Question:

thank you karen for the tip…. i thought when they said "half a day" that i would be walking out in 4 hours ready to go to work…..  guess i have to plan to take a day to get over the anesthesia. did you have an endometrial biopsy under anasthesia?  and if so what can you tell me about it — have a great day…. addis "Karen Kay" <ka…@wordwrite.com

wrote in message

news:8f1hhj$af$5@samba.rahul.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

addis <addi…@hotmail.com wrote: He said I would have to be anesthetized to do it and that means to go to the hospital for 1/2 day. Don’t count on doing anything else that day–the anesthesia will really knock you out. Karen

Response:

gs <he…@rest.net

wrote in message

news:422B537A8A5852ED.19C873888D49F056.BB7BC1AD1635CA40@lp.airnews.net…

I had a transvaginal ultrasound, and the results were inconclusive.  Later

I

had the endometrial biopsy.  I took 2 Advil 30 minutes prior to the procedure.  Afterwards, I had mild cramping. Gwen I have a high pain threshold.

I *thought* I had a high pain threshold, having dealt with killer-cramps & whopping tooth infections for many years, but after trying to deal w/ that endometrial biopsy, I don’t know!   Cathy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Ralf <smgNOsmS…@bestweb.net.invalid

wrote in message

> > news:02ac6c7e.006a7929@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com… > > > Hi- > > > [Pls let me know if you know of a better forum for this > > > question.] > > > My ObGyn wants to do an ultrasound and endometrial biopsy. Based > > > on my recent experiences with cervical biopsies and LEEP > > > procedures, I’m *very* reluctant to have an endometrial biopsy > > > unless it’s absolutely necessary. > > > I had a conization which came back clear. When I went for my > > > follow-up, my doctor (the one who performed the conization) > > > asked when I last had my period. If she’d checked her records, > > > she’d have known it was at least a year and a half ago. She said > > > there was some bleeding and wanted to schedule an ultrasound and > > > biopsy for that day. I told her I wasn’t prepared for that and > > > wanted to reschedule it. > > > I’ve had sporadic, infrequent and very light spotting since I’ve > > > been on hormone therapy (Prempro, for the past year). Is that > > > enough of a symptom to warrant an endometrial biopsy? I’m > > > frankly scared to death of it, since my cervical biopsies were > > > extremely painful, and my doctor made no mention of using > > > anaesthesia. > > > I read somewhere online that an ultrasound is at least as > > > effective as a diagnostic procedure, and since it’s non-invasive > > > I would obviously much prefer going with that alone first. > > > If post-menopausal bleeding is a symptom of something serious, > > > could someone please define it further for me? I generally > > > detect no discharge of any kind, but I do occasionally have, as > > > I said, very light bleeding. In addition to the recent LEEP and > > > conization procedures, I had a colposcopy within the last few > > > weeks, and had 6 benign polyps removed. > > > For those of you who have had endometrial biopsies: did you have > > > an anaesthetic for the procedure? I had a local for my LEEP and > > > was still in considerable pain throughout. > > > Any opinions/suggestions would be most appreciated. > > > TIA- > > > Susan > > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion > Network > > * > > > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

"Cathy Friedmann" <c…@borg.com

wrote in message

news:3910c6e4.0@nntp2.borg.com… > gs <he…@rest.net

wrote in message

> news:422B537A8A5852ED.19C873888D49F056.BB7BC1AD1635CA40@lp.airnews.net… > > I had a transvaginal ultrasound, and the results were inconclusive. Later

I had the endometrial biopsy.  I took 2 Advil 30 minutes prior to the procedure.  Afterwards, I had mild cramping. Gwen I have a high pain threshold. I *thought* I had a high pain threshold, having dealt with killer-cramps & whopping tooth infections for many years, but after trying to deal w/ that endometrial biopsy, I don’t know!   Cathy

My doctor kept elling me that I didn’t have to be brave! Seems that he was having a hard time, since my uterus was so retroverted. It wasn’t much compared to the cramps I’d always had. My *pain* thing is dangerous, I don’t *know* how much is too much pain. So now I make my doctor nervous! Gwen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > Ralf <smgNOsmS…@bestweb.net.invalid

wrote in message

> > > news:02ac6c7e.006a7929@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com… > > > > Hi- > > > > [Pls let me know if you know of a better forum for this > > > > question.] > > > > My ObGyn wants to do an ultrasound and endometrial biopsy. Based > > > > on my recent experiences with cervical biopsies and LEEP > > > > procedures, I’m *very* reluctant to have an endometrial biopsy > > > > unless it’s absolutely necessary. > > > > I had a conization which came back clear. When I went for my > > > > follow-up, my doctor (the one who performed the conization) > > > > asked when I last had my period. If she’d checked her records, > > > > she’d have known it was at least a year and a half ago. She said > > > > there was some bleeding and wanted to schedule an ultrasound and > > > > biopsy for that day. I told her I wasn’t prepared for that and > > > > wanted to reschedule it. > > > > I’ve had sporadic, infrequent and very light spotting since I’ve > > > > been on hormone therapy (Prempro, for the past year). Is that > > > > enough of a symptom to warrant an endometrial biopsy? I’m > > > > frankly scared to death of it, since my cervical biopsies were > > > > extremely painful, and my doctor made no mention of using > > > > anaesthesia. > > > > I read somewhere online that an ultrasound is at least as > > > > effective as a diagnostic procedure, and since it’s non-invasive > > > > I would obviously much prefer going with that alone first. > > > > If post-menopausal bleeding is a symptom of something serious, > > > > could someone please define it further for me? I generally > > > > detect no discharge of any kind, but I do occasionally have, as > > > > I said, very light bleeding. In addition to the recent LEEP and > > > > conization procedures, I had a colposcopy within the last few > > > > weeks, and had 6 benign polyps removed. > > > > For those of you who have had endometrial biopsies: did you have > > > > an anaesthetic for the procedure? I had a local for my LEEP and > > > > was still in considerable pain throughout. > > > > Any opinions/suggestions would be most appreciated. > > > > TIA- > > > > Susan > > > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion > > Network > > > * > > > > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – > Free!

Response:

Joan Livingston wrote:

Who was it that said "uterine cancer was easy to cure"? Thanks for finding this. Now can we discuss ‘easy"?

In this context, easy to cure, and highly curable, mean that if it is caught early, before it spreads, it can be cured with a hysterectomy (plus ovaries and tubes).   "Easy" is relative to other invasive cancers.  But it ain’t like having a mole removed. FurPaw

Response:

Ultrasound/endometrial biopsy? From: J.Prescott joannapresc…@cableinet.co.uk You have a local anaesthetic first and then it’s no worse than mild menstrual cramps.  The worse thing is trying not to fart for 10 minutes

Hee hee…now THAT sounds difficult!!! Sharon,grinning

Response:

(Terri) vl-hb…@erols.com wrote:

Dr Rich will also answer questions via email, so you might ask him about the differences in rates. I’ve always found him to be extremely helpful when I can’t find the studies for the exact questions I’m asking.

Thanks – I may try that.  A cursory medline search only turned up one article on differences in rates of EC for HRT vs no HRT postmenopausally, and that one reported them as small and tentative (not enough data).

One more thing, (and you can tell me to go to hell if you want) – if you had known that hysterectomy with BSO was the treatment for endometrial cancer if you got it, would it have given you pause before you started taking the hormones? Did you know/were you informed  that the combined, continuous regimen was pretty much untested for safety with respect to the endometrium over the long term before you started taking it?

I don’t mind answering, if you don’t tell me to go to hell for my answers 8-). What I thought I knew when I began taking HRT was that there was a slight additional risk of EC, presumably brought back to near the non-HRT rate by the addition of Provera.  It must have been ‘true’ because I had heard it so often, in so many different ways and places.  I was NOT aware of the lack of research on this topic.  I think I did know that hysterectomy/BSO was the treatment for EC, but I didn’t think I was *adding* any risk for EC by taking Premarin with Provera.  That assumption may or may not be correct – as you said, it’s largely untested for safety.   I also knew that I have other risk factors for both BC and EC:  early menstruation (age 11), no children, no breast feeding, overweight.  So I did not – and do not – attribute EC solely to HRT.  It probably didn’t help, but then again, I might have gotten EC without HRT.  Or maybe not.     I also have to add that as far as I was concerned, cancer was something that *other people* get.  I wasn’t even aware that I had this attitude until *I* got it.  Another part of my brain tells me that cancer of *some* kind is probably inevitable – after all, I do live in New Jersey, where ‘they’ claim that breathing is the equivalent of smoking a pack of cigarettes a day @!#&! Knowing that the long-term risks of HRT hadn’t been tested would have had more influence on my decision to take HRT than knowing that there was a small increase in risk of cancer – depending on the size of that risk, of course.  I hadn’t planned on taking HRT forever, but I did believe it was well researched. FurPaw

Response:

HI- I very much appreciate all of your comments. Based on what I’ve read here and after some further research, I’ve decided to go ahead with the biopsy, albeit reluctantly. I still have a couple of questions: – For those of you who’ve had LEEPs, how would you compare the "discomfort" to what you experienced with the endometrial biopsy? At the risk of sounding like a real wimp, I basically could not tolerate the LEEP, even with a local anaesthetic, and my doctor finally gave up and prescribed a conization under a general anaesthetic. I got a 2nd opinion at that point, then proceeded with the conization. The results came back clear. I don’t want to bail out of the biopsy, so it sounds like I should take *several* Tylenol prior to it and maybe not plan to work that day; also probably arrange for a ride home. – I’ve been told that there’s some stenosis of the cervix, which I interpret to mean that the opening to the uterus is small. Nothing was passed through (beyond) the cervix for the LEEP, but since that was extremely painful, even with a local, I’m concerned that the EB is going to send me through the roof. This might be one of the factors in determining why the experience is so different for different women. [BTW, something I find very annoying about some doctors and their assistants and/or nurses is their tendency to dismiss fears about procedures or the pain involved. There are some things that really do hurt, but you're told things like "this might pinch" or "you'll feel some mild cramping". Hah. I was hospitalized a few years ago for a subarachnoid hemmorhage and got really tired of hearing "this won't hurt" just before they stuck needles up my groin and pumped chemicals through my bloodstream. I finally got sick of it and asked "Have you ever had this done?". No, but somehow they knew it wouldn't hurt.] – I still have a question about post-menopausal "spotting" in general. As you might imagine, I’ve been monitoring this very closely since my doctor prescribed the biopsy, and haven’t seen any sign of any bleeding or discharge in the past 10 days or so, and can’t say that I noticed anything before that for quite some time. I’ve been on PremPro for a year. Is the consensus that *any* spotting after menopause dictates a biopsy? My understanding was that bleeding stops gradually, and that there might be some even after the women starts on HRT. Thanks again for all the feedback- [BTW: I meant to say "colonoscopy", not "colposcopy" in my first message.] Susan * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

In article <3911F32B.D93E1…@home.com.TIME

,

  FurPaw <furpawSPR…@home.com.TIME

wrote:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

(Terri) vl-hb…@erols.com wrote: Dr Rich will also answer questions via email, so you might ask him about the differences in rates. I’ve always found him to be extremely helpful when I can’t find the studies for the exact questions I’m asking. Thanks – I may try that.  A cursory medline search only turned up one article on differences in rates of EC for HRT vs no HRT postmenopausally, and that one reported them as small and tentative (not enough data). One more thing, (and you can tell me to go to hell if you want) – if you had known that hysterectomy with BSO was the treatment for endometrial cancer if you got it, would it have given you pause before you started taking the hormones? Did you know/were you informed  that the combined, continuous regimen was pretty much untested for safety with respect to the endometrium over the long term before you started taking it? I don’t mind answering, if you don’t tell me to go to hell for my answers 8-).

That would be *really* stupid on more levels than I can think of. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

What I thought I knew when I began taking HRT was that there was a slight additional risk of EC, presumably brought back to near the non-HRT rate by the addition of Provera.  It must have been ‘true’ because I had heard it so often, in so many different ways and places.  I was NOT aware of the lack of research on this topic.  I think I did know that hysterectomy/BSO was the treatment for EC, but I didn’t think I was *adding* any risk for EC by taking Premarin with Provera.  That assumption may or may not be correct – as you said, it’s largely untested for safety. I also knew that I have other risk factors for both BC and EC:  early menstruation (age 11), no children, no breast feeding, overweight.  So I did not – and do not – attribute EC solely to HRT.  It probably didn’t help, but then again, I might have gotten EC without HRT.  Or maybe not. I also have to add that as far as I was concerned, cancer was something that *other people* get.  I wasn’t even aware that I had this attitude until *I* got it.  Another part of my brain tells me that cancer of *some* kind is probably inevitable – after all, I do live in New Jersey, where ‘they’ claim that breathing is the equivalent of smoking a pack of cigarettes a day @!#&! Knowing that the long-term risks of HRT hadn’t been tested would have had more influence on my decision to take HRT than knowing that there was a small increase in risk of cancer – depending on the size of that risk, of course.  I hadn’t planned on taking HRT forever, but I did believe it was well researched.

Thank you for your honest answers. I think they may help someone else making this decision by providing some of the questions to ask themselves as they make the decision. Terri

FurPaw

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

Ralf wrote:

– I still have a question about post-menopausal "spotting" in general. As you might imagine, I’ve been monitoring this very closely since my doctor prescribed the biopsy, and haven’t seen any sign of any bleeding or discharge in the past 10 days or so, and can’t say that I noticed anything before that for quite some time. I’ve been on PremPro for a year. Is the consensus that *any* spotting after menopause dictates a biopsy?

As far as I understand, yes.   From From a Gynecologic Oncology web site, http://www.gyncancer.com/uterus.html "NEVER, NEVER IGNORE POSTMENOPAUSAL BLEEDING, AND DO NOT LET YOUR DOCTOR IGNORE IT EITHER. YOU MUST PROVE THAT IT IS NOT DUE TO A UTERINE CANCER." (emphasis the author’s) FurPaw

Response:

Susan, I have had several endometrial biopsies, as I was taking ERT alone. According to my doctor I’m the only patient she’s ever had who carried on a conversation during the procedure. I did not take any medication before hand. And I don’t remember cramping after. Mild pinches during. SO everyone is different. Take an Advil or something before and go into it with the knowledge that for some it *is* very painful, but for others it is *not*. You may be somewhere in the middle. It is a very short procedure. Compared to adhesions tearing during pregnancy, it’s a dance in the park.   And reread the thread on pain and relaxing, etc. Picture yourself on a rubber mattress floating on beautiful, clear water. Feel the little waves carry you. It works. Good luck. susan, proprietress of the Whine ‘n Woeses

Response:

Hello….  I went to my appointment for the endometrial biopsy & pap smear today.  I took 2 naprosyn about 1 hour before.  The pap test went fine.  However the endometrial biopsy could not be completed.  I do not know the name of all the instruments — first he used something to keep the opening open — then he said he was going to put a little clip on the cervix and it would pinch — it pinched – minor & short.  then he kept using an instrument and other instruments which was painful and increasingly so… he said he could not get the cervix to dilate.  He was very careful and went slowly and I was able to hold still and relax as much as possible.  After about 15 minutes he said that he was not going to be able to do it — but then he decided to try it a little more if i was "up for it."  I said OK, let’s try a little more because i wanted to get it done.  He worked a little longer. But then he said that there was no use "torturing" me anymore because he was not going to be able to do it.  He said I would have to be anesthetized to do it and that means to go to the hospital for 1/2 day.  He is going to wait to see the ultrasound first and if the endometrium thickness is small — less than 4 or 5mm then maybe i won’t have the endometrial biopsy. re the discomfort — i know it is different for everyone — but for me the attempt at EMB was not without pain —- I did have an EMB 2 years ago — it was hard that time but the doctor did get the sample.                            any comments, thoughts, ideas, sharing of experiences                              will be much appreciated "Ralf" <smgNOsmS…@bestweb.net.invalid

wrote in message

news:0815a9e0.dc9323ad@usw-ex0105-040.remarq.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

HI- I very much appreciate all of your comments. Based on what I’ve read here and after some further research, I’ve decided to go ahead with the biopsy, albeit reluctantly. I still have a couple of questions: – For those of you who’ve had LEEPs, how would you compare the "discomfort" to what you experienced with the endometrial biopsy? At the risk of sounding like a real wimp, I basically could not tolerate the LEEP, even with a local anaesthetic, and my doctor finally gave up and prescribed a conization under a general anaesthetic. I got a 2nd opinion at that point, then proceeded with the conization. The results came back clear. I don’t want to bail out of the biopsy, so it sounds like I should take *several* Tylenol prior to it and maybe not plan to work that day; also probably arrange for a ride home. – I’ve been told that there’s some stenosis of the cervix, which I interpret to mean that the opening to the uterus is small. Nothing was passed through (beyond) the cervix for the LEEP, but since that was extremely painful, even with a local, I’m concerned that the EB is going to send me through the roof. This might be one of the factors in determining why the experience is so different for different women. [BTW, something I find very annoying about some doctors and their assistants and/or nurses is their tendency to dismiss fears about procedures or the pain involved. There are some things that really do hurt, but you're told things like "this might pinch" or "you'll feel some mild cramping". Hah. I was hospitalized a few years ago for a subarachnoid hemmorhage and got really tired of hearing "this won't hurt" just before they stuck needles up my groin and pumped chemicals through my bloodstream. I finally got sick of it and asked "Have you ever had this done?". No, but somehow they knew it wouldn't hurt.] – I still have a question about post-menopausal "spotting" in general. As you might imagine, I’ve been monitoring this very closely since my doctor prescribed the biopsy, and haven’t seen any sign of any bleeding or discharge in the past 10 days or so, and can’t say that I noticed anything before that for quite some time. I’ve been on PremPro for a year. Is the consensus that *any* spotting after menopause dictates a biopsy? My understanding was that bleeding stops gradually, and that there might be some even after the women starts on HRT. Thanks again for all the feedback- [BTW: I meant to say "colonoscopy", not "colposcopy" in my first message.] Susan * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network

*

The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

If you read the FDA product information on any female hormone drug, they recommend getting monitored every 3-6 months and re-evaluating the need for the medication at this time.  Uterine cancer is a major risk when taking these drugs and the new FDA guidelines put that first and foremost in a special boxed heading on the new warning sheet. They recommend the smallest dose for the shortest period of time. Do you think you still need to take this drug if you don’t like the required monitoring. It is still an experimental drug. More will be known about it in 2005 when a major study on it will be completed.     So little is known whether this  Prempro drug format will provide any endometrial protection as it comes in a form that mimics nothing in nature or any previous "natural" biological cycling, that you owe it to yourself to make sure what is going on. Even if you did not have any bleeding. Your doctor did you a disservice if s/he did not explain this to you before you decided to start.    Get him or her to go over the drug warning label line by line with you at your next visit so you thoroughly understand what it is that you are taking and for what, and at what risks and for what benefits. These drugs are not "candy" as one of our former posters who was a pharmacologist would always say. J J FurPaw <furpawSPR…@home.com.TIME

wrote in message

news:391340A3.A3E6BAB5@home.com.TIME… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Ralf wrote: – I still have a question about post-menopausal "spotting" in general. As you might imagine, I’ve been monitoring this very closely since my doctor prescribed the biopsy, and haven’t seen any sign of any bleeding or discharge in the past 10 days or so, and can’t say that I noticed anything before that for quite some time. I’ve been on PremPro for a year. Is the consensus that *any* spotting after menopause dictates a biopsy? As far as I understand, yes. From From a Gynecologic Oncology web site, http://www.gyncancer.com/uterus.html "NEVER, NEVER IGNORE POSTMENOPAUSAL BLEEDING, AND DO NOT LET YOUR DOCTOR IGNORE IT EITHER. YOU MUST PROVE THAT IT IS NOT DUE TO A UTERINE CANCER." (emphasis the author’s) FurPaw

Response:

From: Ralf smgNOsmS…@bestweb.net.invalid What is a LEEP procedure? As defined on one web site: It stands for "Loop Electrical Excision Procedure." Simply described, it is an electrical instrument with a fine metal loop at the end of a pencil-like handle. Electrical current is passed through the filament loop. As it is pulled through the tissue of the cervix, it cuts and coagulates (burns the blood vessels to keep them from bleeding) allowing for the safe removal of a good- sized piece of tissue. -Susan

Ouch! Sharon

Response:

Who was it that said "uterine cancer was easy to cure"? Thanks for finding this. Now can we discuss ‘easy"? J FurPaw <furpawSPR…@home.com.TIME

wrote in message

news:3910D409.71F212D9@home.com.TIME… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Joan Livingston wrote:   How do they cure endometrial cancer? Can they just section out the cancerous tissue and leave the uterus intact, or do they recommend

taking

out the entire uterus and cervix too ……and hope to goodness

…..they

don’t also say …."as long as we are in there……take the ovaries

too?

From a Gynecologic Oncology web site, http://www.gyncancer.com/uterus.html: (emphasis mine) "*To determine the correct stage [of the cancer]* the uterus, tubes and ovaries will have to be removed as well as sampling the pelvic and aortic lymph nodes." And "The cure rate drops by 20% if a hysterectomy is not performed."     Something to know ahead of time, part of the risk benefit analysis

for

taking something like Prempro where the uterine protection has not been established. Lots to still learn about this form of HRT. I wonder what

it

the longest anyone has been on it? I’d have to do some digging, but it would be of interest to know the EC rates for postmenopausal women who have and have not taken HRT.  I knew EC was a risk, but I hadn’t investigated what happens if you get it. One last word – again from the above web site.  The emphasis was put in by the author: "NEVER, NEVER IGNORE POSTMENOPAUSAL BLEEDING, AND DO NOT LET YOUR DOCTOR IGNORE IT EITHER. YOU MUST PROVE THAT IT IS NOT DUE TO A UTERINE CANCER." FurPaw

Response:

In article <3910D409.71F21…@home.com.TIME

,

  FurPaw <furpawSPR…@home.com.TIME

wrote:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Joan Livingston wrote:   How do they cure endometrial cancer? Can they just section out the cancerous tissue and leave the uterus intact, or do they recommend taking out the entire uterus and cervix too ……and hope to goodness …..they don’t also say …."as long as we are in there……take the ovaries too? From a Gynecologic Oncology web site, http://www.gyncancer.com/uterus.html: (emphasis mine) "*To determine the correct stage [of the cancer]* the uterus, tubes and ovaries will have to be removed as well as sampling the pelvic and aortic lymph nodes." And "The cure rate drops by 20% if a hysterectomy is not performed."     Something to know ahead of time, part of the risk benefit analysis for taking something like Prempro where the uterine protection has not been established. Lots to still learn about this form of HRT. I wonder what it the longest anyone has been on it? I’d have to do some digging, but it would be of interest to know the EC rates for postmenopausal women who have and have not taken HRT.  I knew EC was a risk, but I hadn’t investigated what happens if you get it. One last word – again from the above web site.  The emphasis was put in by the author: "NEVER, NEVER IGNORE POSTMENOPAUSAL BLEEDING, AND DO NOT LET YOUR DOCTOR IGNORE IT EITHER. YOU MUST PROVE THAT IT IS NOT DUE TO A UTERINE CANCER." FurPaw

Dr Rich will also answer questions via email, so you might ask him about the differences in rates. I’ve always found him to be extremely helpful when I can’t find the studies for the exact questions I’m asking. One more thing, (and you can tell me to go to hell if you want) – if you had known that hysterectomy with BSO was the treatment for endometrial cancer if you got it, would it have given you pause before you started taking the hormones? Did you know/were you informed  that the combined, continuous regimen was pretty much untested for safety with respect to the endometrium over the long term before you started taking it? Terri Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

What is a LEEP procedure?

