Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mark, I’ve been on Atkins for 2-1/2 months (-30 lbs.) while taking Zocor, which is simvasatin. I’ve experienced no problems. BTW, after 6 weeks on Atkins, I had a lipid profile done. All my cholesterol levels were essentially unchanged (which were already very good) while triglycerides were in the normal range for the first time. I told my cardiologist that I was on a low-carb diet, and he had no problem with it. Cat Its my 1st time posting to this group so Hello to everyone. I need to loose about 40lbs to get to my ideal weight and was looking at possibly going on a lo carb diet such as atkins. My doctor recently put me on simvastatin to help control my cholesterol level. Has anybody any experience of taking simvastatin whilst on a lo carb diet. — Regards Mark

Thanks Cat I have decided to have a go at atkins and have just ordered the book from amazon — Regards Mark

Response:

Its my 1st time posting to this group so Hello to everyone. I need to loose about 40lbs to get to my ideal weight and was looking at possibly going on a lo carb diet such as atkins. My doctor recently put me on simvastatin to help control my cholesterol level. Has anybody any experience of taking simvastatin whilst on a lo carb diet. — Regards Mark

Response:

Mark, I’ve been on Atkins for 2-1/2 months (-30 lbs.) while taking Zocor, which is simvasatin. I’ve experienced no problems. BTW, after 6 weeks on Atkins, I had a lipid profile done. All my cholesterol levels were essentially unchanged (which were already very good) while triglycerides were in the normal range for the first time. I told my cardiologist that I was on a low-carb diet, and he had no problem with it. Cat

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Its my 1st time posting to this group so Hello to everyone. I need to loose about 40lbs to get to my ideal weight and was looking at possibly going on a lo carb diet such as atkins. My doctor recently put me on simvastatin to help control my cholesterol level. Has anybody any experience of taking simvastatin whilst on a lo carb diet. — Regards Mark

Response:

Question:

My container of ProFibe provides the following: Per serving: 50 Calories (not 50 grams of carbohydrate) Total Carbs: 7 grams (6 grams of which is Fiber) Protein:        4 grams Fat:           0.5 gram Thus, the product provides 1 effective carbohydrate gram per serving.

Are you sure? I understand that protein and carbs aren’t always exactly 4 calories/gram but if you subtract the 6g of fiber from the carb count that leaves half of the calories unaccounted for. I find it very hard to believe that the 4g protein and 1g carb are so far off of 4 cals/gram that they’d make up that much deficit. It makes a lot more sense that the fiber has already been subtracted and the total effective carb count is 7g. Here’s the webpage for ProFibe nutrition info. http://www.profibe.com/product.html

Response:

Are you sure? I understand that protein and carbs aren’t always exactly 4 calories/gram but if you subtract the 6g of fiber from the carb count that leaves half of the calories unaccounted for.

I’m not familiar with this particular product, but if the manufacturer compares it to the fiber in apples, it probably contains mostly soluble fiber.  And by FDA regulation, calories from soluble fiber *cannot* be deducted from the calorie count on the label.  Only calories from insoluble fiber can be deducted. Reb

Response:

I recently had to stop taking Zocor for my high cholesterol (statins give me very bad stomach pain) and switched to "Profibe," which is a high fiber drink. The fiber is water soluable and they say three doses per day is equal to eating a busshel of apples. The problem is that it has 50 carbs per serving and I need to drink it three times per day and rack up 150 carbs. But I keep reading that not all carbs are the same and would like to ask if people here think this will scuttle my Atkins diet when on maintenance and would it keep me out of ketosis when I need to get stricter, like just after the holidays Thanks

Pro_Fibe is an excellent fiber choice for a low carber on any of the various LC plans.   The effective carbohydrate count is so low that it isn’t worth counting.  And the benefits are well worth the carb count. The bushel of apples analogy is hype, but three scoops daily will give you about 21 grams of SOLUBLE fiber and it goes down way easier than psyllium. ~~~~~ Lee Rodgers The Lowcarb Retreat  http://www.lowcarb.org Mesage Board BBS  http://lowcarb.org/forums ~~~~~

Response:

As Chas said, ProFibe has 1g effective carb/serving, so you’re fine. << Thanks everyone. That really helps. I guess I didnt read the lable correctly ( the eyes go first). Also, I like having gas, so there is no problem Marc

Response:

Also, I like having gas, so there is no problem

Blaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha!!!

Response:

I recently had to stop taking Zocor for my high cholesterol (statins give me very bad stomach pain) and switched to "Profibe," which is a high fiber drink. The fiber is water soluable and they say three doses per day is equal to eating a busshel of apples. The problem is that it has 50 carbs per serving and I need to drink it three times per day and rack up 150 carbs. But I keep reading that not all carbs are the same and would like to ask if people here think this will scuttle my Atkins diet when on maintenance and would it keep me out of ketosis when I need to get stricter, like just after the holidays Thanks

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently had to stop taking Zocor for my high cholesterol (statins give me very bad stomach pain) and switched to "Profibe," which is a high fiber drink. The fiber is water soluable and they say three doses per day is equal to eating a busshel of apples. The problem is that it has 50 carbs per serving and I need to drink it three times per day and rack up 150 carbs. But I keep reading that not all carbs are the same and would like to ask if people here think this will scuttle my Atkins diet when on maintenance and would it keep me out of ketosis when I need to get stricter, like just after the holidays

I’m not sure where you’re getting 50g carbs from. I looked up the nutrition info and one serving has 50 calories not carbs. It has 7g carbs/serving. Hope this helps. — Jeri 265/210/120 Atkins since 11/5/01 "The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese."

Response:

I recently had to stop taking Zocor for my high cholesterol (statins give me very bad stomach pain) and switched to "Profibe," which is a high fiber drink. The fiber is water soluable and they say three doses per day is equal to eating a busshel of apples. The problem is that it has 50 carbs per serving and I need to drink it three times per day and rack up 150 carbs. But I keep reading that not all carbs are the same and would like to ask if people here think this will scuttle my Atkins diet when on maintenance and would it keep me out of ketosis when I need to get stricter, like just after the holidays Thanks

Subtract the fiber carbs from the total carbs to get the effective carbs per serving.  Fiber carbs don’t count, so you don’t have to worry about them, short of making sure you get some fiber a day to keep your bowel regular. — Jason Baugher 355/297/215 LC since 10/1/02 mini-goal: 290 by Feb. 1

Response:

My container of ProFibe provides the following: Per serving: 50 Calories (not 50 grams of carbohydrate) Total Carbs: 7 grams (6 grams of which is Fiber) Protein:        4 grams Fat:           0.5 gram Thus, the product provides 1 effective carbohydrate gram per serving.

I get extra fiber from wheat bran – a quarter-cup of the fine unprocessed bran has 7g carbs, of which 6g is fiber.  I think it’s all insoluble fiber, though, while the ProFibe is water- solube…they do different kinds of good things for your body, but neither kind of fiber is burned as fuel, so they don’t cause insulin spikes and you don’t need to limit fiber.  I like to make hot cereal with the wheat bran, and ground flax seed, and some protein powder or ground nuts. I recently had to stop taking Zocor for my high cholesterol (statins give me very bad stomach pain) and switched to "Profibe," which is a high fiber drink. The fiber is water soluable and they say three doses per day is equal to eating a busshel of apples.

Some people have trouble with gas when they increase their fiber intake very suddenly.  Drink lots of water.  If you still have a problem, you might need to start with 1 dose of ProFibe a day and increase gradually (if your cholesterol problem isn’t an emergency – ask your dr), or take anti-gas medicine. The problem is that it has 50 carbs per serving and I need to drink it three times per day and rack up 150 carbs. But I keep reading that not all carbs are the same and would like to ask if people here think this will scuttle my Atkins diet when on maintenance and would it keep me out of ketosis when I need to get stricter, like just after the holidays

You need to limit "effective carbs," not total carbs.   Effective carbs = total carbs – fiber. As Chas said, ProFibe has 1g effective carb/serving, so you’re fine. Adrian Turtle sidewalk radical

Response:

Question:

Hi, what would you call regular.(as far as testing) Our Dr does not order blood tests. I am on medicare and have private supple insurance. Kathe

Response:

Thanks… interesting site btw.  I’ve never looked thru it before… could be a real time-consumer. Janet Ok the link didn’t work but you can type in Lipitor and you will get the answer. I typed in Zocor but all statins are basiclly the same and grapefruit is contra indicated in all of them. I say Zocor in the same way you say bandaid Kathy Here is what I found on Medscape. And I forgot to tell you that you couldn’t eat or drink  grapefruit. It increases the drugs strength. It looks like you should not take the Zocor at least 24 hrs after you have taken grapfruit. here is the link:

http://www.medscape.com/druginfo/Monograph?id=1-6312&name=ZOCOR+ORAL&… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 56&type=food&DrugType=null&MenuID=DGI&ClassID=N&GeneralStatement=N Kathy Another website i visited had a FAQ.  One of the questions was about grapefruit.  This website recommended never eating graprefuit or drinking grapefruit juice while on Lipitor. Interesting… did it say what would happen?  I have a friend who has been taking lipitor for three years.  Coincidentally, that is the same length of time she has had a grapefruit allergy… is this a coincidence? Janet N.

Response:

This website recommended never eating graprefuit or drinking grapefruit juice while on Lipitor. Interesting… did it say what would happen?  I have a friend who has been

taking lipitor for three years.  Coincidentally, that is the same length of time she has had a grapefruit allergy… is this a coincidence? Janet N.

Janet, I still don’t know about any coincidence, but I found this explanation of grapefruit juice vs.some medications including Lipitor.  I found it on MedicineNet.com. Here’s the link: http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=14760&track=ef Joyce

Response:

I went there to learn all I could about soo many things. That site is my lifesaver. My sister is a is a nurse at Yuma Medical Center and uses that site for alot of things. Kathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks… interesting site btw.  I’ve never looked thru it before… could be a real time-consumer. Janet Ok the link didn’t work but you can type in Lipitor and you will get the answer. I typed in Zocor but all statins are basiclly the same and grapefruit is contra indicated in all of them. I say Zocor in the same way you say bandaid Kathy Here is what I found on Medscape. And I forgot to tell you that you couldn’t eat or drink  grapefruit. It increases the drugs strength. It looks like you should not take the Zocor at least 24 hrs after you have taken grapfruit. here is the link:

http://www.medscape.com/druginfo/Monograph?id=1-6312&name=ZOCOR+ORAL&… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 56&type=food&DrugType=null&MenuID=DGI&ClassID=N&GeneralStatement=N Kathy Another website i visited had a FAQ.  One of the questions was about grapefruit.  This website recommended never eating graprefuit or drinking grapefruit juice while on Lipitor. Interesting… did it say what would happen?  I have a friend who has been taking lipitor for three years.  Coincidentally, that is the same length of time she has had a grapefruit allergy… is this a coincidence? Janet N.

Response:

I know someone whose father just went into liver failure while on Lipitor — it was definitely related to the med. However, he had NOT been getting regular liver function testing done. I just wanted to remind everyone if you’re on a med that has possible liver side effects, please make sure to get your LFT’s done on a regular basis. Especially if you’re on a DMARD along with something like Lipitor this is that much more important! (that includes me! I am terrible about it since i have no insurance!)   Aim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My pcp has just prescribed Lipitor to reduce my borderline high cholesterol.  I am wondering if anyone here has experience with this medication, side effects, etc.  I have OA and hypothyroidism.  Am taking Synthroid and Cytomel.  High bp and taking dyazide and metoprolol.  And Xalatan for Glaucoma. Thanks, Joyce

Response:

I’ve dropped from readings around 220/240 to around 150.<

That’s impressive, Don. Both the cough and the muscle aches have been cited as side effects.  I don’t have a cough at present (quit smoking almost 5 years ago), but do already have muscle aches without Lipitor.  They are possibly OA related, Hypo related, or maybe because I am doing weight training. Thanks for your response.  I want to learn as much as I can about Lipitor before I add it to my menu. Sometimes, I think docs may be just a little tunnel-visioned, thinking only about what this medication might do for that problem, but not thinking of the entire organism. Joyce

Response:

I know someone whose father just went into liver failure while on Lipitor

Thanks, Aim.  As of my last exam, last week, I don’t seem to have a liver problem.  But I am still careful about adding yet another pill to my plate. So I am going slowly with this Lipitor.  My doc will mail me the prescription, probably has done so already, but there was no mail delivery today.  July 4. I am in the process of visiting the Lipitor website and any other websites Google brings up.  And yes, I will evaluate any information I get.   This group is where I come for the truth.  And I apologize for bothering the Arthritis group with this question. I just now realized I should check to see if there is an alt.support.cholesterol. Sometimes I wonder about the wisdom in the Jack Sprat nursery rhyme. Jack Sprat could eat no fat His wife could eat no lean And so betwixt them both They licked their platters clean. From childhood, I could not tolerate fat on any kind of meat.  But I liked meat.  And pizza.  And Chinese food. I never met a steak until I was 17.  I didn’t like vegetables until I grew up and had my own home.  Now I love salads but I still sneak off for a "hamburger frenzy."  All that means is that I get a bit of lean ground sirloin down at the shop and grill it, put it on a bun with a leaf of lettuce and maybe a bit of green onion.  A smear of salsa on the bottom and a smear of mayo on the top. Me, who used to serve up Bouef Bourguinon and Coq au Vin.  Not to worry, I have passed on my recipes to my sons, who are both passable cooks when they have time.  Younger son makes incredible cheesecake, which I love but don’t eat very much of.  It’s a copy of Junior’s Cheesecake, from Junior’s in Brooklyn. I guess you can see why I have borderline high cholesterol. All those in favor of Junior’s cheesecake, please jump up and down.  Okay, you can stop jumping now.  My computer is complaining about the earthquake. Joyce

Response:

I took Lipitor very successfully for cholesteral problems for a couple years but then started having extreme lower leg muscle pains.  Liver tests every six months and was ok but doctor took me off the Lipitor for one month.  The leg muscle pains went away so he switched me to Zocar which I have taken now for almost a year.  Still have to do the liver tests every 6 months.  He said I may develop the same muscle pains after awhile with Zocar also and we will just switch back and forth between them as necessary as long as the liver function is ok. — DeLores Wilson Hillsboro, OR

Response:

