Question:

Shell, I am deeply sorry that you have had such an awful experience with your ed. I am even more sorry that you have buried friends as a result. I have no problems with my habit. No physical, no emotional. Well, okay. I am having a hard time comprehending the whole eating *disorder* concept. I just don’t see any disorder. Sorry if I have offended any of you. I just want to know what separates my beliefs from yours. , and if I am fine, why should there have to be a problem?

because you havent hit rock bottom yet.  or anywhwere near. i had no problems with my habit when i was 12.  now i am 25 and  could shoot myself for ever starting with any of this.  at 12, i did not care that i did not have my period.  i wasnt concerned about children.  now , everytime i see sweet little innocent children aroudn me, at the mall, at the coffee shop, at church, i feel like crying.   will i ever get to hold my own baby in my arms? in the beginnning , people were concerned. as time went on, people got mad. then they left.  give it time.  your world will leave you too. it took twelve years, and now i find myself trying to extract myself from a disease which ahs become a way of life.  once, i chose it.  now i am too afraid to let it go.  and i am quite frankly looking death in the face soon if i dont let it go. in addiction, and eating disordes are very much like addictions, you use and use because you enjoy it.  hey, entertainment, recreation, screw the rest of the world.  you have your weapon and shield.  you never expect you will one day kill yourself with your own gun.   when you have lost any connection with the real world, your health starts to feel to an irreversible degree, when you are absolutely miserable, come back and ask me what the big deal is.  its a shame.  we try to warn you.   its why they have drug and alcohol abuse days at school and eating disorder preventions.  some people dont listen. poor them. they lose half their lives learning the hard way.   and then they probably literally lose the other half of their lives. shell

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romans also sentenced people to death by putting them in a pit with wild animals to be torn apart.

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Memeia – I think I admire your willingness to admit this here. There are times when I think I "enjoy" the bulimia too (like, as I am initiating a binge and know I have a couple hours to not be disturbed…), but then afterwards I realize I feel worse. And want to stop. And can’t. and on and on. Anyway – just out of curiosity, how many years have you been actively bulimic? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Fraser, yes, I wanted to stop the b/p, it was just last year. I moved to onother town, got a new job and thought "why not stop bulimia, too, as a sort of change" – I just wanted to see if I miss it when I stop it. Well, I was afraid to gain weight and ate very restricted. The result was a massive lost of weight in a short time. I became nervous, depressive and finally made it to the doctor. I had to gain weight then,- to digest really fat food. When I "increased" I felt even worse,- bloated, fat and so on. At some point of this process it happened that I vomitted accidentally, because of really greasy food. Afterwards I thought "why not go on" and experienced the whole b/p again. And… I liked it and was happy to have it back. Well, Fraser, maybe this is a kind of failure. I’m not able to eat just normal, I get horrors when I think of the time when I had to digest the things. Having the taste of it is great for me, but the digesting was disgusting. Of all the states I was in – anorectic, normal eating, bulimic – I liked the bulimic best – so I kept it and I am happy with it. It’s not that I do it the whole day through, but when I come home from work I enjoy it for two, three hours and that’s okay. During the b/p I sit at my computer, read or watch T.V., afterwards I go out, do something with my boyfriend, friends – it’s not that I would do nothing else. It’s like my favourite hobby. Maybe I have to become thirty (years) old to get wiser? Five years left… Undecided how to feel about that, Memeia P.S.: I’m sorry, Sunshell. Please don’t be angry – I might be mindless in my personal case, but I feel with you all struggling with b/p or anorexia. If people would only live from love…

– <*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*

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Troll alert!!  Troll alert!!! maybe you people should pick up a Support Group For Dummies handbook, you are pretty clueless.

Maybe, sweetheart, YOU are pretty clueless…. –Connie — "Starving the flesh wastes the spirit." –Kandis Elliot

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 You all seem to think that bulemia is this awful horrible thing and you are all struggling to free yourselves from it. Why? I just don’t understand what the problem is. I like this. I don’t ever have to watch what I eat, excersize, or worry. I just throw up after I eat. Case closed.

THEN, GET THE HECK OUT OF THIS NG, OK!!! And I used the capitals to denote ‘foaming in the mouth, chin protruding, neck muscles flexing, face-veins popping SCREAMING’ at you! You wouldn’t be posting here if you didn’t think your behavior was problematic. If this is how you’re going to ‘participate’ in this NG, take a hike! ‘Steve’

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I post here because I am curious. Friends, doctors, the media, and basically everything that I have read tells me that I have an eating disorder. I am havin a problem understanding this. I am not stupid, ignorant or *dense* as sunshell so rudely put it, I am a junior in college, double majoring in communications and criminology, and I carry a 3.96 G.P.A. If you look back at history, "Bulimia" dates back to the time of the Romans. They purged openly, publically. They had no shame, guilt, or negative feelings whatsoever. They constructed rooms called purgatories, they were establishments designated for purging after a large meal. They were eqipped with a long feather with which the person would stick down their throat. There was nothing wrong with this. It was normal, expected, and understood. Why did culture evolve? When did we suddenly decide that this practice is unacceptable? Shell, I am deeply sorry that you have had such an awful experience with your ed. I am even more sorry that you have buried friends as a result. I have no problems with my habit. No physical, no emotional. Well, okay. I am having a hard time comprehending the whole eating *disorder* concept. I just don’t see any disorder. Sorry if I have offended any of you. I just want to know what separates my beliefs from yours. , and if I am fine, why should there have to be a problem?

Just because the Romans did doesn’t it make it acceptable to me.  If you used that reasoning  for a lot fo things you’d come up short. I believe this binging and purging is a "disorder" because it is not something our bodies are meant to do. The negative feelings attached (well, what most people feel) are feelings that one isn’t supposed to feel about something as everyday as food. And I personally believe just because you have a million point g.p.a. doesn’t make you immune to fallacies in thinking. Grades only test you in one small slice of life.

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then why do you post here, if you do not want any help?

good question amy cherie.  I post here because I am curious. Friends, doctors, the media, and basically everything that I have read tells me that I have an eating disorder. I am havin a problem understanding this. I am not stupid, ignorant or *dense* as sunshell so rudely put it, I am a junior in college, double majoring in communications and criminology, and I carry a 3.96 G.P.A. If you look back at history, "Bulimia" dates back to the time of the Romans. They purged openly, publically. They had no shame, guilt, or negative feelings whatsoever. They constructed rooms called purgatories, they were establishments designated for purging after a large meal. They were eqipped with a long feather with which the person would stick down their throat. There was nothing wrong with this. It was normal, expected, and understood. Why did culture evolve? When did we suddenly decide that this practice is unacceptable? Shell, I am deeply sorry that you have had such an awful experience with your ed. I am even more sorry that you have buried friends as a result. I have no problems with my habit. No physical, no emotional. Well, okay. I am having a hard time comprehending the whole eating *disorder* concept. I just don’t see any disorder. Sorry if I have offended any of you. I just want to know what separates my beliefs from yours. , and if I am fine, why should there have to be a problem?

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oh my….      i know i should just avoid these.  i can’t believe that someone who truly feels this way would waste their time on this newsgroup… dubiously "credited" to facadechmp: Just keep on keeping on. I have been puking for years, I have no physical side effects. I have white teeth. what then I ask is the problem

i, personally find this very offensive for people that are struggling with terrible physical and emotional side effects. i just want to scream!                   -starfisher

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are you dense? like duh?  i find it very interessting that i wrote and said how my life has gone to hell because of this disease and yet it goes in one eat out the other. You all seem to think that bulemia is this awful horrible thing and you are all struggling to free yourselves from it. Why? I just don’t understand what the problem is.

its called one heart attack at the age of 17, lost family and all friends, flunked out of college due to puking too much, almost became homeless due to the money spent on it, progressive nerve disorder, esophagitis, delayed gastric emptying, a gastric system that almost never works, friends who are laying in coffins.  i could go on and on/ you are so completely dense.

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my goodness!!!!!    I am at a loss for words. My eating disorder is so violent, and I would do anything to free myself…     Facadechmp,  look yourself in the eye. Can you honestly see yourself doing that for the rest of your life?     This has to stop sometime. How will you cope when that time comes?      God Bless, help him help you see what you ar doing and saying.                                     Shannon

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then why do you post here, if you do not want any help? to say look what i can get away with and you can’t?- b/c i can guarantee you there aren’t many anorexics or bulimics that can tolerate their ed like you. i know you don’t mean to but it almost feels like you’re bragging about something very few of us can acheive- b/p without it ruining our lives. i’m not writing out of anger either.  these are only questions in my mind.   amy cherie

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amy.   I wasn’t speaking directly to you although I did use your quote to illustrate the general beliefs in this ng.  You all seem to think that bulemia is this awful horrible thing and you are all struggling to free yourselves from it. Why? I just don’t understand what the problem is. I like this. I don’t ever have to watch what I eat, excersize, or worry. I just throw up after I eat. Case closed.

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the problem is i DO have side effects, i never feel well.  it is painful and tiring.  if it wasn’ t this way, i wouldn’t want to get help.  i didn’t think i had a problem until i experienced some extreme symptoms.  everyone is different in what they can handle.  you are obviously fine.  but don’t be suprised if ten years down the road, you suddenly have a heart atteck, or get cancer or can’t have any children.  maybe it’s worse for you, b/c not only do you deny yourself you have a problem, but your body is fooling you too!  what a scary thing.  i’m sorry for you!  have a good sunday! amy cherie and so you know- i was anorexic for two years, and bulimic for about three before i started experienced these bad symptoms.  that was when i seeked out this newsgroup.

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Amy cherie wrote i just can’t believe how you can feel it’s just a normal daily routine in your life-

why not?  Puking is normal for me. Do it every day. No guilt, no pain, just able to eat what ever when ever and not have to worry about not being able to zip my jeans tomarrow.      I think that you people who are *struggling* with bulemia think too much. Don’t make such a big deal about it. You puke up food. Big deal. Don’t attach so much emotion to it and its all good.       If you think your sick, you are. If you think you have a bad habit, like smoking, biting your nails, puking up lunch, then you have a bad habit. So what, no one is perfect. Just keep on keeping on. I have been puking for years, I have no physical side effects. I have white teeth. what then I ask is the problem?

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   Memeia,,,,   If you really,  honestly LIKE what you are doing to yourself, than I don’t believe that you would seek out a site for people who suffer from eds.      Although  I cannot say for sure, I believe that there is some psychology behind your ed.  If you were not so afraid to gain weight, (and you must be, or you wouldn’t put your body throught the purging process, ) than maybe it would be different. The simple fact that gaining weight scares you so much is a sign of a deeper psychological problem.    Just my two cents.                                          Love and Concern                                              SHannon

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memeia, im not angry hon.  dont think that.  more frustrated i believe, because continuing the bulimia i dont want you to have to go through what i have. shell

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your post really upset me, and at the moment i’m not quite sure how to respond.  i just can’t believe how you can feel it’s just a normal daily routine in your life- this is not a good thing to think.  people are talking all the time how you can develop cancer from b/ping all the time.  i’ve had cancer, and high thyroid and an ed that seems as if it will never leave.  i’m not trying to compare my life to anyone else, i just don’t understand how oblivious you appear to be to the toll bulimia WILL take on your health.  BE GOOD TO YOURSELF-PLEASE!!!!!  what does your boyfriend and friends think about what you say?  have you told them? what you put off today will catch up with you another day! amy cherie

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Hi, Fraser, yes, I wanted to stop the b/p, it was just last year. I moved to onother town, got a new job and thought "why not stop bulimia, too, as a sort of change" – I just wanted to see if I miss it when I stop it. Well, I was afraid to gain weight and ate very restricted. The result was a massive lost of weight in a short time. I became nervous, depressive and finally made it to the doctor. I had to gain weight then,- to digest really fat food. When I "increased" I felt even worse,- bloated, fat and so on. At some point of this process it happened that I vomitted accidentally, because of really greasy food. Afterwards I thought "why not go on" and experienced the whole b/p again. And… I liked it and was happy to have it back. Well, Fraser, maybe this is a kind of failure. I’m not able to eat just normal, I get horrors when I think of the time when I had to digest the things. Having the taste of it is great for me, but the digesting was disgusting. Of all the states I was in – anorectic, normal eating, bulimic – I liked the bulimic best – so I kept it and I am happy with it. It’s not that I do it the whole day through, but when I come home from work I enjoy it for two, three hours and that’s okay. During the b/p I sit at my computer, read or watch T.V., afterwards I go out, do something with my boyfriend, friends – it’s not that I would do nothing else. It’s like my favourite hobby. Maybe I have to become thirty (years) old to get wiser? Five years left… Undecided how to feel about that, Memeia P.S.: I’m sorry, Sunshell. Please don’t be angry – I might be mindless in my personal case, but I feel with you all struggling with b/p or anorexia. If people would only live from love…

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You are sacrificing your current health the way people misuse credit cards. Buy not, do not consider how you will pay the debt until later!!  Sure, it is good while you lose weight and feel and appear healthy.  But the chances are more likely than not that the purging will catch up with you both physically and emotionally.  Will false teeth be worth all of these "fun" years with bulimia??  How about a heart attack?? Here is a test.  Can you stop purging???  Or do you know longer have a choice?? From someone who has been there and is there as she writes!! 11111

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Memeia? CASE CLOSED tiffany

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How can you NOT see this behavior as a disorder!  It is NOT normal for one to throw up after eating.  That is not life and I think you are in DENIAL of having a problem.  I hope you have the courage and with a 3.96 G.P.A. I know you are smart enough to know you have a problem.  Good luck before it’s to late. Buff Just 42 Day!

