’s wrong."

Kathryn droz…@home.com

Response:

It was most likely a WebMD program. They (CNN) use them as "fillers" occasionally for slow news days. They’re not "news". Here are a few links for articles of dubious accuracy from the WebMD site: http://my.webmd.com/content/dmk/dmk_article_40047 Under General Guidelines: "Women currently can expect to live thirty or forty years of their life in the postmenopausal state. The lower amount of estrogen during these decades puts them at greater risk for cardiovascular disease, osteoporosis, and possibly even Alzheimer’s disease. Hormone replacement therapy is proving to reduce many of these risks, but obtaining specific health benefits depends on the selection of the appropriate hormone therapy. Estrogen replacement therapy (ERT) uses estrogen alone, called unopposed estrogen, to combat diseases related to estrogen loss, particularly heart disease and osteoporosis. Unfortunately, ERT significantly increases the risk for endometrial (uterine) cancer. Women who have had hysterectomies are generally good candidates, then, because their uteruses have been removed. Hormone replacement therapy (HRT) combines estrogen with natural progesterone or its synthetic version, called progestin, which offsets the risk for uterine cancer. The HRT combination appears to offer benefits similar to those of ERT and is now the usual choice for many postmenopausal women who are at risk for osteoporosis or heart disease. There are a number of other considerations, however, as well as alternatives to HRT that women should discuss with their physician." Most of the ’sources’ for this paper are from 1997. Another is: http://my.webmd.com/content/dmk/dmk_article_56492 The copyright on this one is 1997. http://my.webmd.com/content/dmk/dmk_article_5963065 The above article Copyright

Category Categories: Celebrex Drug Warning | No Comments »

other symptoms

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In article <8oih7j$g1…@murdoch.harvard.net

, blr <gdr…@yahoo.com wrote: Colette wrote: had the strange head sensations and tingling/numbness/weakness in the extremities. I get the same thing. Head sensations, tingling, numbness, weakness. Feel like you have lead weights on your feet? I do. Although, lately the tinglies haven’t been that bad. <I wouldn’t call mine diziness, as in vertigo, because the room doesn’t spin. I’d call it more of a light headedness. It does feel as if it will suddenly get worse and I will faint. Yup! That’s it! It’s more of a "not really here" feeling for me, "airhead" feeling I call it….royal pain for sure! And aggravating! After being thoroughly tested by a neuro, I tried to relax. Anxiety brought it on, so he decided it played a large role, and I think perimenopause also does. Haven’t seen a neuro, but did have an MRI. Anxiety can cause lots of funny feelings.

I think this is key. One of the problems with anxiety and its physical manifestations is that it tends to form a feedback loop: You feel start focusing on the unpleasant feeling, it makes you anxious, which increases the feeling, etc., etc., etc. I realize that saying, "so don’t think about it" isn’t very helpful – it’s like when my little brother used to drive me nuts by saying, "Don’t think about a blue elephant." I’d wind up unable to think of anything else. But, personally, I’ve found that forcing myself to focus on something other than my symptoms *does* make them recede, or at least feel less threatening. And it definitely breaks that vicious feedback loop. For me, this usually means *doing* something – heading into my craft studio to work on a project, for instance, or reading a really good book. Interacting with others in some pleasant way is even better: I do a lot of community theater, and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to drag myself to rehearsal, thinking, "Oh, I really feel too lousy to do this, but I guess I have to…" only to get there, get caught up in the creative work and realize three hours later that I haven’t noticed a twinge or a hot flash – and that I’ve been having fun. Distraction can be your friend. If we wait to feel "normal" before we do things we enjoy, I think we prolong the feeling that we’re "abnormal" – not to mention missing out on a lot of precious life. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

Pat writes,

Distraction can be your friend. If we wait to feel "normal" before we do things we enjoy, I think we prolong the feeling that we’re "abnormal" – not to mention missing out on a lot of precious life.