If you have good insurance you may want to ask the Dr to have a blood test for the Berkley Heart Lab. It’s spendy 600.00 but if your ldl is high due to genetics it’s good to know. Duh yes I know it’s Lipitor you are to take.  I would go ahead and take it. Alot of people think that there is no real proof that high Cholesterol and Heart disease are realated but after the year Dale just had with stroke and heart attack I wouldn’t risk it. As everyone else said just make sure and followup on the symptoms and get the liver functions. Kathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So your bad cholesterol is high? or just the total number? Total number is 230.  LDL is 154.  HDL is 38.  Part of the problem is that it just seems to stay this way, no matter what I do.  Doc would like me to get it lower. Well some of the side effects are dry cough,joint and muscle pain. If you have RA the symptoms feel alot the same.< No RA.  Just OA.  But I still have some joint and muscle aches.  Hip replacement 2-1/2 years ago.  Dale took Zocor for awhile he stopped when the muscle and joint pain became bad. The Dr upped his niacin to 2000 mgs per day. we will see what his ldl is in 3 mos if it hasn’t gone down then they will try another statin. Oatmeal,oatmeal oatmeal. eat it every morning for breakfast, try the new butter spreads take control.< Fortunately, I like oatmeal…the way I make it.  In the microwave with chopped apple mixed in.  It’s like the instant Quaker stuff, but much better. Dales cholesterol is inherited, if yours is borderline high, diet and excersise may be all you need to control it.< I have no information at all about what diseases or propensities I might have inherited. Yes, I’ve been trying diet and exercise.  Cheating on the diet but never on the exercise.  Twice a week, water exercises.  And just introduced weight training, with small weights to start, then increasing.  I’ll try to do better on the diet.  Summer’s a good time to diet.  I love fruits and veggies. don’t stop taking zocor try including diet and exersise then see what happens next dr visit.< I don’t take Zocor.  Just had a doc visit last week.  That’s what prompted the Lipitor.  Next visit in 6 months. Remember , doe is also aka watchman.< Yes, I know.  I had an awful dust up with him last year.  One part of his post is signed "Tom, who loves ya."  Sure, honey. Kathy Thanks, Kathy.  I’m going to take my time about adding Lipitor.  More exercise, better dieting.  See what happens. Joyce

Response:

try sci.med.cardiology. they talk about it alot there. but they sometimes get crabby with reapeat questions. So do a google search and if your question isn’t answered there are a couple of Dr.s who answer questions regularly. Kathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know someone whose father just went into liver failure while on Lipitor Thanks, Aim.  As of my last exam, last week, I don’t seem to have a liver problem.  But I am still careful about adding yet another pill to my plate. So I am going slowly with this Lipitor.  My doc will mail me the prescription, probably has done so already, but there was no mail delivery today.  July 4. I am in the process of visiting the Lipitor website and any other websites Google brings up.  And yes, I will evaluate any information I get. This group is where I come for the truth.  And I apologize for bothering the Arthritis group with this question. I just now realized I should check to see if there is an alt.support.cholesterol. Sometimes I wonder about the wisdom in the Jack Sprat nursery rhyme. Jack Sprat could eat no fat His wife could eat no lean And so betwixt them both They licked their platters clean. From childhood, I could not tolerate fat on any kind of meat.  But I liked meat.  And pizza.  And Chinese food. I never met a steak until I was 17. I didn’t like vegetables until I grew up and had my own home.  Now I love salads but I still sneak off for a "hamburger frenzy."  All that means is that I get a bit of lean ground sirloin down at the shop and grill it, put it on a bun with a leaf of lettuce and maybe a bit of green onion.  A smear of salsa on the bottom and a smear of mayo on the top. Me, who used to serve up Bouef Bourguinon and Coq au Vin.  Not to worry, I have passed on my recipes to my sons, who are both passable cooks when they have time.  Younger son makes incredible cheesecake, which I love but don’t eat very much of.  It’s a copy of Junior’s Cheesecake, from Junior’s in Brooklyn. I guess you can see why I have borderline high cholesterol. All those in favor of Junior’s cheesecake, please jump up and down.  Okay, you can stop jumping now.  My computer is complaining about the earthquake. Joyce

Response:

Ok the link didn’t work but you can type in Lipitor and you will get the answer. I typed in Zocor but all statins are basiclly the same and grapefruit is contra indicated in all of them. I say Zocor in the same way you say bandaid Kathy Here is what I found on Medscape. And I forgot to tell you that you couldn’t eat or drink  grapefruit. It increases the drugs strength. It looks like you should not take the Zocor at least 24 hrs after you have taken grapfruit. here is the link:

http://www.medscape.com/druginfo/Monograph?id=1-6312&name=ZOCOR+ORAL&… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 56&type=food&DrugType=null&MenuID=DGI&ClassID=N&GeneralStatement=N Kathy Another website i visited had a FAQ.  One of the questions was about grapefruit.  This website recommended never eating graprefuit or drinking grapefruit juice while on Lipitor. Interesting… did it say what would happen?  I have a friend who has been taking lipitor for three years.  Coincidentally, that is the same length of time she has had a grapefruit allergy… is this a coincidence? Janet N.

Response:

Here is what I found on Medscape. And I forgot to tell you that you couldn’t eat or drink  grapefruit. It increases the drugs strength. It looks like you should not take the Zocor at least 24 hrs after you have taken grapfruit. here is the link: http://www.medscape.com/druginfo/Monograph?id=1-6312&name=ZOCOR+ORAL&… 56&type=food&DrugType=null&MenuID=DGI&ClassID=N&GeneralStatement=N Kathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another website i visited had a FAQ.  One of the questions was about grapefruit.  This website recommended never eating graprefuit or drinking grapefruit juice while on Lipitor. Interesting… did it say what would happen?  I have a friend who has been taking lipitor for three years.  Coincidentally, that is the same length of time she has had a grapefruit allergy… is this a coincidence? Janet N.

Response:

Joyce, Good luck with the Lipitor.  Hope it works wonders for you!!! Donna G

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I wrote the following a few days ago: I am wondering if anyone here has experience with this medication, side effects, etc.< Thanks to all of you who responded to my question, above.  I went ahead and got the Lipitor prescription filled.  It comes with a warning label on it:  "Do not eat grapefruit or drink grapefruit juice within 2-4 hours of taking this medication." Another website i visited had a FAQ.  One of the questions was about grapefruit.  This website recommended never eating graprefuit or drinking grapefruit juice while on Lipitor. Well, I can live with that.  But I’m not going to start the Lipitor until I finish my large container of grapefruit juice, which will be in about 2 days. In the meantime, I will be toning up my diet and working with my weights, and doing water exercises. I will also be going to see Noel Coward’s "Private Lives" on Broadway sometime in August.  One of the many pleasures of living in NYC. Why did I think life would be easier after I retired?  Never mind.  I think I know the answer. This is a very nice joint.  Thanks again. Joyce

Hi Joyce,   What you have found out about grapefruit is true with many medications.  Your comment on retirement took me two years too sort out. LOLOL  I have learned to smile at the rush other people apply to their daily lives.  Yes, this is one of the better joints. LOL Harv

Response:

Another website i visited had a FAQ.  One of the questions was about grapefruit.  This website recommended never eating graprefuit or drinking grapefruit juice while on Lipitor.

Interesting… did it say what would happen?  I have a friend who has been taking lipitor for three years.  Coincidentally, that is the same length of time she has had a grapefruit allergy… is this a coincidence? Janet N.

Response:

Grapefruit juice is quite acid and can cause a lot of medication to dissolve before it gets to the intended point in the system.  You should really never take it WITH any medication. I read at one time that many hospitals no longer serve grapefruit juice as it can cause so many problems.  (And hospitals aren’t very good at timing on meds are they?) I enjoy grapefruit juice occasionally, but try to keep it several hours away from any medication. Jo

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I wrote the following a few days ago: I am wondering if anyone here has experience with this medication, side effects, etc.< Thanks to all of you who responded to my question, above.  I went ahead and got the Lipitor prescription filled.  It comes with a warning label on it: "Do not eat grapefruit or drink grapefruit juice within 2-4 hours of taking this medication." Another website i visited had a FAQ.  One of the questions was about grapefruit.  This website recommended never eating graprefuit or drinking grapefruit juice while on Lipitor. Well, I can live with that.  But I’m not going to start the Lipitor until I finish my large container of grapefruit juice, which will be in about 2 days. In the meantime, I will be toning up my diet and working with my weights, and doing water exercises. I will also be going to see Noel Coward’s "Private Lives" on Broadway sometime in August.  One of the many pleasures of living in NYC. Why did I think life would be easier after I retired?  Never mind.  I think I know the answer. This is a very nice joint.  Thanks again. Joyce

Response:

My pcp has just prescribed Lipitor to reduce my borderline high cholesterol.  I am wondering if anyone here has experience with this medication, side effects, etc.  I have OA and hypothyroidism.  Am taking Synthroid and Cytomel.  High bp and taking dyazide and metoprolol.  And Xalatan for Glaucoma. Thanks, Joyce

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My pcp has just prescribed Lipitor to reduce my borderline high cholesterol. I am wondering if anyone here has experience with this medication, side effects, etc.  I have OA and hypothyroidism.  Am taking Synthroid and Cytomel.  High bp and taking dyazide and metoprolol.  And Xalatan for Glaucoma. Thanks, Joyce

There is a problem more and more doctors are beginning to understand. This is elevated iron levels in the body. http://www.irondisorders.org http://www.ironoverload.org One common symptom of iron excess is hypothyroidism. Iron affects the endocrine system. They are treating arthritis with iron chelators / binders of iron which remove iron from the body. They are also using antioxidants. Antioxidants are destroyed by iron. Iron ‘rusts’ / oxidizes . A low iron diet / vegetarian diet has been shown to be of benefit in both those with cholesterol problems and also arthritis. Vegetarian diet is very high in antioxidants. A very recent study has shown iron reduction therapy .. phlebotomy / venesection / blood donation has a very postive effect on the cholesterol profile. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus was a vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

Response:

My pcp has just prescribed Lipitor to reduce my borderline high cholesterol.  I am wondering if anyone here has experience with this medication, side effects, etc.  I have OA and hypothyroidism.  Am taking Synthroid and Cytomel.  High bp and taking dyazide and metoprolol.  And Xalatan for Glaucoma. Thanks, Joyce

I know nothing about the side effects, but i can tell you Lipitor has worked well for my brother.  As a long-standing Type 1 diabetic, his cholesterol was exremely high 15 years ago.  His diet went from low-fat to extemely low fat and he kicked up his exercise even higher.  Got it down some, but it was still well over 200.  Then he finally go some health insurance with Rx coverage and was able to go on Lipitor.  Cholesterol is finally under 200.   Still has to really watch his diet of course, but he’s been able to relax some about it all. — Nann cut the Gator cheer to email me Not all who wander are lost — bumper sticker

Response:

I know nothing about the side effects, but i can tell you Lipitor has worked

well for my brother.   Thanks, Nann.  It’s very helpful to hear from you and the others here.  Every little bit of info helps and knowing how a new drug works on real people is the best kind of info. I trust my doctor implicitly.  I’ve been seeing him for more than 20 years.  He never fails to refer me to a specialist when I need that kind of attention. And he is an endocrinologist himself, which is just fine because I have hypothyroidism.   But when his advice is borne out by people who are actually using the medication he prescribes, then I feel doubly safe. Joyce

Response:

I wrote the following a few days ago: I am wondering if anyone here has experience with this medication, side

effects, etc.< Thanks to all of you who responded to my question, above.  I went ahead and got the Lipitor prescription filled.  It comes with a warning label on it:  "Do not eat grapefruit or drink grapefruit juice within 2-4 hours of taking this medication." Another website i visited had a FAQ.  One of the questions was about grapefruit.  This website recommended never eating graprefuit or drinking grapefruit juice while on Lipitor. Well, I can live with that.  But I’m not going to start the Lipitor until I finish my large container of grapefruit juice, which will be in about 2 days. In the meantime, I will be toning up my diet and working with my weights, and doing water exercises. I will also be going to see Noel Coward’s "Private Lives" on Broadway sometime in August.  One of the many pleasures of living in NYC. Why did I think life would be easier after I retired?  Never mind.  I think I know the answer. This is a very nice joint.  Thanks again. Joyce

Response:

It seems to me I heard somewhere that JOYHTON wrote in article My pcp has just prescribed Lipitor to reduce my borderline high cholesterol.  I am wondering if anyone here has experience with this medication, side effects, etc.  I have OA and hypothyroidism.  Am taking Synthroid and Cytomel.  High bp and taking dyazide and metoprolol.  And Xalatan for Glaucoma.

I’ve been on 40mg Lipitor for about three years, and it’s done wonders for my family-heirloom high cholesterol.  Most men of my father’s generation died of heart problems, and two of my three surviving sibs (the oldest died of a heart attack in his 40s) are on cholesterol medication–the other probably should be but AFAIK hasn’t gotten himself to a doctor yet.  I’ve dropped from readings around 220/240 to around 150. The two side effects that may possibly be affecting me are an intermittent dry hacking cough, which may also be allergy related, and tired muscles in the legs, which may be age and activity related.  I’ve been a runner for over twenty years, and I never had a problem running or walking a golf course that I could really relate to the Lipitor and not to other factors.  Now Atenolol, my new blood pressure medication, is a different matter–it’s almost impossible to run when I’ve just taken my full dose (reduced to half dose – 12.5mg – for now) because it depresses the heart rate and leaves the muscles starved for oxygen. — Don

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Joyce, My daughter took this for a while.  It gave her heartburn and muscle pain. Muscle pain is the common side effect of this class of drugs.  Just keep this in mind.  She has gone through several of these drugs and finally is doing ok on Lescol.  If Lipitor has side effects try something else. debbie m. http://www.angelfire.com/ga2/angels1/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My pcp has just prescribed Lipitor to reduce my borderline high cholesterol.  I am wondering if anyone here has experience with this medication, side effects, etc.  I have OA and hypothyroidism.  Am taking Synthroid and Cytomel. High bp and taking dyazide and metoprolol.  And Xalatan for Glaucoma. Thanks, Joyce

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So your bad cholesterol is high? or just the total number? Well some of the side effects are dry cough,joint and muscle pain. If you have RA the symptoms feel alot the same. Dale took Zocor for awhile he stopped when the muscle and joint pain became bad. The Dr upped his niacin to 2000 mgs per day. we will see what his ldl is in 3 mos if it hasn’t gone down then they will try another statin. Oatmeal,oatmeal oatmeal. eat it every morning for breakfast, try the new butter spreads take control, Dales cholesterol is inherited, if yours is borderline high, diet and excersise may be all you need to control it. don’t stop taking zocor try including diet and exersise then see what happens next dr visit. Remember , doe is also aka watchman. Kathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My pcp has just prescribed Lipitor to reduce my borderline high cholesterol.  I am wondering if anyone here has experience with this medication, side effects, etc.  I have OA and hypothyroidism.  Am taking Synthroid and Cytomel. High bp and taking dyazide and metoprolol.  And Xalatan for Glaucoma. Thanks, Joyce

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So your bad cholesterol is high? or just the total number?