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you know,   Its a damn good thing that I don’t feel as if I need support., I certainly     Are you sure this is even a *support* group?  YOu people are pretty vicious. I didn’t say, or post anygthing wrong. I have and opinion, and this *support* group doesn’t seem to think that I deserve the right to voice it.

This support group is here is to support the purpose of wanting to get *well* not make us sicker.  You’re sitting here telling us that because the Romans used to puke after meals, then it’s fine and encourageable to do so. Naturally, people are not going to take to that kind of sickmaking philosophy too kindly. I can totally sympathize with rhyan, for it doesn’t seem as if she is wanted here either. You people are very clicky, maybe if my name was emily, or shell or amy cherie you people would actually give a shit as to what I have to say.

Do we have to agree with you to give a shit? RB

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If you look back at history, "Bulimia" dates back to the time of the Romans. They purged openly, publically. They had no shame, guilt, or negative feelings whatsoever.

If you look back into history, slavery was also ok, racial discrimination was law, beating wives into submission was common and accepted practice,  and no shame or guilt was associated with any of those, either. Just because it happened in "history" doesn’t mean it’s ok.  No wonder history repeats itself so often.  The same self-damaging mistakes are made over and over and over and over again. RB

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you know,   Its a damn good thing that I don’t feel as if I need support., I certainly     Are you sure this is even a *support* group?  YOu people are pretty vicious. I didn’t say, or post anygthing wrong. I have and opinion, and this *support* group doesn’t seem to think that I deserve the right to voice it. I can totally sympathize with rhyan, for it doesn’t seem as if she is wanted here either. You people are very clicky, maybe if my name was emily, or shell or amy cherie you people would actually give a shit as to what I have to say. maybe you people should pick up a Support Group For Dummies handbook, you are pretty clueless.

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romans also sentenced people to death by putting them in a pit with wild animals to be torn apart.

ROFL!  if my sense of humor was around right now, i would be laughing so hard it hurt with tears running down my face! shell

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Question:

Hi Jane,      I am not a professional, but to my knowledge, your thyroid has a lot to do with metabolism.  When one’s thyroid is low, one tends to be sluggish, depressed, gains weight.  A high thyroid is the opposite, where a person is hyperactive, burns calories quickly, jittery, etc.      I am sure you will get more better detailed information from some of the pros here. Hope this helps a little. Love always, Ashley "This is the strangest life I’ve ever known." – Jim Morrison

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Hi everyone, I just got back from the Dr. and they did lots of blood work.  They said they were checking on my thyroid because I have a lot of circulation problems and numbness.  What does your thyroid do?  What happens if is is too slow?  I am so uninformed.  Please someone tell me what is going on!! Thanks, Jane

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Question:

Forgot to add – also, I got tested on the very first day of my period, and finally tested low enough to have thyroid prescribed.  The rest of the month I test ‘borderline’. =Tamar

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Just a quickie FYI … I called the doc & her nurse said my general thyroid test came back fine.  I said "Your nurse practitioner said my thyroid ‘was absolutely enormous’, don’t you find that odd, considering I have every symptom to a tee?"  She said I’ll let you doctor review & have her call you. I received a voicemail later in the day from the nurse saying that she was calling for my doctor who was trying to catch a plane & couldn’t speak to me, & that my doctor had said not to worry, that my thyroid size was normal ‘for me’.  She said they’d test again in a year.

"Normal for you?"  Sheesh.  And if you went in with a broken leg, would they say that, because they never saw you without one, that a broken leg was ‘normal for you’? While it is true that people differ in thyroid size, your having all the other symptoms is a strong indicator.  I think they’re blowing you off, as you clearly know.   I’ve been told that hospitals/labs use as ‘normal’ the average for the area they are in, and if everyone in a given area is sub-normal on a given test, then ‘normal’ is actually sub-normal.  When most people in a given area are low-thyroid, they will claim you are ‘normal’ even when you are subn-normal, just because you match _their_ norm.  (By this reasoning, the people with goiters in mountainous regions are ‘normal’ – technically, that’s what normal means, but it doesn’t mean they’re healthy.) So anyway, the implication is that you have to find a place where everyone has high thyroid readings, and have your tests done there.  Easier said than done. Oh well, pursuing other local doctors.  Deb, mentioned a Dr. Vidarte nearby so, that maybe an interim doctor until, maybe Atlanta down the road. Also, I’ve received emails noting I should get specialized thyroid tests as the general test is not sufficient.  Wondering if my extended use of Lupron (& the other medical gems!) could be involved … hmmmm.

Good luck with the new doctor. =Tamar

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Evening ladies & gents … since no responses, just wondering if no one out

there has any related thyroid problems.< I think I missed this thread..sorry…anyway, I don’t know if this is what you are looking for, but I have a growth on my thyroid.  Does that count? Hugs, Heather http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/9783/ also see http://www.thriveonline.com/health/endo/index.html

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 Just a quickie FYI … I called the doc & her nurse said my general thyroid test came back fine.  I said "Your nurse practitioner said my thyroid ‘was absolutely enormous’, don’t you find that odd, considering I have every symptom to a tee?"  She said I’ll let you doctor review & have her call you. I received a voicemail later in the day from the nurse saying that she was calling for my doctor who was trying to catch a plane & couldn’t speak to me, & that my doctor had said not to worry, that my thyroid size was normal ‘for me’.  She said they’d test again in a year. So, I go in to the doctor b/c clearly my pain level went over the top, I *know* something happened to cause my bleeding to suddenly stop mid period (that just doesn’t happen to me), I have all the symptoms of a malfunctioning thyroid, I’m told the thyroid is enormous, they see growths on my tubes, ovaries, etc in the ultrasound  & this is normal ‘for me’ … so, nothing’s done, nothing’s addressed.  Ugh!  …. Everyone’s been there w/ this type of frustration, I know. Oh well, pursuing other local doctors.  Deb, mentioned a Dr. Vidarte nearby so, that maybe an interim doctor until, maybe Atlanta down the road. Also, I’ve received emails noting I should get specialized thyroid tests as the general test is not sufficient.  Wondering if my extended use of Lupron (& the other medical gems!) could be involved … hmmmm. Again thanks to those who responded & listened;  it’s always a great help. -jen-

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No, no thyroid problems to relate, but you are in my thoughts and prayers. I hope it turns out to be nothing…like dealing with endo isn’t enough, thyroid problems on top of it!  Sheesh.  Hang in there, and let us know the results when you get them. God bless, Deb – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Evening ladies & gents … since no responses, just wondering if no one out there has any related thyroid problems. Anyway, still struggling today.  Work is none to pleased that I’ve been out a week w/ pain.  I think they are getting ready to can me over it.  I’m praying this disease does not cost me my job. Again, should anyone have thyroid info, please let me know.  I’m calling the doc 2morrow 4the test results.  Thanks again for the support.  -jen-

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Evening ladies & gents … since no responses, just wondering if no one out there has any related thyroid problems.

I have borderline low thyroid so I take the lowest possible dose of Synthroid, but I don’t know whether it’s endo-related.  We had a thread some months ago about how many of us have low thyroid; quite a few, as I recall. Anyway, still struggling today.  Work is none to pleased that I’ve been out a week w/ pain.  I think they are getting ready to can me over it.  I’m praying this disease does not cost me my job.

Good luck. =Tamar

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 Evening ladies & gents … since no responses, just wondering if no one out there has any related thyroid problems. Anyway, still struggling today.  Work is none to pleased that I’ve been out a week w/ pain.  I think they are getting ready to can me over it.  I’m praying this disease does not cost me my job. Again, should anyone have thyroid info, please let me know.  I’m calling the doc 2morrow 4the test results.  Thanks again for the support.  -jen-

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 Hey, went back 2the docs 2day 2get reading on ultrasound, etc.  No need 2get in2 the details but suffice 2say that my reg doc was not avail so I saw a new nurse prac.  Her 1st ? 2me was:  "Now have you actually been diagnosed w/ endo?"   Grrrrr.  Hello!  It’s all in my file in your hand, I’ve had endo for years, the gyn in this office has done a gazillion laps, I’ve done all the drugs ….  Oh I was a little nicer than that, actually.  In the end, she agreed it was time I get my records down 2Atlanta 4a look-see. Anyway, 2my question … she noted (& I quote) my "thyroid was absolutely enormous".  I have 2say, I just don’t like hearing the word ‘enormous’ 4any reason from a doc!  hehehehe.  Anyway, they took blood & we’ll see what that’s all about in a few days. *** Pleeeeeease anyone who might have the same problem & has researched would you forward some good sites to me. (Just take out the words ‘no spam’ in my email address -or- post 2the group).  Someone out there is surely more internet savvy than I am.  I’m still feeling yucko from the pain & the idea of going through Yahoo & getting 40,000 hits on thyroid 2weed through is not my idea of pain therapy (or fun). If you can help, thanks in advance. PS:  Just found this interesting.  It made me realize how much Endo Awareness Week needs 2b publicized so, the professionals in the field can learn. While I’m running history w/ this nurse practioner, she asks if we have children.  I said no.  She asked what I was doing about it.  (All aggressive).  I explained where we were at … likely ending up in Atlanta as I saw it now & then maybe we could try w/ some success, etc.  She noted if I wasn’t having children, then I should "get off the pot" & get a hyst. Then (b4 I could speak) she went on 2tell me this was the only way I’d get relief as it would be curative, etc.  When she was done, I noted I had hoped 2keep all my organs 2try 2have kids (if that is a possibility), & that I knew a hyst was *not* a cure, that it has been reported that endo can produce it’s own estrogen, but even if you did not believe those studies, the estrogen in add-back therapy could cause the endo not located in the uterus 2grow even after the uterus was removed.  She said this was in a "handful" cases over all of these years.  Anyway, I let her know that I can appreciate her position & she was the nurse practioner (of the 2 of us) in the room, but I would have 2defer 2the research I’ve been doing which is 2the contrary of these old myths of hyst being a complete pain reliever & cure.  I let her know if she was interested I could provide info 4her 2look at so she could investigate 4herself.  (Then we moved on2 the reason I was in the office 2day).  I intend 2let my gyn know that 1) she’d not even taken 2minutes 2look at my chart b4 coming in & 2) she was quite vocal & opinionated on a subject I’m afraid she is not up w/ times on.  You know there is some unsuspecting 15yr old who’s going 2hear this speech & presume (as most of did) hyst was inevitable & the cure;  what a shame.  I hope I can prevent it, especially this week.