As defined on one web site: It stands for "Loop Electrical Excision Procedure." Simply described, it is an electrical instrument with a fine metal loop at the end of a pencil-like handle. Electrical current is passed through the filament loop. As it is pulled through the tissue of the cervix, it cuts and coagulates (burns the blood vessels to keep them from bleeding) allowing for the safe removal of a good- sized piece of tissue. -Susan * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Joan Livingston wrote:

  How do they cure endometrial cancer? Can they just section out the cancerous tissue and leave the uterus intact, or do they recommend taking out the entire uterus and cervix too ……and hope to goodness …..they don’t also say …."as long as we are in there……take the ovaries too?

From a Gynecologic Oncology web site, http://www.gyncancer.com/uterus.html: (emphasis mine) "*To determine the correct stage [of the cancer]* the uterus, tubes and ovaries will have to be removed as well as sampling the pelvic and aortic lymph nodes." And "The cure rate drops by 20% if a hysterectomy is not performed."

    Something to know ahead of time, part of the risk benefit analysis for taking something like Prempro where the uterine protection has not been established. Lots to still learn about this form of HRT. I wonder what it the longest anyone has been on it?

I’d have to do some digging, but it would be of interest to know the EC rates for postmenopausal women who have and have not taken HRT.  I knew EC was a risk, but I hadn’t investigated what happens if you get it. One last word – again from the above web site.  The emphasis was put in by the author: "NEVER, NEVER IGNORE POSTMENOPAUSAL BLEEDING, AND DO NOT LET YOUR DOCTOR IGNORE IT EITHER. YOU MUST PROVE THAT IT IS NOT DUE TO A UTERINE CANCER." FurPaw

Response:

FurPaw <furpawSPR…@home.com.TIME

wrote in message

news:39109EAE.5D285783@home.com.TIME…

Hi, Susan – As others have pointed out, if you have abnormal bleeding with Prempro, you should heed your doctor’s advice and have the endometrial biopsy.  It’s the best way of detecting – or ruling out – endometrial cancer (EC), because it allows examination of the cellular structure of your endometrium. It’s most likely that EC isn’t your problem – but if it is, you want to catch it as quickly as possible, before it spreads.  It’s highly curable if it’s localized.

  How do they cure endometrial cancer? Can they just section out the cancerous tissue and leave the uterus intact, or do they recommend taking out the entire uterus and cervix too ……and hope to goodness …..they don’t also say …."as long as we are in there……take the ovaries too?     Something to know ahead of time, part of the risk benefit analysis for taking something like Prempro where the uterine protection has not been established. Lots to still learn about this form of HRT. I wonder what it the longest anyone has been on it? J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

About the biopsy – I had one without benefit of ibuprofen (Advil, etc.) because my gyn. wanted to do it right then and there – she saw what looked like a tumor in a pelvic exam. She forewarned me that it would be like labor pains or very bad menstrual cramps, and that she would be taking three samples (three cramps).  I took a couple of minutes to do some deep breathing while she prepared to do the biopsy, and I found the procedure painful (yep, just like very bad cramps that lasted 30 seconds or so with each sample) but tolerable.  There was some residual mild cramping afterwards, and I took ibuprofen for that (it worked). I had been on Premarin and Provera (continuous) for about 1.5 years, and had had mild spotting for a couple of months (which is why I went to see my gyn).  In my case it was EC, and I underwent removal of uterus, ovaries and fallopian tubes a few days later, and radiation therapy after that (there was some spread, not much). So I would encourage you to find a way to deal with the pain – ask for Valium and painkillers (or whatever) in advance, if you aren’t familiar with pain control techniques, and get the biopsy.  My wish for you is that the cause of the bleeding is benign. What is a LEEP procedure? FurPaw Ralf wrote: Hi- [Pls let me know if you know of a better forum for this question.] My ObGyn wants to do an ultrasound and endometrial biopsy. Based on my recent experiences with cervical biopsies and LEEP procedures, I’m *very* reluctant to have an endometrial biopsy unless it’s absolutely necessary. I had a conization which came back clear. When I went for my follow-up, my doctor (the one who performed the conization) asked when I last had my period. If she’d checked her records, she’d have known it was at least a year and a half ago. She said there was some bleeding and wanted to schedule an ultrasound and biopsy for that day. I told her I wasn’t prepared for that and wanted to reschedule it. I’ve had sporadic, infrequent and very light spotting since I’ve been on hormone therapy (Prempro, for the past year). Is that enough of a symptom to warrant an endometrial biopsy? I’m frankly scared to death of it, since my cervical biopsies were extremely painful, and my doctor made no mention of using anaesthesia. I read somewhere online that an ultrasound is at least as effective as a diagnostic procedure, and since it’s non-invasive I would obviously much prefer going with that alone first. If post-menopausal bleeding is a symptom of something serious, could someone please define it further for me? I generally detect no discharge of any kind, but I do occasionally have, as I said, very light bleeding. In addition to the recent LEEP and conization procedures, I had a colposcopy within the last few weeks, and had 6 benign polyps removed. For those of you who have had endometrial biopsies: did you have an anaesthetic for the procedure? I had a local for my LEEP and was still in considerable pain throughout. Any opinions/suggestions would be most appreciated. TIA- Susan * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion

Network *

The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

On Wed, 03 May 2000 12:16:14 -0700, Ralf <smgNOsmS…@bestweb.net.invalid

wrote: For those of you who have had endometrial biopsies: did you have an anaesthetic for the procedure? I had a local for my LEEP and was still in considerable pain throughout. Any opinions/suggestions would be most appreciated. TIA- Susan

I had my endometrial biopsy the day I went into the doctor’s office to check into my slight spotting. I was surprised that it was suggested to have it that day too and asked about the need to take some pain medication in advance. My doctor said I could come back and take Advil before the appointment but that would mean I would need to have someone else with me to drive me home, and what with the wait to find out about my spotting I thought it was best to just get  it over with and have the biopsy. It wasn’t pleasant but the sharp pain was over pretty fast ( 30 seconds? ) for the several snips that were taken and I was expecting it to be much worse than it was. I am not certain how this compares to a LEEP for time. The mild cramping for the half day afterwards was worse overall IMO. But then if my dentist suggests a minor treatment can be done without freezing I always agree and am glad afterwards. YMMV. Kathryn droz…@home.com

Response:

Hi, Susan – As others have pointed out, if you have abnormal bleeding with Prempro, you should heed your doctor’s advice and have the endometrial biopsy.  It’s the best way of detecting – or ruling out – endometrial cancer (EC), because it allows examination of the cellular structure of your endometrium. It’s most likely that EC isn’t your problem – but if it is, you want to catch it as quickly as possible, before it spreads.  It’s highly curable if it’s localized. About the biopsy – I had one without benefit of ibuprofen (Advil, etc.) because my gyn. wanted to do it right then and there – she saw what looked like a tumor in a pelvic exam. She forewarned me that it would be like labor pains or very bad menstrual cramps, and that she would be taking three samples (three cramps).  I took a couple of minutes to do some deep breathing while she prepared to do the biopsy, and I found the procedure painful (yep, just like very bad cramps that lasted 30 seconds or so with each sample) but tolerable.  There was some residual mild cramping afterwards, and I took ibuprofen for that (it worked). I had been on Premarin and Provera (continuous) for about 1.5 years, and had had mild spotting for a couple of months (which is why I went to see my gyn).  In my case it was EC, and I underwent removal of uterus, ovaries and fallopian tubes a few days later, and radiation therapy after that (there was some spread, not much).   So I would encourage you to find a way to deal with the pain – ask for Valium and painkillers (or whatever) in advance, if you aren’t familiar with pain control techniques, and get the biopsy.  My wish for you is that the cause of the bleeding is benign. What is a LEEP procedure? FurPaw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ralf wrote:

Hi- [Pls let me know if you know of a better forum for this question.] My ObGyn wants to do an ultrasound and endometrial biopsy. Based on my recent experiences with cervical biopsies and LEEP procedures, I’m *very* reluctant to have an endometrial biopsy unless it’s absolutely necessary. I had a conization which came back clear. When I went for my follow-up, my doctor (the one who performed the conization) asked when I last had my period. If she’d checked her records, she’d have known it was at least a year and a half ago. She said there was some bleeding and wanted to schedule an ultrasound and biopsy for that day. I told her I wasn’t prepared for that and wanted to reschedule it. I’ve had sporadic, infrequent and very light spotting since I’ve been on hormone therapy (Prempro, for the past year). Is that enough of a symptom to warrant an endometrial biopsy? I’m frankly scared to death of it, since my cervical biopsies were extremely painful, and my doctor made no mention of using anaesthesia. I read somewhere online that an ultrasound is at least as effective as a diagnostic procedure, and since it’s non-invasive I would obviously much prefer going with that alone first. If post-menopausal bleeding is a symptom of something serious, could someone please define it further for me? I generally detect no discharge of any kind, but I do occasionally have, as I said, very light bleeding. In addition to the recent LEEP and conization procedures, I had a colposcopy within the last few weeks, and had 6 benign polyps removed. For those of you who have had endometrial biopsies: did you have an anaesthetic for the procedure? I had a local for my LEEP and was still in considerable pain throughout. Any opinions/suggestions would be most appreciated. TIA- Susan * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ralf wrote:

Hi- [Pls let me know if you know of a better forum for this question.] My ObGyn wants to do an ultrasound and endometrial biopsy. Based on my recent experiences with cervical biopsies and LEEP procedures, I’m *very* reluctant to have an endometrial biopsy unless it’s absolutely necessary. I had a conization which came back clear. When I went for my follow-up, my doctor (the one who performed the conization) asked when I last had my period. If she’d checked her records, she’d have known it was at least a year and a half ago. She said there was some bleeding and wanted to schedule an ultrasound and biopsy for that day. I told her I wasn’t prepared for that and wanted to reschedule it. I’ve had sporadic, infrequent and very light spotting since I’ve been on hormone therapy (Prempro, for the past year). Is that enough of a symptom to warrant an endometrial biopsy? I’m frankly scared to death of it, since my cervical biopsies were extremely painful, and my doctor made no mention of using anaesthesia.

Yes, unfortunately. Prempro doesn’t seem to protect the uterine lining as well as a cyclical regimen, so any bleeding with the use of prempro after the first few months should be checked out via endometrial biopsy. Ultrasound can check for the thickness of the endometrium  but it will tell your doctor nothing about the cellular structures in the endometrium. I’ve never had an endometrial biopsy so can’t tell you anything about ways to make the procedure more comfortable. Many other women here have, though and I’m sure they’ll tell you their stories and their coping methods. Welcome to asm and good luck Terri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I read somewhere online that an ultrasound is at least as effective as a diagnostic procedure, and since it’s non-invasive I would obviously much prefer going with that alone first. If post-menopausal bleeding is a symptom of something serious, could someone please define it further for me? I generally detect no discharge of any kind, but I do occasionally have, as I said, very light bleeding. In addition to the recent LEEP and conization procedures, I had a colposcopy within the last few weeks, and had 6 benign polyps removed. For those of you who have had endometrial biopsies: did you have an anaesthetic for the procedure? I had a local for my LEEP and was still in considerable pain throughout. Any opinions/suggestions would be most appreciated. TIA- Susan * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I had a transvaginal ultrasound, and the results were inconclusive.  Later I had the endometrial biopsy.  I took 2 Advil 30 minutes prior to the procedure.  Afterwards, I had mild cramping. Gwen I have a high pain threshold. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Ralf <smgNOsmS…@bestweb.net.invalid wrote in message news:02ac6c7e.006a7929@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com… Hi- [Pls let me know if you know of a better forum for this question.] My ObGyn wants to do an ultrasound and endometrial biopsy. Based on my recent experiences with cervical biopsies and LEEP procedures, I’m *very* reluctant to have an endometrial biopsy unless it’s absolutely necessary. I had a conization which came back clear. When I went for my follow-up, my doctor (the one who performed the conization) asked when I last had my period. If she’d checked her records, she’d have known it was at least a year and a half ago. She said there was some bleeding and wanted to schedule an ultrasound and biopsy for that day. I told her I wasn’t prepared for that and wanted to reschedule it. I’ve had sporadic, infrequent and very light spotting since I’ve been on hormone therapy (Prempro, for the past year). Is that enough of a symptom to warrant an endometrial biopsy? I’m frankly scared to death of it, since my cervical biopsies were extremely painful, and my doctor made no mention of using anaesthesia. I read somewhere online that an ultrasound is at least as effective as a diagnostic procedure, and since it’s non-invasive I would obviously much prefer going with that alone first. If post-menopausal bleeding is a symptom of something serious, could someone please define it further for me? I generally detect no discharge of any kind, but I do occasionally have, as I said, very light bleeding. In addition to the recent LEEP and conization procedures, I had a colposcopy within the last few weeks, and had 6 benign polyps removed. For those of you who have had endometrial biopsies: did you have an anaesthetic for the procedure? I had a local for my LEEP and was still in considerable pain throughout. Any opinions/suggestions would be most appreciated. TIA- Susan * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion

Network

* The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I had very minor spotting last June, 2

Question:

On Wed, 26 Apr 2000 02:12:48 GMT, "Joan Livingston" <joan.livingst…@gte.net

wrote:   …since 1942, the FDA approved the use of eighteen (18) products (estrogen alone or in combination) for the treatment of moderate-to-severe hot flushes associated with the menopause, the treatment of vulvar and vaginal therapy, and the prevention of osteoporosis.

Remember Joan, it doesn’t take much to get this FDA approval, just a better showing over placebo. That is hardly a standard of evidence to be used by doctors to prescribe this stuff or for insurance to pay for the stuff. Maybe it is best to concentrate on the medical profession. Did you have a chance to look at the editorial in the JAMA I mentioned today? http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/current/full/jed00027.html

Pharmacoeconomic Analyses   Making Them Transparent, Making Them Credible Drummond Rennie, MD; Harold S. Luft, PhD

I just quoted one part earlier, the editorial also is about the coming of evidenced based medicine in the US. [ another quote]

The issue of prescription drug benefits is being hotly debated in the United States. We can be sure that cost-conscious insurance organizations, both governmental and commercial, will demand an ever stronger role in deciding which drugs they pay for and include in managed care formularies. Pharmaceutical companies can be expected to continue to fund analyses of the cost-effectiveness of their products, and, as legal and political maneuvering in the United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia has shown, to continue to bring great political and legal pressure on the organizations responsible for deciding the relative merits of their products.1-3 Much of the battle will  revolve around measurements of the cost-effectiveness of new drugs.

Will you see it being considered cost effective to take a drug for the rest of your life if there is little evidence of benefit in the long term? Don’t give up the fight Joan. The other JAMA news item on the Osteoporosis consensus said this about estrogen as treatment. I am sorry, I neglected to put the url in my earlier post. http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/current/full/jmn0426-3.html

Consensus Panel Considers Osteoporosis

<snip

Studies show, said the panel, that among the pharmacological approaches for treating osteoporosis, use of bisphosphonates increases bone mineral density and reduces the risk of vertebral fractures. In observational studies, hormone replacement has been shown to result in a reduction in hip fractures, but few randomized controlled trials have been done to determine whether estrogen alone or in combination with other agents reduces the incidence.

It may take some time for this message to hit home. There is nothing in this panal statement to justify taking HRT for life IMO. Kathryn droz…@home.com

Response:

In my letter writing campaign about HRT to US public agencies, I just received this response from the FDA-Division of Reproductive Health – CDER. I had written to their public comment division regarding the new labeling for HRT that will be out in a few weeks. I expressed my concerns regarding the "lack of efficacy of any HRT supporting studies."     You know, the same concluson the NIH WHI study made which lead them to spend millions of dollars on a 9 year study, in which they already have admitted is putting HRT takers at more risk than non-HRT takers?   But according to this FDA spokewoman, the issues have been long settled: Quote:    …since 1942, the FDA approved the use of eighteen (18) products (estrogen alone or in combination) for the treatment of moderate-to-severe hot flushes associated with the menopause, the treatment of vulvar and vaginal therapy, and the prevention of osteoporosis.      The approval of all of these products was based on data obtained from randomized, double blind placebo controlled or active-controlled clinical trials in women who has reached "natural menopause ( majority of enrolled women) or were "surgically menopausal." In total, over 11,8800 healthy, post-menopausal women participated in 35 hormone replacement therapy trials. (Unqoute) NB:      (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Goody, now at last I will be able to get cites to these studies. And pass them on to Premarin because they do not even have any to footnote their claim that Premarin reduces hot flashes. All they could offer was a reference to their own product literature. And we already know, and they keep admitting it themselves that there are NO studies that show ERT or HRT "prevents osteoporosis." Wonder what their tortured definition of "osteoporosis" is?    And so far there seems to be a reasonable connection to the surgical loss of lubrication glands, post-hysterectomy, stress, and dry-mouth medications and "vaginal dryness" to make one want to take a close look at their "randomized placebo controlled studies on this authorized use of HRT.   What is even more interesting is their claim that the majority of the studies were done on women having a "natural menopause" which means they have more HRT studies, than ERT studies.      HRT has not been well-studied at all, and this lack of studies was reported in another branch of the CDER when they produced that grotesque computer model evaluating the risks and benefits of HRT. They complained how few good studies there were in the first place, and how almost no HRT studies existed, And when I tracked down the HRT studies they cited, they were pure junk and of no possible value.   So this is the "official" response from the highest offices of the FDA who will be re-writing the new drug warning labels for HRT. Stay tuned and be prepared. J

Response:

Question:

~ Windsong ~ wrote:

Joan Livingston <joan.livingst…@gte.net wrote in message news:HgHJ4.61052$QJ3.7503045@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net… On the nighttime talk program "Politically Incorrect" Lauren Hutton was doing her very public hormone road show  again. Her final words screaming over the closing credits were "I take lots and lots of estrogen". * At her age she should be on a very low dose if she needs estrogen replacement.  She sure looks good though…

Of course she looks good. It’s her *job* to look good. She earns a fortune looking good, and can afford to pay whatever it takes to keep herself looking good. I imagine she has her bad hair days just like the rest of us, but you won’t see her going on TV in the middle of one. She’s not out promoting estrogen out of the goodness of her heart. She gets paid to do it. If she looked more like an average middle-aged woman – on estrogen or not – I doubt she’d have got the job in the first place. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Pat Kight wrote:

~ Windsong ~ wrote: Joan Livingston <joan.livingst…@gte.net wrote in message news:HgHJ4.61052$QJ3.7503045@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net… On the nighttime talk program "Politically Incorrect" Lauren Hutton was doing her very public hormone road show  again. Her final words screaming over the closing credits were "I take lots and lots of estrogen". * At her age she should be on a very low dose if she needs estrogen replacement.  She sure looks good though… Of course she looks good. It’s her *job* to look good. She earns a fortune looking good, and can afford to pay whatever it takes to keep herself looking good. I imagine she has her bad hair days just like the rest of us, but you won’t see her going on TV in the middle of one. She’s not out promoting estrogen out of the goodness of her heart. She gets paid to do it. If she looked more like an average middle-aged woman – on estrogen or not – I doubt she’d have got the job in the first place. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

She was promoting rejuvex less than ten years ago. Do you suppose she was using both at the same time? If so, why? If estrogen is so wonderful and has solved all her menopausal "problems" why  was she taking rejuvex which was being promoted as an all-natural alternative to estrogen? I thought there was now a requirement that celebrities who endorse products must actually use the product they are endorsing?  Am I right, Joan. Do you know? I fell asleep before PI came on last night, damn it. Maybe it’s just as well. Throwing things at the TV isn’t very good for the screen. Terri

Response:

Doesn’t she also endorse *Slim Fast*? Or am I thinking of someone else? Whoever it is that does the Slim Fast, talks about how much it has changed her life, outlook, etc. If it is the same person, how does she *know* which *miracle* product has changed her life?!    gs "Frankenmel" <franken…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20000414203552.26824.00000598@ng-cg1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

From: Pat Kight kig…@ucs.orst.edu Of course she looks good Personally,I think she’s wrinkly. Not that there’s anything WRONG with

that.

sharon

Response:

From: Pat Kight kig…@ucs.orst.edu Of course she looks good

Personally,I think she’s wrinkly. Not that there’s anything WRONG with that. sharon

Response:

Would Premarin have hired her if she looked like an "ordinary" midlife woman when they tend to use 35 year old looking women for their menopause ads? You are right, she is paid to create an image about menopause drugs as fun and easy. Which they are not. This is clear.  Lauren is now also showing up in a remake of that silly W/A ad as the centerpiece model amidst all that clap trap they tried to foist on us a year or so ago making all those totally inane statemtents about all the "research" that continues to go on about estrogen  for all the various body parts, yet not offering one single bit of hard information about any of this 5 decades of research.      Remember that one? The one that came from their "education" foundation the WHRI (an attemtp to confuse it with  the WHI and control the media information on this study?) so they did not have to follow it with the FDA required drug warning small print making a lie out of all the fun and easy imagery claims for these carcinogenic drugs. Funny they do not also say that decades of research on estrogen drugs have found they accelerate most of the aging disease as we have been able to find, post and cite right here on this newsgroup thanks primarily to Kathryn’s always superb research skills. HRT accelerates: cancers, heart attacks, strokes, blood clots, diabetes, asthma, arthritis, gall bladder disease, depression, migraine. Buyer beware. I wonder what Lauren meant last night when she claimed she takes "lots and lots of estrogen". Numerical translation please since it is now well established that the harm from these drugs comes with both increased duration and dose. Is this stupid or what to advertise a drug so irresponsibly?     What on earth is W/A  (AHP) doing this time unleashing this overly aggressive "soft" advertising for their drug products? Didn’t they learn anything from the Phen-fen aggressive marketing debacle? J Terri <vl-hb…@erols.com

wrote in message

news:38F7B814.FE70200A@erols.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Pat Kight wrote: > > ~ Windsong ~ wrote: > > > Joan Livingston <joan.livingst…@gte.net

wrote in message

> > > news:HgHJ4.61052$QJ3.7503045@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net… > > > > On the nighttime talk program "Politically Incorrect" Lauren Hutton was

doing her very public hormone road show  again. Her final words

screaming

over the closing credits were "I take lots and lots of estrogen". * At her age she should be on a very low dose if she needs estrogen replacement.  She sure looks good though… Of course she looks good. It’s her *job* to look good. She earns a fortune looking good, and can afford to pay whatever it takes to keep herself looking good. I imagine she has her bad hair days just like the rest of us, but you won’t see her going on TV in the middle of one. She’s not out promoting estrogen out of the goodness of her heart. She gets paid to do it. If she looked more like an average middle-aged woman – on estrogen or not – I doubt she’d have got the job in the first place. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org She was promoting rejuvex less than ten years ago. Do you suppose she was

using

both at the same time? If so, why? If estrogen is so wonderful and has

solved

all her menopausal "problems" why  was she taking rejuvex which was being promoted as an all-natural alternative to estrogen? I thought there was

now a

requirement that celebrities who endorse products must actually use the

product

they are endorsing?  Am I right, Joan. Do you know? I fell asleep before

PI came

on last night, damn it. Maybe it’s just as well. Throwing things at the TV

isn’t

very good for the screen. Terri

Response:

On the nighttime talk program "Politically Incorrect" Lauren Hutton was doing her very public hormone road show  again. Her final words screaming over the closing credits were "I take lots and lots of estrogen".   ( I guess this means she has been castrated) She also said she has been taking estrogen for 10 years. This is considered by all to be the outside of any "safe" limit.    The beauty, glamour and sexy aspects of taking hormone drugs was pushed, and she dutifully distorted the recent WHI finding of early harm in taking HRT. She claimed this was now a 15 year study (!)  and that it will be years before more is known.    She used the version of the data that claims than less than one percent -all- women in the 25,000 study (it is over 27,000 women) had problems. And failed to mention that the early report was that "over 1% of the women on HRT had strokes, heart attacks, blood clots and death" which was more than found in the placebo group.   Deborah Norville (a younger woman in the news US  media) also chimed in that there was proof that "HRT" increased spinal bone density by 7 percent and that taking these drugs was an important and healthy thing to do.  Since she appeared to be of a pre-meno age, one -may- assume she was parroting the information put out by "femhrt" which is a birth control pill who recently made this claim in their drug ad trying to sell it as the "new continuous HRT" for menopause.    One needs to look carefully at bone density studies done on women taking oral contraceptives because women of any drug status will increase their bone density up until about age 35, If the OC drug user in this "study" were under the age of 35 one darn well had better find "increases" in bone density. Compliment of Mother Nature, not the OC drugs.   Buyer beware when the media gets saturated with drug misinformation from dubious spokespersons. J

Response:

On Fri, 14 Apr 2000 16:00:39 GMT, "Joan Livingston" <joan.livingst…@gte.net

wrote:   The beauty, glamour and sexy aspects of taking hormone drugs was pushed, and she dutifully distorted the recent WHI finding of early harm in taking HRT. She claimed this was now a 15 year study (!)  and that it will be years before more is known.