Total number is 230.  LDL is 154.  HDL is 38.  Part of the problem is that it just seems to stay this way, no matter what I do.  Doc would like me to get it lower. Well some of the side effects are dry cough,joint and muscle pain. If you have

RA the symptoms feel alot the same.< No RA.  Just OA.  But I still have some joint and muscle aches.  Hip replacement 2-1/2 years ago.  Dale took Zocor for awhile he stopped when the muscle and joint pain became bad. The Dr upped his niacin to 2000 mgs per day. we will see what his ldl is in 3 mos if it hasn’t gone down then they will try another statin. Oatmeal,oatmeal oatmeal. eat it every morning for breakfast, try the new

butter spreads take control.< Fortunately, I like oatmeal…the way I make it.  In the microwave with chopped apple mixed in.  It’s like the instant Quaker stuff, but much better. Dales cholesterol is inherited, if yours is borderline high, diet and

excersise may be all you need to control it.< I have no information at all about what diseases or propensities I might have inherited. Yes, I’ve been trying diet and exercise.  Cheating on the diet but never on the exercise.  Twice a week, water exercises.  And just introduced weight training, with small weights to start, then increasing.  I’ll try to do better on the diet.  Summer’s a good time to diet.  I love fruits and veggies. don’t stop taking zocor try including diet and exersise then see what happens

next dr visit.< I don’t take Zocor.  Just had a doc visit last week.  That’s what prompted the Lipitor.  Next visit in 6 months. Remember , doe is also aka watchman.<

Yes, I know.  I had an awful dust up with him last year.  One part of his post is signed "Tom, who loves ya."  Sure, honey.   Kathy

Thanks, Kathy.  I’m going to take my time about adding Lipitor.  More exercise, better dieting.  See what happens. Joyce

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Question:

That be me!  I am doing all of the above.  Hope the numbers change. .  Anything over 4:1 is considered high risk.

– Dan Help Find a Cure http://www.bensonpolymeric.com/folding/start.html

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I just calculated my ratio from my last test and it’s 2.45:1.  I think I’ll quit blaming my Dad for the RA and thank him for this.  Thanks for the ratios Walt I had never heard what was optimal. cooly Coolman,  Don’t blame you dad or your mother for having what you have. The big They do not know what causes what we have. Harv

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression Harv, it was always kind of family joke.  Although I have had long talks with my kids about what to watch for as they get older. cooly — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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Coolman,  Don’t blame you dad or your mother for having what you have. The big They do not know what causes what we have. Harv Sorry if I gave the wrong impression Harv, it was always kind of family joke.  Although I have had long talks with my kids about what to watch for as they get older. cooly

Now I will share something with you that put me in a funk for 6 months. I, like you, watch my 4 grown adults like a hawk for signs of what I have.  The truth is that I am pretty close to all my children except for my oldest daughter and we have toooo much in common about soooo many things that we self destruct if there is too much contact.  She started to have morning stiffness and a small amount of swelling in different places.  I was my own worst enemy.  There was nothing I could do or say that would not get the "wall" in an instant. There was nothing I could say that would not be construed as being judgmental, interfering, being bossy,,ect,,ect,, or bring it on lets fight.     What would a person do in this situation???  I can only tell you what I did.   I went over to her home and waited for her to get there. She was so supprised to see me sitting there that she, her husband and I had a great time and a few drinks for about 2 hours while we caught up on everything.  At that point with tears in my eyes, I told her and her husband of my fears with her symptoms.  Thank God, two months later her problems ended up being something else and she is still in the process of taking care of it.   So it goes. Harv

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – others reading the thread, the ideal ratio of LDL (bad) to HDL (good) is 2.5:1.  Anything over 4:1 is considered high risk. Cholesterol levels, including the ratio, are primarily genetically set. They can be influenced modestly by behavioral interventions, but this severe a problem always requires medications. Walt I just calculated my ratio from my last test and it’s 2.45:1.  I think I’ll quit blaming my Dad for the RA and thank him for this.  Thanks for the ratios Walt I had never heard what was optimal. cooly

Coolman,  Don’t blame you dad or your mother for having what you have. The big They do not know what causes what we have. Harv

Response:

others reading the thread, the ideal ratio of LDL (bad) to HDL (good) is 2.5:1.  Anything over 4:1 is considered high risk. Cholesterol levels, including the ratio, are primarily genetically set. They can be influenced modestly by behavioral interventions, but this severe a problem always requires medications. Walt

I just calculated my ratio from my last test and it’s 2.45:1.  I think I’ll quit blaming my Dad for the RA and thank him for this.  Thanks for the ratios Walt I had never heard what was optimal. cooly — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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However, RA does increase the amount of fibrin (byproduct of the inflammatory process) in the blood stream, and our medications increase the amount of homocysteine (amino acid that acts as a glue) in the blood as well.

So .. since tocopherol / vitamin E is known to decrease fibrin .. and since a vegetarian diet is KNOWN to decrease homocysteine .. And since medications .. TARGET .. TNF-alpha .. and since tocopherol TARGETS / reduces TNF-alpha .. Then a vegetarian diet .. and tocopherol might be a good idea? And while we are at it .. since plasmapheresis .. is being thrown into the mix .. as an effective adjunct to medication .. one might even look into the effects of bloodletting since it too lowers the fibrin in the blood?    Med J Aust 1979 Aug 25;2(4):167-73 Plasma exchange: a selective form of blood-letting.     Isbister JP    The technique of, and indications for, plasma exchange are presented.    This selective form of plasma removal has re-established    "blood-letting" in medical therapeutics on a scientific basis. It is    the most appropriate therapy when hyperviscosity or haemostatic    failure complicate immunoproliferative disease. Plasma exchange is    also a significant advance in the management of fulminant forms of    autoimmune disease, but in many other conditions it must be regarded    as experimental.    PMID: 160005, UI: 80077428    Save the above report in [Macintosh] [Text] format    Order documents on this page through Loansome Doc    Agents Actions Suppl 1980;7:62-5 Plasma exchange (plasmapheresis).     Hughes GR    Plasma exchange (plasmapheresis), whereby 1-4 litres of patients’    plasma are exchanged for a plasma substitute, has a therapeutic appeal    dating back to medieval times. This blunderbuss therapy, removing as    it does inflammatory mediators such as fibrin split products and    complement breakdown products, immune complexes, antibodies, drugs and    antigens, has been most clearly shown to have therapeutic effect in    antibody-mediated diseases such as Goodpastures syndrome and    Myasthenia Gravis. In chronic rheumatic diseases, such as systemic    lupus erythematosus (SLE) and rheumatoid arthritis (RA), claims for    improvement have, in the main, been based on insufficient data. More    recently, a number of small, uncontrolled trials have suggested that    the vasculitis and arthritis of these two diseases is improved by    plasmapheresis. Of clinical interest has been the repeated observation    that whereas improvement in antibody titres (e.g. DNA antibodies) is    transient, clinical improvement, and a lowering of immune complex    titres often last for days or even weeks. A recent observation may    explain, in part, this finding. Reticulo-endothelial (RES) function,    as measured by disappearance rates of heat-damaged red blood cells, is    frequently impaired in SLE and RA. Plasmapheresis appears to result in    improved RES function, possibly by a ‘desaturating’ effect on    circulating and RES-bound immune complexes.    PMID: 6941688, UI: 81229151    Save the above report in [Macintosh] [Text] format    Order documents on this page through Loansome Doc    Ter Arkh 1984;56(6):19-23 [Plasmapheresis in the treatment of diseases caused by immunologic pathology.]    [Article in Russian]     Gorodetskii VM, Ryzhko VV    The authors discuss the results of the use of therapeutic    plasmapheresis (290 sessions) in 56 patients with immunity-mediated    diseases: hemorrhagic vasculitis, Goodpasture’s syndrome, multiple    sclerosis, Guillain-Barre’s syndrome, rheumatoid arthritis, partial    red cell aplasia, etc. Demonstrate the possibilities of the attainment    of positive results provided plasmapheresis is included into the    complex of therapeutic measures. Discuss the indications, criteria of    the efficacy, and contraindications to plasmapheresis administration.    Infer that the clinical data play the decisive role in the appraisal    of the plasmapheresis efficacy. Recommend that intermittent    plasmapheresis be widely used for the treatment of internal diseases.    PMID: 6236574, UI: 84300808    Save the above report in [Macintosh] [Text] format    Order documents on this page through Loansome Doc Both fibrin and homocysteine are constituents of arterial plaque.  When you add the high prevalence of hypertension in RA patients, the risk for heart disease is significantly increased.

And when it is shown bloodletting / iron depletion lowers blood pressure .. and is being closely studied in it’s role in artherosclerosis due to it’s oxidation / rusting of lipids .. ? Who loves ya. Tom Walt very curious how many with RA also have high cholesterol. i have high cholesterol which doesn’t come down even ith an extremely stict diet with NO fats, etc. some people’s liver just produces excess cholesterol , and i am one of them. even after the heart surgery when the cholesterol level should have been down it wasn’t. i take zocor, 80 mg. daily. ad i might add, it is the maximum dosage, and mylevel is still higher than it should be. i read recently in an arthritis magazine that RA can  cause high cholesterol. my cardiologist said no. but i still think it seems to make sense. so out of curiousity, i think this would be an interesting poll! have a great day!  sue  :)

– Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

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JD has been sharing some of Donnah’s stash…. quack – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My cholesterol levels, like my BP readings are the envy of my family and friends. (Not to mention my stunning good looks, natural charm, engaging personality and lively wit) — JDShine

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LOLOLOLOLOL  When you are right,,,,,,you are right. LOLOLOL Harv Ps  quack – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – JD has been sharing some of Donnah’s stash…. quack My cholesterol levels, like my BP readings are the envy of my family and friends. (Not to mention my stunning good looks, natural charm, engaging personality and lively wit) — JDShine

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I sent my oldest son to the Dr to get his cholesterol checked adv him to tell the Dr that we have familial hypercholestemia. he called last night good cholesterol 20 bad 170 shit he is 23. I will talk to dales cardiologist to get a plan of action for him too. good thing is his bp is still ok. Kathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My MIL was just such a case. Something about the number 400 being in control for her. She past that on to her son but he is being a very good boy. He went to WW in his mid 40’s after his blood work came back pushing 300. Lost weight, learned that french fries are not your friend, and it is down in the normal range again without meds. Good boy. Duckie — Removing the duck to email me privately won’t help a bit now. hehehe (.) I fix what I can, and accept what I can’t. http://home.attbi.com/~maroldc/Paku/paku.html ave high cholesterol which doesn’t come down even ith an extremely stict diet with NO fats, etc. some people’s liver just produces excess cholesterol I read somewhere a few years ago, the best way to control your cholesterol is to choose your parents carefully.  LOL  I take that to mean, some people just have elevated cholesterol, no matter what they do. Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’.  We’re all in this together."  Red Green

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I sent my oldest son to the Dr to get his cholesterol checked adv him to tell the Dr that we have familial hypercholestemia. he called last night good cholesterol 20 bad 170 shit he is 23. I will talk to dales cardiologist to get a plan of action for him too. good thing is his bp is still ok. Kathy

He can increase the amount of aerobic exercise he does, incorporate relaxation exercises into his day, limit saturated fat intake, substitute monounsaturated fats, make sure he gets enough folic acid, and add soluble fiber.  However, the behavioral interventions alone will not overcome that huge a ratio (8.5:1).  He will need to be on a cholesterol lowering drug Kathy.  The rest of your kids need to be checked too, no matter what their age. FYI, for others reading the thread, the ideal ratio of LDL (bad) to HDL (good) is 2.5:1.  Anything over 4:1 is considered high risk. Cholesterol levels, including the ratio, are primarily genetically set. They can be influenced modestly by behavioral interventions, but this severe a problem always requires medications. Walt

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Cholesterol is primarily genetically set, with behaviors having only a modest influence.  I was lucky enough to get my father’s genes on this one.  My last test showed a total of 190, with an HDL of 40 and an LDL of 112 – very near the ideal ratio.  RA has had no affect on my levels. However, RA does increase the amount of fibrin (byproduct of the inflammatory process) in the blood stream, and our medications increase the amount of homocysteine (amino acid that acts as a glue) in the blood as well.  Both fibrin and homocysteine are constituents of arterial plaque.  When you add the high prevalence of hypertension in RA patients, the risk for heart disease is significantly increased. Walt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – very curious how many with RA also have high cholesterol. i have high cholesterol which doesn’t come down even ith an extremely stict diet with NO fats, etc. some people’s liver just produces excess cholesterol , and i am one of them. even after the heart surgery when the cholesterol level should have been down it wasn’t. i take zocor, 80 mg. daily. ad i might add, it is the maximum dosage, and mylevel is still higher than it should be. i read recently in an arthritis magazine that RA can  cause high cholesterol. my cardiologist said no. but i still think it seems to make sense. so out of curiousity, i think this would be an interesting poll! have a great day!  sue  :)

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My cholesterol levels, like my BP readings are the envy of my family and friends. (Not to mention my stunning good looks, natural charm, engaging personality and lively wit) — JDShine

And humility, don’t forget humility. Kelly C.;o)

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My cholesterol is always normal or low.  Plaquinel has a side effect of lowering cholesterol, probably not nearly as much a zocor, but it does help. — MZ

I understand Enbrel does too. Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’.  We’re all in this together."  Red Green

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My cholesterol levels, like my BP readings are the envy of my family and friends. (Not to mention my stunning good looks, natural charm, engaging personality and lively wit)

Not a doubt in my mind, JD.  Not a doubt.(bg) Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’.  We’re all in this together."  Red Green

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My MIL was just such a case. Something about the number 400 being in control for her. She past that on to her son but he is being a very good boy. He went to WW in his mid 40’s after his blood work came back pushing 300. Lost weight, learned that french fries are not your friend, and it is down in the normal range again without meds. Good boy. Duckie — Removing the duck to email me privately won’t help a bit now. hehehe (.) I fix what I can, and accept what I can’t. http://home.attbi.com/~maroldc/Paku/paku.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ave high cholesterol which doesn’t come down even ith an extremely stict diet with NO fats, etc. some people’s liver just produces excess cholesterol I read somewhere a few years ago, the best way to control your cholesterol is to choose your parents carefully.  LOL  I take that to mean, some people just have elevated cholesterol, no matter what they do. Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’.  We’re all in this together."  Red Green

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very curious how many with RA also have high cholesterol.

My dad had RA, I have PA – the only one in the family with cholesterol problems is my brother, his goes hand in hand with his Type 1 diabetes. — Nann cut the Gator cheer to email me I like nonsense; it wakes up the brain cells. – Dr Seuss

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i read recently in an arthritis magazine that RA can  cause high cholesterol. my cardiologist said no. but i still think it seems to make sense. so out of curiousity, i think this would be an interesting poll! have a great day!  sue  :)

My cholesterol is always normal or low.  Plaquinel has a side effect of lowering cholesterol, probably not nearly as much a zocor, but it does help. — MZ — Fai Pisinisi Kuluku! Aua le faataua ni au oloa!  Noni Juice End vindictive business practices boycott Noni juice.