Amen to that! Great advice Pat, it’s what I try to do. Life is too short, feeling good or not, do the things you enjoy. Most times just getting up and doing it makes you feel a lot better. Gina Marie

Response:

Colette wrote:

had the strange head sensations and tingling/numbness/weakness in the extremities.

I get the same thing. Head sensations, tingling, numbness, weakness. Feel like you have lead weights on your feet? I do. Although, lately the tinglies haven’t been that bad. <I wouldn’t call mine diziness, as in vertigo, because the room

doesn’t spin. I’d call it more of a light headedness. It does feel as if it will suddenly get worse and I will faint.

Yup! That’s it! It’s more of a "not really here" feeling for me, "airhead" feeling I call it….royal pain for sure! And aggravating! After being thoroughly tested

by a neuro, I tried to relax. Anxiety brought it on, so he decided it played a large role, and I think perimenopause also does.

Haven’t seen a neuro, but did have an MRI. Anxiety can cause lots of funny feelings.

These days I’m have heart palpitations that feel uncomfortably like my

heart

will jump out of my chest. I’ve been to doc and ER for side pains about 1 1/3 months ago, and my pulse and bp were checked many times, and

supposedly

I am normal.

I bet you are normal! Mine does the same thing…and is very annoying. Laid in bed last night and waited patiently for my heart to allow me to fall asleep.

I’m tired of feeling lousy, but yesterday I felt actually pretty peppy

and

like I could do anything.

Don’t you love those days? When you actually ALMOST feel normal? I don’t have many, but man don’t I cherish them when I have ‘em! . I am almost 52, have

never been all that sexually driven, but for the past 2 nights have had

the

strongest orgasms I’ve ever had in my life, with seemingly very little stimulation. I only mention it, because it is so rare for me to need it

two

days in a row or to have such strong orgasms. I can easily say they were the strongest/longest I’ve ever experienced.

The last orgasm I had (2 months ago) was very intense! I thought the drive was coming back for sure! That was 2 months ago…hasn’t been back since! I’m 41 in 3 weeks. Kleeo

Response:

Colette writes,

I have had the strange head sensations and tingling/numbness/weakness in the extremities. I wouldn’t call mine diziness, as in vertigo, because the room doesn’t spin. I’d call it more of a light headedness. It does feel as if it will suddenly get worse and I will faint. After being thoroughly tested by a neuro, I tried to relax. Anxiety brought it on, so he decided it played a large role, and I think perimenopause also does.

Exactly what I was feeling. Extreme lightheadedness, to the point where I thought I would faint. I too was told Anxiety brought it on. I found that to be true. I’m in perimenopause.

These days I’m have heart palpitations that feel uncomfortably like my heart will jump out of my chest.

Have that too. It’s my worse symptom. I feel like i can’t breath, a heaviness in my chest. I just have to lay there until it passes.

I’ve been to doc and ER for side pains about 1 1/3 months ago, and my pulse and bp were checked many times, and supposedly I am normal. One tech did say my heart was racing at one point when he checked me at the ER, but I was in a lot of pain and fear because I was waiting for a kidney stone test to come back. BTW, didn’t have any.

Sounds so familiar. Was your pain on the left side? Mine was. I was told it was from my cystic ovaries. I have PCO on top of being in peri so it complicates things. And the worse is being told by the doctors that you’re a normal, healthy woman, nothing physically wrong and yet we feel awful with all these symptoms!

I’m tired of feeling lousy, but yesterday I felt actually pretty peppy and like I could do anything. I am ovulating.

I have times of the month where I feel peepy. And its’ been over a year that I’m dealing with feeling lousy most of the time. I actually have gone through a couple of good months, then the lousy feeling again. Though for me, I get more symptomatic, (I think) when I’m ovulating. I get this snotty discharge, and heavey fatigue, lightheadedness, palpitations and anxiety/depression.

Also, and this is pretty personal, the only sex I’ve had for about 12 years is the occasional round with self, if you know what I mean, and only that around ovulation when I felt intense sexual tension.