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Question:

Hi Wallaby!    I can’t help with the thyroid question, but I wanted to lend support for what your Aunt dared to put you through!!  The nerve!  If she’s a spiritual woman, she should know she has no right to sit in judgement of you, that’s God’s place.  I can- not believe that she said you were unfit to be around kids!! GRRRRRRR!!!  Sheesh, the ignorance we endure!!!  And from our own families!  Do not pay any attention to what she said.    I also agree with Carey, that because some of us have a harder time having children, we look at the blessing of children as just that, a blessing.  We know what a true gift they really are-it doesn’t make us unfit, but more so, I feel. Even those of us who have had their children before endo struck or had them more easily than some us, I think, they know too what a gift they are.    So, ignore the ignorance, and do take your own pain pill stash the next time or avoid staying with or seeing people who can’t be supportive of you.  You need positive energy, not the negative that some give off.  <G Take Care Sherry K – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Okay, I have a question that maybe some of you who have been through more than I have will know the answer to… You see, I went to visit an aunt of mine for the holidays, and she used to have endo and now is fine…but she seems angry at me because she was able to overcome hers and i still had mine. She refused to let me have anything for pain-not even aspirin while I stayed with her and she told me that she did not need to have painkiller because an angel had healed her(this was her excuse as to why I did not get to have painkiller) She also secluded me from the children who were there (not her kids, but the children of another aunt’s kids) saying that I couldn’t be around children since God sees me as unfit to be around children-which is why I am infertile (says she) Anyway, the one thing she said that I wanted to ask about was that she thinks I have a thyroid problem. Now, I have been tested for this several times and have come up fine in the thyroid department, but she says my doctors couldn’t possibly know what they were talking about because she had done research on thyroids and knew more than any doctor. (Now, I have come to deduce that my aunt is not all there mentally, but I still need to know) How accurate are te tests they do to see if you have a thyroid problem? I had reported the symptoms I was having to my doctor and she said that my body was adjusting to having only one ovary as well as being affected by different medications they had tried. The rest of the problems were considered to be symptoms of polycystic ovary syndrome, which I also have. I guess I worry because so many doctors were incorrect about what was wrong with me to begin with and I don’t want to miss something that could be wrong. The symptoms I have been having which my aunt says mean I have thyroid problems are: gaining weight (dr says thats POS) weak hair that is a different colour (told that was due to surgery& hormnes) being cold (I say that’s the season!) being depressed What does anyone think? Sorry I don’t have good news to relay….WAIT! I DO! My cat is all better! YAY! -Wallaby Posted at:  Thorny’s BBS, Lawrence, Kansas USA    telnet://thorny.ml.org — The Olympics are for lugers.

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Re: Re: Something Troubling Did she have surgery to make her fine?  Perhaps natural menopause shrunk the implants and that, and not Angels helped her with her endo pain.

That is a really good thought-and might explain why she did not put the heat on in her house and kept rolling the windows down in the carr while we were on the highway and it was snowing. She told me that there was something wrong with me forbeing so cold….The thought, for some reason, hadn’t occurred to me even though this is my mother’s older sister and my mother has already experienced menopause. Thanks! -Wallaby Posted at:  Thorny’s BBS, Lawrence, Kansas USA    telnet://thorny.ml.org — Thank God for Greyhound and Phone Disk.

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Wallaby, Hurrah for having insurance and financial security!!  I have an aunt who was the same way, so I don’t put much stock in what she has to say either unless it is something medical that I know to be true or possibly true than I evaluate who it came from and then research it myself!! Have a happy New year and email me anytime you like ok!! Love, Lee Ann Friend’s are a very special gift from God!

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Re: Re: Something Troubling I have the same symptoms as you plus severly dry skin that is itchy!!  I also believe I have a Thyroid problem and I do know that it runs in the family!!  I was once told that the regular test they give you is inaccurate in determining a Thyroid condition and if I remember correctly the only way to really test is to take an Antibodies test which from my understanding is very accurate as well as not cheap.  My insurance refused to cover it and my doctor says that since my other tests came out negative then why go through this test since she knows that it will be negative as well!!

Amazingly psychic doctor, there.  :-/   I have been tested for thyroid several times.  Once (the most recent) it came back "low" – all the other times it was "borderline".  I have found some relief of my sensitivity to cold on the absolute lowest dose of thyroid available, but I am still itchy (I’ve been itchy since 1973, finally started on thyroid in fall of 1996).   I have been told that such tests are judged relative to other tests taken at the same hospital, so if you live in an area where a lot of people are low-thyroid, you’ll be told you are normal; if you had the same result in an area where most of the tested people were high-thyroid, you’ll be told you are low thyroid.   There’s some controversy about thyroid testing, because before the modern tests were invented, the old "test" was symptoms and basal body temperature.  Doctors who prefer the old method say the new tests are not sensitive enough.   The old method is described in _Hypo-throidism: The Unsuspected Illness_ by Broda O. Barnes, M.D., and Lawrence Galton (1976, Harper and Row, ISBN 0-690-01029-X. It says among other things that there is a condition of _cyclic_ low thyroid in women: when men or pre-menstrual or menopausal women are tested, their tests are the same all month, but women who have cycles will often have low thyroid production for the first three days of their period, and borderline the rest of the time.  I think this is true, because when I tested low it was a test done (by coincidence) on the absolute first day of my period.  Also, another test is to have a thermometer by your bed and take your temperature the moment you wake up, without moving at all if possible (just barely enough to grab the thermometer and start taking temp).  This is to get your basal body temperature.  Some people have a low body temp anyway, but if it is especially low on the first three days of your period, you almost certainly have cyclic low thyroid.  And a continual low temp might be an indication of low thyroid.   My older sister also tested low enough for treatment once, but says later on she tested normal again so she is no longer under treatment.  We don’t talk much about personal matters so I don’t know what days she was tested. So I am still waiting for confirmation and I guess I will be waiting until hell freezes over or I develop hypothermia from my body temperature being abnormailly low!!  It sits at 96.4 consistently!! I wish I could be of more help.  Maybe find an Endocrinologist that is willing to listen to you and see what happpens. Thank you for your reply! I have been having dry skin, but I also figured that was the cold. I don’t know how to go about getting a test for it that will be accurate, but I must admit that I have a similar body temperature-I have to put about 4 extra blankets on my side of the bed at night just so I can get some rest! I thought that there might be someting to my aunt’s thyroid idea, though the rest of what she was telling me was off base (she said my grandparents don’t love me among other things) but I wanted to see what everyone here said first…

It’s hard to be wrong about absolutely everything.  Your aunt sounds very off the wall to me, but she might be right about the thyroid. but I will be able to get treatment for my endo now…I JUST GOT A NEW JOB THAT HAS FULL BENEFITS!!!!! I couldn’t be happier! I finally have some sense of security for the first time since I found out about the endo! -Wallaby

Yay!  That’s wonderful! =Tamar

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but I will be able to get treatment for my endo now…I JUST GOT A NEW JOB THAT HAS FULL BENEFITS!!!!! I couldn’t be happier! I finally have some sense of security for the first time since I found out about the endo! -Wallaby

Congratulations!!!!!  I am so happy for you….what a wonderful way to start off a new year….. *HUGS* Grats! Tricia

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Re: Re: Something Troubling I have the same symptoms as you plus severly dry skin that is itchy!!  I also believe I have a Thyroid problem and I do know that it runs in the family!!  I was once told that the regular test they give you is inaccurate in determining a Thyroid condition and if I remember correctly the only way to really test is to take an Antibodies test which from my understanding is very accurate as well as not cheap.  My insurance refused to cover it and my doctor says that since my other tests came out negative then why go through this test since she knows that it will be negative as well!! So I am still waiting for confirmation and I guess I will be waiting until hell freezes over or I develop hypothermia from my body temperature being abnormailly low!!  It sits at 96.4 consistently!! I wish I could be of more help.  Maybe find an Endocrinologist that is willing to listen to you and see what happpens. Love,

Thank you for your reply! I have been having dry skin, but I also figured that was the cold. I don’t know how to go about getting a test for it that will be accurate, but I must admit that I have a similar body temperature-I have to put about 4 extra blankets on my side of the bed at night just so I can get some rest! I thought that there might be someting to my aunt’s thyroid idea, though the rest of what she was telling me was off base(she said my grandparents don’t love me among other things) but I wanted to see what everyone here said first… but I will be able to get treatment for my endo now…I JUST GOT A NEW JOB THAT HAS FULL BENEFITS!!!!! I couldn’t be happier! I finally have some sense of security for the first time since I found out about the endo! -Wallaby Posted at:  Thorny’s BBS, Lawrence, Kansas USA    telnet://thorny.ml.org — WARNING: Studies suggest life can cause cancer. Please refrain.

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I wouldn’t go stay with that aunt again, but if I had to I would take my own stash of pain meds and tell her thanks for the advice but you are not her and leave it at that.  You are not unfit to be around children, that is the most assinine(sp) comment I have heard in a long time and I have heard quite a few lately.  I too have suffered infertility for many years and still hope to someday have a child, or we will adopt one but I think we who suffer from these dreadful diseases would maybe be more grateful to have a child and therefore treat them better and with more life wisdom than many women.  And God gives children to many many unfit mothers and fathers in this strange world, so being able to have children is certainly no way to judge the fit from the unfit is it????  Your blood tests for thyroid profile are pretty conclusive and it is a very common blood test.  If you had a thyroid problem it would show up in the test.  I would think your symptoms are more related to endo than anything else you mentioned.  I don’t know your history or all of your symptoms but I hope you have a good gyn or reproductive endocrinologist to help you with some pain relief. Good luck to you and Happy New Year.((((HUGS)))) — In Friendship, John and Carey Florida ~~~~Perception is Reality~~~~                        :-)

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You see, I went to visit an aunt of mine for the holidays, and she used to have endo and now is fine…but she seems angry at me because she was able to overcome hers and i still had mine. She refused to let me have anything for pain-not even aspirin while I stayed with her and she told me that she did not need to have painkiller because an angel had healed her(this was her excuse as to why I did not get to have painkiller) She also secluded me from the children who were there (not her kids, but the children of another aunt’s kids) saying that I couldn’t be around children since God sees me as unfit to be around children-which is why I am infertile (says she)<

Wow…this is about the most inhumane thing I’ve ever heard of!  We need treatment like this from our families??!  Poor you for having to go through such treatment! =( How accurate are te tests they do to see if you have a thyroid problem?<

I can’t say for sure, but I’ve had blood screens done to test for over/underactive and the doc seemed pretty confident in the results…I trust him and he seemed very sure of the outcome of the tests.  What he did discover through another test (CT) was that there was a growth on the thyroid…that was confirmed by a second-look with a specialist. I guess I worry because so many doctors were incorrect about what was wrong

with me to begin with and I don’t want to miss something that could be wrong.< I don’t blame you here… My cat is all better!

Yay!  Thank you for sharing some good news with us!  Now, if we could only get you all better…! =) Best, Heather http://www.geocities.com/hotsprings/9783/

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HI Wallaby, Im not sure of the answer to your question for sure but  I have had thyroid problems for many years now and actually had to have it removed 5 years ago, which now leaves me with symptoms of hypothyroid whic is what your describing. It took a few tests before it showed up in me in the begining. Now My Dr.s ask the lab for ultra sensitive tests. There is a Thyroid NG too that I used to post in, and there are many people in there that seem to know what they are talking about. Maybe you could ask them too. Who knows it might help. I hope you feel better and hang in there. Have a happy New Year Lee Anne M (the other Lee) Ps. To The other Lee Anne (not me) Ok same name and two of the same diseases…Freaky???? Are you my other twin???..lol ~~~ Probably the best remedy for anger is delay~~~                            =)

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Wallaby, I have the same symptoms as you plus severly dry skin that is itchy!!  I also believe I have a Thyroid problem and I do know that it runs in the family!!  I was once told that the regular test they give you is inaccurate in determining a Thyroid condition and if I remember correctly the only way to really test is to take an Antibodies test which from my understanding is very accurate as well as not cheap.  My insurance refused to cover it and my doctor says that since my other tests came out negative then why go through this test since she knows that it will be negative as well!! So I am still waiting for confirmation and I guess I will be waiting until hell freezes over or I develop hypothermia from my body temperature being abnormailly low!!  It sits at 96.4 consistently!! I wish I could be of more help.  Maybe find an Endocrinologist that is willing to listen to you and see what happpens. Love, Lee Ann Friend’s are a very special gift from God!