I did see 15 years somewhere, but I think it was the time the group of health professional women are going to be followed, this is in the observational arm of the study and nothing to do with the HRT/placebo study under discussion last week. Yes here is what is stated on the NAMS webpage news release. http://www.menopause.org/news/Currentnews1.html

The WHI is a 15-year national health study sponsored by the NIH National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute. The study is evaluating strategies for preventing CV disease, breast and colorectal cancer, and osteoporosis in postmenopausal women (aged 50-79). It has three major components: a randomized clinical trial, and observational study, and a community prevention study. The ERT/HRT study is one of three randomized clinical trials (a dietary modification trial and a calcium/vitamin D supplement trial are the other two). More than 26,000 women aged 50 to 79 are participating in the ERT/HRT study.

I was confused about this too when I was reading about Ridker’s c-reactine protein studies being done using  blood samples from the Women’s Health study in 1998, I still haven’t everything straightened out yet. [ back to Hutton ]

  She used the version of the data that claims than less than one percent -all- women in the 25,000 study (it is over 27,000 women) had problems. And failed to mention that the early report was that "over 1% of the women on HRT had strokes, heart attacks, blood clots and death" which was more than found in the placebo group.  Deborah Norville (a younger woman in the news US  media) also chimed in that there was proof that "HRT" increased spinal bone density by 7 percent and that taking these drugs was an important and healthy thing to do.  

I guess this media person hasn’t read the recent (draft ) consensus statement on osteoporosis.   http://odp.od.nih.gov/consensus/cons/111/111_statement.htm

Many short-term studies and some longer term studies with BMD as the primary outcome have shown significant efficacy. Observational studies have indicated a significant hip fracture reduction in cohorts of women who maintain HRT therapy. There is a paucity of trials with fractures as the endpoint. HRT trials have shown decreased risk of vertebral fractures. There have been no trials of estrogen with hip fracture as the primary outcome.

And the consensus is that this is not enough evidence for  screening tests of bone density of healthy post menopause women. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Since she appeared to be of a pre-meno age, one -may- assume she was parroting the information put out by "femhrt" which is a birth control pill who recently made this claim in their drug ad trying to sell it as the "new continuous HRT" for menopause.   One needs to look carefully at bone density studies done on women taking oral contraceptives because women of any drug status will increase their bone density up until about age 35, If the OC drug user in this "study" were under the age of 35 one darn well had better find "increases" in bone density. Compliment of Mother Nature, not the OC drugs.  Buyer beware when the media gets saturated with drug misinformation from dubious spokespersons. J

Kathryn droz…@home.com

Response:

Question:

On 9 Mar 2000 05:22:24 GMT, Karen Kay <ka…@wordwrite.com

wrote: Joan Livingston <joan.livingst…@gte.net wrote: But amazingly, the article did not recommend taking ERT or HRT to prevent heart disease .This represents a big breakthrrough in the popular media and shows that maybe, just maybe, for once, the authors actually read the HRT drug warning labels. I would bet cash money that when the article was first written that it *DID* recommend HRT and that they pulled it at the last minute because of the studies that came out a few weeks ago. I am extremely skeptical that they read the HRT drug warning labels. Karen       "Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise will       sooner or later have to find time for illness."Edward Stanley       (1826-1893) from The Conduct of Life

If that’s the case, then this is most certainly progress. The American College of OB GYNS, and the AHA still haven’t gotten around to reading these latest studies and are blithely recommending hormones *especially* for women with existing CAD. See last week’s Medscape article on women who have had hysterectomies for an example of this. Terri

Response:

Terri <vl-hb…@erols.com

wrote in message

news:38d28c5c.326150204@news.erols.com…

in the US diet and life-style is not.) let me guess – more "preventative" drugs, more testing, more surgery, more "preventative" drugs, more testing, more surgery….

     How about sending pellets of radiation into our arteries to fry the sides of the vessels to keep that pesky cholesterol glued in place? Coming to a hospital near you, and hopefully near your nearest McDonalds. J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    And snuck into the following pages of text and diagram is the two

page

ad for Zocor – cholesterol lowering drug that allegedly is going to

unclog

the arteries.. Oddly preceeding this ad is this following information

about

"clogged arteries"……" autopsy findings from large studies Anybody bother to point out that autopsies are very often not done where the cause of death is clear without? That these autopsies are being done in a selected population – those who died unexpectedly without previous evidence of heart disease – and probably don’t reflect the reality in the majority of people? have shown that more than two-thirds of the fatal events occur at points where the blood vessel in not significantly blocked." What is going on? asks the article, and then comes the Zocor ad,  and we get a new theory to prop up justification for more drugs and more surgeries. GRRRROWLL. The saintly Timothy Johnson ABC’s quack who does their health "news" stories had a glowing report on this "unstable plaque" and need for every adult to take statins. It was also followed by an ad for zocor.  The state of the nation. in the world’s best health care delivery

system

in the world. Also was a special section on women and heart disease that trots out that discredited notion that women are protected from early heart disease

because

of their estrogen (overlooking the fact that this old study from the

1950’s

showed men who smoked had the heart attacks, not that women were

"protected

by their estrogen"). But amazingly, the article did not recommend taking

ERT

or HRT to prevent heart disease .This represents a big breakthrrough in

the

popular media and shows that maybe, just maybe, for once, the authors actually read the HRT drug warning labels. The so-called PSA W/A put out, the one that used to say "consider the whole body of evidence," has also changed. No longer is there mention of looking into the role of menopause and Alzheimer’s. Now it’s just "memory loss." I wonder why the change? Suppose the study that showed no improvement or even slight worsening in the condition of women given estrogen for one year led to some "behind the scenes" arm twisting on the part of the FDA to remove this claim? Terri J J

Response:

    Almost cringing when I saw the cover story of US News And World Report called "A Cure for Heart Disease" New treatments are defeating America’s #1Killer", it did not take long to get rewarded. Sam, this one is for you and the state of US medical care ….in the country with "the best medical care in the world"…….. (not)   Interspersed between several large page glossy drug advertisements, are several articles on the state of art of "curing" heart disease listing all sorts of exotic treatments, surgeries and alleged "success stories" all told by fat people in their photos.   Gratutiously amid all the high praise for all the very expensive and risky appearing "treatment" lurks this statement ……"the need for them (the treatments) is acute …..The number of people hospitalized for coronary disease has risen 25% since 1979 and shows o signs of dropping as the population ages and Americans remain addicted to fast food and a sedentary lifestyle".   And thus proceeds page after page of "developments that are especially promising, practical and  —- imminent.  (Now that it has been decided that in the US diet and life-style is not.)      And snuck into the following pages of text and diagram is the two page ad for Zocor – cholesterol lowering drug that allegedly is going to unclog the arteries.. Oddly preceeding this ad is this following information about "clogged arteries"……" autopsy findings from large studies have shown that more than two-thirds of the fatal events occur at points where the blood vessel in not significantly blocked." What is going on? asks the article, and then comes the Zocor ad,  and we get a new theory to prop up justification for more drugs and more surgeries.   The state of the nation. in the world’s best health care delivery system in the world. Also was a special section on women and heart disease that trots out that discredited notion that women are protected from early heart disease because of their estrogen (overlooking the fact that this old study from the 1950’s showed men who smoked had the heart attacks, not that women were "protected by their estrogen"). But amazingly, the article did not recommend taking ERT or HRT to prevent heart disease .This represents a big breakthrrough in the popular media and shows that maybe, just maybe, for once, the authors actually read the HRT drug warning labels. J J

Response:

On Thu, 09 Mar 2000 05:01:23 GMT, "Joan Livingston" <joan.livingst…@gte.net

wrote:    Almost cringing when I saw the cover story of US News And World Report called "A Cure for Heart Disease" New treatments are defeating America’s #1Killer", it did not take long to get rewarded. Sam, this one is for you and the state of US medical care ….in the country with "the best medical care in the world"…….. (not)

You still reading that sensationalist supermarket tabloid <gr

? Guess

I’ll have to go out and buy this one since the ads aren’t on line.

 And thus proceeds page after page of "developments that are especially promising, practical and  —- imminent.  (Now that it has been decided that in the US diet and life-style is not.)

let me guess – more "preventative" drugs, more testing, more surgery, more "preventative" drugs, more testing, more surgery….

    And snuck into the following pages of text and diagram is the two page ad for Zocor – cholesterol lowering drug that allegedly is going to unclog the arteries.. Oddly preceeding this ad is this following information about "clogged arteries"……" autopsy findings from large studies

Anybody bother to point out that autopsies are very often not done where the cause of death is clear without? That these autopsies are being done in a selected population – those who died unexpectedly without previous evidence of heart disease – and probably don’t reflect the reality in the majority of people?

have shown that more than two-thirds of the fatal events occur at points where the blood vessel in not significantly blocked." What is going on? asks the article, and then comes the Zocor ad,  and we get a new theory to prop up justification for more drugs and more surgeries.

GRRRROWLL. The saintly Timothy Johnson ABC’s quack who does their health "news" stories had a glowing report on this "unstable plaque" and need for every adult to take statins. It was also followed by an ad for zocor.

 The state of the nation. in the world’s best health care delivery system in the world. Also was a special section on women and heart disease that trots out that discredited notion that women are protected from early heart disease because of their estrogen (overlooking the fact that this old study from the 1950’s showed men who smoked had the heart attacks, not that women were "protected by their estrogen"). But amazingly, the article did not recommend taking ERT or HRT to prevent heart disease .This represents a big breakthrrough in the popular media and shows that maybe, just maybe, for once, the authors actually read the HRT drug warning labels.

The so-called PSA W/A put out, the one that used to say "consider the whole body of evidence," has also changed. No longer is there mention of looking into the role of menopause and Alzheimer’s. Now it’s just "memory loss." I wonder why the change? Suppose the study that showed no improvement or even slight worsening in the condition of women given estrogen for one year led to some "behind the scenes" arm twisting on the part of the FDA to remove this claim? Terri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

J J

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Terri wrote:

On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:28:50 -0800, Pat Kight <kig…@ucs.orst.edu wrote: Pam Gasson wrote: J We now have a new way of taking progesterone in the U.K. Its 4% progesterone vaginal gel and it comes in a sealed applicator which you insert into the vagina,press the end of the applicator which deposits the gel.By using the progesterone this way you do not get the side effects which can be associated with this drug, like depression and irritability. Pam, this is interesting. Are you talking about progesterone used to counter the potential risk of using unopposed estrogen? Or is this some form of progesterone-only therapy? I understand the sometimes benefits of applying estrogen vaginally, to improve dryness and other internal problems some women experience with menopause. I’m not sure I get why one would apply progesterone vaginally, though. Is it just to improve absorption and avoid running the drug through the digestive tract? Or is there supposed to be some localized benefit? I believe Pam is talking about crinone. See the following url for the patient information sheet on this product.

Ah! Thanks for the URL, Terri. All this time, I’d been assuming that when the occasional Crinone reference came up, people were talking about a topical gel applied to the skin, like the infamous creams. So why *is* this product delivered vaginally? I can’t tell that from the patient info. Perhaps I’m being especially dense (I’m quite capable of that!) but I don’t see the advantage to vaginal application unless one is trying to, well, treat the vagina for something. Is it a matter of absorbency (via mucous membranes) and proximity to the reproductive organs or what? –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:28:50 -0800, Pat Kight <kig…@ucs.orst.edu

wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Pam Gasson wrote: J We now have a new way of taking progesterone in the U.K. Its 4% progesterone vaginal gel and it comes in a sealed applicator which you insert into the vagina,press the end of the applicator which deposits the gel.By using the progesterone this way you do not get the side effects which can be associated with this drug, like depression and irritability. Pam, this is interesting. Are you talking about progesterone used to counter the potential risk of using unopposed estrogen? Or is this some form of progesterone-only therapy? I understand the sometimes benefits of applying estrogen vaginally, to improve dryness and other internal problems some women experience with menopause. I’m not sure I get why one would apply progesterone vaginally, though. Is it just to improve absorption and avoid running the drug through the digestive tract? Or is there supposed to be some localized benefit?

I believe Pam is talking about crinone. See the following url for the patient information sheet on this product. Like almost all progesterone/progestin drugs this one gets into the bloodstream and as the url indicates has the same potential side effects as any other form of progesterone. I believe that prometrium is not yet available in the UK and this product, which is intended for the treatment of infertility and amenorrhea, is being used instead of the synthetic progestins. http://www.rxlist.com/scripts/patient/piumore.pl?mononum=712&order=1&… Terri

Response:

In article <76q+mFAsfYq4E…@purbeck.demon.co.uk

,

Pam Gasson  <rose…@purbeck.demon.co.uk

wrote: I must disagree with Joan here. It is not H.R.T. that exacerbates depression it is the menopause. H.R.T. helps it.

While this may certainly be true for some women, it’s also true that for others, certain HRT regimens can make depression much worse. This seems particularly true of the progestrone side of the equation. And, of course, some women experience no depression at all during this time of life.

I say this from personal experience.

Remember, though, that one woman’s experience – yours, mine, anyone else’s – is just that. It would take careful, scientific study of many, many women before anyone could say, "menopause causes depression" on any sort of general level.

I also have a booklet published by the British Medical Association on menopause which states that’ the menopause aggravates underlying anxiety and depression’.Have they got it wrong then?

I think they’re oversimplifying a complex process. When they write "the menopause," I don’t know if they’re talking about the hormonal shifts and adjustments that come at this time of life (which might lead one to think of a strictly beiochemical solution), or about the emotional and psychological challenges some of us encounter when faced with the reality of getting older, declining health, lost youth and the end of our reproductive years. Personally, I believe that different challenges require different responses. While I don’t object as strenuously to HRT as some others here, I do object to the popular notion that a pill will magically "make it all better." –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

The FDA warning sheet included depression as a possible side effect. It does not say aggravation of existing condition, though this is not mutually exclusive. Please disagree with the FDA, not me. J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Pam Gasson wrote in message <76q+mFAsfYq4E…@purbeck.demon.co.uk

… I must disagree with Joan here. It is not H.R.T. that exacerbates depression it is the menopause. H.R.T. helps it. I say this from personal experience. I also have a booklet published by the British Medical Association on menopause which states that’ the menopause aggravates underlying anxiety and depression’.Have they got it wrong then? Pam —So where does one take physical problems?  To their hairdresser?  Their exterminator?  =0) — Carol…  Southern Medicine: Cauterize… Made eye contact with her. ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ — Joan Livingston <joan.livingst…@gte.net wrote in message news:twWp4.1646$Oy1.9483@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net… HRT can exacerbate depression. One should not take problems as serious

as

this to a gynecologist. — Pam

Response:

I also have a booklet published by the British Medical Association on menopause which states that’ the menopause aggravates underlying anxiety and depression’. I believe that happened to a friend I had a few years back. Have they got it wrong then? No.  It does help a lot of women, or they’d never keep taking it.  Why

would

they? —

  The US HRT durg warning label claims HRT has depression as a side effect. The US FDA HRT drug warning sheet also says there has been no proof that HRT is of any value for "emotional problems." HRT in the US is sold with a huge placebo overlay which most like is responsible for its testimonial claims that do not hold up in objective research. Estrogen has reported a short-term euphoric effect, common with any hormone drug use. Progesterone is the most heavily implicated in the depression etiology.   Be sure to track down when some one says HRT is a mood enhancer, whether they are speaking about estrogen only, or the far more problematic HRT combination. And whether these were castrated women getting post-surgical relief or intact women taking the full dose HRT. The reactions vary widely for these condition. They should not be lumped together as "HRT for menopause". That is irresponsible folly. Yet is persists. J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Carol…  Southern Medicine: Coma…A punctuation mark. ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~

Response:

Pam Gasson wrote in message We now have a new way of taking progesterone in the U.K. Its 4% progesterone

vaginal gel and <snipped

Joan replied

 And of course you have all these studies to back up this claim, right? I

could not find much on this progesterone get when it was <snipped

>Is this progesterone get being used <more snippage

progesterone get? Once might be a typo, but twice is a spelling error. Oh, Miss Spelling Faery. Miss Spelling Faery. Probably in the Hug Corner at the W&W! OK, Joanie, that will be 100 GELs on the blackboard, please. And with chalk, not your nails, please. susan, the Typo Trollop

Response:

Pam Gasson wrote in message <+K+S8VAa3yq4E…@purbeck.demon.co.uk

… J We now have a new way of taking progesterone in the U.K. Its 4% progesterone vaginal gel and it comes in a sealed applicator which you insert into the vagina,press the end of the applicator which deposits the gel.By using the progesterone this way you do not get the side effects which can be associated with this drug, like depression and irritability.

  And of course you have all these studies to back up this claim, right? I could not find much on this progesterone get when it was touted here in the US a few years back. What was it called -Crinolin or somthing like that. It has also been used in fertility treatment cases, but I found no "menopause" use studies. Are there any new ones since then?      Is this progesterone get being used to regulate bleeding or as an antagonist to try and prevent uterine cancer when using estrogen drugs? In the latter case, until this drug has been used for over 10 years, there is NO proof that it has any benefits or side-effects. J  The only – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

side effect I experienced was constipation, and I overcame this by increasing my water intake and eating more fibre.I expect you are going to warn me about this product, but we now have a Doctor visiting our medical practice that specialises in menopause problems, and I have had a long discussion with her about H.R.T. and was completely satisfied with her replies. I would just like to say that there is no history of breast cancer in our family, my Mother had seven sisters who all had families and none of them to my knowledge has had this disease. I am so lucky that my Mother, who will be 91 in March ,is still going strong and living in her own home.Some of her sisters also lived into their nineties. Pam I also have a booklet published by the British Medical Association on menopause which states that’ the menopause aggravates underlying anxiety and depression’. I believe that happened to a friend I had a few years back. Have they got it wrong then? No.  It does help a lot of women, or they’d never keep taking it.  Why would they? —  The US HRT durg warning label claims HRT has depression as a side

effect.

The US FDA HRT drug warning sheet also says there has been no proof that

HRT

is of any value for "emotional problems." HRT in the US is sold with a

huge

placebo overlay which most like is responsible for its testimonial claims that do not hold up in objective research. Estrogen has reported a short-term euphoric effect, common with any hormone drug use. Progesterone is the most heavily implicated in the depression etiology.  Be sure to track down when some one says HRT is a mood enhancer, whether they are speaking about estrogen only, or the far more problematic HRT combination. And whether these were castrated women getting post-surgical relief or intact women taking the full dose HRT. The reactions vary widely for these condition. They should not be lumped together as "HRT for menopause". That is irresponsible folly. Yet is persists. J Carol…  Southern Medicine: Coma…A punctuation mark. ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ — Pam

Response:

Pam Gasson wrote:

J We now have a new way of taking progesterone in the U.K. Its 4% progesterone vaginal gel and it comes in a sealed applicator which you insert into the vagina,press the end of the applicator which deposits the gel.By using the progesterone this way you do not get the side effects which can be associated with this drug, like depression and irritability.

Pam, this is interesting. Are you talking about progesterone used to counter the potential risk of using unopposed estrogen? Or is this some form of progesterone-only therapy? I understand the sometimes benefits of applying estrogen vaginally, to improve dryness and other internal problems some women experience with menopause. I’m not sure I get why one would apply progesterone vaginally, though. Is it just to improve absorption and avoid running the drug through the digestive tract? Or is there supposed to be some localized benefit? I’m not criticizing your use of the drug – it sounds to me as if you’re a level-headed woman capable of making her own educated decisions. I’m just seeking enlightenment, as I’ve not heard of this particular therapeutic approach. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

HRT can exacerbate depression. One should not take problems as serious as this to a gynecologist. J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -~ Windsong ~ wrote in message …

x-no-archive: yes — FurPaw <furpawNOJ…@NOJUNKhome.com wrote in message (Like, perhaps, taking hormones that alleviate your crashing depressions and accepting the risks but deeming it worth a potentially shorter life span, * It would to me, yes.  Rather lose a few years and enjoy those I had then live longer suffering and depressed.  That was my point about Debbie.  Had she gone to the Dr. and found relief with HRT for so many of the meno symptoms she suffered perhaps she would NOT have done what she did.  I

still

think it was a combination of loss of sleep and other physical discomforts that added to her stress that pushed her around the bend into temporary insanity.  Without sleep she simply couldn’t think rationally and she felt so bad that ending it all actually seemed logical to her at the time. Looking back I still can hardly believe she did it.  So if she had relief form HRT for a few years what would the harm have been?  Even Dr. Love claims up to 5 years is probably safe.  By then she would have been past

the

worst of meno and alive today, as would her 2 sons.  :*(    And even if she lost a few years of life because of the HRT she still would have had years and the young men would still be here too.   It was such a tragedy! as opposed to living another twenty in biochemical misery.  Which is how it appears to you at the time.) *  You’re right.  No one really knows how we’ll feel when the time comes. My mother says that any time God is ready for her she’s ready to go.  She’s been saying this for about 5 years now.  I think she want’s relief from the physical pain and emotional pain and frustration of being so helpless in that wheelchair.  Almost everyone else has already died and I think she believes she’ll see them all again on the other side. — Carol…  Southern Medicine: Cauterize… Made eye contact with her. ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ FurPaw

Response:

I must disagree with Joan here. It is not H.R.T. that exacerbates depression it is the menopause. H.R.T. helps it. I say this from personal experience. I also have a booklet published by the British Medical Association on menopause which states that’ the menopause aggravates underlying anxiety and depression’.Have they got it wrong then? Pam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

—So where does one take physical problems?  To their hairdresser?  Their exterminator?  =0) — Carol…  Southern Medicine: Cauterize… Made eye contact with her. ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ — Joan Livingston <joan.livingst…@gte.net wrote in message news:twWp4.1646$Oy1.9483@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net… HRT can exacerbate depression. One should not take problems as serious as this to a gynecologist.