I too get periods when I get sexually aroused and it amazes me that I can feel so awful and be aroused! It usually happens when my husbands at work too, so I know what you mean. (smile) Gina Marie

Response:

Just want to say thanks for sharing. I have found so few women who have experienced the same feelings going through this. I appreciate your taking the time to share your experience. I too, look forward to the day when "this too shall pass." AMEN. Spankee * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

In article <155ccc6c.09b8d…@usw-ex0107-049.remarq.com

,

spankee <bartorilloNObaS…@gci.net.invalid

wrote: Just want to say thanks for sharing. I have found so few women who have experienced the same feelings going through this. I appreciate your taking the time to share your experience. I too, look forward to the day when "this too shall pass." AMEN. Spankee

You are taking hormone drugs. Side-effects like you report if they aare caused by the hormone drugs …will not pass…. they could be serious the way you are describing them. Please read your drug information sheet. They sound like things you should be immediately reporting to your doctor. Please take care, Joan

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Response:

I have never taken ERT or HRT in any form, except soybeans ,etc. but I have had the strange head sensations and tingling/numbness/weakness in the extremities. I wouldn’t call mine diziness, as in vertigo, because the room doesn’t spin. I’d call it more of a light headedness. It does feel as if it will suddenly get worse and I will faint. After being thoroughly tested by a neuro, I tried to relax. Anxiety brought it on, so he decided it played a large role, and I think perimenopause also does. These days I’m have heart palpitations that feel uncomfortably like my heart will jump out of my chest. I’ve been to doc and ER for side pains about 1 1/3 months ago, and my pulse and bp were checked many times, and supposedly I am normal. One tech did say my heart was racing at one point when he checked me at the ER, but I was in a lot of pain and fear because I was waiting for a kidney stone test to come back. BTW, didn’t have any. I’m tired of feeling lousy, but yesterday I felt actually pretty peppy and like I could do anything. I am ovulating. Also, and this is pretty personal, the only sex I’ve had for about 12 years is the occasional round with self, if you know what I mean, and only that around ovulation when I felt intense sexual tension. I am almost 52, have never been all that sexually driven, but for the past 2 nights have had the strongest orgasms I’ve ever had in my life, with seemingly very little stimulation. I only mention it, because it is so rare for me to need it two days in a row or to have such strong orgasms. I can easily say they were the strongest/longest I’ve ever experienced. This is odd at a time when I would think my drive would be dissapearing. Too bad that I am single and celibate, as I could probably enjoy a partner at this time. I’d get married again if I found the right guy, but sex outside of marriage doesn’t fall within my religious perimeters. Please don’t judge me for the aforementioned info., just anecdotal evidence that there is still (can be) sex after 50. — Colette tr…@one.net http://w3.one.net/~truth http://www.agapefellowshipchurch.org "spankee" <bartorilloNObaS…@gci.net.invalid

wrote in message

news:1cfd0236.029098e0@usw-ex0107-049.remarq.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I am 49 years old and have been in full menopause for over a year now. I had hot flashes and night sweats. Am now taking ERT and am comfortable. I have symptoms I never hear any one else talking about. Like dizzy spells, weakness in arms and legs, joint pain, shoulder pain, and sometimes just all out fatigue. Sometimes I just feel like I want to pass out. It passes sometimes in a few minutes sometimes in a few hours. For awhile I thought I had some terminal illness, but I have had all kinds of tests and rule that out. My doctor is convinced this is all menopausal. I’m active–walk, run and weight train regularly. Is anyone else experiencing these kinds of symptoms or know anyone who has?? I’d be really interested to hear from you. Thanks. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network