Response:

Okay, I have a question that maybe some of you who have been through more than I have will know the answer to… You see, I went to visit an aunt of mine for the holidays, and she used to have endo and now is fine…but she seems angry at me because she was able to overcome hers and i still had mine. She refused to let me have anything for pain-not even aspirin while I stayed with her and she told me that she did not need to have painkiller because an angel had healed her(this was her excuse as to why I did not get to have painkiller) She also secluded me from the children who were there (not her kids, but the children of another aunt’s kids) saying that I couldn’t be around children since God sees me as unfit to be around children-which is why I am infertile (says she) Anyway, the one thing she said that I wanted to ask about was that she thinks I have a thyroid problem. Now, I have been tested for this several times and have come up fine in the thyroid department, but she says my doctors couldn’t possibly know what they were talking about because she had done research on thyroids and knew more than any doctor. (Now, I have come to deduce that my aunt is not all there mentally, but I still need to know) How accurate are te tests they do to see if you have a thyroid problem? I had reported the symptoms I was having to my doctor and she said that my body was adjusting to having only one ovary as well as being affected by different medications they had tried. The rest of the problems were considered to be symptoms of polycystic ovary syndrome, which I also have. I guess I worry because so many doctors were incorrect about what was wrong with me to begin with and I don’t want to miss something that could be wrong. The symptoms I have been having which my aunt says mean I have thyroid problems are: gaining weight (dr says thats POS) weak hair that is a different colour (told that was due to surgery& hormnes) being cold (I say that’s the season!) being depressed What does anyone think? Sorry I don’t have good news to relay….WAIT! I DO! My cat is all better! YAY! -Wallaby Posted at:  Thorny’s BBS, Lawrence, Kansas USA    telnet://thorny.ml.org — The Olympics are for lugers.

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Question:

Salt is essential to good health because it5 regulates body fluids.  Salt is 60% chloride and 40% sodium.  Sodium provides the dominate positive ion that functions in conjunction with the negative ion of chloride.  A deficiency causes the electrolytes to fade and destruction of your health begins.

[...] Ignore promotions which claim that fat free and salt free are healthy choices.  The exploiters of human misery want your health.  It is an example of a noble profession that has been taken over by criminals.  If you have not been told the truth about your illness, it may be time to find a good mal practice attorney. With kind regards,

Ohhhhhhhh… We are STILL hurting from laughing so hard. come join us!  It takes absolute *genius* to parody the PickNoseGoo/PondScum/RiverMud (etc.) scams so thoroughly. We normally skip over them; the idea of studying them so well as to send them up like this would be beyond us. Hyperfocus, fer sher! — D. C. & M. V. Sessions

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says… Salt is essential to good health because it5 regulates body fluids. Snipppppppppp< I think that Irish Coffee is the best health food going, as it contains all the major food groups necessary for a balanced diet; Caffiene, Sugar, Fat, and Alcohol.

wait, you’re missing Red Meat!  Not to worry, there are still recipes for Cock Ale around, which in addition to its namesake rooster, frequently included other meat . . . — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

Dear Cambluka: I find your comments about "black-slime mold" and cleaning it with bleach as a cure for ADD to be TOTALY absurd, and misleading at best. You, sir, are being irresponsible by posting that in this newsgroup. EVERYONE knows that you should use a 64/79 mixture of Pycnogenol and Super (that’s super, NOT regular) Blue-Green-Fusia-Magenta Algae instead of bleach. There have been thousan…uh….MILLIONS of people who have been helped and are living to the ripe old age of 147 and 2 months. WITH NO ILL EFFECTS. Do to the piracy, I mean privacy laws I am unable to give you any of their names, but TRUST me-they’re out there.  If you come to our World Corporate Office,  I will personally  meet you at the local Wal-Mart parking lot and have you meet some of them in person (sometimes they are on vacation, so they may not be here when you arrive, but I promise, the day after you leave, they will return. I’ll even call you, at  your expense, to let you know  when they’ve returned). It has been PROVEN by that famous researcher, Dr. P. X. Kookie, that the above combination has been proven effective in 99.4286% of all cases of ADD. Unfortunately Dr. Kookies notes were left on the Greyhound bus on his way to his 2nd job as a light bulb cleaner in the Amish village of Nappannee. But they DO exist. Do to the nature of this marvel, the military-industrial-complex, no wait it’s, the medical-industrial-complex, no, no it’s the complex free radical complex..yeah that’s it—they want it off the market. They have tried, along with the Tri-lateral Commission and the Bourough of Brooklyn Tunnel Commission to surpress this data- that, by the way, JFK was transporting in the trunk of his car, that fateful day in Dallas, 1963. Luckily a man on the grassy knoll had the good sense to recover it and bring it to a little town called Roswell for safe keeping.  If this data becomes widespread ALL the drug companies, you know- the ones that put floride in the water to control our thoughts- will go broke. The CIA would never let that happen because the rich Jewish bankers say that it would cause a world wide panic AND a spot shortage of lox. Now I guarantee that 1) if this doesn’t help you like it helped BILLIONS of others, JUST LIKE YOU, I will refund (assuming you’re able to find me) your purchase price in full… less a small handling charge and restocking charge and postage charge and admiistrative charge. AND 2) If the states attorneys office forces uh… requests us to relocate to another state under a different name, we will offer you  at NO CHARGE,  a FULL refund that’s as good as the paper you’re reading this on now. Our company is so Large and Stable that the United States Government has allowed us to use their facilities for our business.         Start the road to recovery like TRILLIONS of others.                                       SCAM-A-CURE                   "because you’re gullible and we know it" .  Joe Drutz   ,aka Sammy the Weasel, aka "Fingers" Muldoon,                        aka "Greasy" Takaurmoney, and Seeda Cash  President and Chairman of the Bored

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NO, you are wrong.  I have discovered the real cause of ADD.  it is black-slime mold, under your bathmat.  I have found that since I cleaned it real good with bleach and got rid of all that black-slime mold that my son’s behaviour has improved a thousandfold. A bath that caused havoc and mayhem instead of cleanness and serenity! So there.

How often must you apply the bleach?  If I have multiple bathrooms, but my son only uses one, do I have to use bleach on BOTH bathrooms?  What’s the 800 number for your product??  Do you have a web site? Mary Hamill  ;-)

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While I was dwelling on the fundamental interconnectedness of all – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – NO, you are wrong.  I have discovered the real cause of ADD.  it is black-slime mold, under your bathmat.  I have found that since I cleaned it real good with bleach and got rid of all that black-slime mold that my son’s behaviour has improved a thousandfold. A bath that caused havoc and mayhem instead of cleanness and serenity! So there. How often must you apply the bleach?  If I have multiple bathrooms, but my son only uses one, do I have to use bleach on BOTH bathrooms?  What’s the 800 number for your product??  Do you have a web site? Mary Hamill  ;-)

I’m too impulsive to clean effectively due to my ADD.  Maybe I’ll just stop taking baths. Don Stauffer | Email is welcome except solicitation, which | | will be forwarded to domain Administrators. |

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Trollin’ trollin’ trollin’ Keep those doggies trollin’ RAWHIDE!

CHUCKLE!!!

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I prefered BTO’s "Troll on down the highway" or Chuck Berry’s "Troll over Beethoven."  How about Zepplin’s "Rock and troll?"   —

ROFL! Good ones! The song that kept coming to my head was, "Trolling, trolling, over the bounding main…" Wendy

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I think that Irish Coffee is the best health food going, as it contains all the major food groups necessary for a balanced diet; Caffiene, Sugar, Fat, and Alcohol.

Tiger, A-and… methinks making it with Bailey’s Irish Creme is the most potent elixir… top o’ the mornin’ to ya… Wendy

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about: I prefered BTO’s "Troll on down the highway" or Chuck Berry’s "Troll over Beethoven."  How about Zepplin’s "Rock and troll?"   — ROFL! Good ones! The song that kept coming to my head was, "Trolling, trolling, over the bounding main…" Wendy

Wendy, We must be TWINS that was in my head last nite as I fell asleep!!

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Duncan120, Agh, these posts of yours are priceless! Got my circulation going this morning… hey, I’m a firm believer that laughter is the best medicine! Wendy

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Proud Mary Keeps on Trollin"  CCR "Troll Sacrifice"                               Santana "Trollin up the Country"               Canned Heat "You’ve lost that Trollin Feeling" Rightous Brothers "Wont Get Trolled Again"             The Who "Troll Love Ways"                          Buddy Holly "Hey Troll"                                       Jimi Hendrix "I’m a Troll Man"                             Sam and Dave "Be Troll To Your School"            Beach Boys "Fernantroll"                                     ABBA "Trolly Bully"                                   Sam the Sham "Little Bit O’ Troll"                           Music Explosion "Trolly Trolly"                                 Tommy James/Shondells "Trollin on Empty"                           Jackson Browne "Trollfinger"                                     Shirly Bassey/ James Bond "Anything Trolls"                            Troll Porter "Mr. Trollburine Man"                   Byrds/ Dylan "Bye Bye Birdie"                            Troll Coward Ron S

ROFL! <wiping the tears Oh, gads, I needed a good laugh today… thanks so much… Wendy

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You know, I cleaned through the house because I had guests, (a rare occurrance) and you know what? My ADD wasn’t so bad! Amazing, how simple the solutions can be!

Hallowell and Barkley have long recommended vigorous physical exercise as an adjunctive treatment for ADHD. I recommend sex. It is an excellent aerobic activity, helps if you have a bad back, and when it is not great, it ain’t so bad. It certainly makes the sweating worthwhile.

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While I was dwelling on the fundamental interconnectedness of all You know, I cleaned through the house because I had guests, (a rare occurrance) and you know what? My ADD wasn’t so bad! Amazing, how simple the solutions can be! Hallowell and Barkley have long recommended vigorous physical exercise as an adjunctive treatment for ADHD. I recommend sex. It is an excellent aerobic activity, helps if you have a bad back, and when it is not great, it ain’t so bad. It certainly makes the sweating worthwhile.

I have to agree strongly that a large amount of strenuous physical activity makes a major difference. When I had a little more time, earlier this year, I was spending about 4 days per week at the YMCA, with this program: 15 minutes stationary bicycle with resistance high enough to make _major_ sweat. 45 minutes of Nautilus-type machines, weight as high as pos. without being unable to do 10 reps 15 more minutes of stationary bicycle 1 mile swim (a little less than an hour) (I don’t think you can get this much exercise from sex!) This is a _major_ amount of exercise in my opinion, but the result was the most improvement by far in AD/HD symptoms of _anything_, including medicine (I’ve tried Ritalin and am now on Adderall).  I have to add that the Ritalin helped me have the discipline to do this, though. Don Stauffer | Email is welcome except solicitation, which | | will be forwarded to domain Administrators. |

Response:

I prefered BTO’s "Troll on down the highway" or Chuck Berry’s "Troll over Beethoven."  How about Zepplin’s "Rock and troll?" ROFL! Good ones! The song that kept coming to my head was, "Trolling, trolling, over the bounding main…" Trollin’ trollin’ trollin’ Keep those doggies trollin’ RAWHIDE!

"Just trollin’ along, on Moonlight Baaaaaaay …" "Trollin’ in my sweet baby’s arms, Trollin’ in my sweet baby’s arms, Gonna lay around this shack till the mail train comes back, Trollin’ in my sweet baby’s arms"

Response:

I prefered BTO’s "Troll on down the highway" or Chuck Berry’s "Troll over Beethoven."  How about Zepplin’s "Rock and troll?"   — ROFL! Good ones! The song that kept coming to my head was, "Trolling, trolling, over the bounding main…" Wendy

Trollin’ trollin’ trollin’ Keep those doggies trollin’ RAWHIDE! Tom Boland

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"Troll Trek"!!!  Space, the final Frontier…These are the voyages of the Starship Trollity, it’s five year mission…to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before! Ed

Response:

You know, I cleaned through the house because I had guests, (a rare occurrance) and you know what? My ADD wasn’t so bad! Amazing, how simple the solutions can be! Hallowell and Barkley have long recommended vigorous physical exercise as an adjunctive treatment for ADHD.