— Pam

Response:

Many people cling to life when their bodies are in horrible condition.  That often seems amazing.  Ten or twenty or thirty years ago, these same folks would have said, "I could NEVER live like THAT!  If I become wheelchair-bound | paralyzed | blinded | <name your bugaboo

, I would end my

life.  Or just shoot me if I can’t do it myself!"   When I was twenty, I could not imagine that I would find life worth living when I got as old as FIFTY!  My dad has advanced Parkinson’s and has difficulty doing a lot of stuff that we take for granted – tying his shoes, zipping a jacket, eating without spilling.  And yet he retains a zest for life.  He gets frustrated, but doesn’t indulge in self-pity.  He was laughing his face off at a George Carlin video just this morning. My point is, it’s really hard to know just what you would do, or how you would feel, until you are wearing them shoes.  When you accept the reality of what you have and deal with it, rather than bemoaning what might have been ‘if only’, you can find happiness in many situations where that might otherwise seem unimaginable.  I agree with Karen – it depends on your attitude.  And while you have no control over many of the circumstances of your life, you can own your attitude. Some folks will look at this as fatalistic.  It’s not.  It doesn’t say that you should just sit back and not try to improve on whatever happens to you, just that you accept that there are some things that you cannot control, and spend your energies where you do have a chance of making a difference.  And accept the risks and consequences of the actions that you take. (Like, perhaps, taking hormones that alleviate your crashing depressions and accepting the risks but deeming it worth a potentially shorter life span, as opposed to living another twenty in biochemical misery.  Which is how it appears to you at the time.) FurPaw ————- ~ Windsong ~ wrote:

[Key:

= Carol

       

= Karen Kay

         

= Carol]

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Karen Kay <ka…@wordwrite.com wrote in message news:885lij$892$1@samba.rahul.net… Yes. When my independence is gone what good is life? I can’t even begin to answer this. The value of my life and my enjoyment of it has nothing to do with my independence. Well that’s YOU!  To each her own.  :o) Especially if I’m in some kind of pain our senile.  That’s not living, it’s existing like a turnip. I think Stephen Hawking might resent that appellation. That’s up to him, whoever he is.  He’s entitled to his opinion too. The TRUTH is the TRUTH! This is your opinion, not anything factual. Exactly senility are POSITIVE things!  I see nothing positive about that kind of existence. It’s not the preferred way to live. But I think that whether it’s preferable to death or not depends on your attitude. Right.  And as an active person my wife wouldn’t be a very happy one as a dependant person, in pain and in a wheelchair or a bed. — Carol…   Southern Medicine: Cesarean Section…. A neighborhood in Rome. ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~

Response:

FurPaw wrote in message <38A6E912.C4FD6…@NOJUNKhome.com

… (Like, perhaps, taking hormones that alleviate your crashing depressions and accepting the risks but deeming it worth a potentially shorter life span, as opposed to living another twenty in biochemical misery.  Which is how it appears to you at the time.) FurPaw

  What "hormones" do you have in mind that alleviate crashing depressions? There is no proof that HRT helps, according to the FDA drug warning label .     Since this is a menopause group and often the term" hormones" get used without qualification to mean the females hormones of estrogen and progesterone, I would not want there to be any misunderstanding that these female hormones are not recommended or authorized for use by the FDA for "crashing depressions." J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

————- ~ Windsong ~ wrote: [Key: = Carol         = Karen Kay           = Carol] Karen Kay <ka…@wordwrite.com wrote in message news:885lij$892$1@samba.rahul.net… Yes. When my independence is gone what good is life? I can’t even begin to answer this. The value of my life and my enjoyment of it has nothing to do with my independence. Well that’s YOU!  To each her own.  :o) Especially if I’m in some kind of pain our senile.  That’s not living, it’s existing like

a

turnip. I think Stephen Hawking might resent that appellation. That’s up to him, whoever he is.  He’s entitled to his opinion too. The TRUTH is the TRUTH! This is your opinion, not anything factual. Exactly senility are POSITIVE things!  I see nothing positive about that kind

of

existence. It’s not the preferred way to live. But I think that whether it’s preferable to death or not depends on your attitude. Right.  And as an active person my wife wouldn’t be a very happy one as a dependant person, in pain and in a wheelchair or a bed. — Carol…   Southern Medicine: Cesarean Section…. A neighborhood in Rome. ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~ @{ ~~~

Response:

Question:

kig…@ucs.orst.edu (Pat Kight) writes:

In article <rufie710-1202001231560…@207-172-127-192.s192.tnt1.fmt.nj.dialup.rcn.com, rufie <rufie…@rcn.com wrote: Is it normal to go through a super tampax in a half an hour?? For some of us, during certain phases of perimenopause, yup, it’s normal. A pain in the ass, but normal.

I don’t actually know if anybody wants to know this, but it did afford me some reassurance at some points in my heavy bleeding: I would occasionally take a sterilizable pair of scissors to a tampon to see if it had really absorbed to its capacity, and in the cases where it was useless in half an hour, about half the time it hadn’t. The usual culprit was clots, as I think Joanna delicately hinted at in her use of the term "slide," but not always.

Ruth, going out for more chocolate. Never a bad idea …

I was given several bars of organic dark chocolate with upwards of 70% cocoa solids for my birthday.  It’s very good, but it’s not snarfable.  A few squares are about all I can handle.  I miss milk chocolate, which I could cheerfully eat by the pound.  I keep wondering if I should invest in some candy-making equipment and make milk chocolate with soymilk. Oh, and Pat, just in case you feel lonely with your typoes, when I first typed chocolate up there I put o’s where the c’s should have been, and vice versa. — Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet           (p…@demesne.com) "I will open my heart to a blank page    and interview the witnesses."  John M. Ford, "Shared World"

Response:

Hi Janet,   Take your own journey.  It doesn’t have to match anyone else’s menopause.  You know that. Janet Hardy wrote:

If it was a "major psychosis," then I was the world’s most functional psychotic — holding down several romantic relationships, parenting two young adult children and running a successful business. And then I’d come home, close the door and quietly (or not so quietly) fall apart.

Not enough time for just Janet.  That you were very functional is obvious.  That the instinct to fight any physical symptoms that are trying to slow you down is natural.  Nobody willingly gets old at first.

What they were was mood swings, by any definition of the term as I understand it — periods of relative normalcy alternating with periods of irrational anger and/or sadness and/or fatigue, for no discernible external reasons.

Yes, they were mood swings.  And yes, probably not from any discernible external reasons.  And doing what you needed to do to cope was not wrong.  You should be proud of all your accomplishments.  Just don’t forget to have that dialogue with your body that it is wanting you to have.  Time to resort and reprioritize to fit your needs better in the second half of life.

I was not schizophrenic. I was not bipolar. I was not depressed. I fit no criteria for psychosis, major or minor. I was on a predictable, cyclic hormonal roller coaster, a ride that was getting wilder and wilder as I came closer and closer to meno.

Looking into my famous crystal ball, probably closer and closer to the middle of peri-menopause.

It is possible that I may have to be on it again,

Not necessarily.  The mood swings phase may have passed on it’s own.  There’s always hope.

if it turns out that the low-dose BC pills I’ve been taking are contributing to the GI symptoms I’m experiencing.

Do look into it.  And if nothing comes of it, don’t overlook symptom #20, Gastrointestinal distress, indigestion, flatulence, gas pain, nausea.

I’m not looking forward to the idea.

This, too, may just be a phase.  If the side effects of the birth control pills you are taking do not list any of the above, and everything else checks out with your doctor, perhaps the birth control pills just don’t address this symptom. You’ll get through it.

Why is it so difficult for you to concede that this is possible?

What does it matter, eh? Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ

Response:

Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet wrote:

I miss milk chocolate, which I could cheerfully eat by the pound.  I keep wondering if I should invest in some candy-making equipment and make milk chocolate with soymilk.

I’ll send you a mold if you’d like.  I’ve been wondering what to do with it. Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ

Response:

Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet <p…@gw.dd-b.net

wrote: I keep wondering if I should invest in some candy-making equipment and make milk chocolate with soymilk.

I didn’t see that. I didn’t see that. I didn’t see that. I didn’t see that. I didn’t see that. I didn’t see that. I didn’t see that. I didn’t see that. I didn’t see that. I didn’t see that. I didn’t see that. ______________________________________________________________________          Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com), from (^_^) Tokyo

Response:

In article <38A51192.ECB46…@interaccess.com

, HomemakerJ

<ho…@interaccess.com

wrote: John Mc Bride wrote: Average age to begin peri-menopause is said to be 36.

You mean I was entering perimenopause when I was having my babies? Oh my .  It is a long and gradual

process to full menopause at average age 52.

with my luck I won’t hit it until I am 60. <sigh

Is it normal to go through a super tampax in a half an hour?? Ruth, going out for more chocolate. —

Response:

rufie wrote in message …

   The drug your wife is taking is a known libido killler, Uh, not necessarily.

  Right. Nothing is a 100% sure thing.  Anti-depressants are known libido killers for the most part. Check the brand you are taking and discusss this with your therapist if this is a possible cause. J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

–

Response:

rufie wrote in message …

In article <+E+lODpf4wAWPHxlTAtNuNLBp…@4ax.com, AneeB…@bigfoot.com

wrote:

 And then, on Sat, 12 Feb 2000 04:55:08 GMT,  "Janet Hardy" <ver…@earthlink.net, said this: :Crying jags, immobilizing depressions and self-destructive impulses are

not,

:goddammit, a "new sense of assertiveness and speaking up and speaking

out."   Never said they were. What you are describing appears to be a major psychosis. The topic was "mood swings" which shows right off the bat how loose one’s definition of this term is. Best to pin down what the heck someone means by "mood swings" in the context of their lives, before suggesting any one cure for them. J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

:What I am doing *now* is being assertive and speaking out — in order to :tell you, Joan, that much as you’d like to put some wonderful feminist

slant

n some of the emotional effects of peri, the fact is that it is

sometimes a

:flat-out hormonal derangement that impairs the sufferer’s ability to

lead a

:normal, productive life. But if you’re inclined toward a feminist

viewpoint,

:allow me to remind you of the consciousness-raising standard that states :"Never tell anybody else what she’s feeling." What she said. AneeBear And Furthermore…I am a woman who suffered from mood swings my entire life. I spent years in therapy trying to figure them out. I am just chock full of insight into my life, but that never helped the dang mood swings. In 1978 I suffered a major clinical depression…I wish that horror on no one. At the time I would have loved to take anti-depressants but couldn’t tolerate the only kind available to me. So I lived with it for many many years, and suffered for many many years. And then came the arrival of the SSRIS and I was able, for the first time, to be the me I had only glimpsed before….I was able to be a fully functioning human being. And no, they did not affect my libido( have no idea why) *Depression* affected my libido in a big way. I am uncommitted as far as HRT goes( leaning towards anti…for *me*), but I do want to state here and now, that not all drugs are evil . I owe my life to one or two…..I also work in the mental health field and what I have seen done for the chronic mentally ill by some of the newest drugs for Schizophrenia ( for example) has been nothing short of miraculous.  Yes, women are screwed over by the medical world, I have seen that over and over again…but to denegrate the idea of medicine entirely is just plain silly. And life is a trade off…..for me it is worth it to put these drugs in my body. I have a lot of experience with this and I cannot emphasize enough just how much relief these drugs have given me. And it makes sense to me that this can also be true for HRT…………everyone is different. We are just now at the very first stages of understanding how our brains and bodies work….. for some folks, the risks of HRT might be worth avoiding the suffering that menopause symptoms bring. My depressive symptoms were never cured by therapy ..( and believe me, I treid every kind under the sun) …but they responded quite nicely to SSRIs. Your Mileage may vary , of course. ruth —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

And Furthermore…I am a woman who suffered from mood swings my entire life. I spent years in therapy trying to figure them out. I am just chock full of insight into my life, but that never helped the dang mood swings. In 1978 I suffered a major clinical depression…I wish that horror on no one. At the time I would have loved to take anti-depressants but couldn’t tolerate the only kind available to me. So I lived with it for many many years, and suffered for many many years. And then came the arrival of the SSRIS and I was able, for the first time, to be the me I had only glimpsed before….I was able to be a fully functioning human being. And no, they did not affect my libido( have no idea why) *Depression* affected my libido in a big way. I am uncommitted as far as HRT goes( leaning towards anti…for *me*),<snip ruth

Ruth, we have similar thoughts: I made the decision in my mid 30’s that if medication could give me 10 good years instead of 20 miserable ones, then I would take the 10.  I suffered from chronic depression and severe PMS.  I was one of the first in my province to go the Prozac and natural progesterone route in the early ’80’s.  I even had to learn to give myself progesterone injections as we didn’t have any other options in those days. That combination probably saved my life – literally.  It was a decision that my husband and I made together – it was worth it as it gave *me* back to my family. Sexually, it was a disaster, but that also was a choice.  I suffer from the upheaval of PCO with its physical, reproductive and health issues.  So, here I am at the end of my reproductive life – a woman who has bombarded her body with chemicals willingly – and if my time is cut short on this planet, then so be it. Carone

Response:

rufie <rufie…@rcn.com

wrote in message

news:rufie710-1202001231560001@207-172-127-192.s192.tnt1.fmt.nj.dialup.rcn.c om… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

In article <38A51192.ECB46…@interaccess.com, HomemakerJ <ho…@interaccess.com wrote: John Mc Bride wrote: Average age to begin peri-menopause is said to be 36. You mean I was entering perimenopause when I was having my babies? Oh my .  It is a long and gradual process to full menopause at average age 52. with my luck I won’t hit it until I am 60. <sigh Is it normal to go through a super tampax in a half an hour??

I’ve gone through them faster than that, so if it’s not normal, we’re in the same boat. Marilee – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Ruth, going out for more chocolate. —

Response:

Oh, and at that time I wasn’t sure I was peri-menopausal.  I asked heaps of doctors and they all said I was too young (early 40s).  The only gynaecologist I saw said I was a neurotic female and needed to stop seeing so many doctors – he was right about that latter part, he he. Jan * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

In article <WQip4.470$Z4.46…@news.corpcomm.net

, "Marilee"

<mae…@polarcomm.com

wrote: Is it normal to go through a super tampax in a half an hour?? I’ve gone through them faster than that, so if it’s not normal,

we’re in the

same boat.

You bet! My worst was for months when they were erratic (light with short cycle or super heavy with long cycle) and I resorted to using 2 super tampons plus sanitary napkin, go back to my work desk and less than 15 minutes later have to CHARGE to the ladies’ room.  But then, that wasn’t as bad as the days I had to sit at the front of a District Court (back facing a judge) and every time he moved (never in female judges’ courts those days!) we all had to rise and bow.  That used to terrify me in case something was showing – and I could under no circumstances leave the court during those times either.  Strangely enough, the middle aged, mainly female, bosses didn’t give a damn. Jan

Marilee Ruth, going out for more chocolate. —

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

"Joan Livingston" <joan.livingst…@gte.net

wrote in message

news:kJhp4.285$ek5.13490@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

 And then, on Sat, 12 Feb 2000 04:55:08 GMT,  "Janet Hardy" <ver…@earthlink.net, said this: :Crying jags, immobilizing depressions and self-destructive impulses

are > not, > >> :goddammit, a "new sense of assertiveness and speaking up and speaking > out." >   Never said they were. What you are describing appears to be a major > psychosis…. > rufie wrote in message … > >In article <+E+lODpf4wAWPHxlTAtNuNLBp…@4ax.com>, AneeB…@bigfoot.com > wrote:

 And then, on Sat, 12 Feb 2000 04:55:08 GMT,  "Janet Hardy" <ver…@earthlink.net, said this: :Crying jags, immobilizing depressions and self-destructive impulses

are

not, :goddammit, a "new sense of assertiveness and speaking up and speaking out."   Never said they were. What you are describing appears to be a major psychosis…

Oh for heaven’s sake. If it was a "major psychosis," then I was the world’s most functional psychotic — holding down several romantic relationships, parenting two young adult children and running a successful business. And then I’d come home, close the door and quietly (or not so quietly) fall apart. What they were was mood swings, by any definition of the term as I understand it — periods of relative normalcy alternating with periods of irrational anger and/or sadness and/or fatigue, for no discernible external reasons. I was not schizophrenic. I was not bipolar. I was not depressed. I fit no criteria for psychosis, major or minor. I was on a predictable, cyclic hormonal roller coaster, a ride that was getting wilder and wilder as I came closer and closer to meno. It is possible that I may have to be on it again, if it turns out that the low-dose BC pills I’ve been taking are contributing to the GI symptoms I’m experiencing. I’m not looking forward to the idea. Why is it so difficult for you to concede that this is possible? You’re all too happy to point the finger at exogenous hormones as powerful drugs (which they are) — why is it so unthinkable that the hormones one’s own body produces can be responsible for emotional instability? Verdant

Response:

In article <rufie710-1202001231560…@207-172-127-192.s192.tnt1.fmt.nj.dialup.rcn.com

,

rufie <rufie…@rcn.com

wrote: Is it normal to go through a super tampax in a half an hour??

For some of us, during certain phases of perimenopause, yup, it’s normal. A pain in the ass, but normal.

Ruth, going out for more chocolate.

Never a bad idea … –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

I believe we have far more choice in our lives, that is all. We are complex systems and the mind affects the body as much as the body affects the mind. The "divinity" of the human condition is choice. J J…@lotos-land.demon.co.uk wrote in message

<38a96cc1.2187…@news.demon.co.uk

…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 06:19:08 GMT, "Janet Hardy" <ver…@earthlink.net wrote, in response to Joan: Why is it so difficult for you to concede that this is possible? You’re

all

too happy to point the finger at exogenous hormones as powerful drugs

(which

they are) — why is it so unthinkable that the hormones one’s own body produces can be responsible for emotional instability? I think it’s because it doesn’t accord with one type of feminist thinking, the one which requires any woman who wants to make it in a man’s world to be as much like men as possible. It’s an understandable reaction in one way if any justifiable anger, irritation or unhappiness has been countered by:  ’it’s just your hormones, dear’. For eternity, it’s been OK to be a testosterone driven, power-hungry, crabby, miserable old fart _all the time_ but not a weepy, sensitive and irritable woman for one week a month. Joanna http://members.tripod.com/menopause/<links http://www.oxford.net/~tishy/beyond.html <contents Click on the cormorant to move between the two.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Janet Hardy" <ver…@earthlink.net

writes: "Joan Livingston" <joan.livingst…@gte.net wrote in message news:kJhp4.285$ek5.13490@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net…  And then, on Sat, 12 Feb 2000 04:55:08 GMT,  "Janet Hardy" <ver…@earthlink.net, said this: :Crying jags, immobilizing depressions and  :self-destructive impulses are not, goddammit,  : a "new sense of assertiveness and speaking up  :and speaking out."   Never said they were. What you are describing appears to be a major psychosis…. Oh for heaven’s sake. If it was a "major psychosis," then I was the world’s most functional psychotic — holding down several romantic relationships, parenting two young adult children and running a successful business. And then I’d come home, close the door and quietly (or not so quietly) fall apart. What they were was mood swings, by any definition of the term as I understand it — periods of relative normalcy alternating with periods of irrational anger and/or sadness and/or fatigue, for no discernible external reasons. I was not schizophrenic. I was not bipolar. I was not depressed. I fit no criteria for psychosis, major or minor. I was on a predictable, cyclic hormonal roller coaster, a ride that was getting wilder and wilder as I came closer and closer to meno. It is possible that I may have to be on it again, if it turns out that the low-dose BC pills I’ve been taking are contributing to the GI symptoms I’m experiencing. I’m not looking forward to the idea.

Oh, ick.  I’m really sorry.  I’d say I hope the GI symptoms are from something else, but that might or might not be good news.  I wish you luck. I have more minor mood swings and found that evening primrose oil really did help me with them, but its side effects can also include GI problems, so I don’t know if it would do you any good. Things change all the time in peri; maybe your mood-swing time is behind you.

Why is it so difficult for you to concede that this is possible? You’re all too happy to point the finger at exogenous hormones as powerful drugs (which they are) — why is it so unthinkable that the hormones one’s own body produces can be responsible for emotional instability?

*sustained applause* Sorry for quoting the entire thing, but I think this is warranted. Taking a pill once a day is not mainlining; mood swings are not psychosis. And I particularly appreciate your last paragraph.  If hormones are powerful, then they’re powerful. — Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet           (p…@demesne.com) "I will open my heart to a blank page    and interview the witnesses."  John M. Ford, "Shared World"

Response:

John Mc Bride wrote:

Now I am just starting to pull together as much data as I can and its primarily due to a comment that the wife made to me the other day when she stated that her sexual energy is gone and it almost has a sickening effect on here.

Women have reported nausea and hotflashes as well as physical discomfort during peri-menopause when having sex.  This loss of libido is ordinarily temporary, although it may not seem so to both parties at the time.

Now there is a side topic here that she is also on an anti depressant and (Efexor) and has been for the last 6 years and this has seemed to cause our sexlife to slow down.

Possible.

 The reason for the anti depressants was that she started having mood swings about a year earlier and of course that is the pill of choice.  Now I thought back at the time that she stated these that she had started a premenopause phase now she was only 39 but had lost ovary 3 years before (no I am not an MD).

Average age to begin peri-menopause is said to be 36.  It is a long and gradual process to full menopause at average age 52.  Loss of one ovary might also bring on the symptoms of peri-menopause.

 She also suffered from hot flashes and mood swings and depression and infrequent periods before that DR was convinced.  Now the she was finally able to convince the DR that she was menopausal and she just recently started on a Hormone therapy that consisted of estrogen and progesterone

Estrogen and progesterone are not known to help loss of libido or mood swings or depression.  They *may* help hotflashes.  They also come with a basketful of risks which need to be considered.