The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

In article <0956f820.03488…@usw-ex0104-028.remarq.com

, lblanch000

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<lblanch…@aol.com

wrote: spankee <bartorilloNObaS…@gci.net.invalid wrote: I am 49 years old and have been in full menopause for over a year now. I had hot flashes and night sweats. Am now taking ERT and am comfortable. ERT, as in estrogen only, no progesterone? Have you had a hysterectomy? Women who still have their uterus are usually advised to take a progesterone as well, to protect against uterine cancer. Regards, Laura Blanchard, lblanch…@aol.com – http://members.aol.com/lblanch000/ (personal page) http://menopause.tripod.com/ (Land o’Links) ———————————————————– Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Yes, I’m taking a combination of estrogen and progestin and a little testosterone in the mix. I had all these symptoms before I started taking any medication. I just feel better know I’m not alone. Thanks. Spankee * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Hey, don’t look a gift horse in the mouth! It’s there, it’s free, it’s safe….enjoy the hell out of it. (I know you’re a minister, so if I sound like the snake talking to Eve, don’t listen to me, but I mean what I say from the bottom of my heart.) Eva

This is very witty, Eva! I have my own theory about this occasional wild ride in peri–I think sometimes there’s a super jolt of just the right mix of libido-charging hormones. Jackie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Colette wrote:

I have never taken ERT or HRT in any form, except soybeans ,etc. but I have had the strange head sensations and tingling/numbness/weakness in the extremities. I wouldn’t call mine diziness, as in vertigo, because the room doesn’t spin. I’d call it more of a light headedness. It does feel as if it will suddenly get worse and I will faint. After being thoroughly tested by a neuro, I tried to relax. Anxiety brought it on, so he decided it played a large role, and I think perimenopause also does. These days I’m have heart palpitations that feel uncomfortably like my heart will jump out of my chest. I’ve been to doc and ER for side pains about 1 1/3 months ago, and my pulse and bp were checked many times, and supposedly I am normal. One tech did say my heart was racing at one point when he checked me at the ER, but I was in a lot of pain and fear because I was waiting for a kidney stone test to come back. BTW, didn’t have any.

I’ve had all of those symptoms, plus a ringing in my ear that exacerbates the light-headedness. Its very aggravating and can be downright debilitating if you let it get to you. Sometimes I have to take a Xanax just to get one foot in front of the other and get to work. Mine tends to crop up within two weeks of my ’scheduled’ period. Sound familiar? Rebecca

Response:

Thanks Eva D. I guess I should be more careful what I say with my ministry and my churche’s websites attached after my signature, huh? — Colette tr…@one.net http://w3.one.net/~truth http://www.agapefellowshipchurch.org "Eva D. Struction" <EvaDSt…@att.net

wrote in message

news:lTPq5.2105$On2.96188@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Colette <tr…@one.net wrote in message news:39ab9c7a_2@news2.one.net… ….I am almost 52, have never been all that sexually driven, but for the past 2 nights have had the strongest orgasms I’ve ever had in my life, with seemingly very little stimulation. I only mention it, because it is so rare for me to need it two days in a row or to have such strong orgasms. I can easily say they

were

the strongest/longest I’ve ever experienced. This is odd at a time when

would think my drive would be dissapearing…. —————– Hey, don’t look a gift horse in the mouth! It’s there, it’s free, it’s safe….enjoy the hell out of it. (I know you’re a minister, so if I sound like the snake talking to Eve, don’t listen to me, but I mean what I say from the bottom of my heart.) Eva

Response:

I tried progesterone once. Made me homicidal.

Response:

spankee <bartorilloNObaS…@gci.net.invalid

wrote: I am 49 years old and have been in full menopause for over a

year now.

I had hot flashes and night sweats. Am now taking ERT and am comfortable.

Does this mean you had a surgical menopause? There is a private email group called "SurgiPause" that is run by one of the members of this newgroup that you may want to look into as they have a lot of first hand experience with surgical menopause and you can ask questions in private that you may not feel comfortable talking about in public. You can find this group on www.onelist.com and look for "SurgiPause. The use of estrogen drugs and placebo seem to have a lot in common according to new studies so sometime time alone can be your best friend with "menopause". But if you have had your ovaries removed, then ERT may be the best thing for you with the universal drug ethic: the smallest dose for the shortest period of time. I have symptoms I never hear any one else talking about.

Like dizzy spells, weakness in arms and legs, joint pain,

shoulder

pain, and sometimes just all out fatigue. Sometimes I just

feel like I

want to pass out. It passes sometimes in a few minutes

sometimes in a

few hours. For awhile I thought I had some terminal illness,

but I

have had all kinds of tests and rule that out.