I have been trying out this suggestion, and it’s amazing – it’s really helping me I live right next door to a sports centre with an excellent creche, and I have never used their facilities until recently when I decided to give this a go. It’s great – I get to get my adrenaline rush and the kids get a lovely time in the creche, where they do all kinds of fun things like painting and modelling etc. And when I’ve finished, I’m calm for hours I recommend sex. It is an excellent aerobic activity, helps if you have a bad back, and when it is not great, it ain’t so bad. It certainly makes the sweating worthwhile.

I tried sex. That’s why I’ve got the kids. It’s a great side-effect, but not one I’d like to experience too many times — Anna (mummy to Emma, born 17th Jan 1995 and Alice, born 11th Sept 1996) You were hungry and I was sorry. You were thirsty, and I blamed the world. You were a stranger, and I pointed you out. You were naked, and I turned you in. You were sick, and I said a prayer. You were in prison, and I wrote a poem.                         STEVE TURNER

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Trollin’ . . . Trollin’ . . . Trollin’ to the river . . . While I was dwelling on the fundamental interconnectedness of all Re: salt deficiency and ADD–I have observed that there is frequently a relationship between low thyroid, or thyroid resistance, and ADD.

Don Stauffer | Email is welcome except solicitation, which | | will be forwarded to domain Administrators. |

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Trollin’ . . . Trollin’ . . . Trollin’ to the river . . . (snip) Don Stauffer | Email is welcome except solicitation, which | | will be forwarded to domain Administrators. |

I prefered BTO’s "Troll on down the highway" or Chuck Berry’s "Troll over Beethoven."  How about Zepplin’s "Rock and troll?"   — James Dinsdale? Dinsdaaaaale!!!

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I prefered BTO’s "Troll on down the highway" or Chuck Berry’s "Troll over Beethoven."  How about Zepplin’s "Rock and troll?"  

"Proud Mary Keeps on Trollin"  CCR "Troll Sacrifice"                               Santana "Trollin up the Country"               Canned Heat "You’ve lost that Trollin Feeling" Rightous Brothers "Wont Get Trolled Again"             The Who "Troll Love Ways"                          Buddy Holly "Hey Troll"                                       Jimi Hendrix "I’m a Troll Man"                             Sam and Dave "Be Troll To Your School"            Beach Boys "Fernantroll"                                     ABBA "Trolly Bully"                                   Sam the Sham "Little Bit O’ Troll"                           Music Explosion "Trolly Trolly"                                 Tommy James/Shondells "Trollin on Empty"                           Jackson Browne "Trollfinger"                                     Shirly Bassey/ James Bond "Anything Trolls"                            Troll Porter "Mr. Trollburine Man"                   Byrds/ Dylan "Bye Bye Birdie"                            Troll Coward Ron S

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: salt deficiency and ADD–I have observed that there is frequently a relationship between low thyroid, or thyroid resistance, and ADD.  One frequent manifestation of low thyroid function (whether caused by low levels in the blood or resistance in the thyroid receptors within the cells) is hyponatremia, or low levels of salt in the body.  Another frequent manifestation of low thyroid function is poor concentration and other ADD-like symptoms. My thyroid blood levels were low normal.  My basal temperature was 96.3 (normal is 97.8-98.2)  Now, taking *three grains* of thyroid per day (a very large dose) my body temperature is still just slightly low (98.4 walking around–I haven’t gotten around to taking my basal temp recently) and I have absolutely *no* signs of high thyroid function. Since I have been taking the thyroid (natural Armour thyroid) my ADD symptoms have improved greatly, even without taking the conventional medications (which have troublesome side effects for me), So I find it not at all incredible that ADD symptoms should be linked to low  sodium levels in the body.  Low salt levels also enable allergies to run rampant, BTW, so if you think allergies are contributing to your ADD symptoms that’s all the more reason to check out your thyroid status (finding a doctor who is not wedded to a conventional interpretation of your blood test results, if necessary), and to salt your food to taste, not artificially restricting yourself in your intake (unless under doctor’s orders).

OTOH, we just had the boys analyzed down to the molecular level (really, at least in part: they did check for certain genetic markers.)  Both had absolutely dead-on thyroid function despite almost pegging the ADHD scale. — D. C. & M. V. Sessions http://www.primenet.com/~sessions under construction

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Re: salt deficiency and ADD–I have observed that there is frequently a relationship between low thyroid, or thyroid resistance, and ADD.  One frequent manifestation of low thyroid function (whether caused by low levels in the blood or resistance in the thyroid receptors within the cells) is hyponatremia, or low levels of salt in the body.  Another frequent manifestation of low thyroid function is poor concentration and other ADD-like symptoms. My thyroid blood levels were low normal.  My basal temperature was 96.3 (normal is 97.8-98.2)  Now, taking *three grains* of thyroid per day (a very large dose) my body temperature is still just slightly low (98.4 walking around–I haven’t gotten around to taking my basal temp recently) and I have absolutely *no* signs of high thyroid function. Since I have been taking the thyroid (natural Armour thyroid) my ADD symptoms have improved greatly, even without taking the conventional medications (which have troublesome side effects for me), So I find it not at all incredible that ADD symptoms should be linked to low  sodium levels in the body.  Low salt levels also enable allergies to run rampant, BTW, so if you think allergies are contributing to your ADD symptoms that’s all the more reason to check out your thyroid status (finding a doctor who is not wedded to a conventional interpretation of your blood test results, if necessary), and to salt your food to taste, not artificially restricting yourself in your intake (unless under doctor’s orders). Margaret H.  

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Question:

Hi Soccer Mom! I know nothing about the meds you described (I take Zoloft).  But I did want to welcome you to ASD.  I have just become a soccer mom, myself, recently.  It’s…different. Tell us more about yourself? marijo

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I’m new here, and so far I think this ng is better than any (other?) therapy group I’ve ever been in… I’ve been on Nortriptyline since Dec. 30, 1996.  Had several breakthrough depressive episodes, so my dosage has been 125 mg since mid-March.  This didn’t stop the depression either (how to change the thinking patterns of a lifetime!), so last week my pdoc started me on 25 mcg cytomel, which I think is a thyroid hormone.  Has anyone here taken thyroid along with their antidepressant?  It hasn’t been a full week yet, so I’m not sure how I’m responding. I was holding off posting (after reading off&on since Dec.) because I couldn’t think of a suitable nickname.  Out of desperation, after another weekend on the soccer fields, I chose Soccer Mom (temporarily, I hope!) Soccer Mom

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I’m new here, and so far I think this ng is better than any (other?) therapy group I’ve ever been in…

<smile..i still consider myself new hear, but yep..these ppl are great! I’ve been on Nortriptyline since Dec. 30, 1996.  Had several breakthrough depressive episodes, so my dosage has been 125 mg since mid-March.  This didn’t stop the depression either (how to change the thinking patterns of a lifetime!), so last week my pdoc started me on 25 mcg cytomel, which I think is a thyroid hormone.  Has anyone here taken thyroid along with their antidepressant?  It hasn’t been a full week yet, so I’m not sure how I’m responding.

my pdoc put me on cytomel for a brief time..and it was to augment some antidepressant i was on at the time…sorry..can’t for the life of me remember which a.d. it was..it also caused me to retain water so then the pdoc had to prescribe something for that… <snip lynn — "If anyone wants a jelly doughnut without the filling, they’re ready now" -Walter Matthau, The Couch Trip <movie

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m new here, and so far I think this ng is better than any (other?) therapy group I’ve ever been in… I’ve been on Nortriptyline since Dec. 30, 1996.  Had several breakthrough depressive episodes, so my dosage has been 125 mg since mid-March.  This didn’t stop the depression either (how to change the thinking patterns of a lifetime!), so last week my pdoc started me on 25 mcg cytomel, which I think is a thyroid hormone.  Has anyone here taken thyroid along with their antidepressant?  It hasn’t been a full week yet, so I’m not sure how I’m responding. I was holding off posting (after reading off&on since Dec.) because I couldn’t think of a suitable nickname.  Out of desperation, after another weekend on the soccer fields, I chose Soccer Mom (temporarily, I hope!) Soccer Mom

Hi Mom!!! lol giggle well, i’m ALREADY on synthroid for hypothyroidism, but my old pdoc would keep it deliberately a little on the high side to augment the ads…. he said it would help em working…. now i’m on a new pdoc who doesn’t want to handle the synthroid part of the equation, and my nurse-practitioner shit a ton of bricks (haha) when she got my latest test results, cuz they were high (gasp – imagine that) and she said that long-term too-high thyroid hormone can cause osteoporosis but i said hey, you want me to live long enuf for that to — Spider `((/      Original "Spider" by Eric ,/((

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Question:

Well said, Karen– I’m with you. Sally -27 lbs

Sally, Congrats on your meter…keep up the good work!!!! Karen -21lbs And if I only could, I’d make a deal with God, and get him to swap our places… Be running up that road, Be running up that hill…with no problems…Kate Bush

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           ~~~~~~~ THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE ~~~~~~                              T                                    [18 lb] T, Congrats on the 18lb loss!!!! Karen (who is starting to feel good about this NG again) -21lbs What did you say this button was for?…ZAP…program terminated!

Thank you!  Your 21# is pretty darn great, too!             ~~~~~~~ THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE ~~~~~~                               T                                     [18 lb]

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Well said, Karen– I’m with you. Sally -27 lbs – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m starting a weight loss meter…any of you who think this makes sense place one under your name. TOGETHER we can shape the direction this ng is going to go to in the future. Karen -20lbs What did you say this button was for?…ZAP…program terminated!

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           ~~~~~~~ THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE ~~~~~~                              T                                    [18 lb]

T, Congrats on the 18lb loss!!!! Karen (who is starting to feel good about this NG again) -21lbs What did you say this button was for?…ZAP…program terminated!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And a "well said" from me, too, Karen Congratulations on the -20!! Hope you don’t mind, though – I am a very addictive personality who needs to keep track of the "abstinence" more than the weight.  I’m happiest when I’m very strict with me    OK if my meter has time instead of weight?  I may change my mind once I start losing some, and use both I finally began a program of healthy eating today, and it looks like I may actually make it to bedtime!!! Carol Day 1

Carol, As I said in my post…Whatever Works for you!!!!!  And I say Congrats on you sticking to your food plan for a day, take it one day at a time.  We will be here for you. Karen -21lbs What did you say this button was for?…ZAP…program terminated!

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Chris G. -8 lbs

Chris, Love your meter!!! Karen -21lbs What did you say this button was for?…ZAP…program terminated!

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Seems we still can’t get over ourselves.   Seems there are few who will ruin it for many. Seems like fighting is the only answer here. I find it sad that some newbies have to resort to e-mail to get questions answered, cuz they are afraid to post here. Ok Ok let’s do some concessions here shall we?

  <great stuff cut because my mail editor makes me I edited my Kill file and it’s like a whole new newsgroup The thing that gets me about all of it is not that it’s not interesting & informative & important & admirable & alllll that… but it’s all SO repetitive!!!!!! Many people post the same claims & flames day after day after day after day. Aaarg. So to my kill file I added: fen, phen, cabbage, jet <sorry dear & cash. The funniest thing is that when I went into the stop smoking support group the other day, cabbage killed a msg… I do kinda wish I had seen that one Maybe they’re recommending smoking cabbage as an alternative to tobacco. I’m on day 3 of McDougalling and feeling pretty steady. If there any veteran McDougallers out there– What are you eating for breakfast? I had an apple & rice cakes again this morning & am afraid that will get old. Oatmeal & plain cold cereal don’t appeal much, but I think I’ll have to move to one of those next. And I was a little confused on where he stands on coffee. On one hand, he seems to think that drinking 1-2 cups can be helpful (but NOT caffeine pills), but then sort of backed down on the endorsement. At least that’s how I read it. I would love to hear what other people think. Also, does anyone know how to get the fatfree listserv in NON-digest form? I can’t figure out how to reply to the digested msgs. TIA, Mary

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Seems we still can’t get over ourselves.   Seems there are few who will ruin it for many. Seems like fighting is the only answer here.