Response:

very curious how many with RA also have high cholesterol. i have high cholesterol which doesn’t come down even ith an extremely stict diet with NO fats, etc. some people’s liver just produces excess cholesterol , and i am one of them. even after the heart surgery when the cholesterol level should have been down it wasn’t. i take zocor, 80 mg. daily. ad i might add, it is the maximum dosage, and mylevel is still higher than it should be. i read recently in an arthritis magazine that RA can  cause high cholesterol. my cardiologist said no. but i still think it seems to make sense. so out of curiousity, i think this would be an interesting poll! have a great day!  sue  :)

My cholesterol levels, like my BP readings are the envy of my family and friends. (Not to mention my stunning good looks, natural charm, engaging personality and lively wit) — JDShine

Response:

low — always low Duckie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – very curious how many with RA also have high cholesterol. i

Response:

very curious how many with RA also have high cholesterol. i have high cholesterol which doesn’t come down even ith an extremely stict diet with NO fats, etc. some people’s liver just produces excess cholesterol , and i am one of them. even after the heart surgery when the cholesterol level should have been down it wasn’t. i take zocor, 80 mg. daily. ad i might add, it is the maximum dosage, and mylevel is still higher than it should be. i read recently in an arthritis magazine that RA can  cause high cholesterol. my cardiologist said no. but i still think it seems to make sense. so out of curiousity, i think this would be an interesting poll! have a great day!  sue  :)

Count me in for High Cholesterol too Sue, or should I say it was high but I have managed to get it down through carefully screening out as much of the dairy products as possible and eliminating almost all salt from my diet. I also take Zocor but at 20mgs daily. Did take Tildium but that has been dropped by my cardiologist. Regards ConnieD.

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ave high cholesterol which doesn’t come down even ith an extremely stict diet with NO fats, etc. some people’s liver just produces excess cholesterol

I read somewhere a few years ago, the best way to control your cholesterol is to choose your parents carefully.  LOL  I take that to mean, some people just have elevated cholesterol, no matter what they do. Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’.  We’re all in this together."  Red Green

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That is Dale. He could eat zero for sat fat and still have high cholesterol. He is taking Zocor now. Kathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ave high cholesterol which doesn’t come down even ith an extremely stict diet with NO fats, etc. some people’s liver just produces excess cholesterol I read somewhere a few years ago, the best way to control your cholesterol is to choose your parents carefully.  LOL  I take that to mean, some people just have elevated cholesterol, no matter what they do. Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’.  We’re all in this together."  Red Green

Response:

very curious how many with RA also have high cholesterol. i have high cholesterol which doesn’t come down even ith an extremely stict diet with NO fats, etc. some people’s liver just produces excess cholesterol , and i am one of them. even after the heart surgery when the cholesterol level should have been down it wasn’t. i take zocor, 80 mg. daily. ad i might add, it is the maximum dosage, and mylevel is still higher than it should be. i read recently in an arthritis magazine that RA can  cause high cholesterol. my cardiologist said no. but i still think it seems to make sense. so out of curiousity, i think this would be an interesting poll! have a great day!  sue  :)

Response:

i have high cholesterol which doesn’t come down even ith an extremely stict diet with NO fats, etc. some people’s liver just produces excess cholesterol , and i am one of them. even after the heart surgery when the cholesterol level should have been down it wasn’t.

Have you had your thyroid tested? Untreated hypothyroidism can cause persistently high cholesterol. – Mary MacT http://www.prado.com/~iris (new site under construction: http://www.alamedacreek.net/mary)

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Sue, my Dad has high cholesterol. He has severe RA that has invaded his lungs. His doctor, who has since retired, told my Dad awhile back that his experience was many RA folks did develop it. He was doing his own study as far as meds, etc. He concluded that the RA itself caused SOME patients to develop drug resistant high cholesterol. He took my Dad off Lipitor, said to eat responsibly, and enjoy life. He did put him on grape seed extract and milk thistle to protect his liver. I don’t want to start anything, but wanted to share his experience with you. And I think it’s a very good question. donnah – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – very curious how many with RA also have high cholesterol. i have high cholesterol which doesn’t come down even ith an extremely stict diet with NO fats, etc. some people’s liver just produces excess cholesterol , and i am one of them. even after the heart surgery when the cholesterol level should have been down it wasn’t. i take zocor, 80 mg. daily. ad i might add, it is the maximum dosage, and mylevel is still higher than it should be. i read recently in an arthritis magazine that RA can  cause high cholesterol. my cardiologist said no. but i still think it seems to make sense. so out of curiousity, i think this would be an interesting poll! have a great day!  sue  :)

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Question:

Hey Girl, Well, Even if you wanted different numbers, you can now officially call yourself: Now go take your wellbutrin.  Stopping your meds is only going to make matters worse. Your A1C has mine beat.  I was 6.9 as of yesterday.  The nurse came out, laughed and said "See, Perfect" My wife had to hold my arm to keep me from going after her.  Perfect, let me draw hers and see what is is.  Perfect my ***!  How can something above Normal Lab values be perfect.  Just below the ADA acceptable levels, sure, but still above the Edocrine Society’s acceptable level of 6.5. But yours is in range.  OK I wouldn’t call it perfect, but still pretty good. A wreck at 33,  Come on Kelly, far from it. Why are you taking the meds?  To prevent from becoming a wreck & doing a pretty good job at it too. List of woes minor?  NO they are real, But one step at a time.   Good Luck, we’re here for you John

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Kelly I am speaking like a mother, dont you dare stop those antidepressants, because whatever you are going through will only be heightened by he depression  Unfortunatel  depression makes you gain weigh faster than losing tit. IKelly if yu want to talk email me .  This is one of those support needs and I am here to listen/. Loretta In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism.

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A1c is down to 6.1 (lab normal 4.5-6.3) down from 6.6 and 6.5 on my last

2. HDL is out of range, which messes up the ratios.   And the LDL, while now "in range", he feels that as a diabetic I should be under 2.5.  Net result: doubled the dose of Lipitor to 20mg

he’s being aggressive….. that’s great news Kelly….. and you are so close on the Chol numbers already ! , on the tests I saw, I was as high as 160/110 during the afternoon, and as low as 80/50 in the wee hours of the morning.  THAT big of a swing can’t be healthy.  So, 2.5mg of Altace is now 5 mg.

dang…… sorry they lost your test……. want to do another one?? (teasing) (and, lemme tell you — going for a brisk walk when not wearing a bra is NO fun!)

lol….. Kim and i were just talking about that last night…… LOL sorry to hear this has you in a spin……. it’s a short spin, and you’ll be back out of it, but for heavens sake don’t stop the anti depressants !… that will put you in a worse spin Kelly, you are a good friend, and i pray that all goes well for you take care, my dear Kate

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Kelly, I am sorry things aren’t as good as you hoped, but hey! you had the numbers before, you slid a little, there has to be a logical reason – winter, change of diet, something. Dry those tears and let us help you back up. Here’s to a trend in Caesar salads! Huggggggssssssss.

Response:

 A1c is down to 6.1 (lab normal 4.5-6.3) down from 6.6 and 6.5 on my last 2. It is now officially a year since my last (and only) foray into the 5% club. But, is has also been a year and a half since I was last in the 7% (or higher) club.

 Good reading Kelly, beat me by .1 as mine came in yesterday at 6.2. Sad to say that we won’t get to see Kate do the snoopy dance which I was looking forward to, but there will be other dances if we can help it. — Dave – 9:29:06 AM T2 – 8/98 Glucophage, U & H A 4th generation Diabetic – Davors Daily Aphorism: You’re not paranoid if everybody is really after you. — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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 I’m the type of person who will show a smiling & joking facade to the world, even when I feel that MY world is coming crashing down.  But last night I just sat & cried about nothing for over half an hour.  Very unusual for me.

Crying is good for the soul. Cleanses all that bad internal stuff that has built up. It is weird.  I feel so down lately, that today I stopped taking my antidepressants.  Now, I have 2 less pills to remember to take.  Like, NOT taking an antidepressant is supposed to make me feel better?  But I just don’t want the damned things.  Maybe if I get all the way depressed, I’ll lose my appetite & actually manage to lose some weight. I’ve booked a trip to Disney in Florida for my daughter & I for May 2 (neither of us have ever been there), and I can’t even get excited about that for more than 10 minutes at a time. My list of woes may be (comparatively) minor, but it is just too damned long.

And that’s today. Tomorrow might look a lot better. Your numbers aren’t looking bad and you’re attending to what you need to attend to. It’s pretty obvious that you need to keep a strong hand in the management of this based on the reports of your doctor! Best Kelly, stay hard! — Dave – 9:14:06 AM T2 – 8/98 Glucophage, U & H A 4th generation Diabetic – Davors Daily Aphorism: (seen on the back of a biker’s vest) If you can read this, my wife fell off… — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Hi there, Sweetie, (I am old enough to call you that, double your age, and old-fashioned enough as well). It’s meant as a term of affection, and my goodness I am fond of you! You remind me of me only a little over a month ago. Do you remember me coming here just after my latest blood test? What a state I was in!  A lot of people posted and reassured me that things weren’t as bad as I thought. Underneath our brave face, many of us are pretty scared, especially when confronted with a lot of results from these tests. So I’d like to pass on the kindness that I received, as best I can. Firstly, I compared your figures with my own. I also compared them with what is regarded as "healthy" according to Australian standards. Your A1c is good. I was told to forget about the 5% club and rejoice in being in the "good" range.  The three ranges are Poor, Good and Excellent. You are only 0.2% from being in the excellent range. You know that the downward trend is there, so you must be doing something right in managing your diabetes. So you have no worries there. (You did better than me, I was 6.6) With Total Cholesterol, the Oz standard is <4.5 mmol. It is lower than the one you quote, but you are still within that guide line. Excellent! HDL guidelines in Oz recommend =1.0 mmol. Yes that needs to be addressed, but I notice an upward trend there too, since your last test. Perhaps Quentin can suggest dietary additions that may help. It is important to note that even small improvements are beneficial. Your LDL’s are great by any standard! (Oz recommends < 3.5 mmol)  Again a slight change in nutrition might be enough to stop a slight upward trend. I didn’t do as well, mine was 4.41 ! Triglycerides should be < 2.0 mmol according to the standards here. It is tougher than yours, but you are still in under there. This all sounds good to me. Again it could be a dietary thing that needs addressing, small adjustments can bring about quite remarkable changes, and reverse the upward tendency. Lastly the ratios, which is where I am the least capable of interpreting the results. I will leave that to those who know a lot more about it, like Jim or Quentin. I know how to do it, but am still uncertain as to what the significance of different ratios might be. As for all those pills, well, I was embarrassed about all the pills I take, and don’t usually talk about it. As well as those that are prescribed, I am taking quite a few supplements, to replace deficiencies in my diet, or add beneficial things that I am unable to eat in my usual diet. Like folic acid, or vitamins B6 and B12. So I splurged and bought one of those pill dispensers from the pharmacy and spend a happy hour every week loading up the little boxes for each day. It sort of makes it more of a game, and I am less likely to forget or overdose. I well remember my "stress" treadmill test! I ended up almost at an angle of 45% with my hands desparately clutching the front of the machine and my toes at the other end. The doctor was saying, just one more minute to go! while I was gasping and trying to stay upright.  The good news was, though, that my heart is fine, even if my fitness was not exactly all that it should be! Depression is not something that I can help with, even though I suffered from it for 20 years. When my health improved dramatically over these last 4 months, it simply went away. I don’t know why it came, or why it left. In those 20 years I tried everything from medications, counselling, self help groups to prayer. Nothing worked. I just got used to it. Actually now that it’s gone, I am constantly amazed at what has happened. I still get emotional ups and downs, the usual worries and fears, but it is a whole new life. Maybe it is one of those supplements I mentioned. I just don’t know. So you see, sweetie, although sympathy is not a popular word, perhaps empathy will suffice instead. If there is anything you would like to discuss or just vent about, please feel free to email me. You are important to me and to many others. Annette "Life is mostly froth and bubble, two things stand like stone. Kindness in another’s trouble, courage in one’s own." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Had my semi-annual visit with my endo yesterday.  And got the results from my quarterly bloodwork that the vampires sucked from me last week. The short of it is that the good news it that all but 1 of my #s were in range.  The bad news is they weren’t in range ENOUGH. The long of it: A1c is down to 6.1 (lab normal 4.5-6.3) down from 6.6 and 6.5 on my last 2. It is now officially a year since my last (and only) foray into the 5% club. But, is has also been a year and a half since I was last in the 7% (or higher) club. Started 10mg of Lipitor at my last visit 6 months ago, and, while everything except the good chol was "normal", they still weren’t good enough for my doc.  Results are: Test        6 months ago        3 months ago        Last week        Lab Normal Chol            5.62                    3.48                    4.42 (below 5.2) Trig             1.52                    1.63                    1.66 (below 2.3) HDL             .77                      .62                      .68 (.9 to 2.07) LDL           4.16                     2.12                    2.99 (below 3.4) LDL/HDL    5.4                       —                       4.4 (below 3.2) Chol/HDL   7.3                        –                       6.5 (below 4.4) HDL is out of range, which messes up the ratios.   And the LDL, while now "in range", he feels that as a diabetic I should be under 2.5.  Net result: doubled the dose of Lipitor to 20mg. Blood pressure at the appointment was 135/80.  Various tests when at the pharmacy lately have ranged from 130 to 150 over 85 to 95.   Remember the 24 hour BP monitor I was hooked up to 6 months ago?  Well, he never called me to say anything about it, good or bad.  And, while sifting through my file… lo & behold!  It wasn’t there!!!!  Misplaced, misfiled, or mislaid, I went through all that for nothing!  :-(  No wonder he never called me to say anything about the results (and, on the tests I saw, I was as high as 160/110 during the afternoon, and as low as 80/50 in the wee hours of the morning.  THAT big of a swing can’t be healthy.  So, 2.5mg of Altace is now 5 mg. And then, I *love* this part — HE mentioned to ME about the risk of congestive heart failure when Avandia is taken with insulin therapy… Hmmm….  *I* told *him* about that a year ago, and even showed him the PI, and he brushed it off…  *sigh*    So, he asks me about edema (none, nada, zilch), family heart risk (at least 2 uncles died of heart problems), shortness of breath, and chest pain.  Now, this part gets weird — a couple of weeks ago, I got this bizarre ache, not a pain as such, but a sharp ache, if that makes sense, just above my left breast, where my bra strap sits.  I got it several times over a few days — first time when I was just starting a hypo, and the other times when my BG was down around 4.0 (72).  But I’m no stranger to that BG level. So, due to my high risk factors, he prescribes a daily baby aspirin, and he sends me for a stress test (for a "baseline reading").  Lucky me.  When the receptionist calls, there is a cancellation for today. Long and short of the stress test, my heart held out, but my legs certainly didn’t.  I did "very well", but I had spaghetti legs by the time I called it quits around about minute 12 or so.  But I got some exercise today! lol (and, lemme tell you — going for a brisk walk when not wearing a bra is NO fun!) I just don’t know how much more of this I can take.   I’m only 33 years old, and I’m a wreck.  I’m now taking 5 different drugs in the morning (plus vitamins), 2 at dinner, and insulin shots whenever I turn around.  And I’m chronically exhausted, no matter how much or how little sleep I get.  (A bazillion blood tests regarding this found NOTHING)  I’m an accountant, and I don’t think I can make it through the rest of this tax season.  I doubt I can do this any longer… I’m the type of person who will show a smiling & joking facade to the world, even when I feel that MY world is coming crashing down.  But last night I just sat & cried about nothing for over half an hour.  Very unusual for me. It is weird.  I feel so down lately, that today I stopped taking my antidepressants.  Now, I have 2 less pills to remember to take.  Like, NOT taking an antidepressant is supposed to make me feel better?  But I just don’t want the damned things.  Maybe if I get all the way depressed, I’ll lose my appetite & actually manage to lose some weight. I’ve booked a trip to Disney in Florida for my daughter & I for May 2 (neither of us have ever been there), and I can’t even get excited about that for more than 10 minutes at a time. My list of woes may be (comparatively) minor, but it is just too damned long. — Kelly T2, daily regime: NPH at bedtime, varying H with meals, Avandia 4mg 2x, Altace now 5mg, Wellbutrin 150mg 2x, and Liptor now up to 20mg. ICQ #85063563 Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves for they shall never cease to be amused. To reply, send to mynick (at) quickclic (dot) com

Response:

. . .[snip]. . .