This is always a concern when you are taking estrogen drugs because we now have it confirmed from the WHI study that within the first two years of taking these drugs, including HRT, that women have more reports of blood clots, strokes and heart attacks when compared to women taking a placebo. One needs to be alert to mini-strokes when taking HRT. Do you have any other risk factors? Can you lower your dose? Does your doctor know about this Preliminary WHI findings? He/she can look it up at the NIH website or looking for the Women’s Health Initiative study. One needs to be very aware of this sort of event happening within the first few years of starting HRT. The new drug warning labels discuss the risk factors for cardio-vascular disease when taking HRT with more emphasis today. Which is really critical because one still reads too many media reports saying there is a "heart benefit" when taking HRT when in fact it is now being found to be just the opposite. Make sure your doctor is aware of this HRT concern and that you symptoms do not get written off as "just menopause". When you are taking HRT in any form, or OCs as are now getting widely sold to pre-meno women, you are no longer having "just menopause". You now are having a serious drug experience that is counter programming "just menopause" and any symptoms you get after starting these drugs needs serious attention, not dismissal by uninformed doctors. You are taking major drugs now. These are serious known risks and side-effects to be watching out for. Your doctor should know this and I would recommend sitting down with the "doctors" FDA warning sheet and go over this line by line with him/her. Joan My doctor is convinced

this is all menopausal. I’m active–walk, run and weight train regularly. Is anyone else experiencing these kinds of symptoms

or know

anyone who has?? I’d be really interested to hear from you.

Thanks.

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s

Discussion Network *

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Usenet – Free!

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Response:

I am 49 years old and have been in full menopause for over a year now. I had hot flashes and night sweats. Am now taking ERT and am comfortable. I have symptoms I never hear any one else talking about. Like dizzy spells, weakness in arms and legs, joint pain, shoulder pain, and sometimes just all out fatigue. Sometimes I just feel like I want to pass out. It passes sometimes in a few minutes sometimes in a few hours. For awhile I thought I had some terminal illness, but I have had all kinds of tests and rule that out. My doctor is convinced this is all menopausal. I’m active–walk, run and weight train regularly. Is anyone else experiencing these kinds of symptoms or know anyone who has?? I’d be really interested to hear from you. Thanks. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

In article <1cfd0236.02909…@usw-ex0107-049.remarq.com

,

spankee <bartorilloNObaS…@gci.net.invalid

wrote: I am 49 years old and have been in full menopause for over a year now.

Just checking, because we hear different definitions of "full menopause" here — am I right in assuming it’s been over a year since your last period?

I had hot flashes and night sweats. Am now taking ERT and am comfortable. I have symptoms I never hear any one else talking about. Like dizzy spells, weakness in arms and legs, joint pain, shoulder pain, and sometimes just all out fatigue. Sometimes I just feel like I want to pass out. It passes sometimes in a few minutes sometimes in a few hours.

These are all signs that have been reported here and elsewhere as coinciding with the change. We sometimes refer to "crashing fatigue" — a sensation I’ve described as feeling as if someone had turned gravity on "high," where it’s almost too much effort to pick up my feet and walk across the room. So you’re not alone, disconcerting as this all may be. Interestingly, shoulder pain is one of the *main* symptoms reported by menopausal Japanese women, who reportedly mention hot flashes only rarely, if at all. There’s a handy list of "menopause symptoms" at http://www.howdyneighbor.com/menopaus/symptoms.htm that was put together by a large group of women reporting on things they’d experienced. Don’t think of it as a diagnostic tool (this isn’t an illness, after all), but it may give you some reassurance that what you’re experiencing has, indeed, been experienced by others.

For awhile I thought I had some terminal illness, but I have had all kinds of tests and rule that out. My doctor is convinced this is all menopausal.

This is actually good news, IMO – we hear about a lot of doctors who don’t acknowledge that these sorts of signs can be part of the whole meno package.

I’m active–walk, run and weight train regularly.