Sure does. . .      <SNIP< SNIP TOGETHER we can shape the direction this ng is going to go to in the future. Karen -20lbs

Karen, this was a wonderful post.  Your statements truly reflect what a ’support’ group is all about.  You are correct…We are all different, and different weight loss methodologies work for each of us.  That’s what makes us humans so interesting, we are all unique individuals!! The weight loss meter is a great idea. . .             ~~~~~~~ THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE ~~~~~~                               T                                     [18 lb]

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Thank you for writing this!  I hope it helps. jane s -34

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And a "well said" from me, too, Karen Congratulations on the -20!! Hope you don’t mind, though – I am a very addictive personality who needs to keep track of the "abstinence" more than the weight.  I’m happiest when I’m very strict with me    OK if my meter has time instead of weight?  I may change my mind once I start losing some, and use both I finally began a program of healthy eating today, and it looks like I may actually make it to bedtime!!! Carol Day 1 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Seems we still can’t get over ourselves.   Seems there are few who will ruin it for many. Seems like fighting is the only answer here. I find it sad that some newbies have to resort to e-mail to get questions answered, cuz they are afraid to post here. Ok Ok let’s do some concessions here shall we? Low-fat, low-carb, Phen/Fen, all have people who are doing very well, enjoy it, and believe their way is the best way.  True?  maybe not, but that’s how human nature is.  Let’s concede that your plan is right for you, and your neighbors plan is right for him. How can I say this?  Well let’s see, I’m a phen/fen atkins person, who could easily contribute to low fat discussions, as I did it for so many years, and I have enough recipies to keep them busy for months, if only they would ask.   Same goes for weight watchers, want a recipie just ask.  What do you think happens when you slip and eat something you shouldn’t.  Do you think the feelings are any different for any of the groups?  Hey I feel bad over here…do you feel good about slipping? All anti Phen/Fenners…All Pro Phen/Fenners…give it a break.  If you want, or need the drug then it is your decision.  If you don’t want or need the drug then by all means don’t go to your doctor and ask him/her for it. All Willpower’s, my way is only way, moralizing etc…I have willpower, I just quit smoking 8 days ago, that’s willpower, however with food it takes ME…and the operative word is ME more than just telling myself NO.  However if it works for you then all I can say is GOD BLESS YOU.  It doesn’t make you better than me, it makes you you! Can we support each other here….Can I come on and say I blew my diet today, I ate that candy bar, and someone come on and say, hey it was one candy bar, dust yourself off and go on!!! Can we agree that our common goal is weight loss and a healthier lifestyle…irregardless that our health styles are different from each other? Can we get over the name calling and get on with what we are intending to do…and that is help each other, either with diet tips or kind words.  I think that all factions of dieting can agree on telling someone to drink more water!   Can we come on and say "Today I stuck to my diet with no cheating at all" and get some good for you’s. Can we answer questions from our brains not our emotions? Are we old enough to skip a topic we find irratating? I want support, I need support, I don’t need headaches. I’m starting a weight loss meter…any of you who think this makes sense place one under your name.   TOGETHER we can shape the direction this ng is going to go to in the future. Karen -20lbs What did you say this button was for?…ZAP…program terminated!

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Seems we still can’t get over ourselves.   Seems there are few who will ruin it for many. Seems like fighting is the only answer here. I find it sad that some newbies have to resort to e-mail to get questions answered, cuz they are afraid to post here. Ok Ok let’s do some concessions here shall we? Low-fat, low-carb, Phen/Fen, all have people who are doing very well, enjoy it, and believe their way is the best way.  True?  maybe not, but that’s how human nature is.  Let’s concede that your plan is right for you, and your neighbors plan is right for him. How can I say this?  Well let’s see, I’m a phen/fen atkins person, who could easily contribute to low fat discussions, as I did it for so many years, and I have enough recipies to keep them busy for months, if only they would ask.   Same goes for weight watchers, want a recipie just ask.  What do you think happens when you slip and eat something you shouldn’t.  Do you think the feelings are any different for any of the groups?  Hey I feel bad over here…do you feel good about slipping? All anti Phen/Fenners…All Pro Phen/Fenners…give it a break.  If you want, or need the drug then it is your decision.  If you don’t want or need the drug then by all means don’t go to your doctor and ask him/her for it. All Willpower’s, my way is only way, moralizing etc…I have willpower, I just quit smoking 8 days ago, that’s willpower, however with food it takes ME…and the operative word is ME more than just telling myself NO.  However if it works for you then all I can say is GOD BLESS YOU.  It doesn’t make you better than me, it makes you you! Can we support each other here….Can I come on and say I blew my diet today, I ate that candy bar, and someone come on and say, hey it was one candy bar, dust yourself off and go on!!! Can we agree that our common goal is weight loss and a healthier lifestyle…irregardless that our health styles are different from each other? Can we get over the name calling and get on with what we are intending to do…and that is help each other, either with diet tips or kind words.  I think that all factions of dieting can agree on telling someone to drink more water!   Can we come on and say "Today I stuck to my diet with no cheating at all" and get some good for you’s. Can we answer questions from our brains not our emotions? Are we old enough to skip a topic we find irratating? I want support, I need support, I don’t need headaches. I’m starting a weight loss meter…any of you who think this makes sense place one under your name.   TOGETHER we can shape the direction this ng is going to go to in the future. Karen -20lbs What did you say this button was for?…ZAP…program terminated!

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Oh, I forgot about that.  Thanks, George. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My first thought is that maybe it’s related to your thyroid problems. Low thyroid can make you tired and worn out. I don’t know what high thyroid might do. Have they started you on medication yet? Maybe the dosage isn’t right. George 335/315/300 (First Goal) Treading with the Troops Dunno what has been with me the past little while, but I am just so awefully tired.  No energy at all.  The good side is that I have no appetite, but the bad side is that I have no energy for workouts either.  It takes every ounce of will power I have just to walk out to the car to go to work each day.  I sleep in excess of 10 hours a night, wake up feeling as though I have not slept a wink.  Can hardly keep my eyes open at work, and though I cannot say that I feel ill, I really don’t feel well either.  any thoughts? Adreeanna Hey! Anybody seen my sig? It was here a minute ago!

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you have had a couple rough weeks, perhaps you are suffering from some depression? i also have noted some underlying "anger" in your posts, over the how about calling your doctor, and having an assessment? — rosie I was recently on a tour of Latin America, and the only regret I have was that I didn’t study Latin harder in school so I could converse with those people – Former U.S. Vice-President Dan Quayle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dunno what has been with me the past little while, but I am just so awefully tired.  No energy at all.  The good side is that I have no appetite, but the bad side is that I have no energy for workouts either.  It takes every ounce of will power I have just to walk out to the car to go to work each day. I sleep in excess of 10 hours a night, wake up feeling as though I have not slept a wink.  Can hardly keep my eyes open at work, and though I cannot say that I feel ill, I really don’t feel well either.  any thoughts? Adreeanna —

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Did they put you on any anti-thyroid type meds for your Graves disease? If so, those could slow down your metabolism and make you want to sleep all the time.  If not, it’s possible to also have hypothyroid symptoms with Graves, from what I understand. Dunno what has been with me the past little while, but I am just so awefully tired.  No energy at all.  The good side is that I have no appetite, but the bad side is that I have no energy for workouts either.  It takes every ounce of will power I have just to walk out to the car to go to work each day.  I sleep in excess of 10 hours a night, wake up feeling as though I have not slept a wink.  Can hardly keep my eyes open at work, and though I cannot say that I feel ill, I really don’t feel well either.  any thoughts? Adreeanna —

– KC "Sometimes, in the pursuit of pleasure, we forget that what we are ultimately searching for is happiness."

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Wow, this seems sudden.  Let’s see, you just started  a new business and had a serious health problem. Do you think if you give things a little time to work out it might go better?  Like after you actually open — in September, right?  I guess what I’m saying is that you’ve had some really heavy stuff going on and maybe you are just worn out physically and emotionally. Cheers Patty – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dunno what has been with me the past little while, but I am just so awefully tired.  No energy at all.  The good side is that I have no appetite, but the bad side is that I have no energy for workouts either.  It takes every ounce of will power I have just to walk out to the car to go to work each day.  I sleep in excess of 10 hours a night, wake up feeling as though I have not slept a wink.  Can hardly keep my eyes open at work, and though I cannot say that I feel ill, I really don’t feel well either.  any thoughts? Adreeanna —

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Adreeanna I hope you don’t have mono! That will wipe you out.  Sleeping is the only treatment there is.  You usually have an extremely hard time staying awake and spend about 20 hrs a day sleeping. I’ve had this, it’s horrible. Laid me up in bed on medical leave for a few months.  Doesn’t sound like thats what you have though or you’d be sleeping more, I think. Have you been to the dr, sounds like its time to get a complete blood workup done!!! Sue – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dunno what has been with me the past little while, but I am just so awefully tired.  No energy at all.  The good side is that I have no appetite, but the bad side is that I have no energy for workouts either.  It takes every ounce of will power I have just to walk out to the car to go to work each day.  I sleep in excess of 10 hours a night, wake up feeling as though I have not slept a wink.  Can hardly keep my eyes open at work, and though I cannot say that I feel ill, I really don’t feel well either.  any thoughts? Adreeanna —

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No.  Actually they have not even really concluded that it is thyroid.  There is still one more blood test that they are waiting on for a final diagnosis. Then they can start on a medication regime.  It is hyper that they are looking for too which should make me more ummm…energetic…trembly, jittery…huge appetite..etc… i still think they are barking up the wrong tree with thyroid.  but this last test had to be sent to Mayo clinic as no lab in Winnipeg does it, so I have to wait for a while yet. Adreeanna — F-ace  or         F-uck E-verything     E-verything A-nd               A-nd R-ecover       R-un – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My first thought is that maybe it’s related to your thyroid problems. Low thyroid can make you tired and worn out. I don’t know what high thyroid might do. Have they started you on medication yet? Maybe the dosage isn’t right. George 335/315/300 (First Goal) Treading with the Troops Dunno what has been with me the past little while, but I am just so awefully tired.  No energy at all.  The good side is that I have no appetite, but the bad side is that I have no energy for workouts either.  It takes every ounce of will power I have just to walk out to the car to go to work each day. I sleep in excess of 10 hours a night, wake up feeling as though I have not slept a wink.  Can hardly keep my eyes open at work, and though I cannot say that I feel ill, I really don’t feel well either.  any thoughts? Adreeanna Hey! Anybody seen my sig? It was here a minute ago!

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My first thought is that maybe it’s related to your thyroid problems. Low thyroid can make you tired and worn out. I don’t know what high thyroid might do. Have they started you on medication yet? Maybe the dosage isn’t right. George 335/315/300 (First Goal) Treading with the Troops Dunno what has been with me the past little while, but I am just so awefully tired.  No energy at all.  The good side is that I have no appetite, but the bad side is that I have no energy for workouts either.  It takes every ounce of will power I have just to walk out to the car to go to work each day.  I sleep in excess of 10 hours a night, wake up feeling as though I have not slept a wink.  Can hardly keep my eyes open at work, and though I cannot say that I feel ill, I really don’t feel well either.  any thoughts? Adreeanna

Hey! Anybody seen my sig? It was here a minute ago!