Remember the 24 hour BP monitor I was hooked up to 6 months  ago?  , on the tests I saw, I was as high as 160/110 during the  afternoon, and as low as 80/50 in the wee hours of the  morning.  THAT big of a swing can’t be healthy.  So, 2.5mg of  Altace is now 5 mg. . .[snip]. . . )  I’m an accountant, and . . .I don’t think I can make it

 through the rest of this tax season.  I doubt I can do this any  longer…[snip]. . . It is weird.  I feel so down lately, that today I stopped

 taking my antidepressants.  Now, I have 2 less pills to remember to take.  Like, NOT taking an antidepressant is  supposed to make me feel better?  But I just don’t want the  damned things.  Maybe if I get all the way depressed, I’ll lose  my appetite & actually manage to lose some weight. Kelly

   Speaking as the husband and brother-in-law of clinically depressed ladies, you sound seriously clinically depressed.   My experience with my family says this is a med problem more  than a "life" problem.   Where I live, we are just finishing the peak of the SADD  Season, "Seasonal Affective Depressive Disorder", caused by short days, long nights and gray, gray, gray, gray, gray, gray  skies.   Clinical Depression + SADD Season + Tax Season!  This is worse  than your twin sister forgetting your birthday.   I have friends and relatives on anti-depressive meds.  I can’t  recommend them highly enough.  On B.P.   Your b.p. should bounce around substantially when you exercise.  I see 30 point Systolic swings just walking around K-Mart.  Regards Old Al (T1 since ‘94, 40 units H + U via 4 injections daily)   A retired engineer who shares his experiences

Response:

Hi Kelly, I’m sorry you didn’t make it into the 5% club, but frankly, it isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. A1c is down to 6.1 (lab normal 4.5-6.3) down from 6.6 and 6.5 on my last 2. It is now officially a year since my last (and only) foray into the 5% club. But, is has also been a year and a half since I was last in the 7% (or higher) club.

I am taking Zocor myself, have been for  over a year now.  It’s just a pill! Started 10mg of Lipitor at my last visit 6 months ago,

My BP has been running a bit high too, and my endo suggested I start testing it more myself.  I take Nifedipine for it.  Hey, it’s just a pill!  And yes, I had to dig my BP monitor out of the bookcase and wipe off the dust before I could use it. Blood pressure at the appointment was 135/80.  Various tests when at the pharmacy lately have ranged from 130 to 150 over 85 to 95.   Remember the 24 hour BP monitor I was hooked up to 6 months ago?  Well, he never called me to say anything about it, good or bad.  And, while sifting through my file… lo & behold!  It wasn’t there!!!!  Misplaced, misfiled, or mislaid, I went through all that for nothing!  :-(  No wonder he never called me to say anything about the results (and, on the tests I saw, I was as high as 160/110 during the afternoon, and as low as 80/50 in the wee hours of the morning.  THAT big of a swing can’t be healthy.  So, 2.5mg of Altace is now 5 mg.

I had sharp heart pains about a year and a half ago I think it was, no doubt from my sedentary lifestyle along with my pain-in-the-ass job I had. My father dies of heart failure at about my age so….I quit my job and joined the gym! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And then, I *love* this part — HE mentioned to ME about the risk of congestive heart failure when Avandia is taken with insulin therapy… Hmmm….  *I* told *him* about that a year ago, and even showed him the PI, and he brushed it off…  *sigh*    So, he asks me about edema (none, nada, zilch), family heart risk (at least 2 uncles died of heart problems), shortness of breath, and chest pain.  Now, this part gets weird — a couple of weeks ago, I got this bizarre ache, not a pain as such, but a sharp ache, if that makes sense, just above my left breast, where my bra strap sits. I got it several times over a few days — first time when I was just starting a hypo, and the other times when my BG was down around 4.0 (72).  But I’m no stranger to that BG level.

I have been taking aspirin everyday for over a year also.  You know the rest…..IT’S JUST A PILL! LOL So, due to my high risk factors, he prescribes a daily baby aspirin, and he sends me for a stress test (for a "baseline reading").  Lucky me.  When the receptionist calls, there is a cancellation for today.

Right before joining the gym, I asked for a stress test.  I was genuinely worried I might fall over dead from too much exercise.  My heart held out fine, but my legs were like jello after only 5 minutes.  To this day I still have leg problems on the treadmill at the gym…they ache after 10 minutes of brisk walking.  All I know to do is exercise as much as I can, spend as much time recovering as I need, and move on. Long and short of the stress test, my heart held out, but my legs certainly didn’t.  I did "very well", but I had spaghetti legs by the time I called it quits around about minute 12 or so.  But I got some exercise today! lol (and, lemme tell you — going for a brisk walk when not wearing a bra is NO fun!)

I hope you can turn to someone for financial and emotional help.  I have family…..I am lucky.  I just try and remember to take all these pills and test my BG and stick it out. I just don’t know how much more of this I can take.   I’m only 33 years old, and I’m a wreck.  I’m now taking 5 different drugs in the morning (plus vitamins), 2 at dinner, and insulin shots whenever I turn around.  And I’m chronically exhausted, no matter how much or how little sleep I get.  (A bazillion blood tests regarding this found NOTHING)  I’m an accountant, and I don’t think I can make it through the rest of this tax season.  I doubt I can do this any longer…

I have experienced depression after my divorce, and I still say "splendiferous" to this day when I am feeling down, not wanting to show a sad face to the world.  That’s a natural reaction called Self-Preservation. I’m the type of person who will show a smiling & joking facade to the world, even when I feel that MY world is coming crashing down.  But last night I just sat & cried about nothing for over half an hour.  Very unusual for me.

I hope your daughter likes Disney World as much as I did as a child!  Try and take lots of pictures. I’ve booked a trip to Disney in Florida for my daughter & I for May 2 (neither of us have ever been there), and I can’t even get excited about that for more than 10 minutes at a time.

I’m sorry you’re feeling so awful, but glad you decided to open up to us, your friends.  We’re all here for you if there’s anything you need….a talk, any small favour, or just a cyber *hug*. My list of woes may be (comparatively) minor, but it is just too damned long. — Kelly

Mike type 1 DX’d 1978 — I wonder whether the stars are set alight in heaven so that one day each one of us may find his own again-Antoine de Saint Exup

Question:

Hi, Liz: I’ve been thinking about you and hoping your doctor’s appointment went OK. xxoo Anne

Response:

yeah liz, me too. how was it? hope it went okay. i know you were really nervous about it. and how was ralph, sweet as always? hehe. take care les.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Liz: I’ve been thinking about you and hoping your doctor’s appointment went OK. xxoo Anne

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Liz: I’ve been thinking about you and hoping your doctor’s appointment went OK. xxoo Anne I am now exhausted from all of the fear, but things went fine.  We had a nice chat and I will now be taking Zocor, continuing my new eating plan, and he will retest my blood in April.  My blood pressure was 122/78…so that is good.  I need to lose many pounds, so this is gonna take a while…sigh.  My cholesterol is 282 and the Triglycerides 290.  My LDL level is 182, yikes!  Some major exercising in my future. Thanks for thinking of me, Anne. — Take care, Liz Every new day gives us another opportunity to make pleasant, very dear

memories. Hi Liz, I feel like crying when I read other people’s blood pressure. Mine is being monitored at the moment. 148/98 at last reading. I’m not going to even think about cholesterol. It was fine 20 years ago. Looks like you have a bit of work ahead of you. All the best, love Meryl

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Liz: I’ve been thinking about you and hoping your doctor’s appointment went OK. xxoo Anne I am now exhausted from all of the fear, but things went fine.  We had a nice chat and I will now be taking Zocor, continuing my new eating plan, and he will retest my blood in April.  My blood pressure was 122/78…so that is good.  I need to lose many pounds, so this is gonna take a while…sigh.  My cholesterol is 282 and the Triglycerides 290.  My LDL level is 182, yikes!  Some major exercising in my future. Thanks for thinking of me, Anne. — Take care, Liz Every new day gives us another opportunity to make pleasant, very dear

memories. Hi Liz! I hope you’re feeling better today.  Fear, whether accompanied by a PA or what, is enough to exhaust you.  When you add it to undergoing tests and talking to the doc, it’s enough to knock you out.  I know the feeling. Love, Di

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Liz: I’ve been thinking about you and hoping your doctor’s appointment went OK. xxoo Anne I am now exhausted from all of the fear, but things went fine.  We had a nice chat and I will now be taking Zocor, continuing my new eating plan, and he will retest my blood in April.  My blood pressure was 122/78…so that is good.  I need to lose many pounds, so this is gonna take a while…sigh.  My cholesterol is 282 and the Triglycerides 290.  My LDL level is 182, yikes!  Some major exercising in my future. Thanks for thinking of me, Anne. — Take care, Liz Every new day gives us another opportunity to make pleasant, very dear

memories. Well, at least you’ve got an eating plan. Now you just need to slowly add the rest… If it’s possible, walking really is one of the best exercises to do. It’s not very strenuous, and relatively easy to do. I understand exactly what you’re going through, when my dad left for NJ on January 5, on the 4th he went to the doc to get the results of his bloodwork… borderline diabetic.. needs to loose AT LEAST 40 pounds, needs to quit smoking, and start moving… not to mention he’s been dealing with high blood pressure for years… Yet for some reason, his cholesterol has never been "high" it’s been ‘borderline’ high, but never "high." He said he’s eating much better up in NJ, and doing a lot of walking… apparently the office is huge up there, and being the system administrator, you’ve got to go all over.. Keep taking it one day at a time, and things will come together. Much Love and Strength, Brooke

Response:

Question:

I was just diagnosed a couple of days ago with type 2 diabetes. Since I’m overweight, I naturally thought that my blood cholesterol level would be through the roof. On the contrary, it was only 105. Up from 90 just four years ago. Is there a link between the two? I’m kind of confused because I used to eat fast foods almost everyday of my life since I was 17. I’m 32 now and can’t figure it out.

Not that I know of.  In fact, it is pretty common for diabetics to have high cholesterol.  I’ve also read that contrary to popular belief, the foods that we eat do not affect our cholesterol.  I dunno.  Haven’t done enough research on it to know one way or the other.  Seems like the thoughts on cholesterol are constantly changing.  Just be glad you don’t have high cholesterol! — Type 2 http://www.redshift.com/~juliebove/

Response:

I too have T2 and low cholesterol.  Yippee! Yes, most diabetics do have high cholesteral, I consider myself blessed.  Now if all the other problems would just go away…..

Response:

I too have diabetes and my cholesterol is under 200.  Is yours that way naturally or are you on meds.  I am taking zocor anda little lipior.   Loretta Support stem cell research in the hope of finding a cure for many diseases.

Response:

cholesterol.  I’ve also read that contrary to popular belief, the foods that we eat do not affect our cholesterol.  I dunno.  Haven’t done enough

I’ve done plenty of reading on that, and I try to avoid the popular non-scientific pulp.  I think fats DO affect it. However, though I don’t have any "research" to back it up, I think that heredity also affects it.  My wife and I were tested at the same time–hers was 198, mine 148.  Same diet, almost the same weight, … — Wes Groleau http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau

Response:

Question:

Wordy, Thought this site might be helpful. It is updated with the recent ATP lll guidelines. Discusses ways to lower cholesterol, among other things. http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/chd/ Gwen

Response:

On Tue, 29 May 2001 22:48:44 GMT, FurPaw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<furpaw.AZAL…@home.com

wrote: Righhhht – zocor.  I can’t remember your readings.  Ok, have you tried the diet/exercise/meditation route to reduce it?  Have you tried a doctor outside of VA to check into other options? My husband takes things like gugulipid and grapefruit pectin and psyllium to help control his LDL.  Diet – he avoids saturated and partially-hydrogenated fats, substituting mono- (olive oil) and poly-unsaturated (canola oil) fats, and getting other fats from nuts, oily fish, oily fruits.  We eat very little beef, more chicken and fish.  Exercise – he’s erratic but in his heart he knows he needs it 8-).   What about Questran (cholestyramine)?  It absorbs bile, thereby preventing some cholesterol from being transported from the small intestine back into the bloodstream.  (I take this for a different reason – no side effects that I’ve noticed, and it stays in the digestive system, isn’t absorbed.) FurPaw

The Medical Letter on Drugs and Therapeutics has just put out an evaluation of  lipid-regulating drugs. Questran and other products are covered as well as the statins. The Medical Letter is non profit, no advertising, peer reviewed and they rely on subscriptions for funding. Note the copyright warning when you click on the url to download the article. [ It was great that they made this particular article available for the  public imo ] http://www.medletter.com/html_files/publicreading.htm Kathryn kathr…@telus.net

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -kathr…@telus.net wrote:

On Tue, 29 May 2001 22:48:44 GMT, FurPaw <furpaw.AZAL…@home.com wrote: What about Questran (cholestyramine)?  It absorbs bile, thereby preventing some cholesterol from being transported from the small intestine back into the bloodstream.  (I take this for a different reason – no side effects that I’ve noticed, and it stays in the digestive system, isn’t absorbed.) The Medical Letter on Drugs and Therapeutics has just put out an evaluation of  lipid-regulating drugs. Questran and other products are covered as well as the statins. The Medical Letter is non profit, no advertising, peer reviewed and they rely on subscriptions for funding. Note the copyright warning when you click on the url to download the article. [ It was great that they made this particular article available for the  public imo ] http://www.medletter.com/html_files/publicreading.htm

As usual, Kathryn comes through with an excellent reference!  And I gave a red-faced ‘ulp’ when I read the bit about Questran – although I haven’t experienced it, and I do have GERD, it seems that heartburn is a common side effect of Questran.  So that might not be the ticket for Wordy… FurPaw

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -FurPaw wrote:

WordSmith wrote: Well, it was definitely the Zocor.  So here I am now with high blood pressure and I can’t even take the medication.  Howzabout them apples?? I asked if there was something else I could take…she said no.  Maybe the VA pharmacy doesn’t carry Lipitor. Wordy – I can’t remember your blood pressure readings, or what you’ve done in the past to control your blood pressure.  Have you tried the diet/exercise/meditation route to reduce it?  Have you tried consulting a doctor outside the VA, to at least find out what other options you might have outside the system?