We tried a herbal solution Avena Sativa

It is a shame, but not uncommon that your wife didn’t have more information and support when she began her peri-menopause.  Perhaps the best and kindest thing you could do for her would be to set her up so she could read and post to this newsgroup.  To be able to talk to other women who understand how she is feeling and what she has experienced is often quite calming and healing in itself.  It has been my best medicine.  Menopause is not a disease that necessarily requires drug treatment of any kind.  It is a part of life for a woman, although some of the things that happen during the process can be alarming or upsetting when one doesn’t understand what to expect.  Many women just expect that when they get older their periods will stop.  It’s not quite that easy. Your post was not offensive.  There are other men reading the newsgroup as well. Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ

Response:

In article <785p4.920$cH3.36…@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net

, "Joan Livingston"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<joan.livingst…@gte.net

wrote: Hi Johh, You may want to broaden your reading about menopause and HRT before you assume this is some universal panacea, even though that is its popular reputation, created by drug company advertising. How about backing up and having your wife explore what else may be behind "mood swings" that lead to the use of anti-depressants. No, this is not the drug of choice for "mood swings".  Your wife’s health history is someone prime for menopause, the age is correct and the prior pelvic surgery may have accelerated the loss of ovarian function, which in fact may be more than "menopause". This needs to be checked out. Was their surgical damage to her remaining ovary after the first surgery?   Has you wife worked with a therapeutic counselor for the "mood swings" and explored non-drug ways of looking into this feeling? Many women define "mood swings" in vastly different ways, and sometimes it is just a blossoming of a new sense of assertiveness and speaking up and speaking out, boldly and brashly that comes with a news sense of autonomy that many women also report at this time. There are multiple stories about new assertive behavior that surprise the woman, but when viewed from a more detached perspective, are in fact healing and wonderul moments.    The drug your wife is taking is a known libido killler,

Uh, not necessarily. —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In article <+E+lODpf4wAWPHxlTAtNuNLBp…@4ax.com

, AneeB…@bigfoot.com wrote:  And then, on Sat, 12 Feb 2000 04:55:08 GMT,  "Janet Hardy" <ver…@earthlink.net, said this: :Crying jags, immobilizing depressions and self-destructive impulses are not, :goddammit, a "new sense of assertiveness and speaking up and speaking out." :What I am doing *now* is being assertive and speaking out — in order to :tell you, Joan, that much as you’d like to put some wonderful feminist slant n some of the emotional effects of peri, the fact is that it is sometimes a :flat-out hormonal derangement that impairs the sufferer’s ability to lead a :normal, productive life. But if you’re inclined toward a feminist viewpoint, :allow me to remind you of the consciousness-raising standard that states :"Never tell anybody else what she’s feeling." What she said. AneeBear

And Furthermore…I am a woman who suffered from mood swings my entire life. I spent years in therapy trying to figure them out. I am just chock full of insight into my life, but that never helped the dang mood swings. In 1978 I suffered a major clinical depression…I wish that horror on no one. At the time I would have loved to take anti-depressants but couldn’t tolerate the only kind available to me. So I lived with it for many many years, and suffered for many many years. And then came the arrival of the SSRIS and I was able, for the first time, to be the me I had only glimpsed before….I was able to be a fully functioning human being. And no, they did not affect my libido( have no idea why) *Depression* affected my libido in a big way. I am uncommitted as far as HRT goes( leaning towards anti…for *me*), but I do want to state here and now, that not all drugs are evil . I owe my life to one or two…..I also work in the mental health field and what I have seen done for the chronic mentally ill by some of the newest drugs for Schizophrenia ( for example) has been nothing short of miraculous.  Yes, women are screwed over by the medical world, I have seen that over and over again…but to denegrate the idea of medicine entirely is just plain silly. And life is a trade off…..for me it is worth it to put these drugs in my body. I have a lot of experience with this and I cannot emphasize enough just how much relief these drugs have given me. And it makes sense to me that this can also be true for HRT…………everyone is different. We are just now at the very first stages of understanding how our brains and bodies work….. for some folks, the risks of HRT might be worth avoiding the suffering that menopause symptoms bring. My depressive symptoms were never cured by therapy ..( and believe me, I treid every kind under the sun) …but they responded quite nicely to SSRIs. Your Mileage may vary , of course. ruth —

Response:

"Joan Livingston" <joan.livingst…@gte.net

wrote in message

news:785p4.920$cH3.36971@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net… Many women define "mood

swings" in vastly different ways, and sometimes it is just a blossoming of

a

new sense of assertiveness and speaking up and speaking out, boldly and brashly that comes with a news sense of autonomy that many women also

report

at this time. There are multiple stories about new assertive behavior that surprise the woman, but when viewed from a more detached perspective, are

in

fact healing and wonderul moments.

Crying jags, immobilizing depressions and self-destructive impulses are not, goddammit, a "new sense of assertiveness and speaking up and speaking out." What I am doing *now* is being assertive and speaking out — in order to tell you, Joan, that much as you’d like to put some wonderful feminist slant on some of the emotional effects of peri, the fact is that it is sometimes a flat-out hormonal derangement that impairs the sufferer’s ability to lead a normal, productive life. But if you’re inclined toward a feminist viewpoint, allow me to remind you of the consciousness-raising standard that states "Never tell anybody else what she’s feeling." Verdant

Response:

Thanks Pat..    Yes you are right and we will get through this..  Now I don’t know that she would join in the group as she is quite shy but agree that its a good idea.   Good data.. Pat Kight <kig…@ucs.orst.edu

wrote in message

news:882mvo$iqg$1@news.NERO.NET… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

In article <vK4p4.5125$LC4.133…@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net, John Mc Bride <McBrid…@worldnet.att.net wrote: Now I am just starting to pull together as much data as I can and its primarily due to a comment that the wife made to me the other day when

she

stated that her sexual energy is gone and it almost has a sickening

effect

on here.  This one was a big change for a woman that used to be very

sensual

and really started me investigating and getting as much information as possible. Hi, John, and welcome to the newsgroup. While I know you have other concerns, you might want to take a look at http://www.empireone.net/~mrraffer/partner/libido_in_perimenopause.html a page that was put together by a man who posted in this newsgroup for a time, mostly out of archived discussions we’ve had in the past on the subject of lost libido. Now the she was finally able to convince the DR that she was menopausal

and

she just recently started on a Hormone therapy that consisted of estrogen and progesterone and that seemed to help some but I think its time for us

to

see a new Dr and one that specializes in HRT and we are doing so on

Monday.

We tried a herbal solution Avena Sativa and that did not seem to have an effect except that she did say she had a rather interesting and exciting dream but she was worried that it was messing with the other hormones as

she

seemed to experience more hot flashes. I assume you’re seeing some sort of reproductive endocrinologist? That’s not a bad first step, but it would also be wise to do your own homework, as a couple, and learn the potential risks and benefits of the hormone drugs that may be prescribed. There are several good resources out there; one of them is Dr. Susan Love’s Hormone Book, which should be available at your public library. Be aware, though, that even this good book is a few years old, and some very recent studies have added extra caution to the whole HRT question. Now I don’t by any means want to give anyone the idea that this is a

sexual

issue as there is so much more that goes along with this time of life and

I

have a very loving and trusting sole mate and I just hate to see her go through the pain and discomfort that this is causing her. It may be helpful if she can get on line herself and visit this newsgroup. Many of us have found a surprising amount of relief from our "symptoms" by simply having other women to talk with who know what it’s like. I was curious if anyone else had been placed on depressants and then went

to

HRT treatments how they faired.. I believe we do have some current posters who are in this boat, and hopefully they’ll come forward with some comments. Meanwhile, you and your wife might gain some comfort from the knowledge that, for many of us, the roughest spots of the years leading up to full menopause are transient. Some of us have found that, just about the time we think we can’t take a particular symptom any more, it lets up of its own accord. The good news is, none of this is forever. It’s a stage, a transition, and women (and their partners) have been getting through it since the beginning of time. Regards, –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

John, There is no data. Menopause has not been well studied. All drugs used on menopausal woman are strictly trial and error. Know this ahead of time.  Currently there is the very first independent study being done on HRT and the results will not be out until 2005. Don’t let any doctor fool you with a drug company dog-and-pony show that she/he tries to palm off as facts. They are pretty easy to spot after you have heard the 100th one. First, you need to explore the "mood swings" and the depression. J John Mc Bride wrote in message

<3M5p4.5200$LC4.137…@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net

…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I agree that there are alternatives and that each should be looked at as I do worry about the side effects of being on chemicals especially ones that cant be measured.   I know I by no means have all the data and a this point am very open to every viewpoint as it seems that not one solution is right for everyone and sometimes its a mix and match as long as you know the

risks

and the benefits. We are scheduled to visit a women’s center with my wife and hope they are

at

the kind of DR that are just not one approach and share as much data with

us

on their approaches and successes. Thanks you for your thoughts.. John Joan Livingston <joan.livingst…@gte.net wrote in message news:785p4.920$cH3.36971@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net… Hi Johh, You may want to broaden your reading about menopause and HRT before you assume this is some universal panacea, even though that is its popular reputation, created by drug company advertising. How about backing up and having your wife explore what else may be behind "mood swings" that lead to the use of anti-depressants. No, this is not the drug of choice for "mood swings".  Your wife’s health history is someone prime for menopause, the age is correct and the prior pelvic surgery may have accelerated the loss of ovarian function, which in fact may be more than "menopause". This needs to be checked out. Was their surgical damage to her remaining ovary after

the

first surgery?   Has you wife worked with a therapeutic counselor for the "mood swings" and explored non-drug ways of looking into this feeling? Many women define "mood swings" in vastly different ways, and sometimes it is just a blossoming

of

a new sense of assertiveness and speaking up and speaking out, boldly and brashly that comes with a news sense of autonomy that many women also report at this time. There are multiple stories about new assertive behavior

that

surprise the woman, but when viewed from a more detached perspective, are in fact healing and wonderul moments.    The drug your wife is taking is a known libido killler, and that is

why

more education on the topic of menopause, depression, "mood swings" and non-drug alternatives is really a good course to persue. I hope you do

not

start thinking about layering one drug on top of another. Plus the FDA

HRT

drug warning label says right up front that it has not shown to be of any value for "emotional problems."    Take a look at the volunteer website put together by some of the posters here. Can your wife join this group so she can explore a lot of these things too? But if not, there is even a section on the website for men, and you can print out some of the articles and commentary that you think she may be interested in.  You can find it at: www.oxford.net/~tishy/beyond.html    There is lots to learn about all of this, and the range of opinions

and

facts on this newsgroup is diverse. Mine is only one of many approaches

to

all of this. And I am clearly no fan of HRT, so know this when you read what my choices would be. Take care and welcome, J John Mc Bride wrote in message … Now I am just starting to pull together as much data as I can and its primarily due to a comment that the wife made to me the other day when she stated that her sexual energy is gone and it almost has a sickening effect on here.  This one was a big change for a woman that used to be very sensual and really started me investigating and getting as much information as possible.  Now there is a side topic here that she is also on an anti depressant and (Efexor) and has been for the last 6 years and this has seemed to cause our sexlife to slow down.  The reason for the anti depressants was that she started having mood swings about a year earlier and of course that is the pill of choice.  Now I thought back at the time that she stated these that she had started a premenopause phase now she was only 39 but had lost ovary 3 years before (no I am not an MD).  She also suffered from hot flashes and mood swings and depression and infrequent periods before that DR was convinced. Now the she was finally able to convince the DR that she was menopausal and she just recently started on a Hormone therapy that consisted of

estrogen

and progesterone and that seemed to help some but I think its time for

us

to see a new Dr and one that specializes in HRT and we are doing so on Monday. We tried a herbal solution Avena Sativa and that did not seem to have an effect except that she did say she had a rather interesting and exciting dream but she was worried that it was messing with the other hormones as she seemed to experience more hot flashes. Now I don’t by any means want to give anyone the idea that this is a sexual issue as there is so much more that goes along with this time of life

and

I have a very loving and trusting sole mate and I just hate to see her go through the pain and discomfort that this is causing her. I was curious if anyone else had been placed on depressants and then

went

to HRT treatments how they faired.. Thanks John

Response:

In article <vK4p4.5125$LC4.133…@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net

,

John Mc Bride <McBrid…@worldnet.att.net

wrote: Now I am just starting to pull together as much data as I can and its primarily due to a comment that the wife made to me the other day when she stated that her sexual energy is gone and it almost has a sickening effect on here.  This one was a big change for a woman that used to be very sensual and really started me investigating and getting as much information as possible.

Hi, John, and welcome to the newsgroup. While I know you have other concerns, you might want to take a look at http://www.empireone.net/~mrraffer/partner/libido_in_perimenopause.html a page that was put together by a man who posted in this newsgroup for a time, mostly out of archived discussions we’ve had in the past on the subject of lost libido.

Now the she was finally able to convince the DR that she was menopausal and she just recently started on a Hormone therapy that consisted of estrogen and progesterone and that seemed to help some but I think its time for us to see a new Dr and one that specializes in HRT and we are doing so on Monday. We tried a herbal solution Avena Sativa and that did not seem to have an effect except that she did say she had a rather interesting and exciting dream but she was worried that it was messing with the other hormones as she seemed to experience more hot flashes.

I assume you’re seeing some sort of reproductive endocrinologist? That’s not a bad first step, but it would also be wise to do your own homework, as a couple, and learn the potential risks and benefits of the hormone drugs that may be prescribed. There are several good resources out there; one of them is Dr. Susan Love’s Hormone Book, which should be available at your public library. Be aware, though, that even this good book is a few years old, and some very recent studies have added extra caution to the whole HRT question.

Now I don’t by any means want to give anyone the idea that this is a sexual issue as there is so much more that goes along with this time of life and I have a very loving and trusting sole mate and I just hate to see her go through the pain and discomfort that this is causing her.

It may be helpful if she can get on line herself and visit this newsgroup. Many of us have found a surprising amount of relief from our "symptoms" by simply having other women to talk with who know what it’s like.

I was curious if anyone else had been placed on depressants and then went to HRT treatments how they faired..

I believe we do have some current posters who are in this boat, and hopefully they’ll come forward with some comments. Meanwhile, you and your wife might gain some comfort from the knowledge that, for many of us, the roughest spots of the years leading up to full menopause are transient. Some of us have found that, just about the time we think we can’t take a particular symptom any more, it lets up of its own accord. The good news is, none of this is forever. It’s a stage, a transition, and women (and their partners) have been getting through it since the beginning of time. Regards, –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

I agree that there are alternatives and that each should be looked at as I do worry about the side effects of being on chemicals especially ones that cant be measured.   I know I by no means have all the data and a this point am very open to every viewpoint as it seems that not one solution is right for everyone and sometimes its a mix and match as long as you know the risks and the benefits. We are scheduled to visit a women’s center with my wife and hope they are at the kind of DR that are just not one approach and share as much data with us on their approaches and successes. Thanks you for your thoughts.. John Joan Livingston <joan.livingst…@gte.net

wrote in message

news:785p4.920$cH3.36971@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hi Johh, You may want to broaden your reading about menopause and HRT before you assume this is some universal panacea, even though that is its popular reputation, created by drug company advertising. How about backing up and having your wife explore what else may be behind "mood swings" that lead

to

the use of anti-depressants. No, this is not the drug of choice for "mood swings".  Your wife’s health history is someone prime for menopause, the

age

is correct and the prior pelvic surgery may have accelerated the loss of ovarian function, which in fact may be more than "menopause". This needs

to

be checked out. Was their surgical damage to her remaining ovary after the first surgery?   Has you wife worked with a therapeutic counselor for the "mood swings"

and

explored non-drug ways of looking into this feeling? Many women define

"mood

swings" in vastly different ways, and sometimes it is just a blossoming of

a

new sense of assertiveness and speaking up and speaking out, boldly and brashly that comes with a news sense of autonomy that many women also

report

at this time. There are multiple stories about new assertive behavior that surprise the woman, but when viewed from a more detached perspective, are

in

fact healing and wonderul moments.    The drug your wife is taking is a known libido killler, and that is why more education on the topic of menopause, depression, "mood swings" and non-drug alternatives is really a good course to persue. I hope you do not start thinking about layering one drug on top of another. Plus the FDA HRT drug warning label says right up front that it has not shown to be of any value for "emotional problems."    Take a look at the volunteer website put together by some of the

posters

here. Can your wife join this group so she can explore a lot of these

things

too? But if not, there is even a section on the website for men, and you

can

print out some of the articles and commentary that you think she may be interested in.  You can find it at: www.oxford.net/~tishy/beyond.html    There is lots to learn about all of this, and the range of opinions and facts on this newsgroup is diverse. Mine is only one of many approaches to all of this. And I am clearly no fan of HRT, so know this when you read

what

my choices would be. Take care and welcome, J John Mc Bride wrote in message … Now I am just starting to pull together as much data as I can and its primarily due to a comment that the wife made to me the other day when

she

stated that her sexual energy is gone and it almost has a sickening

effect

on here.  This one was a big change for a woman that used to be very sensual and really started me investigating and getting as much information as possible.  Now there is a side topic here that she is also on an anti depressant and (Efexor) and has been for the last 6 years and this has seemed to cause our sexlife to slow down.  The reason for the anti depressants was that she started having mood swings about a year earlier and of course that is the pill of choice.  Now I thought back at the time

that

she stated these that she had started a premenopause phase now she was

only

39 but had lost ovary 3 years before (no I am not an MD).  She also suffered from hot flashes and mood swings and depression and infrequent periods before that DR was convinced. Now the she was finally able to convince the DR that she was menopausal

and

she just recently started on a Hormone therapy that consisted of estrogen and progesterone and that seemed to help some but I think its time for us to see a new Dr and one that specializes in HRT and we are doing so on

Monday.

We tried a herbal solution Avena Sativa and that did not seem to have an effect except that she did say she had a rather interesting and exciting dream but she was worried that it was messing with the other hormones as she seemed to experience more hot flashes. Now I don’t by any means want to give anyone the idea that this is a

sexual

issue as there is so much more that goes along with this time of life and

I

have a very loving and trusting sole mate and I just hate to see her go through the pain and discomfort that this is causing her. I was curious if anyone else had been placed on depressants and then went to HRT treatments how they faired.. Thanks John

Response:

Now I am just starting to pull together as much data as I can and its primarily due to a comment that the wife made to me the other day when she stated that her sexual energy is gone and it almost has a sickening effect on here.  This one was a big change for a woman that used to be very sensual and really started me investigating and getting as much information as possible.  Now there is a side topic here that she is also on an anti depressant and (Efexor) and has been for the last 6 years and this has seemed to cause our sexlife to slow down.  The reason for the anti depressants was that she started having mood swings about a year earlier and of course that is the pill of choice.  Now I thought back at the time that she stated these that she had started a premenopause phase now she was only 39 but had lost ovary 3 years before (no I am not an MD).  She also suffered from hot flashes and mood swings and depression and infrequent periods before that DR was convinced. Now the she was finally able to convince the DR that she was menopausal and she just recently started on a Hormone therapy that consisted of estrogen and progesterone and that seemed to help some but I think its time for us to see a new Dr and one that specializes in HRT and we are doing so on Monday. We tried a herbal solution Avena Sativa and that did not seem to have an effect except that she did say she had a rather interesting and exciting dream but she was worried that it was messing with the other hormones as she seemed to experience more hot flashes. Now I don’t by any means want to give anyone the idea that this is a sexual issue as there is so much more that goes along with this time of life and I have a very loving and trusting sole mate and I just hate to see her go through the pain and discomfort that this is causing her. I was curious if anyone else had been placed on depressants and then went to HRT treatments how they faired.. Thanks John

Response:

Hi Johh, You may want to broaden your reading about menopause and HRT before you assume this is some universal panacea, even though that is its popular reputation, created by drug company advertising. How about backing up and having your wife explore what else may be behind "mood swings" that lead to the use of anti-depressants. No, this is not the drug of choice for "mood swings".  Your wife’s health history is someone prime for menopause, the age is correct and the prior pelvic surgery may have accelerated the loss of ovarian function, which in fact may be more than "menopause". This needs to be checked out. Was their surgical damage to her remaining ovary after the first surgery?   Has you wife worked with a therapeutic counselor for the "mood swings" and explored non-drug ways of looking into this feeling? Many women define "mood swings" in vastly different ways, and sometimes it is just a blossoming of a new sense of assertiveness and speaking up and speaking out, boldly and brashly that comes with a news sense of autonomy that many women also report at this time. There are multiple stories about new assertive behavior that surprise the woman, but when viewed from a more detached perspective, are in fact healing and wonderul moments.    The drug your wife is taking is a known libido killler, and that is why more education on the topic of menopause, depression, "mood swings" and non-drug alternatives is really a good course to persue. I hope you do not start thinking about layering one drug on top of another. Plus the FDA HRT drug warning label says right up front that it has not shown to be of any value for "emotional problems."    Take a look at the volunteer website put together by some of the posters here. Can your wife join this group so she can explore a lot of these things too? But if not, there is even a section on the website for men, and you can print out some of the articles and commentary that you think she may be interested in.  You can find it at: www.oxford.net/~tishy/beyond.html    There is lots to learn about all of this, and the range of opinions and facts on this newsgroup is diverse. Mine is only one of many approaches to all of this. And I am clearly no fan of HRT, so know this when you read what my choices would be. Take care and welcome, J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -John Mc Bride wrote in message …

Now I am just starting to pull together as much data as I can and its primarily due to a comment that the wife made to me the other day when she stated that her sexual energy is gone and it almost has a sickening effect on here.  This one was a big change for a woman that used to be very

sensual

and really started me investigating and getting as much information as possible.  Now there is a side topic here that she is also on an anti depressant and (Efexor) and has been for the last 6 years and this has seemed to cause our sexlife to slow down.  The reason for the anti depressants was that she started having mood swings about a year earlier

and

of course that is the pill of choice.  Now I thought back at the time that she stated these that she had started a premenopause phase now she was only 39 but had lost ovary 3 years before (no I am not an MD).  She also

suffered

from hot flashes and mood swings and depression and infrequent periods before that DR was convinced. Now the she was finally able to convince the DR that she was menopausal and she just recently started on a Hormone therapy that consisted of estrogen and progesterone and that seemed to help some but I think its time for us

to

see a new Dr and one that specializes in HRT and we are doing so on Monday. We tried a herbal solution Avena Sativa and that did not seem to have an effect except that she did say she had a rather interesting and exciting dream but she was worried that it was messing with the other hormones as

she

seemed to experience more hot flashes. Now I don’t by any means want to give anyone the idea that this is a sexual issue as there is so much more that goes along with this time of life and I have a very loving and trusting sole mate and I just hate to see her go through the pain and discomfort that this is causing her. I was curious if anyone else had been placed on depressants and then went

to

HRT treatments how they faired.. Thanks John

Response:

Question:

Okay, another amendment.  Apparently the FDA reissued the warning.  So here’s the full article, dated today. The article says it shouldn’t be prescribed for patients with eating disorders.   JANUARY 24, 18:52 EST FDA Issues Heartburn Drug Warning By LAURAN NEERGAARD AP Medical Writer WASHINGTON (AP)

Question:

Vitamin E can cause hairloss. There is a good deal of unscientific misinformation out there about menopause, typcially with untested (and expensive) products to sell. Many of us here have been trying to track down the facts in all of this as best we can understand them, beyond the marketing claims and persona tesitimonies (some times from those who are selling the stuff). A good place to start to get some of the menopause "basics" down are the following: "The Menopause Industry" by Sandra Coney Dr Susan Love’s Hormone Book: Making Informed Choices About Menopause This newsgroup’s volunteer website:   www.oxford.net/~tishy/beyond.html   There is little in either science or corroboration that supports the use of the OTC "natural" progesterone creams. And please be careful with the Vit E for the possible hairloss.    Actually 65% of women allegedly have few to no problems with menopause, so it sounds like you are doing just fine and this transition is now behind you. It may be better to deal with each problem that comes up specifically for cause and effect, and not get too led astray by all the current menopause marketing hype labeling everything that can happen at midlife, a problem that can be "cured" with there products.   Another good midlife book is "New Passages" by Gail Sheehey, and a great book to help rethink how the female body works is "Woman"An Intimate Geography" by Natalie Angier   Quite a reading list right off the bat, eh? But within these books you will find a very broad survey of the many issues that it sounds like that are interesting you now. Best wishes and welcome, J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -birn…@my-deja.com wrote in message <7o9kvh$g9…@nnrp1.deja.com

… In article <37A7D084.959C…@interaccess.com,  HomemakerJ <ho…@interaccess.com wrote: Hi Elizabeth, EAH/JFH wrote: At 53, I have been period free for several years and generally have had an easy menopause. I’m so glad that you posted this.  It is nice news for those of us who have had a harder peri.  You finished early, and it was easy.  I have lost weight, walk every day, and generally keep active. I am 52 and past menopause I believe. No periods for about 2 years.  I had practically no symptoms. I actually feel better physically and mentally than I have most of my adult life.  The only change I noticed is that I noticed hair falling out in the shower and my sex drive has dropped to almost nothing.  I read about soy and began eating more tofu and tempeh and other soy products and I think the hair loss has stopped.  I guess I attribute it to the soy but maybe it would have stopped soon anyway.  The sex drive thing – I don’t know what to do about that.  Has anyone tried progesterone creams? I read about these in a couple of books. They say it needs to be natural progesterone in vit. E cream so I bought some and am trying it for a few months to see what happens.  I’ve only been using it for one month. The book said it could take 2-3 months for results if you have been into menopause for a while without doing anything. Has anyone tried this?  This menopause thing is kind of interesting… Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -HomemakerJ wrote in message <37A86602.11CBC…@interaccess.com

… Robert Ames wrote: (snip of lots of other good options) But you needn’t use hormones to suppress the cytokines that are causing aches and pains; certain edible oils will do the job also. In particular, omega-3 fatty acids such as are found in fish oil will do the trick, as will GLA, which is found in borage seed oil and evening primrose oil.  Note that oils containing omega-3 can cause you to bleed more easily. Yep.  I forgot about this, probably because I’m avoiding evening primrose oil for my fibroids. Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ

      A fairly reliable resource for more information when trying to use "herbals" etc is the book "The Honest Herbal" by Dr. Varro Tyler and the peer reviewed books you can get from the American Botanical Council. They have a website. It is hard to tell the marketing from the myths from the facts when it comes to these unregulated products, especially when they get touted on the internet.      One has to watch out for recommendations from those who may have commerical interests in their use. Hard to tell, so the best general advice, as always, is do your homework from a variety of resources. The two above have no profit interests in any particular products. J

Response:

J…@lotos-land.demon.co.uk wrote in message

<37c57d11.26816…@news.demon.co.uk

… On 4 Aug 1999 16:28:22 GMT, kig…@ucs.orst.edu (Pat Kight) wrote: The other was about libido loss. Unfortunately there was no source but it said that progesterone *excess* may cause loss of libido. Anyone heard of this?