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Dunno what has been with me the past little while, but I am just so awefully tired.  No energy at all.  The good side is that I have no appetite, but the bad side is that I have no energy for workouts either.  It takes every ounce of will power I have just to walk out to the car to go to work each day.  I sleep in excess of 10 hours a night, wake up feeling as though I have not slept a wink.  Can hardly keep my eyes open at work, and though I cannot say that I feel ill, I really don’t feel well either.  any thoughts? Adreeanna —

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TIRED OF: Being uncomfortable in a theater chair,and airplane seat. Not being able to wipe myself easily. Being out of breath walking to my car. Rashes under my breasts and abdomen Kicking something out of the way instead of bending to pick it up. Stabbing pains in my knees and low back pain. Rocking to get off the couch. Heartburn from eating too much. Looking at myself in the mirror and not reconizing the reflection. Tired of being my heaviest 270# 5′2" but greatful to say today is day 1. Anne

Welcome!  It appears you’ve taken the first step on the path to a major life change.  Many successful dieters and maintainers report that they reached a point where enough was enough – some call it an epiphany (Dally has a better list than I do). Do you have a plan yet?  This is an excellent source for information (and some not so good information).  Keep a positive attitude and it will help you in the long run – ignore failure talk.  Remember that it will be a long journey and possibly (though not always) a bumpy ride.  Ok, enough cliches. Best of luck to you and please feel free to ask questions or just keep us posted on your progress. Jenn

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TIRED OF:   Being uncomfortable in a theater chair,and airplane seat. Not being able to wipe myself easily. Being out of breath walking to my car. Rashes under my breasts and abdomen Kicking something out of the way instead of bending to pick it up. Stabbing pains in my knees and low back pain. Rocking to get off the couch. Heartburn from eating too much. Looking at myself in the mirror and not reconizing the reflection. Tired of being my heaviest 270# 5′2" but greatful to say today is day 1. Anne

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Welcome, Anne.  Congratulations on starting toward a new, healthier you!  You can do it — it’s all about taking it a day at a time.  A little over two years ago I was about where — 262 lbs.  Now I weigh 138, and have been at goal for 3+ months.  And my life is better in countless ways. I encourage you to get involved with the group — post often, ask questions, join in discussions.  You can learn a lot here and get a lot of encouragement. Chris

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Welcome Renee!! You WILL do this if you tell yourself that you CAN! I was once at a weight very close to yours but that was about 25 years ago. I was under 40 years old and I did it alone. I wanted it more than excess food !! Dr. Phil’s book and the book Thin For Life is a good read to help you .  Keep close and we will be here for you! Sizes= 24 /14/12

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TIRED OF: Being uncomfortable in a theater chair,and airplane seat. Not being able to wipe myself easily. Being out of breath walking to my car. Rashes under my breasts and abdomen Kicking something out of the way instead of bending to pick it up. Stabbing pains in my knees and low back pain. Rocking to get off the couch. Heartburn from eating too much. Looking at myself in the mirror and not reconizing the reflection. Tired of being my heaviest 270# 5′2" but greatful to say today is day 1. Anne

Welcome Anne.  Many of us felt the same as you when we decided it was time to take control and lose the weight.  I hope you continue to post as you’ll find lots of information and support in the group. Many in the group use www.fitday.com to journal their food.  It’s a good way to keep track of the calories and determine the carb/fats/protein ratio in your diet.  Just take it one day at a time.  Everything doesn’t have to be changed in one day. Beverly

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TIRED OF:   Being uncomfortable in a theater chair,and airplane seat. Not being able to wipe myself easily. Being out of breath walking to my car. Rashes under my breasts and abdomen Kicking something out of the way instead of bending to pick it up. Stabbing pains in my knees and low back pain. Rocking to get off the couch. Heartburn from eating too much. Looking at myself in the mirror and not reconizing the reflection. Tired of being my heaviest 270# 5′2" but greatful to say today is day 1. Anne

Welcome to asd, Anne.  I would advise you to use this group as the wonderful resource it is for ideas and encouragement, and to post regularly about how things are going for you.   It sounds as if you’ve taken the first positive steps already. janice

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<snip Tired of being my heaviest 270# 5′2" but greatful to say today is day 1.

Hi Anne.  I’m just starting out myself and can tell you I have found the people here to be positive, supportive, and offer a wealth of information that helps you find what Way of Eating/Way of Living works for you.  (Which I am still ironing out, I think it is a little too early for me to say that a particular thing is what works for me.)   I hope that you ASD to be helpful to you and enjoy it here. Marisa

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Hi Anne: I endured everything on your list except heartburn. I started this WOL less than a year ago weighing nearly 100 pounds more than you (I’m 5′8"). But recently I have been experiencing this from your list: "Looking at myself in the mirror and not recognizing the reflection." But now, I like what I’m seeing. You’ve gotten good advice here. My two cents is work with your doctor and a nutritionist. It’s all about getting healthy. As always, YMMV. Kasey 365/230/???

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Welcome.  Why do you sign yourself "Anne" but your name is "Renee" online? Can you tell us more about your situation?  What are your current preferred foods, what sort of movement can you fit into your life, what sort of job and family life do you have? TIRED OF:   Rocking to get off the couch.

I recognized this entire list, but this one startled me.  Last week in the gym I was sitting at the seated row station and just stood up without grabbing anything.  I noticed it at the time (and in fact repeated it after the next set) and it was sort of in the back of my mind to think about… and then you wrote that and I remember why it was noticeable.  I can get up from being seated one inch off the floor without rocking or grabbing or being helped up now.  Wow, what a difference! I’m only pointing this out here because the little achievements come steadily when you’re losing weight.  This one came over two years after I started to lose weight and I almost missed it. I really like that you listed out the things you don’t like about being fat.  I think you need to do another step, though: list out the things you DO like about being fat.  I know, I know, you’re saying there isn’t anything.  But there MUST be, because you chose to get fat to begin with.  Do you like to eat for entertainment?  Do you prefer watching TV shows to going for an evening walk?  Do you need to eat steadily to keep your energy levels up?  What GOOD things did you get from not watching what you eat or making yourself exercise? Face those issues square in the eye otherwise they’ll come back to sabotage you. It’s not enough to be tired of being fat, you’ve got to choose to be slender.  And you’re going to have to choose it over and over again, day after day, week after week.  Being a slender person means eating less and moving more than you currently do.  Do you choose to do that? Dally 244/171/165

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Welcome, Renee!  You’ve found a great place here full of understanding, advice (often conflicting, but you just have to choose what’s right for you) and support.  As you said, today is the first day of your change, and that’s how it has to start for anyone – you have to start at the beginning.  Best wishes to you! — M-C 401/376/?

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I really like that you listed out the things you don’t like about being fat.  I think you need to do another step, though: list out the things you DO like about being fat.  I know, I know, you’re saying there isn’t anything.  But there MUST be, because you chose to get fat to begin with.  Do you like to eat for entertainment?  Do you prefer watching TV shows to going for an evening walk?  Do you need to eat steadily to keep your energy levels up?  What GOOD things did you get from not watching what you eat or making yourself exercise?

I think it goes even beyond that. There are two sides to being fat : eating without restraints of any kind *and* having a thick fat layer. The fat layer also needs to be addressed for its positive sides, because there are some too. For myself, one of these aspects was to mark my ownership of my own body. It’s a complex story, but I ended up fighting for that ownership with my father. Growing fat was a way to show to the world that I was the owner of my body, to the point of being able to distort it to such extremes. Some things to think about : – being fat means you do not submit to fashion and stereotypical woman’s role in society. – being fat means people like/love you for yourself, not your good looks. – being fat makes you non-sexual. You can play with the boys (girls) without seduction becoming an issue. You don’t have to refuse or pick partners. – being fat makes you either invisible or very noticeable. Being slim means just being like everyone else. – being fat shows your inner pain on the outside. – the fat is a protective layer between yourself and the outside world. – being fat makes it easy to resist temptations, like cheating on your spouse. – being fat can be a way to repress your aggressivity (litterally, you can’t say nasty things when you have your mouth full of foods). – being fat makes it okay to be passive. Unless you have a clear physical problem, becoming fat was *wanted* by part of yourself (your unconscious), so it has a meaning. If you manage to decrypt that meaning and solve the issue without the need of the fat, you have no reason to stay fat. Face those issues square in the eye otherwise they’ll come back to sabotage you.

Either that, or problems that were taken care of by the fat will come to plague you. It’s not enough to be tired of being fat, you’ve got to choose to be slender.

Very true. I think one of the psychological root for the yo-yo phenomenon is that people get stuck in-between. When they’re fat, they hate being fat and go on a diet. When they reach their goal, they equally hate being slim and gain back. Yo-yo dieting is a way not to decide what you want to be.   And you’re going to have to choose it over and over again, day after day, week after week.  Being a slender person means eating less and moving more than you currently do.

It also means interacting with the rest of the world in a different manner. One exercise I read in a book (Fat is a Feminist Issue) makes some sense. Close your eyes and imagine a social situation (intimate, friends, work, whatever). Picture yourself fat, maybe even fatter than you are now. Try to identify your feelings, and how you react to the situation. Now, try to picture yourself slim. Notice what clothes you wear, how you feel about the situation, how you react. This can be a good tool to identify what values you invest into your fatness or slimness. Do you feel any positive thing associated with fatness? Any negative ones associated with slimness (agressivity, nakedness, people expecting stuff of you…)?

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TIRED OF:

Why haven’t you posted?

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Does anyone have experience with exercise induced atrial fibrillation. Her first two doctors would have her stop exercising and go in the hospital.  She refused.  Her third doctor wants to do an angiogram to rule out heart disease, but this means a day in the hospital, and the stress from this test would probably do more harm than good.  The drugs don’t seem to help any, and the beta blockers make her weak and dizzy.  Any advice?

I believe that your wife should go in the hospital and follow her doctor’s advice.  The heart is a vital organ, and taking care of it is better than being found dead on the side of the road.  Also, it would be useful to go the library and read last months consumer reports on nutritional-herbal remedies before going on that bandwagon.  With respect to coenzyme Q10, there are 107 articles on coenzyme Q10 in the medical literature to date. It is an antioxidant, something like Vitamin E.  The primary interest in it has been for congestive heart failure (end-stage weakening of the heart muscle).  It has never been tested as an antiarrhythmic, and no such studies are contemplated, as there is no conceivable scientific basis for doing so.  Of the research articles on coenzyme Q10 in the literature, only one was a controlled clinical trial, where it was given in patients just before open heart surgery to see if patients recovered sooner.  All other patient studies fit into the category of uncontrolled observations or "testimonials" funded by the manufacturers.  Current thinking is that like other substances, it should be tested properly for efficacy at strengthening a failing heart, but there is no current evidence that it is useful.  It is impossible to say what the risks to your wife are, since you did not provide her age, which is a very important variable.  But if three doctors gave you similar advice for further testing, and you are ignoring an abnormal Thallium stress test, she is taking a gamble that may have fatal consequences.  Also, keep in mind that atrial fibrillation is one of the major causes of stroke, and a 7% risk per year of stroke is a 98% risk over 14 years.

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Content in message below seems reasonable except for one point: 7% risk over 14 years is not a 98% risk over 14 years. It is 63.8%. I wonder why the example used 14 years. If the logic behind the 98% estimation is what I believe it to be, the probability of stroke in 15 years would be estimated to 7%*15= 105%, which should make one a bit sceptical as to the correctness of thinking. 63.8% is produced as follows: If the probability of stroke is 7% for each year, the probability is 93%=0.93 for no stroke each year, and the probability of no stroke in any one of 14 years is 0.93**14=0.3620=36.9%. The risk of at least one stroke in 14 years is then 100%-36.2%=63.8%. Bad enough, I would say. Jan Gunnar – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe that your wife should go in the hospital and follow her doctor’s advice.  The heart is a vital organ, and taking care of it is better than being found dead on the side of the road.  Also, it would be useful to go the library and read last months consumer reports on nutritional-herbal remedies before going on that bandwagon.  With respect to coenzyme Q10, there are 107 articles on coenzyme Q10 in the medical literature to date. It is an antioxidant, something like Vitamin E.  The primary interest in it has been for congestive heart failure (end-stage weakening of the heart muscle).  It has never been tested as an antiarrhythmic, and no such studies are contemplated, as there is no conceivable scientific basis for doing so.  Of the research articles on coenzyme Q10 in the literature, only one was a controlled clinical trial, where it was given in patients just before open heart surgery to see if patients recovered sooner.  All other patient studies fit into the category of uncontrolled observations or "testimonials" funded by the manufacturers.  Current thinking is that like other substances, it should be tested properly for efficacy at strengthening a failing heart, but there is no current evidence that it is useful.  It is impossible to say what the risks to your wife are, since you did not provide her age, which is a very important variable.  But if three doctors gave you similar advice for further testing, and you are ignoring an abnormal Thallium stress test, she is taking a gamble that may have fatal consequences.  Also, keep in mind that atrial fibrillation is one of the major causes of stroke, and a 7% risk per year of stroke is a 98% risk over 14 years.

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Does anyone have experience with exercise induced atrial fibrillation.  My wife was first diagnosed after being hospitalized for heat exhaustion after a 50 km trail run in 90-95 F heat and high humidity last September. Atrial fibrillation is when the top part of the heart (the atrium) beats 600-700 times per minute, effectively pumping no blood, and reducing cardiac efficiency by 20%.  During a-fib her resting pulse is 120-140 instead of 55-60 and she has difficulty exercising.  She has had several episodes since then lasting 1 to 8 days.  In each case, a-fib started after biking or running (but not walking, swimming, or weight lifting, where her heart rate is lower). A-fib is usually caused by coronary artery disease (for which her risk is low) or high thyroid activity (hers was tested — normal).  An article "Lone Atrial Fibrillation" in the Physician and Sportsmedicine (Aug. ‘91) describes 8 case histories in athletes where no physical cause was found. In some cases, a-fib is induced by alcohol, caffeine, or drinking cold water or ice cream after exercise.  That is not the case here. She has been to 3 doctors.  A thallium stress test showed reduced blood flow to the anterior apex (possibly a blocked coronary artery).  An echocardiogram showed mitral valve prolapse (a slight valve leak, usually not serious).  Either of these might be the cause, but probably nothing can be done.  She is taking atenolol (a beta blocker to lower heart rate and blood pressure), digoxin (digitalis) to lower heart rate, and aspirin to reduce the possibility of stroke.  The risk without blood thinners is 2-7% per year because blood can pool in the atrium and form clots.  She was prescribed coumadin (warfarin), a more powerful blood thinner, but this is risky because taking too much can cause uncontrolled bleeding. The dose would depend on the amount of vitamin K in her diet (green leafy vegetables and carrots) and have to be adjusted by regular blood tests. Coumadin reduces the risk of stroke by 60-80%. Her first two doctors would have her stop exercising and go in the hospital.  She refused.  Her third doctor wants to do an angiogram to rule out heart disease, but this means a day in the hospital, and the stress from this test would probably do more harm than good.  The drugs don’t seem to help any, and the beta blockers make her weak and dizzy.  Any advice?

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Does anyone have experience with exercise induced atrial fibrillation.  My wife was first diagnosed after being hospitalized for heat exhaustion

 She has had several episodes since then lasting 1 to 8 days.  In each case, a-fib started after biking or running (but not walking, swimming, or weight lifting, where her heart rate is lower). A-fib is usually caused by coronary artery disease (for which her risk is low) or high thyroid activity (hers was tested — normal).  An article "Lone Atrial Fibrillation" in the Physician and Sportsmedicine (Aug. ‘91) describes 8 case histories in athletes where no physical cause was found. In some cases, a-fib is induced by alcohol, caffeine, or drinking cold water or ice cream after exercise.  That is not the case here.

I also have exercise induced atrial fibrillation. The cardiologists don’t know what causes it in my case, but I may have figured it out, and they agree that I may be right as to the cause. CoQ10 is an enzyme manufactured by your body and it is stored in every muscle, but especially in the heart muscle. Sometime in your 30’s or 40’s, the amount of CoQ10 produced drops dramatically. Some researchers think this is a major cause of the aging process. Research shows that CoQ10 can be a factor in maintaining normal HR rhythm. I began taking 50mg/day during racing and training season, and my a-fib has all but gone away. Here’s what led me to trying CoQ10. I’ve been bike racing and training almost every year since I was 18. At the age of 33, I ended a 2-year layoff, but about 3 weeks after commencing training, I had my first a-fib incident. I was given Quinaglute and it went away in about 8 hours. After taking 3 days off, I started training again. About 3 weeks later, I got a-fib again. Quiniglute again, and no more symptoms for about 6 months. The following season, the exact pattern repeated itself, except now a-fib was also ocurring during every race for a period of a minute or so. I thought that my heart was somehow getting tired or something after 3 weeks of steady training. Now I think (know?) that my stores of CoQ10 were running low after 3 weeks and needed a few days to catch back up (refill). IMO, read up on CoQ10 (my cardiologist has been) and try some for a month or so. Those drugs you mentioned are bad news over the long term. CoQ10 is very safe. I recommend that you stick to high-quality sources like TwinLabs and buy it MO because it’s about 30 cents per 50mg capsule. CoQ10 has been used for many years in Japan, and it’s still the only place it is manufactured. The price of it has fallen dramatically in the last 5 years because of improved manufacturing methods, and U.S. heart docs are slowly becoming more aware of it. -Warren

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Kevin Young writes: Once in a while we(running friends) talk about our alternate lives and even this subject, but I do not know of even one that still takes a hit.  Once people take a serious view towards running, the body becomes not just a place holder, but a temple. As such, these two practices cease to coexist(oxymoronic).

Lighten up.   And as the alternate viewpoint, I know plenty of serious marathoners who smoke pot regularly.  Most of us treat running as one of our activities, not the one and only activity which overwhelms all others. — Bob Sarocka Lombard, IL

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Herb has good analgesic effects taken after a run. Stack it with aspirin (or willow bark tea). At one time it was thought that it improved running performance, but the reason for that is that its users were drinking that much less beer. Ancient Persian leader Hassan i Sabbah (whose cult consumed hashish and were known as the Hashashins or something like that) impressed his enemies with the devotion and fearlessness of his followers by commanding scores of them to jump off a cliff to their deaths, which they did with enthusiam. The observing enemy, suitably impressed, would usually capitulate at this point. A similar sense of awe is felt by couch potatoes observing the start of a marathon. Joe

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Kevin Young writes: Once in a while we(running friends) talk about our alternate lives and even this subject, but I do not know of even one that still takes a hit.  Once people take a serious view towards running, the body becomes not just a place holder, but a temple. As such, these two practices cease to coexist(oxymoronic). Lighten up.

There was a funny comic strip in the Sunday paper that went somewhere along the lines of this: If you consider your body a temple, and you don’t drink alcohol, does that make you a Shirley Temple? Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And as the alternate viewpoint, I know plenty of serious marathoners who smoke pot regularly.  Most of us treat running as one of our activities, not the one and only activity which overwhelms all others. — Bob Sarocka Lombard, IL

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My retort to Kevin Young and smoking pot. Once in a while we(running friends) talk about our alternate lives and even this subject, but I do not know of even one that still takes a hit.  Once people take a serious view towards running, the body becomes not just a place holder, but a temple. As such, these two practices cease to coexist(oxymoronic). Bob Sarocka responded Lighten up.   And as the alternate viewpoint, I know plenty of serious marathoners who smoke pot regularly.  Most of us treat running as one of our activities, not the one and only activity which overwhelms all others.

Did I say that running was the end all? No! I said our bodies are important, and until you can point me to some data points that says different, it is my choice. Humm, serious runners that smoke pot. In MY opinion the word seroius does fit in that sentence . And Gerard added: I’ve got to agree Bob, I know of quite a few runners that occasionally get high, but, while we’re on the subject of drugs, ALCOHOL, which, the last time I looked, is still a DRUG, is ingested quite often by many, many runners, why the double-standard?  Just because society has ordained alcohol as a "good" drug, that doesn’t mean it is not a documented performance inhibitor as I’m sure all drugs are.  But, yes, sometimes we need a release or an escape, and some turn to mood-altering substances, some don’t. It’s all in your choices.  

Now here is some good solid logic. I haven’t this argument since tenth grade in high school. They both suck and to imply that since one group does Alcohol it’s ok for the other to smoke pot – is ludicrous. You are correct, we all have a choice. If either want to discuss this further pls take this to Email. I don’t think the rest want to hear any more. I think I still have my Cheech and Chong Big Bamboo Album with the paper – can I mail the paper to either  of you. — Doug Freese  All opinions are mine. IBM Tele: 8-293-8098

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Bob, is this a requirement for the dupage mtp group?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And Gerard added: I’ve got to agree Bob, I know of quite a few runners that occasionally get high, but, while we’re on the subject of drugs, ALCOHOL, which, the last time I looked, is still a DRUG, is ingested quite often by many, many runners, why the double-standard?  Just because society has ordained alcohol as a "good" drug, that doesn’t mean it is not a documented performance inhibitor as I’m sure all drugs are.  But, yes, sometimes we need a release or an escape, and some turn to mood-altering substances, some don’t. It’s all in your choices.   Now here is some good solid logic. I haven’t this argument since tenth grade in high school. They both suck and to imply that since one group does Alcohol it’s ok for the other to smoke pot – is ludicrous. You are correct, we all have a choice. If either want to discuss this further pls take this to Email. I don’t think the rest want to hear any more. I think I still have my Cheech and Chong Big Bamboo Album with the paper – can I mail the paper to either  of you.

Doug, In your haste to voice your opinion, you didn’t read my post very accurately.   I WAS NOT condoning potsmoking, just pointing out the double standard that most people/runners employ when condemning potsmoking with a six-pack in hand.  I merely replied that I do know runners that do get high and runners that drink, and if you read my post you’ll see where I describe BOTH as performance inhibitors as basically all mood-altering drugs are.  I didn’t even get into the effects of caffeine either, gee, I hope you don’t drink coffee, because, it too, in the words of a real scholar, "sucks".  Next time, read, before you post, or maybe you should listen to your Cheech & Chong album and "chill" a little. Gerard *** The Running Man ***

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Who thinks smoking pot over the years doesn’t affect your running?  Noone likes to run right after smoking, but I’ll bet a lot of runners (in their 30’s and 40’s) still smoke marijuana regularly yet still run and race regularly.  I don’t think it hinders running!

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Kevin Young writes: Who thinks smoking pot over the years doesn’t affect your running?  Noone likes to run right after smoking, but I’ll bet a lot of runners (in their 30’s and 40’s) still smoke marijuana regularly yet still run and race regularly.  I don’t think it hinders running!

It’s your body. I doubt very much you will find anyone spending money to gather any data points on this subject. Once in a while we(running friends) talk about our alternate lives and even this subject, but I do not know of even one that still takes a hit.  Once people take a serious view towards running, the body becomes not just a place holder, but a temple. As such, these two practices cease to coexist(oxymoronic). Does it hinder running? Who knows. Does it help your running – I seriously doubt it. Why take the risk for a cheap high?            A view from the past, chance. — Doug Freese  All opinions are mine. IBM Tele: 8-293-8098

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kevin Young writes: Once in a while we(running friends) talk about our alternate lives and even this subject, but I do not know of even one that still takes a hit.  Once people take a serious view towards running, the body becomes not just a place holder, but a temple. As such, these two practices cease to coexist(oxymoronic). Lighten up.   And as the alternate viewpoint, I know plenty of serious marathoners who smoke pot regularly.  Most of us treat running as one of our activities, not the one and only activity which overwhelms all others. — Bob Sarocka Lombard, IL

I’ve got to agree Bob, I know of quite a few runners that occasionally get high, but, while we’re on the subject of drugs, ALCOHOL, which, the last time I looked, is still a DRUG, is ingested quite often by many, many runners, why the double-standard?  Just because society has ordained alcohol as a "good" drug, that doesn’t mean it is not a documented performance inhibitor as I’m sure all drugs are.  But, yes, sometimes we need a release or an escape, and some turn to mood-altering substances, some don’t. It’s all in your choices.   Enjoy running and have a happy holiday. Gerard *** The Running Man ***

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