I’m sorry–my bad.   I meant to say high cholesterol.  My blood pressure’s fine. — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

Response:

ti…@cheerful.com wrote:

Zocor for high blood pressure? Don’t you mean cholesterol? If you *do* mean cholesterol,

Busted! <g

it is my belief that the whole  idea of treating it (particularly in women) is a load of baloney. High cholesterol is not itself a disease. See www.oxford.net/~tishy/surrogep.html and http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm

Thanks Tishy.  You know, my brother told the same thing when I bought my George Foreman grill…"people are way too worried about animal fat intake."  He’s the doctor and nutritionist.  He also does not recommend drinking milk because it is not meant for humans, it’s meant for cows. Thanks for that site though.  I really appreciate that validation. My father has had several angiograms and angioplasties, so I guess I’m considered high risk. — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -WordSmith wrote:

FurPaw wrote: WordSmith wrote: Well, it was definitely the Zocor.  So here I am now with high blood pressure and I can’t even take the medication.  Howzabout them apples?? I asked if there was something else I could take…she said no.  Maybe the VA pharmacy doesn’t carry Lipitor. Wordy – I can’t remember your blood pressure readings, or what you’ve done in the past to control your blood pressure.  Have you tried the diet/exercise/meditation route to reduce it?  Have you tried consulting a doctor outside the VA, to at least find out what other options you might have outside the system? I’m sorry–my bad. I meant to say high cholesterol.  My blood pressure’s fine.

Righhhht – zocor.  I can’t remember your readings.  Ok, have you tried the diet/exercise/meditation route to reduce it?  Have you tried a doctor outside of VA to check into other options? My husband takes things like gugulipid and grapefruit pectin and psyllium to help control his LDL.  Diet – he avoids saturated and partially-hydrogenated fats, substituting mono- (olive oil) and poly-unsaturated (canola oil) fats, and getting other fats from nuts, oily fish, oily fruits.  We eat very little beef, more chicken and fish.  Exercise – he’s erratic but in his heart he knows he needs it 8-).   What about Questran (cholestyramine)?  It absorbs bile, thereby preventing some cholesterol from being transported from the small intestine back into the bloodstream.  (I take this for a different reason – no side effects that I’ve noticed, and it stays in the digestive system, isn’t absorbed.) FurPaw

Response:

On Tue, 29 May 2001 08:23:52 -0500, WordSmith <wordn…@bellsouth.net

wrote: Well, it was definitely the Zocor.  So here I am now with high blood pressure and I can’t even take the medication.  Howzabout them apples??

Do you mean high blood cholesterol? If so apples (quercetin) are very good I think.

I asked if there was something else I could take…she said no.  Maybe the VA pharmacy doesn’t carry Lipitor. —

Did you read the new cholesterol guideline summary in JAMA carefully? Perhaps it is still early to worry about cholesterol reduction with drugs in your case? http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v285n19/ffull/jsc10094.html

However, the later onset of CHD for women in general should be factored into clinical decisions about use of cholesterol-lowering drugs.

 If you do have enough risk factors and diet hasn’t worked there are drug choices other than statins.  From the same article:

When drug therapy for primary prevention is a consideration, the third visit of dietary therapy (see Figure 1) will typically be the visit to initiate drug treatment. Even if drug treatment is started, TLC should  be continued. As with TLC, the first priority of drug therapy is to  achieve the goal for LDL cholesterol. For this reason, an LDL-lowering drug should be started. The usual drug will be a statin, but  alternatives are a bile acid sequestrant or nicotinic acid.

I’ve started on blood pressure medication, it seemed to intensify my GERD too at the first but was easily controlled with otc pepcid. Kathryn kathr…@telus.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

Response:

gs wrote:

"WordSmith" <wordn…@bellsouth.net wrote in message No, it’s not.  Nausea, constipation and muscle aches are side effects. If I get muscle aches, I’m supposed to contact my doctor. Actually, heartburn is listed as a side effect. Look at www.rxlist.com  at the shaded part. dyspepsia  noun [U] MEDICAL pain in the stomach; indigestion from the Cambridge dictionary online

Thanks Gwen.  I’m calling my doctor in the morning.  I’ve been waking up in the night thinking I was having a heart attack for the past couple of nights, but it was the kind of heartburn that got me on prevacid to begin with.  I’ve had all the zocor I can stand. — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

Response:

"WordSmith" <wordn…@bellsouth.net

wrote in message

news:3B12F3C7.AB0803@bellsouth.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> gs wrote: > > "WordSmith" <wordn…@bellsouth.net

wrote in message

> > > No, it’s not.  Nausea, constipation and muscle aches are side effects. > > > If I get muscle aches, I’m supposed to contact my doctor. > > Actually, heartburn is listed as a side effect. Look at > > www.rxlist.com > >  at the shaded part. > > dyspepsia  noun [U] MEDICAL > > pain in the stomach; indigestion > > from the Cambridge dictionary online > Thanks Gwen.  I’m calling my doctor in the morning.  I’ve been waking up > in the night thinking I was having a heart attack for the past couple of > nights, but it was the kind of heartburn that got me on prevacid to > begin with.  I’ve had all the zocor I can stand. > —

No problem.  My doctor told me that any drug can cause heartburn, but especially if it is known to cause any side effects of nausea or vomiting. Be sure and let the doctor know how severe the heartburn has been. Gwen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

Response:

Well, it was definitely the Zocor.  So here I am now with high blood pressure and I can’t even take the medication.  Howzabout them apples?? I asked if there was something else I could take…she said no.  Maybe the VA pharmacy doesn’t carry Lipitor. — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

Response:

WordSmith wrote:

Well, it was definitely the Zocor.  So here I am now with high blood pressure and I can’t even take the medication.  Howzabout them apples?? I asked if there was something else I could take…she said no.  Maybe the VA pharmacy doesn’t carry Lipitor.

Wordy – I can’t remember your blood pressure readings, or what you’ve done in the past to control your blood pressure.  Have you tried the diet/exercise/meditation route to reduce it?  Have you tried consulting a doctor outside the VA, to at least find out what other options you might have outside the system? FurPaw

Response:

On Tue, 29 May 2001 08:23:52 -0500, WordSmith <wordn…@bellsouth.net

wrote:

Well, it was definitely the Zocor.  So here I am now with high blood pressure and I can’t even take the medication.

Zocor for high blood pressure? Don’t you mean cholesterol? If you *do* mean cholesterol, it is my belief that the whole  idea of treating it (particularly in women) is a load of baloney. High cholesterol is not itself a disease. See www.oxford.net/~tishy/surrogep.html and http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm Tishy

Response:

In article <3B13A984.8C035…@home.com

, FurPaw

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<furpaw.AZAL…@home.com

wrote: WordSmith wrote: Well, it was definitely the Zocor.  So here I am now with high blood pressure and I can’t even take the medication.  Howzabout them apples?? I asked if there was something else I could take…she said no.  Maybe the VA pharmacy doesn’t carry Lipitor. Wordy – I can’t remember your blood pressure readings, or what you’ve done in the past to control your blood pressure.  Have you tried the diet/exercise/meditation route to reduce it?  Have you tried consulting a doctor outside the VA, to at least find out what other options you might have outside the system? FurPaw

Did you mean to say high *cholesterol?* Neither zocor nor lipitor are going to do a damn thing for your blood *pressure.* Terri

Response:

FurPaw wrote:

WordSmith wrote: You may recall that I started taking Zocor on Tuesday for my cholesterol.  Within a day or so I got unrelenting heartburn that will not go away.  One prevacid usually takes care of my heartburn problem, but now 4 prevacids don’t even give me relief.  Anybody get heartburn since they started taking cholesterol medication??? Does the heartburn go away if you stop taking the Zocor?

The next time I’m supposed to take it is tonight.  I’m gonna skip it for a couple of days and see if it does go away.  This is disturbing.  It wakes me up at night. — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

Response:

Cathy Friedmann wrote:

Did you check the patient info sheet for Zocor – or the PDR – to see if this is listed as a side effect?

No, it’s not.  Nausea, constipation and muscle aches are side effects. If I get muscle aches, I’m supposed to contact my doctor. — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

Response:

"WordSmith" <wordn…@bellsouth.net

wrote in message

news:3B12DD2C.2286191B@bellsouth.net…

Cathy Friedmann wrote: Did you check the patient info sheet for Zocor – or the PDR – to see if

this

is listed as a side effect? No, it’s not.  Nausea, constipation and muscle aches are side effects. If I get muscle aches, I’m supposed to contact my doctor.

Actually, heartburn is listed as a side effect. Look at www.rxlist.com  at the shaded part. dyspepsia  noun [U] MEDICAL pain in the stomach; indigestion from the Cambridge dictionary online dyspeptic   adjective MEDICAL Someone who is dyspeptic has problems with their digestion. dyspepsia <symptom

The impairment of the power of function of digestion, usually

applied to epigastric discomfort following meals. Origin: Gr. Peptein = to digest (18 Nov 1997) from On-line Medical Dictionary Gwen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

— Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

Response:

From: WordSmith wordn…@bellsouth.net Date: 5/28/01 2:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time You may recall that I started taking Zocor on Tuesday for my cholesterol.  Within a day or so I got unrelenting heartburn that will not go away.  One prevacid usually takes care of my heartburn problem, but now 4 prevacids don’t even give me relief.  Anybody get heartburn since they started taking cholesterol medication???

Could it be coincidental…i.e. unconnected to the Zocor? I would check with the doctor,as another condition could be masquerading as heartburn (heart problems?) Sharon…I live in Another Dimension, but I have a summer home in Reality

Response:

WordSmith wrote:

You may recall that I started taking Zocor on Tuesday for my cholesterol.  Within a day or so I got unrelenting heartburn that will not go away.  One prevacid usually takes care of my heartburn problem, but now 4 prevacids don’t even give me relief.  Anybody get heartburn since they started taking cholesterol medication???

Does the heartburn go away if you stop taking the Zocor? FurPaw

Response:

Did you check the patient info sheet for Zocor – or the PDR – to see if this is listed as a side effect? Cathy — "Decades gliding by like Indians, time is cheap."   Paul Simon ("Ren

Question:

I mentioned in my earlier post on this study  that they did find some other possible advantages to taking a combination of estrogen and statins over taking either alone but an additional increase in HDL by taking both drugs in combination was NOT one of them. On 27 Feb 2001 12:01:51 GMT, resa3…@aol.com (Resa3558) wrote:

Resa wrote: Estrogen alone and in combination raised HDL cholesterol more than simvastatin. By using estrogen alone, the HDL cholesterol was raised from 58 milligrams per deciliter (mg/dL) of blood to 68 mg/dL. Using simvastatin raised the HDL cholesterol level from 58 mg/dL to 61 mg/dL. The combination therapy raised HDL cholesterol from 59 mg/dL before therapy to 69 mg/DL after therapy. Kathryn wrote: Big difference. I think it is a big difference–10 points.  

No way! Do the arithmetic! There was no difference in HDL increase by taking the estrogen statin combination over taking estrogen alone. Go check your original comments on same on the new google usenet archives. Kathryn kathr…@telus.net

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Resa3558 wrote:

Resa3558 wrote: … HRT is a hell of a lot safer than the niacin that is frequently prescribed. From Pat: Um, wrong. Listed side effects of niacin (courtesy of the National Institutes of Health’s Medline system at http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/niacinforhighcholesterols… m202404.html#SXX19 <snipped Readers may judge for themselves which drug is "a hell of a lot safer." you want to beat the drum for HRT, that’s fine. But if you’re going to do it with sweeping misstatements of fact, expect to be challenged. There is a world of difference between the confirmed  toxic effects of niacin medications on the liver and studies which show a possible slight increase of breast cancer with the older heavy doses of HRT.  Also do you understand that side effects and contraindications/warnings are not the same thing?

Yes, of course I do. See http://www.rxlist.com for a list of contraindications and warnings about the use of estrogen, with or without progesterone. They include possible stroke, high blood pressure and, what do you know, liver damage.

If you looked up statistics about the percentages of liver toxicity for those who use therapeutic doses of niacin vs percentages of women who experienced a blood clot while using older heavy doses of hrt you might be enlightened.

I’ve looked at the references you provide. I have no argument with them. Like many drugs- including HRT – niacin should not be used in high doses without a doctor’s supervision. My argument is with your statement that "HRT is a hell of a lot safer than the niacin that is frequently prescribed." Safer for the liver – perhaps. But HRT has broad, systemic effects, some of which may not show up for a long time, which can be just as life-threatening as liver damage. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

On 23 Feb 2001 13:14:36 GMT, resa3…@aol.com (Resa3558) wrote:

http://www.americanheart.org/Whats_News/AHA_News_Releases/01-25-99100… "Estrogen added to cholesterol-lowering drug may exert extra protective effect against heart disease for postmenopausal women"

Note the word *may*.  That release was over two years old Resa. This was a prospective study with 28 post menoapause women average age 57 lasting six weeks. Any longer and they would have to add a progestin for those women with a uterus I  assume. Here were the findings.

Estrogen alone and in combination raised HDL cholesterol more than simvastatin. By using estrogen alone, the HDL cholesterol was raised from 58 milligrams per deciliter (mg/dL) of blood to 68 mg/dL. Using simvastatin raised the HDL cholesterol level from 58 mg/dL to 61 mg/dL. The combination therapy raised HDL cholesterol from 59 mg/dL before therapy to 69 mg/DL after therapy.

Big difference. Oh you were referring to the anti inflammatory effects found with the estrogen. Research results are pretty mixed on this depending on which factors looked at. See the abstract on C-Reactive protein levels in my earlier post. Kathryn kathr…@telus.net

Response:

On 23 Feb 2001 13:14:36 GMT, resa3…@aol.com (Resa3558) wrote:

Obese women do not seem to derive the same benefits and probably should not use HRT long-term. Also many obese women have blood clotting factors that put them at much great risk than thinner women.  Once researchers start weighing these differences in women in the studies, they will be able to determine who derives long term cardiovascular benefits from use of HRT.