  Haven’t heard of it, but when you think that progesterone is there to support a pregnancy, one could assume if the body is getting lots of this hormone it no longer thinks it needs to keep procreating. I dunno. J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Joanna

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Wed, 04 Aug 1999 18:23:59 GMT, J…@lotos-land.demon.co.uk wrote:

On 4 Aug 1999 16:28:22 GMT, kig…@ucs.orst.edu (Pat Kight) wrote: If you do decide to continue using the cream, we’d love to hear what effect, if any, it has on you as time goes by. Typically the only people we hear from  on this subject are trying to sell the stuff; it would be enlightening to hear what a user has to say. I’ve just returned from seeing my dental hygienist and while in the waiting room I picked up ‘Good Health’ magazine. There were two short articles which caught my eye. One was about male menopause and some research at Atlanta. I hope to do a web search on that later. The other was about libido loss. Unfortunately there was no source but it said that progesterone *excess* may cause loss of libido. Anyone heard of this? Joanna

I’m not sure such a thing (progesterone excess) is biologiclly possible if you haven’t been taking progesterone in some form when it isn’t necessary i.e. you are still ovulating. Of course one might have a persistent corpus luteal cyst but these are very rare too if you aren’t taking exogenous progesterone. I think the only source for "excess progesterone" is from outside and it’s easily cured – dump the pills/cream whatever and wait out the lingering side effects. Terri aka DH001

Response:

Hi birneta,   I’ve noticed in reading the posts on a.s.m. that some women, particularly those that tend to have an easy menopause get some symptoms afterwards. So, to both of the symptoms you have indicated, perhaps this is a temporary thing as they are listed on the 33 symptoms list. birn…@my-deja.com wrote:

I actually feel better physically and mentally than I have most of my adult life.

One of my dearest friends, who has slipped into an easy menopause is saying the very same thing.  Doesn’t it feel good?

The only change I noticed is that I noticed hair falling out in the shower

You could pay attention to what you are eating and make sure it is particularly designed with good healthy hair in mind.  Also, look for things you may be taking, such as Vitamin E which may cause hair to fall-out.  But, perhaps this is just a natural thinning that will soon stop.

and my sex drive has dropped to almost nothing.

That happens to alot of women in peri.  In most cases it’s not permanent. Some women have found that it’s nice to take a vacation and explore other aspects of their relationships.  Talking, for instance.  Or, if you have a desire to fix it before it comes back on it’s own, look for some posts by Robert in deja.com on the subject.

 I read about soy and began eating more tofu and tempeh and other soy products and I think the hair loss has stopped.  I guess I attribute it to the soy but maybe it would have stopped soon anyway.

If you’re feeling good, I’d hesitate to start messing around with soy or tofu as it may bring on hotflashes.

The sex drive thing – I don’t know what to do about that.  Has anyone tried progesterone creams?

Yes, women on this newsgroup have tried it for that.  The few women who raved about it no longer post here.  Some women say the prescription progesterone cream helped a little.  And some women experienced gut pain as a side effect. Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Wed, 04 Aug 1999 18:23:59 GMT, J…@lotos-land.demon.co.uk wrote:

On 4 Aug 1999 16:28:22 GMT, kig…@ucs.orst.edu (Pat Kight) wrote: If you do decide to continue using the cream, we’d love to hear what effect, if any, it has on you as time goes by. Typically the only people we hear from  on this subject are trying to sell the stuff; it would be enlightening to hear what a user has to say. I’ve just returned from seeing my dental hygienist and while in the waiting room I picked up ‘Good Health’ magazine. There were two short articles which caught my eye. One was about male menopause and some research at Atlanta. I hope to do a web search on that later. The other was about libido loss. Unfortunately there was no source but it said that progesterone *excess* may cause loss of libido. Anyone heard of this? Joanna

Yes. But not from John Lee <g

More particularly in the new version of the Canadian Consensus Conference on Menopause and Osteoporosis it says a similiar  thing only backwards….from the Chapter on Psychosexual Aspects.

Lack of progesterone has no adverse effects on sexual function. Progestin replacement, whether cyclic or con-tinuous, can indirectly affect sexuality by its negative influence on mood and well-being, and can cause a marked decrease in sexual activity when associated with frequent breakthrough bleeding. Lack of testosterone, particularly in women under-going surgical menopause, has been associated with decreased libido in some, but by no means all, women. 4 Testosterone replacement appears to enhance libido in premenopausal women undergoing bilateral oophorec-tomy. 5 Its role in natural menopause is less clear. 6,7

( then it follows with a bit more information on androgen therapy for women )

Reprinted from the Journal SOGC, November 1998, Volume 20, Number 13 December 1998, Volume 20, Number 14

[ this is from a pdf file I downloaded from the Clinical Practices Guidelines Infobase on the CMA webpage  http://www.cma.ca/cpgs/index.htm  ] Kathryn droz…@home.com

Response:

J…@lotos-land.demon.co.uk writes:

The other was about libido loss. Unfortunately there was no source but it said that progesterone *excess* may cause loss of libido. Anyone heard of this?

Sure.  One of the side effects listed for Provera, or any progestin, is change in libido, either up or down. Mine went up on Provera.  (But I sure wouldn’t recommend it for anything less than really scary symptoms, if then.)  I also lost weight on Provera, which is also listed as a possibility but can’t be very common, so possibly the libido change more often goes the other way as well. — Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (p…@ddb.com) "There is no shortage of frustrating blue perennials."         –Eleanor Perenyi

Response:

At 53, I have been period free for several years and generally have had an easy menopause.  I guess because of this, my doctor has not even suggested I take hormones.  But one question I have about hormone therapy — has anyone noticed that after taking hormones that your body doesn’t have as many "aches and pains."  The biggest change I have noticed since turning 50 is how "sore" my body feels. I have lost weight, walk every day, and generally keep active. Is this a problem anyone else has had?     Thanks Elizabeth

Response:

EAH/JFH wrote in message <37A79771.5…@erols.com

… At 53, I have been period free for several years and generally have had an easy menopause.  I guess because of this, my doctor has not even suggested I take hormones.  But one question I have about hormone therapy — has anyone noticed that after taking hormones that your body doesn’t have as many "aches and pains."  The biggest change I have noticed since turning 50 is how "sore" my body feels. I have lost weight, walk every day, and generally keep active. Is this a problem anyone else has had? Thanks Elizabeth

Follows is a general caution about off-label HRT use:   There are authorized "on label" uses for HRT and there is drug experimentation off-label. These are strong potent drugs to be handled with care. Please read the FDA drug warning label before starting on any course of drug experimentation with them to decide it you want to risk the potential harm they can cause. There is very little hard information about what they do, and when up against a placebo they do not even control hot flashes all that well.  So just make sure you know what you can upset in your system, what possible rebound effect they may have and the sources of your information that they may act  as a pain killer for non-specific "aches and pains."   More Japanese women report "aches and pains" during menopause than do Western women, according to one study found in "The Menopause Industry" by Sandra Coney. They report higher numbers of "stiff shoulder" and headache. So this seems to be an associated condition with midlife/menopause for some. Or perhaps as speculated, the consequence of too much soy in their diet.   Glucosamine has been shown to have some value as a "painkiller’ if you are interested in something that has a fairly reliable study to back it up, whencompared to other painkillers. But longterm, no one know what else it may do. Pain can be a mind/body alarm that needs investigating and accomodating, so I personally find it hard to recommend any "cover-up" drug or treatment without doing a good analysis of cause and other non-drug approaches first.  YMMV. J J

Response:

On 4 Aug 1999 03:06:47 GMT, Karen Kay <ka…@wordwrite.com

wrote:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Joan Livingston <joan.livingst…@gte.net

wrote:

>>   Glucosamine has been shown to have some value as a "painkiller’ if you are >> interested in something that has a fairly reliable study to back it up, >> whencompared to other painkillers. >This is misinformation, Joan. Glucosamine is not an analgesic, and no >one except you makes any claims for its use as a generic analgesic. >Glucosamine and chondroitin *together* (you never did read those >articles, did you?) have been shown to reduce joint pain. Only joint >pain. There has never been a claim AFAIK that g+c reduce headaches, >for example, as ibuprofen, which is a generic analgesic, does. >> But longterm, no one know what else it may do. >Most people who recommend glucosamine+chondroitin don’t recommend >staying on it longterm. >Karen >  ka…@wordwrite.com

An analgesic is something that relieves pain. It need not relieve all pain at all sites regardless of source to be an analgesic. Throat lozenges with local anesthetics relieve the pain of a sore throat. They are analgesics even though they won’t do much for any other kind of pain. There have been claims that g + c relieves joint pain. That makes it an analgesic – one specific for joint pain. Analgesic: 1. a remedy that relieves or allays pain, 2. pertaining to or causing analgesia. I saw nothing in Joan’s post which claimed g + c to be a "generic analgesic." Terri

Response:

Hi Elizabeth, EAH/JFH wrote:

At 53, I have been period free for several years and generally have had an easy menopause.

I’m so glad that you posted this.  It is nice news for those of us who have had a harder peri.  You finished early, and it was easy.

 I have lost weight, walk every day, and generally keep active.

Yet more good news.  You’ve lost weight!  And it sounds like you’re living right. This is very encouraging.  Welcome to a.s.m.  You are not the first woman to post about an easy menopause, but on this particular group they are too few and far between for my taste.  Perhaps someone has some questions for you about how you approached your menopause that made it so easy. I’m not post-menopause, but I did take HRT when my body hurt all over and I found it did not help at all.  Bananas and calcium helped, tho. Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ

Response:

On Tue, 03 Aug 1999 21:29:21 -0400, EAH/JFH <sa…@erols.com

wrote: But one question I have about hormone therapy — has anyone noticed that after taking hormones that your body doesn’t have as many "aches and pains."  The biggest change I have noticed since turning 50 is how "sore" my body feels. I have lost weight, walk every day, and generally keep active. Is this a problem anyone else has had?    

The steroid hormones in your body include the sex hormones (estrogen, testosterone, progesterone, and related substances like androstenedione), glucocorticoids like cortisol, aldosterone, etc. One thing that just about all steroids have in common is that they keep the levels of cytokines in check, or in other words a sufficient level of steroids ensures that cytokine level will not get too high, over the long run. Cytokines are chemical messengers produced for the most part by the cells of the immune system, like the white blood cells for example. An excessive level of cytokines can cause loss of lean body mass (muscle), chronic inflammation, and ACHES AND PAINS.   When both men and women reach age 50, their levels of sex hormones decline.  The result is an increase in cytokines, a decrease in lean body mass, a slower metabolism due to the decrease in lean body mass, increased frequency of autoimmune disease (which involves cytokines), and so on. Supplementing the hormone supply with (any) steroid will help this situation.  For example, DHEA would help.  For this reason, versions of DHEA are being developed that are "safe" in that they will not convert into sex hormones and thus raise the risk of cancer. But you needn’t use hormones to suppress the cytokines that are causing aches and pains; certain edible oils will do the job also. In particular, omega-3 fatty acids such as are found in fish oil will do the trick, as will GLA, which is found in borage seed oil and evening primrose oil.  Note that oils containing omega-3 can cause you to bleed more easily. Apart from this there are medicines that will suppress cytokines. These are of use to people such as those suffering from rheumatoid arthritis who have serious problems with inflammation and pain. A final remedy that may be tried is Cucurmin, which is contained (about 90%) in the spice Tumeric.  It not only helps with pain, but also has been shown to reduce the incidence of colon cancer by nearly half.

Response:

In article <37A7D084.959C…@interaccess.com

,

  HomemakerJ <ho…@interaccess.com

wrote: Hi Elizabeth, EAH/JFH wrote: At 53, I have been period free for several years and generally have

had

an easy menopause. I’m so glad that you posted this.  It is nice news for those of us

who have

had a harder peri.  You finished early, and it was easy.  I have lost weight, walk every day, and generally keep active.

I am 52 and past menopause I believe. No periods for about 2 years.  I had practically no symptoms. I actually feel better physically and mentally than I have most of my adult life.  The only change I noticed is that I noticed hair falling out in the shower and my sex drive has dropped to almost nothing.  I read about soy and began eating more tofu and tempeh and other soy products and I think the hair loss has stopped.  I guess I attribute it to the soy but maybe it would have stopped soon anyway.  The sex drive thing – I don’t know what to do about that.  Has anyone tried progesterone creams? I read about these in a couple of books. They say it needs to be natural progesterone in vit. E cream so I bought some and am trying it for a few months to see what happens.  I’ve only been using it for one month. The book said it could take 2-3 months for results if you have been into menopause for a while without doing anything. Has anyone tried this?  This menopause thing is kind of interesting… Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Robert Ames wrote:

(snip of lots of other good options)

But you needn’t use hormones to suppress the cytokines that are causing aches and pains; certain edible oils will do the job also. In particular, omega-3 fatty acids such as are found in fish oil will do the trick, as will GLA, which is found in borage seed oil and evening primrose oil.  Note that oils containing omega-3 can cause you to bleed more easily.

Yep.  I forgot about this, probably because I’m avoiding evening primrose oil for my fibroids. Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ

Response:

In article <7o9kvh$g9…@nnrp1.deja.com

,  <birn…@my-deja.com wrote: I am 52 and past menopause I believe. No periods for about 2 years.  I had practically no symptoms. I actually feel better physically and mentally than I have most of my adult life.  The only change I noticed is that I noticed hair falling out in the shower and my sex drive has dropped to almost nothing.  I read about soy and began eating more tofu and tempeh and other soy products and I think the hair loss has stopped.  I guess I attribute it to the soy but maybe it would have stopped soon anyway.

You’re probably right, but adding soy in the form of real food to your diet probably won’t do you any harm, and may be a generally healthier way to eat than whatever you are substituting the soy for.

 The sex drive thing – I don’t know what to do about that.  Has anyone tried progesterone creams? I read about these in a couple of books. They say it needs to be natural progesterone in vit. E cream so I bought some and am trying it for a few months to see what happens.  I’ve only been using it for one month. The book said it could take 2-3 months for results if you have been into menopause for a while without doing anything. Has anyone tried this?  This menopause thing is kind of interesting…

The over-the-counter "natural progesterone" products have a pretty shady reputation on this newsgroup, partly because the people who sell them tend to drop in here making all kinds of absurd claims for the products, including the outright lie that "natural progesterone" has "no side effects." There’s also the fact that, in the US, these OTC products are completely unregulated, so one has no way of knowing if they contain what they claim to contain. Which makes it awfully difficult to estimate dosage. What you may be getting is an expensive cosmetic cream which "works," if it works at all, by making you feel that you are doing something good for yourself. Not to say that these products are completely harmless. There’s a Web site which tracks the bad reactions some women have had to using NP creams, both over-the-counter and prescription versions. You might want to take a look at: http://members.xoom.com/diff_drummer/ Be especially wary of products which claim to use "wild yam" and list no other source of progesterone on the label. Mexican wild yam can, indeed, be converted in the laboratory to a form of progesterone, but our bodies are not capable of making the conversion. If you do decide to continue using the cream, we’d love to hear what effect, if any, it has on you as time goes by. Typically the only people we hear from  on this subject are trying to sell the stuff; it would be enlightening to hear what a user has to say. Regards, –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

Question:

In article <01bed9a5$f08609e0$b8e09cd1@merlincl

,

Marcie E Hascall <JUNG…@prodigy.net

wrote:     Actually I would love another form of progesterone to use that would be absorbable through the skin or even a really really slow time release thing.   I do not know of anything available.

Topical progestrone (cream and, I believe, gel) is available by prescription in the U.S., but since the drug companies evidently don’t think it profitable enough to produce, you need to have it made up, according to your doctor’s prescription, at a compounding pharmacy. Your physician ought to be able to help you find one. Having asked this question, by the way, you will probably start getting email from people offering to sell you over-the-counter "natural progesterone" cream. Personally, I’d tell them to take a hike. The OTC products are notoriously unreliable, and you have no sure way of knowing how much progesterone they contain, if any. Be especially leery of anyone hawking "wild yam cream." While wild yam contains chemicals that can be converted to progestrone in the lab, the human body can’t make the conversion. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

Marcie E Hascall wrote:

   My symptoms had become unbearable or I’d have never put a hormone into my body.  I think the effects of my symptoms are much more a contribution to the onset of cancer than the small amounts of progesterone I take to replace what my body is producing less of.

What do you mean by the effects of your symptoms?  What are your symptoms?  Do you have cancer? Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ

Response:

Marcie E Hascall wrote in message <01bed9a5$f08609e0$b8e09cd1@merlincl

… Theresa <there…@bigfoot.com wrote in article

Marcie wrote:

I would love to hear more on your statement that breast cancer is a "definite"…..     Breast cancer is a very major concern for me, all of us I guess. Your input is appreciated.  I have very little knowledge of the source and type of progesterone I am using. …

I thought you might find this info from the British National Formulary March 1999 useful. (the BNF contains prescribing info for doctors for all drugs available on NHS prescription in the UK) Perhaps I should say at this point that I’m not a doctor, I’m an RN and work as a health visitor/public health nurse in Essex England. I’ve got no "specialist" knowledge of perimeno/menopause – although I’ve certainly learnt a lot from this NG and my own experience of 7 years of perimeno. The most important thing I’ve discovered is not to believe anyone who offers a miracle cure, and to research all advice/recommendations thoroughly, even if it comes from an *expert*. End of lecture (beginning of BNF entry) PROGESTERONE Indications:   see under preparations. Cautions:      history of depression; diabetes; migraine; epilepsy; hypertension; cardiac disease; hepatic impairment (avoid if severe), renal impairment; breast-feeding. Contra-indications: undiagnosed vaginal bleeding, missed or incomplete abortion, severe arterial disease, mammary carcinoma, porphyria. Side-effects:  acne, urticaria, rashes, fluid  retention, weight changes, gastro-intestinal disturbances, changes in libido, breast discomfort, premenstrual symptoms, menstrual disturbances; also chloasma, depression, pyrexia, insomnia, somnolence, alopecia, hirsutism; rarely jaundice; injection site reactions; pain, diarrhoea and flatulence can occur with rectal administration. (end of BNF entry) Now I’m having regular periods, after a winter perimeno break of 6 months, I’ve noticed a lot of these progesterone side effects in the week before menstruation, including "urticaria, rashes" which I’ve never had in the past. So even our own naturally produced progesterone can have side effects – most unfair! Hope this helps Theresa

Response:

She should take some natural micronized progesterone instead (compounded) and will experience no side effects whatsoever.

Response:

ZZiiggee wrote:

She should take some natural micronized progesterone instead (compounded) and will experience no side effects whatsoever.

Adri: Can you tell us where you found this information?  Prometrium, which, to my knowledge, is the only "worthwhile" micronized natural progesterone around, most definitely can have side effects.  Were you speaking of a different drug? — "What Color are Your Dreams?" http://www.aastudios.com

Response:

On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 18:28:47 +0100, "Theresa" <there…@bigfoot.com

wrote:

(beginning of BNF entry) PROGESTERONE Contra-indications: undiagnosed vaginal bleeding, missed or incomplete abortion, severe arterial disease, mammary carcinoma, porphyria.

                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I understand that Megace, which is a progestin (i.e. it stimulates the progesterone receptor) is commonly prescribed in cases of advanced breast cancer where weight loss (cachexia) occurs.  This troubles me, especially as alternatives to Megace are available.