Great! So now that you’ve had yourself checked out and evidently received a clean bill of health, relax. The good news is that most of us find these things pass. Personally, I felt my own phase of crashing fatigue was my body telling me to slooooow down a little and catch my breath – it came at a time when I was truly trying to do too much, and as disconcerting as it was, it did force me to sort out what was really important and what I could let slide. I’m back to my "normal" energy levels now (though I’m not as active as you are), and even experiencing occasional surges of the famous "menopausal zest" I keep hearing about. Best wishes, and welcome to a.s.m. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

In article <8n966e$kc…@news.NERO.NET

, kig…@ucs.orst.edu (Pat

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Kight) wrote:

In article <1cfd0236.02909…@usw-ex0107-049.remarq.com, spankee <bartorilloNObaS…@gci.net.invalid wrote: I am 49 years old and have been in full menopause for over a year now. Just checking, because we hear different definitions of "full menopause" here — am I right in assuming it’s been over a year since your last period? I had hot flashes and night sweats. Am now taking ERT and am comfortable. I have symptoms I never hear any one else talking about. Like dizzy spells, weakness in arms and legs, joint pain, shoulder pain, and sometimes just all out fatigue. Sometimes I just feel like I want to pass out. It passes sometimes in a few minutes sometimes in a few hours. These are all signs that have been reported here and elsewhere as coinciding with the change. We sometimes refer to "crashing fatigue" — a sensation I’ve described as feeling as if someone had turned gravity on "high," where it’s almost too much effort to pick up my feet and walk across the room. So you’re not alone, disconcerting as this all may be. Interestingly, shoulder pain is one of the *main* symptoms reported by menopausal Japanese women, who reportedly mention hot flashes only rarely, if at all. There’s a handy list of "menopause symptoms" at http://www.howdyneighbor.com/menopaus/symptoms.htm that was put together by a large group of women reporting on things they’d experienced. Don’t think of it as a diagnostic tool (this isn’t an illness, after all), but it may give you some reassurance that what you’re experiencing has, indeed, been experienced by others. For awhile I thought I had some terminal illness, but I have had all kinds of tests and rule that out. My doctor is convinced this is all menopausal. This is actually good news, IMO – we hear about a lot of doctors who don’t acknowledge that these sorts of signs can be part of the whole meno package. I’m active–walk, run and weight train regularly. Great! So now that you’ve had yourself checked out and evidently received a clean bill of health, relax. The good news is that most of us find these things pass. Personally, I felt my own phase of crashing fatigue was my body telling me to slooooow down a little and catch my breath – it came at a time when I was truly trying to do too much, and as disconcerting as it was, it did force me to sort out what was really important and what I could let slide. I’m back to my "normal" energy levels now (though I’m not as active as you are), and even experiencing occasional surges of the famous "menopausal zest" I keep hearing about. Best wishes, and welcome to a.s.m. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Pat, Yes, you assume correctly–I haven’t had a period in over a year. Thank you for sharing your experience with me. I really appreciate hearing from other women that there is hope. AMEN. Spankee * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

spankee <bartorilloNObaS…@gci.net.invalid

wrote: I am 49 years old and have been in full menopause for over a

year now.

I had hot flashes and night sweats. Am now taking ERT and am comfortable.

ERT, as in estrogen only, no progesterone? Have you had a hysterectomy? Women who still have their uterus are usually advised to take a progesterone as well, to protect against uterine cancer. Regards, Laura Blanchard, lblanch…@aol.com – http://members.aol.com/lblanch000/ (personal page) http://menopause.tripod.com/ (Land o’Links) ———————————————————– Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

You have described me! I have many of the same symptoms that you are having. Also been through a bunch of tests; all which came back fine. Pretty scarey at times, eh? Some months are better than others. Some months I would just like to crawl into a hole and stay there. The "crashing fatigue" that you’ll hear mentioned probably explains the tiredness and weakness that we exprience. I’ll just be glad when it’s over and I can say I’ve "been there, done that!" Good luck to you, Kleeo ———————————————————– Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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