Did you see the url for the story I posted yesterday about BMI and cardiac risk?  Someone has noticed that thinner women are increasingly at risk for heart disease too. http://www.americanheart.org/Reuters/pro/20010219epid001.txt.html

BMI unreliable as solo marker for cardiac risk in women WESTPORT, CT (Reuters Health) – Body mass index (BMI) should not be used as a sole marker for risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) in women, according to the results of a large British epidemiologic study.

<snip

Although 84% of the women with a ‘healthy BMI’ of less than 25 had a low-risk profile, 60% of the women classified as obese also had a low-risk profile."

Hmmm, nah I thnk I will stick with my opinion that women might consider using hormones for severe symptom control but using hormones on spec that they have the correct body type to get heart benefits by long term use is pretty iffy at best. Kathryn kathr…@telus.net.

Response:

Resa wrote:

Estrogen alone and in combination raised HDL cholesterol more than simvastatin. By using estrogen alone, the HDL cholesterol was raised from 58 milligrams per deciliter (mg/dL) of blood to 68 mg/dL. Using simvastatin raised the HDL cholesterol level from 58 mg/dL to 61 mg/dL. The combination therapy raised HDL cholesterol from 59 mg/dL before therapy to 69 mg/DL after therapy.

Kathryn wrote:

Big difference.

I think it is a big difference–10 points.  In both men and women HDL levels are predictive of future cardiovascular problems. Kathryn wrote:

see the abstract on C-Reactive protein levels in my earlier post.

Is C-reactive protein may or may not be an important factor. Heart artery endothelial responses or vasodilation which are improved by HRT may be a key factor.  More news about the importance of C-reactive protein. Title: C-reactive protein alone does not predict subclinical atherosclerosis http://www.americanheart.org/Reuters/pro/20010223clin009.txt.html Resa

Response:

Pat Kight wrote:

My argument is with your statement that "HRT is a hell of a lot safer than the niacin that is frequently prescribed." Safer for the liver – perhaps. But HRT has broad, systemic effects, some of which may not show up for a long time, which can be just as life-threatening as liver damage.

Drugs which are toxic for the liver are pretty scary. There is nothing, absolutely nothing reversible about liver damage and cancer of the liver frequently occurs when the liver is damaged.  The need for regular liver tests every 3-4 months for those who use niacin is not reassuring. "Answer: Niacin can affect the liver and regular tests of liver function are necessary about every 3-4 months for the first year and about 6-8 the ensuring years unless the dosage is increased. Three grams is a heavy dosage. Toxicity usually starts at about 2 grams, but each individual is different. You shouldn’t be taking Zocor with niacin unless your liver is watched very closely. Is your doctor doing these tests? If not you need another physician. However, I suspect they are. Make sure to ask about the frequency and the results. " http://www.druginfonet.com/faq/faqniacn.htm It is hard to respond to the inevitable broad, sweeping claims that HRT can seemingly be implicated in all disease that women experience after menopause. But as stated before- 80 percent of women who develop breast cancer have never used hormones.  Women who use hormones and have breast cancer have better survivability.  The study from the American Cancer Society cited here recently showed that there was no increase in deaths due to breast cancer for women who used estrogen…and so on and so on…. Does HRT have the long term systemic effects that you claim? In this article "Environmental Estrogens Differ from Natural Hormones" it is stated, "In contrast to natural estrogens, phytoestrogens and estrogenic drugs, synthetic environmental estrogens: are not easily or readily broken down. are long-lived, remaining intact in the environment and in living organisms for many years. can accumulate in the natural world and within the fat and tissue of animals and humans" http://www.som.tulane.edu/ECME/eehome/basics/eevshorm/ Not as easy to target who is to blame for environmental estrogen toxicity.  But rectifying this wrong probably would change the course of breast cancer and cancer odds for a hell of a lot more women than having HRT banned. Resa

Response:

Kathryn wrote:

Hmmm, nah I thnk I will stick with my opinion that women might consider using hormones for severe symptom control but using hormones on spec that they have the correct body type to get heart benefits by long term use is pretty iffy at

Body weight is an important factor but it only one  to consider if a  woman is deciding to use hormones for heart benefits.  I will quickly list a few of the others:  lowering of hypertension, blood cholesterol improvements, vasodilation improvements, left ventrical function improvement and so on and so on.  Women should be aware of these benefits, should consider their body weight and accurately assess their heart risk factors including hereditary ones before opting to use HRT. Resa Resa

Response:

BUT, the baby, born February 29 (the thing I -didn’t- want to happen) was absolutely perfect.

delurking for a moment here …I have a daughter born on feb 29 too 1976…not too many ive met Lynda…. "My labby loves me just the way that I am"

Response:

Lynda <fleabitp…@aol.comnojunk

wrote in message

news:20010222211739.26059.00002199@ng-mo1.aol.com…

BUT, the baby, born February 29 (the thing I -didn’t- want to happen) was absolutely perfect. delurking for a moment here …I have a daughter born on feb 29

too

1976…not too many ive met

Mine was born in 1980.  Strangely enough, though, she was engaged for awhile to a young man whose best male friend was also born on February 29.  Also, both my daughter and the best friend have red hair. I often wondered if the erstwhile fiance had a thing for unusual birthdays or redheads…. Marilee – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Lynda…. "My labby loves me just the way that I am"

Response:

Linda wrote:

<snip The people were farmers, linen weavers, tailors, and fishermen. Until about 1780 they did not work more than 5 miles from home. We read all the records from 1669-1820 and entered them in database form, because three of my husband’s four families come from that village and there were many other immigrants from there to Fort Wayne, Indiana, whom we were tracing. We finished with about 35,000 souls.

That’s quite an undertaking!  I’m very impressed.  What a fascinating account you provided in the rest of your post.  Thanks for sharing it. — Susan in WA

Response:

On 23 Feb 2001 01:50:51 GMT, resa3…@aol.com (Resa3558) wrote:

I am not beating the drum for HRT. It does effectively increase HDL levels.  

What do you mean by ‘effectively’? Do you mean as in the increase in HDL in the women in the HRT group in the HERS study? Much good that did them. Or did  you see the newest HRT study? [ abstract below] they didn’t even mention the HRT effect on HDL,  but did mention LDL,  but that didn’t make any difference either. Kathryn kathr…@telus.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Arterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol 2001 Feb;21(2):262-268 Effect of Oral Postmenopausal Hormone Replacement on Progression of Atherosclerosis : A Randomized, Controlled Trial. Angerer P, Stork S, Kothny W, Schmitt P, von Schacky C C Medizinische Klinik, Klinikum der Universitat Munchen-Innenstadt, Munchen, Germany. [Record supplied by publisher] -Postmenopausal hormone replacement therapy (HRT) is associated with low cardiovascular morbidity and mortality in epidemiological studies. Yet, no randomized trial has examined whether HRT is effective for prevention of coronary heart disease (CHD) in women with increased risk. The objective of this study was to determine whether HRT can slow progression of atherosclerosis, measured as intima-media thickness (IMT) in carotid arteries. Carotid IMT is an appropriate intermediate end point to investigate clinically relevant effects on atherogenesis. This randomized, controlled, observer-blind, clinical, single-center trial enrolled 321 healthy postmenopausal women with increased IMT in /=1 segment of the carotid arteries. For a period of 48 weeks, subjects received either 1 mg/d 17ss-estradiol continuously plus 0.025 mg gestodene for 12 days every month (standard-progestin group), or 1 mg 17ss-estradiol plus 0.025 mg gestodene for 12 days every third month (low-progestin group), or no HRT. Maximum IMT in 6 carotid artery segments (common, bifurcation, and internal, both sides) was measured by B-mode ultrasound before and after intervention. HRT did not slow IMT progression in carotid arteries. Mean maximum IMT in the carotid arteries increased by 0.02+/-0.05 mm in the no HRT group and by 0.03+/-0.05 and 0.03+/-0.05 mm, respectively, in the HRT groups (P:0.2). HRT significantly decreased LDL cholesterol, fibrinogen, and follicle-stimulating hormone. In conclusion, 1 year of HRT was not effective in slowing progression of subclinical atherosclerosis in postmenopausal women at increased risk. PMID: 11156863

Response:

Kathryn wrote re HRT increasing HDL cholesterol:

What do you mean by ‘effectively’? Do you mean as in the increase in HDL in the women in the HRT group in the HERS study? Much good that did them.

It seems that raising HDL levels can help prevent future CAD.  I am not inclined to advise women that HRT has a piddly effect on HDL levels.  The use of estrogen and progestin (HERS) is not applicable to estrogen plus micronized progesterone use.  In the PEPI study women who used estrogen with micronized progesterone had significantly raised HDL levels.  In the thread, "OT:cholesterol(Re: FemHRT?)" of 1/8/01,  I had provided two urls which had reports about how estrogen has an anti-inflammatory effect in the blood vessels. But, the change in HDL cholesterol levels with use of estrogen was significant according to the one report. http://www.americanheart.org/Whats_News/AHA_News_Releases/01-25-99100… "Estrogen added to cholesterol-lowering drug may exert extra protective effect against heart disease for postmenopausal women" "Estrogen alone and in combination raised HDL cholesterol more than simvastatin. By using estrogen alone, the HDL cholesterol was raised from 58 milligrams per deciliter (mg/dL) of blood to 68 mg/dL. Using simvastatin raised the HDL cholesterol level from 58 mg/dL to 61 mg/dL. The combination therapy raised HDL cholesterol from 59 mg/dL before therapy to 69 mg/DL after therapy" From Kathryn:    

Or did  you see the newest HRT study? [ abstract below] they didn’t even mention the HRT effect on HDL,  but did mention LDL,  but that didn’t make any difference either.

Estrogen and estrogen/progesterone have beneficial effects on cholesterol HDL and LDL but scientists have determined that that constitutes only about 20 percent of the cardiovascular benefits that estrogen provides.  We have discussed the vasodilating benefits, the anti-inflammatory benefits, heart left ventricle functioning improvements, etc here before. Obese women do not seem to derive the same benefits and probably should not use HRT long-term. Also many obese women have blood clotting factors that put them at much great risk than thinner women.  Once researchers start weighing these differences in women in the studies, they will be able to determine who derives long term cardiovascular benefits from use of HRT. Resa

Response:

MrsMeister <mrsmeis…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20010222173921.26150.00002115@ng-mo1.aol.com…

Marilee writes:I retained the placenta in two of my deliveries. Fun isn’t it? Sort of feels like they are pulling your tonsils out

through your

vagina.BTDT Martha

Yup.  Not my happiest moments.  I lost so much blood during one of the two that I nearly had to have a transfusion. BUT, the baby, born February 29 (the thing I -didn’t- want to happen) was absolutely perfect. Marilee

Response:

Resa3558 wrote: … HRT is a hell of a lot safer than the niacin that is frequently prescribed.

From Pat:

Um, wrong. Listed side effects of niacin (courtesy of the National Institutes of Health’s Medline system at http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/niacinforhighcholesterols…

m202404.html#SXX19 <snipped

Readers may judge for themselves which drug is "a hell of a lot safer." you want to beat the drum for HRT, that’s fine. But if you’re going to do it with sweeping misstatements of fact, expect to be challenged.

There is a world of difference between the confirmed  toxic effects of niacin medications on the liver and studies which show a possible slight increase of breast cancer with the older heavy doses of HRT.  Also do you understand that side effects and contraindications/warnings are not the same thing?  If you looked up statistics about the percentages of liver toxicity for those who use therapeutic doses of niacin vs percentages of women who experienced a blood clot while using older heavy doses of hrt you might be enlightened. I am not beating the drum for HRT. It does effectively increase HDL levels.  Of course we are not allowed to say this here at asm without an admonition. And, niacin can be quite toxic.  -You could  do a little more research to confirm this. http://www.upshersmith.com/products/niacor.html Quote: WARNINGS Liver Dysfunction Cases of severe hepatic toxicity, including fulminant hepatic necrosis have occurred in patients who have substituted sustained-release (modified-release, timed-release) nicotinic acid products for immediate-release (crystalline) nicotinic acid at equivalent doses http://www.pharminfo.com/pubs/msb/niacin.html article title : The toxicity of niacin Quote: "If niacin were being evaluated for efficacy and safety and our experiences were replicated by others, we do not believe that it would be approved by the FDA for use in the management of hypercholesterolemia." (McKenney JM et al. JAMA. 1994;271:672-677. Lasagna L. JAMA. 1994;271:709-710) http://www.pharminfo.com/pubs/msb/niacin.html http://www.druginfonet.com/faq/faqniacn.htm One quick search on niacin does not make you an authority.  Who is making the sweeping statements here? Resa

Response:

Marilee writes:

I lost so much blood during one of the two that I nearly had to have a transfusion.

Me too, and then the doctor said in earshot of my mother that I should eat lots of red meat and liver once a day for a week.. gag!! Martha

Response:

Marilee writes:

I retained the placenta in two of my deliveries.  

Fun isn’t it? Sort of feels like they are pulling your tonsils out through your vagina.BTDT Martha

Response:

Linda wrote:

Women who survived the first pregnancy did not usually die in childbirth thereafter.

Didn’t  most of the women who died before or after childbirthing have septicemia or something like that?  I think it interesting that women who survived the first pregnancy and childbirth survived subsequent birthings. from Linda:

A few women died in their late 40’s, often while having their last of perhaps ten babies. After that, women generally lived into their 70’s or 80’s, men into their 60’s.

How these women fared after menopause is not generally documented.  I am not convinced that they had few health problems  Wonder if the well- to-do who had servants lived longer or shorter lives? And I wonder about their diet? Did they have root cellars and vegetables in the winter back in the 1660’s?  The rich feasted mainly on meats, I believe. Fascinating.  thanks for the information. Resa

Response:

Resa3558 <resa3…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20010221205632.03303.00001671@ng-cg1.aol.com…

Linda wrote: Women who survived the first pregnancy did not usually die in childbirth thereafter. Didn’t  most of the women who died before or after childbirthing

have

septicemia or something like that?  I think it interesting that

women who

survived the first pregnancy and childbirth survived subsequent

birthings. I retained the placenta in two of my deliveries.  Had I been having those babies a couple of hundred years ago, I would probably have just bled to death.  Strangely, though, they were my second and third babies.  The first and fourth, the placenta was expelled as it was supposed to. Marilee, charged with having a "lazy uterus" by my doctor – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

from Linda: A few women died in their late 40’s, often while having their last of perhaps ten babies. After that, women

generally lived

into their 70’s or 80’s, men into their 60’s. How these women fared after menopause is not generally documented.

I am not

convinced that they had few health problems  Wonder if the well-

to-do who had

servants lived longer or shorter lives? And I wonder about their

diet? Did they

have root cellars and vegetables in the winter back in the 1660’s?