Response:

And on topic for this newsgroup, Megace is also used as a hot flash therapy for women who need help and cannot use estrogen. (  Dr. Love’s Hormone book p. 169 ] I’ve read studies on Provera ( alone ) used for this purpose as well. Kathryn droz…@home.com On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 23:14:42 -0400, "Eva D. Struction" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<EvaDSt…@aol.com

wrote: Robert Ames wrote in message <37a261e7.337…@news.istar.ca… On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 18:28:47 +0100, "Theresa" <there…@bigfoot.com wrote: (beginning of BNF entry) PROGESTERONE Contra-indications: undiagnosed vaginal bleeding, missed or incomplete abortion, severe arterial disease, mammary carcinoma, porphyria.                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I understand that Megace, which is a progestin (i.e. it stimulates the progesterone receptor) is commonly prescribed in cases of advanced breast cancer where weight loss (cachexia) occurs.  This troubles me, especially as alternatives to Megace are available. ———— Just to clarify what Robert wrote, Megace is an appetite stimulant, not specifically a cancer drug. Eva

Response:

Theresa wrote:

I’ve noticed a lot of these progesterone side effects in the week before menstruation, including "urticaria, rashes" which I’ve never had in the past. So even our own naturally produced progesterone can have side effects – most unfair!

What’s urticaria?  And what are you doing for the rashes? Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ

Response:

HomemakerJ wrote in message <37A28319.A8707…@interaccess.com

… Theresa wrote: I’ve noticed a lot of these progesterone side effects in the week before menstruation, including "urticaria, rashes" which I’ve never had in the past. So even our own naturally produced progesterone can have side effects – most unfair! What’s urticaria?  And what are you doing for the rashes?

Urticaria (?"hives" in America). Intensely itchy, small raised spots, can be caused by an allergic reaction. I get them, with a more generalised rash, on my neck and upper chest. After much experimentation, I find what works best is to carry a tube of Aqueus Cream and apply it whenever the itching starts. It’s soothing and stops me wanting to scratch, probably because the water in the cream evaporates and cools the skin down. Not likely to be very useful for areas that arn’t exposed to the air, or in skin folds. Aqueus Cream BP.  White soft paraffin and liquid paraffin in purified water. No perfume or colourings, very cheap to buy. Often advised for babies with dry skin/eczema. Can be used as a soap substitute as it rinses off with water. Theresa

Response:

I took Prometrium for a week and I can tell you IT HAS SIDE AFFECTS.  I experienced pain in both calves and swelling in my legs that finally subsided 2 months after I stopped taking it.  In addition, I had intense itching and face flushing.  I was also told by the pharmacy that chances of side affects were low because it was "natural".  But if you read the insert (which I did AFTER I started to experience problems) you will see that it carries many of the warning that estrogen does, and some additional ones.

Response:

On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 23:14:42 -0400, "Eva D. Struction" <EvaDSt…@aol.com

wrote: Just to clarify what Robert wrote, Megace is an appetite stimulant, not specifically a cancer drug.

Actually it was used to treat breast cancer before tamoxifen became available.  For example: ———————————————- Journal of Clinical Oncology, Vol 3, 155-160, Copyright _ 1985 by American Society of Clinical Oncology Megestrol acetate therapy for advanced breast cancer EJ Gregory, SC Cohen, DW Oines and CH Mims One hundred twenty-four patients with metastatic breast cancer were treated with 40 mg of megestrol acetate four times daily. Complete responses (CR) or partial responses (PR) were seen in 29 patients (23%). CR, PR, or stable disease (S) was seen in 80 patients (65%). The median duration of response was 22 months for CR and PR and ten months for S. A significantly higher response rate (CR + PR) was seen in estrogen-receptor-positive (ER-positive) patients (26%) and in patients who had not received prior therapy (39%). A significant relationship to response could not be established for menopausal status, progesterone- receptor (PrR) status, dominant site of disease, or prior administration of chemotherapy. Median survival was 66+ months for responders, 35 months for patients with stable disease, and 9 months for nonresponders. These differences are all statistically significant (P less than .001). Toxicity was minimal, and side effects consisted primarily of weight gain, which was seen in 18 patients (14.5%). Megestrol acetate can provide effective palliation in patients with advanced breast cancer. ———————————– Semin Oncol 1986 Dec;13(4 Suppl 4):2-8 Progestational agents in advanced breast cancer: an overview. Haller DG, Glick JH Progestational agents, such as megestrol acetate and medroxyprogesterone acetate, are effective hormonal treatments for metastatic breast cancer in postmenopausal women. Clinical trials of these agents have demonstrated that 30% to 60% of patients will experience objective tumor response, depending on pretreatment prognostic variables. Although optimal doses and schedules have not been fully defined, current studies are investigating the therapeutic effectiveness of high-dose progestins. Toxicity of these drugs is mild and generally limited to weight gain related to their anabolic activity. Progestins are active second-line agents for metastatic breast cancer in postmenopausal women. In selected patients, they appear to be equivalent to tamoxifen as first-line therapy for metastatic disease. As more patients are exposed to prolonged adjuvant tamoxifen therapy, the role of progestins as first-line hormonal therapy at the time of relapse is likely to expand.

Response:

BJEFFRIES4 wrote in message

<19990731065815.19299.00000…@ng-fd1.aol.com

… I took Prometrium for a week and I can tell you IT HAS SIDE AFFECTS.  I experienced pain in both calves and swelling in my legs that finally

subsided 2

months after I stopped taking it.  In addition, I had intense itching and

face

flushing.  I was also told by the pharmacy that chances of side affects

were

low because it was "natural".  But if you read the insert (which I did

AFTER I

started to experience problems) you will see that it carries many of the warning that estrogen does, and some additional ones.

There are few good long term studies on any progestin drug, "natural" or otherwise. No claim can be made as Ziggee just did, without qualification about the use of this drug in any form.  Additionaly, presently the use of progestin drugs come with the FDA warnings that they may have a negative impact on blood sugars .Any one with a history or predisposition for diabetes needs to know this before ever consenting to taking this drug. J

Response:

ZZiiggee wrote in message <19990730211845.20388.00000…@ng-ch1.aol.com

… She should take some natural micronized progesterone instead (compounded)

and

will experience no side effects whatsoever.

  This is a singularly irresponsible statement.  Luckily, "compounding" pharmacies are now coming under greater scrutiny by their professional association due the fact that many of them have way overstepped integrity and clinical efficacy one too many times.   ZZoggee’s statement is prima facie evidence. I am sure the FDA and the FTC will be interesting in Z’s drug claims. J

Response:

On Sat, 31 Jul 1999 18:37:38 -0400, "Eva D. Struction" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<EvaDSt…@aol.com

wrote: Robert Ames wrote in message <37a45b88.4214…@news.istar.ca… On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 23:14:42 -0400, "Eva D. Struction" <EvaDSt…@aol.com wrote: Just to clarify what Robert wrote, Megace is an appetite stimulant, not specifically a cancer drug. Actually it was used to treat breast cancer before tamoxifen became available.  For example: <snip references to studies from the 80s —————- Okay, my bad.  I only knew of the one use. Eva

FYI the same can be said for Provera and other progestins. These drugs were not developed to be used as a part of HRT, they were cancer treatrments.  They were approved and waiting when a need to counter the effects of estrogen on the uterus was finally noted in the 70’s. The progestin in HRT was an off label use until very recently. I don’t have any sources for this, I just seem to recall this from my reading so don’t bank on anything I just said.  <g

Kathryn droz…@home.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Sun, 01 Aug 1999 06:47:35 GMT, droz…@home.com (Kathryn) wrote:

On Sat, 31 Jul 1999 18:37:38 -0400, "Eva D. Struction" <EvaDSt…@aol.com wrote: Robert Ames wrote in message <37a45b88.4214…@news.istar.ca… On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 23:14:42 -0400, "Eva D. Struction" <EvaDSt…@aol.com wrote: Just to clarify what Robert wrote, Megace is an appetite stimulant, not specifically a cancer drug. Actually it was used to treat breast cancer before tamoxifen became available.  For example: <snip references to studies from the 80s —————- Okay, my bad.  I only knew of the one use. Eva FYI the same can be said for Provera and other progestins. These drugs were not developed to be used as a part of HRT, they were cancer treatrments.  They were approved and waiting when a need to counter the effects of estrogen on the uterus was finally noted in the 70’s. The progestin in HRT was an off label use until very recently.

Is it now an approved use, Kathryn? I don’t think it is in the US.

I don’t have any sources for this, I just seem to recall this from my reading so don’t bank on anything I just said.  <g Kathryn droz…@home.com

In the 60’s and early 70’s provera was casually handed out as a pregnancy test – take it for a few days, stop, and if your period didn’t start you were probably pregnant. Upjohn must have been overjoyed when they found it could supposedly be used to counteract the carcinogenic effects of estrogen on the endometrium. Until then this was a drug whose time had pretty much passed. It’s safety for long term use has never been shown. Terri

Response:

Joan Livingston <joan.livingst…@gte.net

wrote in message

news:pl1o3.317$m95.13676@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Marcie E Hascall wrote in message <01bed98a$afcb40c0$7781fcd1@merlincl… . This is just my story but I swear by the progesterone.  If it helps

prevent

cancer thats good.   If it only "helps" to prevent cancers caused by taking estrogen drugs in the first place, then this is not so good. And there is not much solid evidence about this putative estrogen-induced cancer preventive use of

this

drug. I would not want this drug to ever get the reputation of being a :cancer-preventive drug. There is no proof to support this statement,

other

than it appears to reduce the estrogen drug-induced cancers of the endometrium.

Also, aren’t there some types of cancer, particularly breast cancer,  that are "fed" by progesterone? Kalli

Response:

Eva D. Struction <EvaDSt…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:7ntpn0$mk$1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Robert Ames wrote in message <37a261e7.337…@news.istar.ca… On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 18:28:47 +0100, "Theresa" <there…@bigfoot.com wrote: (beginning of BNF entry) PROGESTERONE Contra-indications: undiagnosed vaginal bleeding, missed or incomplete abortion, severe arterial disease, mammary carcinoma, porphyria.                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I understand that Megace, which is a progestin (i.e. it stimulates the progesterone receptor) is commonly prescribed in cases of advanced breast cancer where weight loss (cachexia) occurs.  This troubles me, especially as alternatives to Megace are available. ———— Just to clarify what Robert wrote, Megace is an appetite stimulant, not specifically a cancer drug. Eva

Also that there is more than one kind of breast cancer.  Some have estrogen receptors and some have progesterone receptors.  The type determines what kind of treatment. Kalli – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Amber wrote in message <379fe646.4264…@news.concentric.net

… Hello alt.support.menopause Readers, I am hoping someone here will be able to help me, actually my Mom. She is 43 and is starting to have menopause. Her Doctor told her to take Estrogen and Progesterone, which she started but a few weeks later they called back and said that her Estrogen levels were not low enough to justify taking Estrogen pills. But they said to keep taking the Progesterone. Since she started taking the Progesterone alone, she has been getting panic attacks and feeling an increased sensitivity to her senses ( when the phone rings it makes her jump, sunshine hurts her eyes, super-human smelling).

I’ve not been able to find any

information on the side effects of taking Progesterone. Everything says to take to reduce chances of cancer.

 The cancer it hopes to prevent is the cancer that is caused by taking the estrogen drug in the first place. There is no inherent cancer prevention benefit from progesterone drugs, they are merely an attempt to prevent the first drug from doing its well known damage to the uterus.  Please see if you can get your mother to check out this newsgroup’s volunteer websites that will help you and her to get some good information about menopause and the drugs that are often prescribed for women at this time. You can find one at" www.oxford.net/~tishy/beyond.html   Also a good gift for your mother right now is the book "Dr Susan Love’s Hormone Book: Making Informed Choices About Menopause. It will help answer a lot of questions about menopause and drugs. What you are describing about the use of a progesterone drug has often been reported by other women. Also it is important to report all drug side effects to the FDA at their website in their "Medwatch" section.  www.fda.org   Your mother is lucky you have started her on a good educational path about menopause and these drugs. Best wishes, J  If anyone knows about the – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

side effects or where I can get some information about it please post or email to amber_and_k…@excite.com.

Response:

I am 44 and have been suffering some really bad symptoms of menopause.  I read and researched and it seemed to me that I was suffering the most from a reduced amount of progesterone due to perimenopause.  We get alot of estrogen from outside sources and a great deal from stress. I am using progesterone that comes in a vial for injection that they use for pregnant women at risk of aborting. I use it on my skin same as the progesterone creams they sell but those did not work for me as there is not enough or adequate progesterone in them. If you are taking progesterone tablets you are getting alot of progesterone at one time.  It is hard on your liver as well. Your symptoms sound like the enhanced hearing and smelling I had during pregancy. Progesterone does have side effects but I have found a tremendous relief by using it.  I ran out when in Costa Rica because no one knew what I was asking for and my symptoms rapidly got worse.  I found some more and went back on it and had some stomach disturbances until it settled in.  I was using a stronger version. You may find lower dosages at intervals to be more comfortable and effective. This is just my story but I swear by the progesterone.  If it helps prevent cancer thats good.  I use it because it makes me feel alot better. The progesterone I described to you is not available over the counter in the US but a pharmacist might be able to help you come up with a suitable version.  There is a pharmacist on the newgroup from a few days ago who would probably help you online. Good Luck Marcie Amber <NOSPAMamber_and_k…@excite.com

wrote in article

<379fe646.4264…@news.concentric.net

…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hello alt.support.menopause Readers, I am hoping someone here will be able to help me, actually my Mom. She is 43 and is starting to have menopause. Her Doctor told her to take Estrogen and Progesterone, which she started but a few weeks later they called back and said that her Estrogen levels were not low enough to justify taking Estrogen pills. But they said to keep taking the Progesterone. Since she started taking the Progesterone alone, she has been getting panic attacks and feeling an increased sensitivity to her senses ( when the phone rings it makes her jump, sunshine hurts her eyes, super-human smelling). I’ve not been able to find any information on the side effects of taking Progesterone. Everything says to take to reduce chances of cancer. If anyone knows about the side effects or where I can get some information about it please post or email to amber_and_k…@excite.com.

Response:

Marcie E Hascall wrote in message <01bed98a$afcb40c0$7781fcd1@merlincl

… . This is just my story but I swear by the progesterone.  If it helps prevent cancer thats good.

  If it only "helps" to prevent cancers caused by taking estrogen drugs in the first place, then this is not so good. And there is not much solid evidence about this putative estrogen-induced cancer preventive use of this drug. I would not want this drug to ever get the reputation of being a :cancer-preventive drug. There is no proof to support this statement, other than it appears to reduce the estrogen drug-induced cancers of the endometrium.      I believe even the FDA drug warning label hedges this issue too. The 1996 language I have says: Concurent progestin therapy may offset this risk (uterine cancer risk) but the overall health impact in post menopausal women in not known.  (See Precautions: The choice of progestin, its dose, and its regimen…will require further study before they are clarified.   Most women have such bad reactions to taking a progesterone drug to counter the cancer causing efffects of estrogen drugs, that they do not stay on the drug combinations long enough to be of prime value for studying its real uterine cancer preventive effects.   There is an interesting drug experiment now going on that uses this putative cancer "protection"benefit of progesterone drugs on a quarterly basis when using estrogen drugs, rather than the daily or monthy uses of this drug as in the HRT combinations in the past. Time alone will tell if this current drug experiment works or not. It took about 7-10 years before the uterine cancer cases started showing up to raise the awareness about the dangers of unopposed estrogen drug use.      Like all hormone drugs at this state of our knowledge about them, they are hit and miss drug experiments. YMMV. And be careful,. because what you perceive on the surface may not indicate what is going on below. J  I use it because it makes me feel alot better. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

The progesterone I described to you is not available over the counter in the US but a pharmacist might be able to help you come up with a suitable version.  There is a pharmacist on the newgroup from a few days ago who would probably help you online. Good Luck Marcie Amber <NOSPAMamber_and_k…@excite.com wrote in article <379fe646.4264…@news.concentric.net… Hello alt.support.menopause Readers, I am hoping someone here will be able to help me, actually my Mom. She is 43 and is starting to have menopause. Her Doctor told her to take Estrogen and Progesterone, which she started but a few weeks later they called back and said that her Estrogen levels were not low enough to justify taking Estrogen pills. But they said to keep taking the Progesterone. Since she started taking the Progesterone alone, she has been getting panic attacks and feeling an increased sensitivity to her senses ( when the phone rings it makes her jump, sunshine hurts her eyes, super-human smelling). I’ve not been able to find any information on the side effects of taking Progesterone. Everything says to take to reduce chances of cancer. If anyone knows about the side effects or where I can get some information about it please post or email to amber_and_k…@excite.com.

Response:

Marcie E Hascall wrote in message <01bed98a$afcb40c0$7781fcd1@merlincl

… I am 44 and have been suffering some really bad symptoms of menopause.  I read and researched and it seemed to me that I was suffering the most from a reduced amount of progesterone due to perimenopause.  We get alot of estrogen from outside sources and a great deal from stress. I am using progesterone that comes in a vial for injection that they use for pregnant women at risk of aborting. I use it on my skin same as the progesterone creams they sell but those did not work for me as there is not enough or adequate progesterone in them.

I find this very worrying, be careful. The injectable progesterone preparation is meant to be given by *deep* IM injection. This suggests that it could be irritating or damaging to the skin or superficial tissues. Also there’s no way of knowing how much you’re actually absorbing.  You could be "overdosing" (or you may not be getting any at all) If you decide to stop using it, and your bad symptoms of menopause come back, you could try posting the details to this NG. There’s a wealth of perimeno experience here  and whatever you’ve got someone else is bound to have had it worse (and perhaps found a solution, or a way of "getting through").

This is just my story but I swear by the progesterone.  If it helps prevent cancer thats good.

I’ve never heard of progesterone, used on its own, having anti-cancer effects. The fact that breast cancer is a *definite* contra-indication for progesterone suggests that it may even promote tumour growth IMHO. And, although research into progesterone is scarce, it has been found to play a role in the growth of meningioma’s (non-malignant brain tumours). Theresa

Response:

Theresa <there…@bigfoot.com

wrote in article

<7nqdfe$c6…@larch.nationwideisp.net

… I find this very worrying, be careful. The injectable progesterone preparation is meant to be given by *deep* IM injection. This suggests

that

it could be irritating or damaging to the skin or superficial tissues. Also there’s no way of knowing how much you’re actually absorbing.  You could be "overdosing" (or you may not be getting any at all)

     Actually I would love another form of progesterone to use that would be absorbable through the skin or even a really really slow time release thing.   I do not know of anything available.       I know that I use about 400 mg a month.  I apply it to the very thin skin of both wrists as many times a day as I think about it.  So it is spread pretty thin.  I have never experienced a skin reaction to it.   As for overdosing I would have to really be wigged out and drink it or something.   And I can certainly tell when I’m not getting any at all.

If you decide to stop using it, and your bad symptoms of menopause come back, you could try posting the details to this NG. There’s a wealth of perimeno experience here  and whatever you’ve got someone else is bound

to

have had it worse (and perhaps found a solution, or a way of "getting through").

   My symptoms had become unbearable or I’d have never put a hormone into my body.  I think the effects of my symptoms are much more a contribution to the onset of cancer than the small amounts of progesterone I take to replace what my body is producing less of.

This is just my story but I swear by the progesterone.  If it helps

prevent

cancer thats good.

     I would love to hear more on your statement that breast cancer is a "definite"…..      Breast cancer is a very major concern for me, all of us I guess. Your input is appreciated.  I have very little knowledge of the source and type of progesterone I am using. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I’ve never heard of progesterone, used on its own, having anti-cancer effects. The fact that breast cancer is a *definite* contra-indication for progesterone suggests that it may even promote tumour growth IMHO. And, although research into progesterone is scarce, it has been found to play

a

role in the growth of meningioma’s (non-malignant brain tumours). Theresa

Response:

Amber writes, re her mother:

She is 43 and is starting to have menopause. Her Doctor told her to take Estrogen and Progesterone, which she started but a few weeks later they called back and said that her Estrogen levels were not low enough to justify taking Estrogen pills. But they said to keep taking the Progesterone. Since she started taking the Progesterone alone, she has been getting panic attacks and feeling an increased sensitivity to her senses ( when the phone rings it makes her jump, sunshine hurts her eyes, super-human smelling). I’ve not been able to find any information on the side effects of taking Progesterone. Everything says to take to reduce chances of cancer. If anyone knows about the side effects or where I can get some information about it please post or email to amber_and_k…@excite.com.

Hello, Amber, and welcome to alt.support.menopause on behalf of your mother. Why does her doctor want her to take progesterone, anyhow? It’s usually prescribed along with estrogen to safeguard the uterus from the cancers that are more likely to flourish in an estrogen-rich environment. It’s also prescribed to help with heavy bleeding. Some women don’t tolerate progesterone at all well. One of the regular posters to this newsgroup maintains a web site that includes some real progesterone horror stories. Those hormone tests, by the way, aren’t at all foolproof. Our hormone levels change from day to day, sometimes from hour to hour, so a hormone test is nothing more than a "snapshot" of what your mother’s hormone levels were at a particular point in time. Your mother may want to read up on menopause, now that her doctor is throwing drugs at her, so that she knows what’s happening to her and so that she can take an active role in planning her management of this midlife process. A good first book to read is Dr. Susan Love’s Hormone Book (available in bookstores just about anywhere). There is a good bit of information available online, as well. Try http://members.tripod.com/menopause/ (see the various progesterone links in the "Hormone Replacement Therapy" section as well as the general menopause resources) http://www.oxford.net/~tishy/beyond.html Regards, Laura lblanch…@aol.com http://members.aol.com/lblanch000 http://members.tripod.com/menopause/ (be sure to click the cormorant)

Response:

amber&kris wrote:

Hello alt.support.menopause Readers, I am hoping someone here will be able to help me, actually my Mom. She is 43 and is starting to have menopause. Her Doctor told her to take Estrogen and Progesterone, which she started but a few weeks later they called back and said that her Estrogen levels were not low enough to justify taking Estrogen pills. But they said to keep taking the Progesterone. Since she started taking the Progesterone alone, she has been getting panic attacks and feeling an increased sensitivity to her senses ( when the phone rings it makes her jump, sunshine hurts her eyes, super-human smelling). I’ve not been able to find any information on the side effects of taking Progesterone. Everything says to take to reduce chances of cancer. If anyone knows about the side effects or where I can get some information about it please post or email to amber_and_k…@excite.com.

amber&kris, Did the doctor’s office say how long she was to continue the progesterone.  I am thinking that they might want her to continue it for a while beyond the estrogen if they think she should not have been taking the estrogen.  This would be to make sure she shed any build up of the endometrium.  I have read that progesterone can be pretty nasty stuff.  I have also read that taking it at night seems to lessen some of the side effects.  Also apparently some women experience fewer side effects with Prometrium than with a progestin such as Provera. Others will be along to ask more questions and provide some answers.  You might find some answers (at least some resources) at http://members.tripod.com/menopause. Many women have tried HRT and decided it just wasn’t worth it.  Others have decided that despite the risks/problems it is the right thing for them (at least at this time).  Was your mom experiencing a lot of problems? Again welcome. Wendy hypo…@aol.com

Response:

Hello alt.support.menopause Readers, I am hoping someone here will be able to help me, actually my Mom. She is 43 and is starting to have menopause. Her Doctor told her to take Estrogen and Progesterone, which she started but a few weeks later they called back and said that her Estrogen levels were not low enough to justify taking Estrogen pills. But they said to keep taking the Progesterone. Since she started taking the Progesterone alone, she has been getting panic attacks and feeling an increased sensitivity to her senses ( when the phone rings it makes her jump, sunshine hurts her eyes, super-human smelling). I’ve not been able to find any information on the side effects of taking Progesterone. Everything says to take to reduce chances of cancer. If anyone knows about the side effects or where I can get some information about it please post or email to amber_and_k…@excite.com.