The rich

feasted mainly on meats, I believe. Fascinating.  thanks for the information. Resa

Response:

This did make for an interesting read.  My mother has done years of genealogical research, so I have been able to remain very lazy.  I must talk to her more before she passes and make sure I secure all of the info. she worked so hard to obtain.   Thx. for giving me the nudge. On 21 Feb 2001 23:53:23 GMT, resa3…@aol.com (Resa3558) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Can’t find the post on ERT/HRT.  I wondered though how does the author Natalie Angier know that  most women who survived their childbearing years lived to a healthy happy old age?  Statistics prior to the 19th century are pretty hard to come by.  People had rickets, scurvy, goiters and anthropologists have found arthritis in the bones of early American settlers. These are only a small sampling of the disease that affected people. It is true that there were centenarians as there are now.  My post of Jan 15 title "Centenarians and HDL cholesterol" explains why some women have a genetic advantage.  But good news estrogen or estrogen/progesterone can up the HDL levels.  HRT is a hell of a lot safer than the niacin that is frequently prescribed.  That entails frequent lab checkups of liver functioning.  So wonder of wonder estrogen may help some women! Resa

— Colette tr…@one.net

Response:

From: tr…@one.net  (CorlissDeb) Date: 2/22/01 5:40 AM Pacific Standard Time

speaking to Resa about her research:

This did make for an interesting read.  My mother has done years of genealogical research, so I have been able to remain very lazy.  I must talk to her more before she passes and make sure I secure all of the info. she worked so hard to obtain.  

Oh,definitely. And heaven forbid your mother should get Alzheimers…do it soon. I wish so much that I’d found out certain information while Mother and aunts were still living…have had no luck tracing ancestry back to the Old Sod. Sharon…I live in Another Dimension, but I have a summer home in Reality

Response:

Linda <uscho…@yahoo.com

wrote in message

news:8vZk6.3$7G1.469@newsfeed.slurp.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Church records are probably the best source of information for

ordinary

people in Europe before 1800, where they have survived. My

husband’s

ancestral village, Windheim near Bremen, had its records

microfilmed by the

LDS. The records begin in 1669, and would have gone back to the

Reformation

except for a fire which burned the church and parsonage in the

autumn of

1669. The description of the fire is on the first page of the

record books.

Cause of death is listed for perhaps half the burials. Probably

50% of

children baptized died before reaching the age of 5, many in their

first

year. Smallpox and measles were the main diseases of babies.

Adults

generally did not die in these epidemics, presumably because they

acquired

immunity as children who survived. The main adult epidemic was

"bloody

diarrhea" which was probably cholera or typhoid. When this struck

adults of

all ages also died. In 1719 there were some 300 deaths in one week

in this

small village. Very few children between 5 and 20 died, and those who did were

generally

killed in farm accidents or drownings. But perhaps 1 in 5 brides

died having

their first baby. Women who survived the first pregnancy did not

usually die

in childbirth thereafter. A few women died in their late 40’s,

often while

having their last of perhaps ten babies. After that, women

generally lived

into their 70’s or 80’s, men into their 60’s. Causes of death

included

cancer (listed as carcinoma, usually of the mouth or face), stroke (apoplexy), and what is listed as senility of age. From 1669 to 1820 there was one listed infanticide, three listed

suicides,

and no murders. However, there were some suspicious accidents, in

which

mother-in-law "fell to her death from the hayloft" and one

gentleman who

drowned "falling into a barrel of wine." The suicides were the

occasion of

long notes about depression, presumably to permit burial in

consecrated

ground, and all were men. The one infanticide was of a child out

of wedlock

by its mother and was recorded as a sealed confession. There were

however a

suspicious number of stillborn out of wedlock infants compared to stillbirths for married couples. The people were farmers, linen weavers, tailors, and fishermen.

Until about

1780 they did not work more than 5 miles from home. We read all

the records

from 1669-1820 and entered them in database form, because three of

my

husband’s four families come from that village and there were many

other

immigrants from there to Fort Wayne, Indiana, whom we were

tracing. We

finished with about 35,000 souls. Linda

I found this to be tremendously interesting. Marilee

Response:

Resa3558 wrote:

… HRT is a hell of a lot safer than the niacin that is frequently prescribed.

Um, wrong. Listed side effects of niacin (courtesy of the National Institutes of Health’s Medline system at http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/niacinforhighcholesterols… "Darkening of urine; light gray-colored stools; loss of appetite; severe stomach pain; yellow  eyes or skin … Feeling of warmth; flushing or redness of skin, especially on face and neck; headache … Diarrhea; dizziness or faintness; dryness of skin; fever; frequent urination; itching of skin; joint pain; muscle aching or cramping; nausea or vomiting; side, lower back, or stomach pain; swelling of feet or lower legs; unusual thirst; unusual tiredness or weakness; unusually fast, slow, or irregular heartbeat". There is, indeed, a warning that high doses can lead to liver damage and that niacin should only be used for cholesterol-lowering under a doctor’s supervision. No drug interaction problems are listed. By comparison: Listed side effects of conjugated estrogen and medoxyprogesterone acetate (the most commonly prescribed combination HRT) also from Medline: "Menstrual periods beginning again, including changing menstrual bleeding pattern for up to 6  months (spotting, breakthrough bleeding, prolonged or heavier vaginal bleeding, or vaginal bleeding completely stopping by 10 months); vaginal itching or irritation, or thick, white vaginal discharge. … Breast lumps; discharge from breast; skin rash …Pain or tenderness in stomach, side, or abdomen; yellow eyes or skin … Abdominal cramps; breast pain or tenderness; diarrhea; dizziness; enlarged breasts; increase in amount of clear vaginal discharge; itching; joint pain; mental depression; nausea; painful menstrual periods; passing of gas; stomach discomfort following meals; unusual tiredness … Bloating or swelling of face, ankles, or feet; headaches, including migraine headaches; increase in sexual desire; tense muscles; unusual weight gain or loss … Mood changes; nervousness; trouble in sleeping; vomiting." Plus a warning about the potential for HRT to cause breast cancer, and a list of 27 seperate classes of drugs which can interact with HRT to cause problems. Estrogen alone, and progesterone alone, come with their own similarly long list of potential side effects, including blood clots leading to stroke, heart attack and death. Readers may judge for themselves which drug is "a hell of a lot safer." If you want to beat the drum for HRT, that’s fine. But if you’re going to do it with sweeping misstatements of fact, expect to be challenged. But then, you probably know that by now. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

Can’t find the post on ERT/HRT.  I wondered though how does the author Natalie Angier know that  most women who survived their childbearing years lived to a healthy happy old age?  Statistics prior to the 19th century are pretty hard to come by.  People had rickets, scurvy, goiters and anthropologists have found arthritis in the bones of early American settlers. These are only a small sampling of the disease that affected people. It is true that there were centenarians as there are now.  My post of Jan 15 title "Centenarians and HDL cholesterol" explains why some women have a genetic advantage.  But good news estrogen or estrogen/progesterone can up the HDL levels.  HRT is a hell of a lot safer than the niacin that is frequently prescribed.  That entails frequent lab checkups of liver functioning.  So wonder of wonder estrogen may help some women! Resa

Response:

Church records are probably the best source of information for ordinary people in Europe before 1800, where they have survived. My husband’s ancestral village, Windheim near Bremen, had its records microfilmed by the LDS. The records begin in 1669, and would have gone back to the Reformation except for a fire which burned the church and parsonage in the autumn of 1669. The description of the fire is on the first page of the record books. Cause of death is listed for perhaps half the burials. Probably 50% of children baptized died before reaching the age of 5, many in their first year. Smallpox and measles were the main diseases of babies. Adults generally did not die in these epidemics, presumably because they acquired immunity as children who survived. The main adult epidemic was "bloody diarrhea" which was probably cholera or typhoid. When this struck adults of all ages also died. In 1719 there were some 300 deaths in one week in this small village. Very few children between 5 and 20 died, and those who did were generally killed in farm accidents or drownings. But perhaps 1 in 5 brides died having their first baby. Women who survived the first pregnancy did not usually die in childbirth thereafter. A few women died in their late 40’s, often while having their last of perhaps ten babies. After that, women generally lived into their 70’s or 80’s, men into their 60’s. Causes of death included cancer (listed as carcinoma, usually of the mouth or face), stroke (apoplexy), and what is listed as senility of age. From 1669 to 1820 there was one listed infanticide, three listed suicides, and no murders. However, there were some suspicious accidents, in which mother-in-law "fell to her death from the hayloft" and one gentleman who drowned "falling into a barrel of wine." The suicides were the occasion of long notes about depression, presumably to permit burial in consecrated ground, and all were men. The one infanticide was of a child out of wedlock by its mother and was recorded as a sealed confession. There were however a suspicious number of stillborn out of wedlock infants compared to stillbirths for married couples. The people were farmers, linen weavers, tailors, and fishermen. Until about 1780 they did not work more than 5 miles from home. We read all the records from 1669-1820 and entered them in database form, because three of my husband’s four families come from that village and there were many other immigrants from there to Fort Wayne, Indiana, whom we were tracing. We finished with about 35,000 souls. Linda

Response:

Question:

henk van dam wrote:

I know there is a mouse model disease  for MS (EAE) which is a similar disease but not identical, but I have never heard about any rat model Does anyone know anything about rat MS ?

There are quite a lot animal models of MS in a variety of species of mammals including mice, rats, guinea pigs, rabbits, macaques, rhesus monkeys and marmosets. Almost all involve injecting myelin proteins and protein fragments (peptides/antigens) sometimes rather crudely in the form of ground up CNS samples from other mammal species. Because of the short generation times and the availability of immunological tools mice and rats are favoured. There are a variety of different models of MS in both mice and rats which are used to simulate various different types of MS (RR,SP,PP) and phases within those types. Susceptibility to the varying types is selected through breeding to create quite large susceptible populations. The most commonly used rats for EAE are Lewis rats which you will see all over Medline. Type "Lewis rats EAE" in medline (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=PubMed) and have a look. Take care, Paul http://www.btinternet.com/~ms_pages/

Response:

hi kath could work.  dunno. the statins seem to have a downside at high doses for some though in bringing on peripheral neuropathy. gotta watch the dose.  there is also a difficulty downstream.  seems that there can be some breakdown of skeletal muscles and the byproduct of this can seriously trash the kidneys. i’d look pretty seriously at this stuff before trying it and i’d want to know exactly what doses i was getting.  that and frequent bloodworks. none of this double blind, hope for the best crap. good luck folks ed kath…@aol.com (KathyKW) writes:

just spent some time looking into this stuff.  there isn’t anything out there directly talking about this and MS.  at least not that i could find WONDER IF  LIPATOR WOULD  HELP,  IF  NOT  WHY NOT?/  KATHY

— ———————————————————————–   "The whole business of his life was in the plunder of his gaze…"                                                 Daniel Halevy on Degas | <include

ed’s 3d stuff | http://world.std.com/~ehill | 617-629-4625 |

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

                  MUSC researchers offer hope against MS                                       Thursday, November 2, 2000                   By LYNNE LANGLEY                   Of The Post and Courier staff                        A drug commonly prescribed to lower cholesterol may help relieve symptoms                   and slow progression of multiple sclerosis, Charleston doctors announced                   Wednesday.                        Medical University of South Carolina doctors will direct a national trial,                   beginning next month, in which MS patients take simvastatin (brand name Zocor)                   for six months to determine whether the drug is safe and effective.                        If it is, the drug that more than 20 million people have taken worldwide may                   leap onto the federal Food and Drug Administration’s fast track for approval to                   treat MS.                        The medicine worked dramatically on rats in the MUSC laboratory of Dr.                   Inderjit Singh.

I know there is a mouse model disease  for MS (EAE) which is a similar disease but not identical, but I have never heard about any rat model Does anyone know anything about rat MS ? Henk van Dam hv…@home.nl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

                       Rats with MS had increasing difficulty moving and became partially                   paralyzed. Rats given the drug, however, didn’t just get up and walk. They                   romped around and ran in their exercise wheels.                        All the treated rats completely recovered while those with MS that did not

Response:

thanks for the additional info folks yer awesome ed — ———————————————————————–   "The whole business of his life was in the plunder of his gaze…"                                                 Daniel Halevy on Degas | <include

ed’s 3d stuff | http://world.std.com/~ehill | 617-629-4625 |

Response:

I’m very interested in these findings and at the same time utterly dismayed…  I have been on three different statins and am awaiting a call from my doc as to what is left for me to take for my Cholesterol that won’t cause side affects….  I am one of those people that had side affects from the statins. The side affects for the last few years had been blamed on my MS. They were extreme muscle weakness and fatigue along with stabbing pain in my muscles….  Once my Neuro took me off the meds I began to feel better… But my Cholesterol is climbing like crazy despite a ridged fat free diet…. I would like to add that my MS has weakened my arms and I find my left leg is getting weaker all the time…. I have not been on the Statins mentioned so I’m very curiouse about all this…. dory

Response:

just spent some time looking into this stuff.  there isn’t anything out there directly talking about this and MS.  at least not that i could find

WONDER IF  LIPATOR WOULD  HELP,  IF  NOT  WHY NOT?/  KATHY

Response:

To the list: After 5 years of lurking here, there’s finally a subject that brings me out of the woodwork: Zocor. My wife, diagnosed with MS 5 years ago, had a very bad experience with Zocor.  She was taking a normal dosage to lower her cholesterol. She began taking Zocor in early 1999, I believe at the end of January.  By April her reaction time had slowed to almost a full second.  She stopped driving after totaling her car in a one car accident in mid-April.  She just couldn’t react fast enough to drive a car safely.  By July a second problem emerged: she was angry.  Very angry, at everyone and everything. This from a gal that’s normally very easy going, with compassion for those around her, a retired nurse.  By October she was so frustrated with her anger that she stopped taking the Zocor and asked to be switched to another medication for her cholesterol.  48 hours after stopping the Zocor her emotions were back to normal.  After a week her reaction time was back to normal. While on Zocor her MS symptoms didn’t change, neither better nor worse. Of course we all react differently to medication, and your mileage may vary. Be well, Bob S.    http://www.dallas.new/~swartzen Whoever said money can’t buy happiness forgot about kittens and puppies.

Response:

The URL you gave below is missing a hyphen and does not work.  Try http://www.musc.edu/catalyst/co11–3clinical.htm instead. On Sun, 05 Nov 2000 16:18:16 -0500, aradia <ara…@cchat.com

wrote: I think what happened in the research was the neuro biologist stumbled across it while checking on the other dz.  Here is a link to an article that is written not as sloppily as the one from the paper.  It goes into a little more detail.  I am just excited about it.  My brother has 2ndary progressive and I sure hope this stuff works.  Here’s the link: www.musc.edu/catalyst/co11-3clinical.htm

http://www.musc.edu/catalyst/co11–3clinical.htm — Spelling and grammatical errors are deliberate to catch copyright violators.