Response:

Question:

On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:48:25 GMT, "Joan Livingston" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<joan.livingst…@gte.net

wrote: Oonarose wrote in message <19990719144031.23210.00000…@ng-fx1.aol.com… Oonarose wrote in message <19990719132637.23208.00000…@ng-fx1.aol.com… J wrote about prisoners who study law:  Yes, this is true in the US, although one has do it in a disciplined way with the direction of a practicing attoney. More likely, they take correspondence courses. One studies law  primarily by reading text. The bar exam in California is known to be one of the toughest in the US, along with Illinois and NY. It is not unusual to have over 50% fail the first time. The year I took it (and passed), only 48% of the first time takers passed. It was one of the lowest on record. It is a three day exam. I’m confused by the segue here from prisoners who study law to your distinction as having passed the tough California bar. Did you complete your studies at Folsom, or what? Then J wrote:    Why don’t you guess?  Without reading the full context of the preceding conversation, perhaps you are asking for an internal logic that was not intended. BTW: a prisoner who gets legal training may represent him/herself in pro per and does not need to pass a bar exam to be licensed to represent other clients.  Or his/her legal training may help to present his case if he/she does have legal representation, court appointed or not. A current bane of the legal system are all the "frivilous" law suits coming out of prison claiming not having ice cream is cruel and unusual punishment prohibited by the constitution. Diana writes: So then as far as your passing the tough California bar is concerned, self-congratuations are in order.  I am proud of passing the California Bar Exam on the first try on one of the overall  lowest pass rates they had to that date. J

Pride in one’s own *actual* accomplishments is not self-congratulatory. It merely reflects a healthy sense of self worth -real self esteem as opposed to what passes for it our culture today. Terri

Response:

I figured this was your paltry "evidence." Sorry, PJ your -version- of my post does not cut it. Look it  up. J

the only thing that is paultry is your life.  Try to get one so you wont be so argumentative.  You are not a happy fullfulled woman. PJ

Response:

PJ12346569 wrote:

I figured this was your paltry "evidence." Sorry, PJ your -version- of my post does not cut it. Look it  up. J the only thing that is paultry is your life.  Try to get one so you wont be so argumentative.  You are not a happy fullfulled woman.

Adri: One would think with your happy, happy life, you would find better things to do than slam Joan, post, after post, after post after post. If I applied your own logic to your own posts, I might assume the same thing of your life.

PJ

— "What Color are Your Dreams?" http://www.aastudios.com

Response:

Oonarose wrote in message <19990719150635.20669.00000…@ng-cf1.aol.com

… Joan, As I said before, self-congratulations are in order. I’m sure it was a difficult journey for you, but not more for than many of us in different professions. Perhaps we should all post our academic and otherwise accomplishments. Diana

People often do, and they get the praise and congratulations they merit. We have had many proud moments shared on this newsgroup. J

Response:

Could you find that exact post where someone "with a history of severe osteoporosis was told she does not need hrt"? PJ will you share it with this group after you find it?

its your post…you look it up. PJ

Response:

PJ12346569 wrote in message

<19990719191158.06026.00000…@ng-ft1.aol.com

… Could you find that exact post where someone "with a history of severe osteoporosis was told she does not need hrt"? PJ will you share it with

this

group after you find it? its your post…you look it up. PJ

  I figured this was your paltry "evidence." Sorry, PJ your -version- of my post does not cut it. Look it  up. J

Response:

Joan, As I said before, self-congratulations are in order. I’m sure it was a difficult journey for you, but not more for than many of us in different professions. Perhaps we should all post our academic and otherwise accomplishments. Diana

Response:

Anne: I can’t believe you wrote that message.

And if you get a second

opinion, how can you trust that doctor anymore than the first one?< First of all, most insurance companies  require second  opinions about the treatment of serious conditions.  While one doctor may have her way of approaching a problem another doctor will have another way.  It is up to the patient to decide what is best for them.  Patients are  not little children who accept without question opinions of others.  They are adultswho havethe capacity to gather information andmake informed decisions.Sorry but the way you’re talking it’s as  if you think people haven’t got the capacity to understand their own bodies or anything "medical" and come to  informed conclusions.  That’s ludicrous.

I guess what I am saying is that with all the medical knowledge out

there why would any intelligent person in our society today deny themselves medical advice?< Yes there is nothing wrong with getting advice.  But your post seems  to read as if a patient MUST follow a doctors advice simply because you feel all doctors know more than patients which is just plain stupid.  You have to realize not every doctor gives correct advice to his or her patient and this is why we as medical consumers much be knowledgeable. Most doctors are only in their chosen profession to make money and they just prescribe what the detail people from the pharmaceutical companies sell them on. Get real.  ARe you a doctor’s WIFE or  NURSE whos bitter because they aren’t doctors themselves?  Maybe that was a little cruel but what you said is just outlandish and just plain bad advice to post. Knoweledge is power so go out and get yourself some instead of telling  others what they should do.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Oonarose wrote in message <19990719144031.23210.00000…@ng-fx1.aol.com

… Oonarose wrote in message <19990719132637.23208.00000…@ng-fx1.aol.com… J wrote about prisoners who study law:  Yes, this is true in the US, although one has do it in a disciplined way with the direction of a practicing attoney. More likely, they take correspondence courses. One studies law  primarily by reading text. The

bar

exam in California is known to be one of the toughest in the US, along

with

Illinois and NY. It is not unusual to have over 50% fail the first time. The year I took it (and passed), only 48% of the first time takers passed. It was one of the lowest on record. It is a three day exam. I’m confused by the segue here from prisoners who study law to your distinction as having passed the tough California bar. Did you complete your studies

at

Folsom, or what? Then J wrote:    Why don’t you guess?  Without reading the full context of the preceding conversation, perhaps you are asking for an internal logic that was not intended. BTW: a prisoner who gets legal training may represent him/herself in pro per and does not need to pass a bar exam to be licensed to represent other clients.  Or his/her legal training may help to present his case if he/she does

have

legal representation, court appointed or not. A current bane of the legal system are all the "frivilous" law suits coming out of prison claiming not having ice cream is cruel and unusual punishment prohibited by the constitution. Diana writes: So then as far as your passing the tough California bar is concerned, self-congratuations are in order.

  I am proud of passing the California Bar Exam on the first try on one of the overall  lowest pass rates they had to that date. J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Signed, Diana, who is taking Percocet or Percodan or something like that after

having a

particularly nasty, puss-filled, inflamed cyst incised. The cyst was

located at

the intersection of my thigh and my pelvic region. This may be making my posting style more hostile. Now I’m going to take a nap.

Response:

RVKEANE wrote in message <19990719144453.07469.00000…@ng-fu1.aol.com

… Anne: I can’t believe you wrote that message. And if you get a second opinion, how can you trust that doctor anymore than the first one?< First of all, most insurance companies  require second  opinions about the treatment of serious conditions.  While one doctor may have her way of approaching a problem another doctor will have another way.

   The Darmouth survey of medical practices shows without a doubt there is a high degree of regionalism in "medical" decision making.  Graduates from different schools  will treat conditions in highly varying ways. This is what is driving this current new concept of "evidenced based medicine." What facts support medical decision making is the issue, not what -traditions- support medical decision making.   UCLA dental school is also getting involved in this  and found there were approximately 14 different ways of making  a judgment call on "pulp exposure" operating right there on the dental clinic floor among the instructors and teaching assistants.   My informal conclusion after 32 years in dentistry working on two continents and several regions of the US, is  that "80% of what ever philosophy works most of the time, and 20% of it doesn’t work most of the time." The trick is to know what can be reasonably treated in the 80% overlap, and to excercise more critical judgement in the more variable 20% of the excpetions.  J J   It is up to the – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

patient to decide what is best for them.  Patients are  not little children

who

accept without question opinions of others.  They are adultswho havethe capacity to gather information andmake informed decisions.Sorry but the way you’re talking it’s as  if you think people haven’t got the capacity to understand their own bodies or anything "medical" and come to  informed conclusions.  That’s ludicrous. I guess what I am saying is that with all the medical knowledge out there why would any intelligent person in our society today deny themselves medical advice?< Yes there is nothing wrong with getting advice.  But your post seems  to

read

as if a patient MUST follow a doctors advice simply because you feel all doctors know more than patients which is just plain stupid.  You have to realize not every doctor gives correct advice to his or her patient and

this is

why we as medical consumers much be knowledgeable. Most doctors are only in their chosen profession to make money and they

just

prescribe what the detail people from the pharmaceutical companies sell

them

on. Get real.  ARe you a doctor’s WIFE or  NURSE whos bitter because they

aren’t

doctors themselves?  Maybe that was a little cruel but what you said is

just

outlandish and just plain bad advice to post. Knoweledge is power so go out and get yourself some instead of telling

others

what they should do.

Response:

In article <19990718081639.07108.00002…@ng-fp1.aol.com

,

PJ12346569 <pj12346…@aol.com

wrote: In the mystical world of some present posters, doctors do not exist. For what ever reasons the posters distrust doctors, they do not seek their advice. They also seem to want readers to think that way too.  I wonder how many women walk away from here not taking hrt when maybe they need it or have listened to other medical advise and have had problems.

I honestly think both of you are painting the newsgroup with an unfairly broad brush. It’s certainly true that  one of the common themes here is "educate yourself so you can make the best possible decisions about your own health care." But it’s equally true that even the posters you seem to view as "anti-doctor" *often* suggest seeking competent medical advice when one is faced with extreme or even unusual symptoms. Read the responses to newcomers. Even when we are assuring women that their experiences sound to us like the normal signs of perimenopause, many – I daresay most – of us generally add, "But see your doctor to make sure it’s not something more serious." And many veteran posters here are quick to add that they are *not* medical professionals, so their (our) advice should be taken for what it is – suggestions from other women who are going through the same process. I have a great doctor. But menopausal women aren’t a major part of her practice.  When she recommended that I start taking hormones, I asked her why. Her response was simple and honest: Because that’s the "standard treatment"  for women approaching meno. When I presented her with good evidence based on my own study of the HRT question, she read it, did some further reading on her own and agreed that the "standard" was not necessarily as simple and safe as she’d presumed, and helped me come up with some other, non-drug strategies for coping with the signs that were bothering me. At the same time, she performed a complete physical to make sure there was nothing pathological going on. To my mind, this is a good doctor-patient relationship. Instead of being the passive, obedient recipient of her wisdom, I am an active partner in my own health care. I learn things from my doctor, but she also learns things from me – and she is willing to change her practices based on new or more complete information than what she learned in medical school. Doctors aren’t gods. Their medical degrees don’t confer infallibility on them. Even the best of them doesn’t know everything, and *all* of them need to stay on top of the ever-changing realm of medical information. There’s nothing wrong with asking them questions or even pointing out where their knowledge may not be current. -Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

In article <19990718123459.03135.00002…@ng-bk1.aol.com

,

PJ12346569 <pj12346…@aol.com

wrote: Nobody here gives prescriptive medical advice. Well, actually, you come as near as damnit with your imperative ‘go and have an orga*m’. I would hardly think telling someone to have an orgasm to feel better is in the same catagory as telling a woman who may have a history of severe osteoporisis, that she does not need hrt.  

It may, however, be incredibly insensitive to women whose ability to have orgasms is impaired by, for instance, surgery or drugs. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

On 18 Jul 1999 18:51:51 GMT, kig…@ucs.orst.edu (Pat Kight) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

In article <19990718081639.07108.00002…@ng-fp1.aol.com, PJ12346569 <pj12346…@aol.com wrote: In the mystical world of some present posters, doctors do not exist. For what ever reasons the posters distrust doctors, they do not seek their advice. They also seem to want readers to think that way too.  I wonder how many women walk away from here not taking hrt when maybe they need it or have listened to other medical advise and have had problems. I honestly think both of you are painting the newsgroup with an unfairly broad brush. It’s certainly true that  one of the common themes here is "educate yourself so you can make the best possible decisions about your own health care." But it’s equally true that even the posters you seem to view as "anti-doctor" *often* suggest seeking competent medical advice when one is faced with extreme or even unusual symptoms. Read the responses to newcomers. Even when we are assuring women that their experiences sound to us like the normal signs of perimenopause, many – I daresay most – of us generally add, "But see your doctor to make sure it’s not something more serious." And many veteran posters here are quick to add that they are *not* medical professionals, so their (our) advice should be taken for what it is – suggestions from other women who are going through the same process.

I think almost everyone on this group suggests that one seek medical attention *before* assuming that "it’s just another aspect of menopause." That’s a reasonable standard. But I agree wholeheartedly with Pat here – and Tishy – educate yourself so you are able to utilize your doctor visit well.  Don’t assume that your doctor knows things he/she doesn’t know and don’t assume that his/her advice is necessarily the best thing for you. Question and do your own research and make your own decision. If it is important to you to have an on-going relationship with a doctor then let him/her know what you’re doing or not doing. Terri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I have a great doctor. But menopausal women aren’t a major part of her practice.  When she recommended that I start taking hormones, I asked her why. Her response was simple and honest: Because that’s the "standard treatment"  for women approaching meno. When I presented her with good evidence based on my own study of the HRT question, she read it, did some further reading on her own and agreed that the "standard" was not necessarily as simple and safe as she’d presumed, and helped me come up with some other, non-drug strategies for coping with the signs that were bothering me. At the same time, she performed a complete physical to make sure there was nothing pathological going on. To my mind, this is a good doctor-patient relationship. Instead of being the passive, obedient recipient of her wisdom, I am an active partner in my own health care. I learn things from my doctor, but she also learns things from me – and she is willing to change her practices based on new or more complete information than what she learned in medical school. Doctors aren’t gods. Their medical degrees don’t confer infallibility on them. Even the best of them doesn’t know everything, and *all* of them need to stay on top of the ever-changing realm of medical information. There’s nothing wrong with asking them questions or even pointing out where their knowledge may not be current. -Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

PJ12346569 wrote in message

<19990718123459.03135.00002…@ng-bk1.aol.com

… I would hardly think telling someone to have an orgasm to feel better is in

the

same catagory as telling a woman who may have a history of severe

osteoporisis,

that she does not need hrt. PJ

  Could you find that exact post where someone "with a history of severe osteoporosis was told she does not need hrt"? PJ will you share it with this group after you find it?       I think you are selling this group short with your comment The responses made on this newsgroup are  more likely than not both wise and cautionary and no one attempts to circumvent the importance of a doctor/patient relationship when dealing with prescription drugs. If some one mistates an issue on this newsgroup, it goes through a pretty rigorous feedback process on this open forum. And that is a good, and often cumbersome process, to get all the dimensions of a topic explored.       Again, PJ, be careful about reading -into- posts, instead of just reading them when you jump to your conclusions about them. But I will take back that statement if you can show me the post where it was said that " a woman with a history of severe osteoporosis was told she does not need hrt." In fact, this is one of the times the FDA drug warning label supports the use of HRT. J

Response:

J wrote about prisoners who study law:   Yes, this is true in the US, although one has do it in a disciplined way with the direction of a practicing attoney. More likely, they take correspondence courses. One studies law  primarily by reading text. The bar exam in California is known to be one of the toughest in the US, along with Illinois and NY. It is not unusual to have over 50% fail the first time. The year I took it (and passed), only 48% of the first time takers passed. It was one of the lowest on record. It is a three day exam.

I’m confused by the segue here from prisoners who study law to your distinction as having passed the tough California bar. Did you complete your studies at Folsom, or what? Diana

Response:

Oonarose wrote in message <19990719132637.23208.00000…@ng-fx1.aol.com

… J wrote about prisoners who study law:  Yes, this is true in the US, although one has do it in a disciplined way with the direction of a practicing attoney. More likely, they take correspondence courses. One studies law  primarily by reading text. The bar exam in California is known to be one of the toughest in the US, along with Illinois and NY. It is not unusual to have over 50% fail the first time. The year I took it (and passed), only 48% of the first time takers passed. It was one of the lowest on record. It is a three day exam. I’m confused by the segue here from prisoners who study law to your

distinction

as having passed the tough California bar. Did you complete your studies at Folsom, or what? Diana

    Why don’t you guess?  Without reading the full context of the preceding conversation, perhaps you are asking for an internal logic that was not intended. BTW: a prisoner who gets legal training may represent him/herself in pro per and does not need to pass a bar exam to be licensed to represent other clients.   Or his/her legal training may help to present his case if he/she does have legal representation, court appointed or not. A current bane of the legal system are all the "frivilous" law suits coming out of prison claiming not having ice cream is cruel and unusual punishment prohibited by the constitution. J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Oonarose wrote in message <19990719132637.23208.00000…@ng-fx1.aol.com

… J wrote about prisoners who study law:  Yes, this is true in the US, although one has do it in a disciplined way with the direction of a practicing attoney. More likely, they take correspondence courses. One studies law  primarily by reading text. The bar exam in California is known to be one of the toughest in the US, along with Illinois and NY. It is not unusual to have over 50% fail the first time. The year I took it (and passed), only 48% of the first time takers passed. It was one of the lowest on record. It is a three day exam. I’m confused by the segue here from prisoners who study law to your

distinction

as having passed the tough California bar. Did you complete your studies at Folsom, or what?

Then J wrote:

    Why don’t you guess?  Without reading the full context of the preceding conversation, perhaps you are asking for an internal logic that was not intended. BTW: a prisoner who gets legal training may represent him/herself in pro per and does not need to pass a bar exam to be licensed to represent other clients.   Or his/her legal training may help to present his case if he/she does have legal representation, court appointed or not. A current bane of the legal system are all the "frivilous" law suits coming out of prison claiming not having ice cream is cruel and unusual punishment prohibited by the constitution.

Diana writes:

So then as far as your passing the tough California bar is concerned, self-congratuations are in order. Signed, Diana, who is taking Percocet or Percodan or something like that after having a particularly nasty, puss-filled, inflamed cyst incised. The cyst was located at the intersection of my thigh and my pelvic region. This may be making my posting style more hostile. Now I’m going to take a nap.

Response:

J…@lotos-land.demon.co.uk wrote in message

<37acfa40.15778…@news.demon.co.uk

… willy-nilly. And BTW, nobody *needs* HRT. It isn’t like insulin. Even for a woman without ovaries, it isn’t life or death but maybe improved quality of life. Furthermore, a person in prison who studies law, takes and passes exams, can become a lawyer. They can in the UK, at least. Joanna

  Yes, this is true in the US, although one has do it in a disciplined way with the direction of a practicing attoney. More likely, they take correspondence courses. One studies law  primarily by reading text. The bar exam in California is known to be one of the toughest in the US, along with Illinois and NY. It is not unusual to have over 50% fail the first time. The year I took it (and passed), only 48% of the first time takers passed. It was one of the lowest on record. It is a three day exam. J J

Response:

Nobody here gives prescriptive medical advice. Well, actually, you come as near as damnit with your imperative ‘go and have an orga*m’.

I would hardly think telling someone to have an orgasm to feel better is in the same catagory as telling a woman who may have a history of severe osteoporisis, that she does not need hrt.   PJ

Response:

Anee Bear <AneeB…@iname.com

wrote

<trimmed

I guess what I am saying is that with all the medical knowledge out there why would any intelligent person in our society today deny themselves medical advice?

For myself Anee, I could be called distrustful of doctors.  Not because I think that they are evil or intend anything but "good", but because they are fallible human beings … just like the rest of us.  They all have their strengths and weaknesses, areas of special interest and/or knowledge, good days and bad days, and some are very definitely better than others. In the end, the decisions come back to me.  It is my body and my life. You answered the question for me in the above paragraph ….. I do not deny myself "medical advice" …. just sometimes, on reflection, after research, and with the additional knowledge that only I can have of myself, just sometimes I decide not to take the advice given. "advice" = opinion given or offered as to action, counsel. Note the use of the word "opinion". My doctors are my advisors, they are not my gods or potentates. silver

Response:

On Sun, 18 Jul 1999 17:48:15 +0100, "silver" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<sil…@starlight.freeserve.co.uk

wrote: Anee Bear <AneeB…@iname.com wrote <trimmed I guess what I am saying is that with all the medical knowledge out there why would any intelligent person in our society today deny themselves medical advice? For myself Anee, I could be called distrustful of doctors.  Not because I think that they are evil or intend anything but "good", but because they are fallible human beings … just like the rest of us.  They all have their strengths and weaknesses, areas of special interest and/or knowledge, good days and bad days, and some are very definitely better than others. In the end, the decisions come back to me.  It is my body and my life. You answered the question for me in the above paragraph ….. I do not deny myself "medical advice" …. just sometimes, on reflection, after research, and with the additional knowledge that only I can have of myself, just sometimes I decide not to take the advice given. "advice" = opinion given or offered as to action, counsel. Note the use of the word "opinion". My doctors are my advisors, they are not my gods or potentates. silver

Exactly silver. I could turn anee’s question around. With all the information that’s out there why would any reasonably intelligent adult trust a doctor to make decisions for them? Responsible competent adults take responsibility for themselves. They don’t check their brains at the doctor’s office door and walk in totally blank. I see a doctor when I think it’s necessary(which isn’t often),  and I take the advice given when I think it’s reasonable. When it isn’t, I pay for the time I’ve taken and leave.  The relationship is a business one – money for expertise. When the expertise is wanting, I pay the money anyway (we should be able to do something about that, BTW) , but I’m not so stupid as to take the advice.  This body belongs to me and I’m responsible for it. I have no desire to turn that responsibility over to someone else. O(thers) MMV. Terri

Response:

In the mystical world of some present posters, doctors do not exist. For what ever reasons the posters distrust doctors, they do not seek their advice.

They also seem to want readers to think that way too.  I wonder how many women walk away from here not taking hrt when maybe they need it or have listened to other medical advise and have had problems.  Its like prisoners in jail who become ":lawyers".   There ar3 two kinds of people in this world…leaders and followers. there are always going to be people who will do what they read or are told my someone to do.  I hope some of the readers, or posters, or the many lurkers we do not know or hear from have taken the "medical:" advise on here literal. PJ

Response:

Laura started a good tradition by saying that any "medical advice" here should be taken with as much reliabiity as you would give to  a stranger sitting next to you on the bus. Check it all out, and listen to the full range and depth of the discussion this newsgroup provides. J PJ12346569 wrote in message

<19990718081639.07108.00002…@ng-fp1.aol.com

…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

In the mystical world of some present posters, doctors do not exist. For what ever reasons the posters distrust doctors, they do not seek their advice. They also seem to want readers to think that way too.  I wonder how many

women

walk away from here not taking hrt when maybe they need it or have listened

to

other medical advise and have had problems.  Its like prisoners in jail who become ":lawyers".   There ar3 two kinds of people in this world…leaders

and

followers. there are always going to be people who will do what they read

or

are told my someone to do.  I hope some of the readers, or posters, or the

many

lurkers we do not know or hear from have taken the "medical:" advise on

here

literal. PJ

Response: