Question:
In article <35EEC617.13ECE…@ucs.orst.edu
,
Pat Kight <kig…@ucs.orst.edu
wrote: I found a link to the National Fraud Information Center, a project of National Consumers League (about as mainstream and well-respect a consumer-protection group as you’ll find).
There’s a do-everything complaint site at: http://www.elsop.com/wrc/complain.htm It has several links devoted to MLM operations.
Response:
There’s a do-everything complaint site at: http://www.elsop.com/wrc/complain.htm It has several links devoted to MLM operations.
Robert, thanks for this URL. I have several of their links on my Itchy page, but this is a handy reference for reporting fraud in all itsmany flavors. Regards, vlhb…@aol.com http://members.aol.com/vlhb002/meno/itchy.html
Response:
I think there’s nothing wrong with discussing Dr. Lee’s theories here. Discussion of such issues is one of the reasons for the newsgroup. In article <35F04375.1…@direct.ca
, mudos…@direct.ca wrote: Dr. Lee showed the publications and gave the dates. I didn’t take notes but one of them was January 28, 1998.
I’m afraid nothing shows up on Medline for that date. 56 hits, mostly foreign language publications. The Jan 22/29 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association dealt with mortality from prescribed drugs in hospitals, could that be it?
wasn’t some hoary old test that had already been discussed. I tried some time ago to access Lancet on the internet to look up that study that was
The January 10th Lancet contained several letters concerning a study on the safety (or not) of phytoestrogens. That’s as close as it gets to Jan 28th + estrogen or progesterone.
refreshing change from my doctors. My doctors (g.p.s, gynecologist, urologist, nephrologist and psychologist) have:
As I recall, Mudospun has had some terrible doctors, and newsgroup participants have advised her to switch. Obviously exposure to a doctor who is willing to address these issues at length must be very refreshing.
A note about Premarin. Everyone has read about the dangers and the benefits. It is one of the three most widely prescribed pills in the U.S. It works for many women. He explained why – it contains a lot more than estrogen from the pregnant mares’ urine. The urine also is chock full of natural progesterone which is contained in huge amounts in pregnant mammals, as we all know.
That is what is in the urine. But the estrogens are conjugated, meaning they’re bound to something. They are extracted and separated from progesterone. If there is a significant amount of progesterone in Premarin, that would be a revelation. Then women could take unopposed Premarin, because it (supposedly) contains progesterone. Was he really saying that?
He said that the ovaries of the female embryo are fully developed and already contain all the eggs at the 18th day after conception,
Eighteen DAYS? Perhaps he meant 18 weeks. From: http://www.healthanswers.com/database/ami/converted/001497.html "With the union of a sperm and an ovum, the embryo acquires the chromosomes that determine the sex of the fetus (XX=female; XY=male). During the first 6 weeks, the sex of the fetus is not distinguishable. At about 6 weeks gestation, ovaries develop in those with two X chromosomes, and testicles develop in those with an X and Y chromosome.:
there is damage to those ovaries if the pregnant mother eats food tainted with DDT (which would have been even in OUR mother’s food), or any of the more modern pesticides nowadays, as well as breathing in petrochemicals, and other environmental pollutants which are man-made. He said this (as well as estrogens fed to cows which remain in the meat we eat, plastics, etc.) is what caused the progesterone to be inadequate in later life;
Apparently Dr. Lee’s idea is that the ovaries are damaged so that they don’t provide enough progesterone. I have seen no evidence for this. It is remarkable that he doesn’t seem to mention birth control pills, which provide much more hormone than xenoestrogens.
We were invited to put questions on index cards for him to answer at the end of the lecture. However, it ran over, the room was rented for a finite period of time, and he could not answer each and every question. The woman who organized the event chose a few for him to answer. Mine wasn’t among them, but he did talk about the subject quite a bit in relation to other questions.
He ran over the time limit in a 5 hour seminar? Here’s how the scam works: the pitchman and his plants make up some index cards with safe questions on them. Then they invite written questions from the audience. They discard those questions, or perhaps they select a few, and they explain to the audience that because time is short, they can’t answer all questions. No one compares notes, or they’d find that almost none of the audience questions–as written by members of the audience–were addressed.
In Canada natural progesterone is not available.
It is available on prescription.
studying the request for a change; anyway he is still trying to talk to the Canadian government about allowing progesterone in the country.
I’ve criticized the Canadian government many times for this sort of thing, but I think this brings up the question of Dr. Lee’s motivation. It seems very unlikely to me that he’s doing all this lecturing and writing just out of the goodness of his heart. He very likely has investments in the progesterone business somewhere–perhaps in Syntex, the company that manufactures the progesterone. Did no one ask what his personal motivation is? Someone with access to TRW should look up his holdings, which are probably in the vehicle of an investment corporation for which he is director.
Progesterone levels in the blood and in the breast tissue were measured before and after a course of progesterone use by women with breast cancer. It halted the breast cancer, by the way. Hey – maybe it is all lies, …
My understanding is that progesterone can be useful in treating progesterone receptor (PR) negative breast cancer, while anti-progestins are useful in treating PR positive cancers.
If I get it I will be able to quote the names and dates of studies, what medical journals they appeared in, etc., if anyone still wants to know.
Good That’s the point of giving references of course, so that people can check them.
going back to school, but I am getting better and better.
Hopefully they will have a women’s health clinic, where you can get references to more sympathetic and knowledgeable doctors.
Say he is wrong and I’m harmed by my progesterone use –
Since you also have thyroid problems, you should probably monitor bone loss.
Response:
In article <35F19DCE.2…@direct.ca
, mudos…@direct.ca wrote: He may have lied about the ingredients in Premarin. Now that you mention it, how would he know what’s in the patented formula?
The ingredients of Premarin are known. I don’t think Lee lies so much as he only tells one side of the story. However I’m at a loss to understand the statement about ovary development, and he’s made some other claims that are, in my opinion, deliberate misstatements of facts.
It was nice to feel trusting for a moment in time; then comes the crash when the usual cynicism has to return. Dr. Lee is probably just like others who appear to be humanitarian but really do what they do purely for gain. I include myself. Always looking out for Number One. Human nature is pretty self-centered and I guess I don’t even know anyone who has never used people. Maybe Mother Teresa and her nuns.
Geez, you make me feel bad, Mudo. Maybe I laid it on too thick, in the spirit of debate. I’ll say this on behalf of the natural progesterone crowd — I’ve been reading this group off & on since May 1996, and what strikes me is the enthusiasm women get when they begin using NP. It is a way to regain control in a situation where there is a temporary loss of some control. To me, that’s a good thing. It doesn’t matter if you wear a lucky charm or use NP cream, as long as it raises your spirits. That’s easily worth 20 bucks a month. So my apologies for raining on the parade 
that is the case I am sorry I posted about seeing him and just made a fool of myself.
Not at all. It was a good report.
Response:
mudos…@direct.ca wrote:
It seems very unlikely to me that he’s doing all this lecturing and writing just out of the goodness of his heart. He very likely has investments in the progesterone business somewhere–perhaps in Syntex, the company that manufactures the progesterone. Did no one ask what his personal motivation is? Someone with access to TRW should look up his holdings, which are probably in the vehicle of an investment corporation for which he is director. I find it all very unsettling to have this portrait of Dr. Lee as a con artist…albeit a well-spoken, charismatic one. I guess I am easily fooled by rhetoric.
I haven’t read Dr. Lee and have no opinion on him one way or another. But I just wanted to point out here that many, many authors — including me — do many speaking engagements as a way of promoting book sales. verdant
Response:
Mudospun writes:
I find it all very unsettling to have this portrait of Dr. Lee as a con artist…albeit a well-spoken, charismatic one. I guess I am easily fooled by rhetoric.
Don’t beat yourself up over this. We have some facts: 1. Dr. Lee is charming, persuasive and well-spoken. 2. He presents facts that don’t add up once they’re checked against other knowledge. There are two possibilities here. One is that he’s a con man, and I can understand that you would find it very upsetting to feel that you’ve been taken in by a con man. The other is that he’s become enamored of a theory that, if he stepped back and looked at it more carefully, he would recognize as flawed. Either one of these explanations would fit the facts. And, the effects are the same: he’s giving a lot of women a shove toward remedies that may not be 100% effective, and certainly aren’t 100% proven. But I don’t think you have to feel bad about having found him a compelling speaker. Even if he is a con man. Con men wouldn’t be successful if they weren’t *very* good at what they do. Thank you for coming back and giving us the most comprehensive and unbiased report you could. It was good for us to read it, and to have some other folks critiquing what you’ve written. The only folks who’ve heard him and reported back before have been confirmed skeptics, and they can’t capture the nuance as you did. This may be a thread worth preserving. Regards, vlhb…@aol.com
Response:
Hi mudo, No sense giving up on that feeling younger sense you had yesterday. You were sounding so good and happy. And making plans for this fall. I see no reason not to continue in that vein. mudos…@direct.ca wrote:
I have to take your post seriously. You have dismantled his credibility piece by piece.
This should make you feel good. It is confirmation of one size does not fit all. It is confirmation that no one knows all the answers yet. It is you understanding more and more about menopause.
I am sorry I posted about seeing him and just made a fool of myself.
You posted so well about seeing him. It was every bit as informative as when Joan posted about seeing him. In no way did you make a fool of yourself.
I’ll continue in my confused path to look for answers
Take a little bit from anyone or anything that rings true to your own personal experience. Research it and see if what they say holds up under scrutiny. You have been doing good reporting on your use of progesterone cream. You are paying attention to how you feel and keeping track of the changes. And you’ve been sounding happy. Don’t let go of that. Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ
Response:
I have to take your post seriously. You have dismantled his credibility piece by piece. He held up a copy of JAMA and may have lied about the date on it. Not one of us went up to the lectern and looked at it closely. He may have lied about the ingredients in Premarin. Now that you mention it, how would he know what’s in the patented formula? He may have lied about scientific facts of fertilization – yes, he did say the ovaries with all their thousands of eggs were fully formed by "the 18th DAY after conception." He repeated it several times for emphasis, as the audience was shocked at this revelation. Also you say he follows a well-known procedure of "pitchman" and "plants" with fake questions, and discarding the real questions. But for me the most important point you raise, which I tried to ignore before, was:
It seems very unlikely to me that he’s doing all this lecturing and writing just out of the goodness of his heart. He very likely has investments in the progesterone business somewhere–perhaps in Syntex, the company that manufactures the progesterone. Did no one ask what his personal motivation is? Someone with access to TRW should look up his holdings, which are probably in the vehicle of an investment corporation for which he is director.
I find it all very unsettling to have this portrait of Dr. Lee as a con artist…albeit a well-spoken, charismatic one. I guess I am easily fooled by rhetoric. It was nice to feel trusting for a moment in time; then comes the crash when the usual cynicism has to return. Dr. Lee is probably just like others who appear to be humanitarian but really do what they do purely for gain. I include myself. Always looking out for Number One. Human nature is pretty self-centered and I guess I don’t even know anyone who has never used people. Maybe Mother Teresa and her nuns. What I wrote in my original post was that I wished someone would debate Dr. Lee. Why let him run amok and just list his errors in a newsgroup he doesn’t read? Could someone at least forward their objections to his newsletter or somewhere he might read them and answer them? Why did no objectors show up at his lecture? Maybe he truly is considered such a crackpot that no one would want to waste the time to confront him. If that is the case I am sorry I posted about seeing him and just made a fool of myself. I’ll continue in my confused path to look for answers but if I throw him out, I also have to throw out numerous books on menopause that are completely based upon his theories. You would be surprised how many of them refer to his books. Is Dr. Susan Love the only respected, trustworthy writer on menopause? Or is it someone else, and if so, who? I would like one book I can believe.
Response:
On Sat, 05 Sep 1998 13:23:41 -0700, mudos…@direct.ca wrote:
Is Dr. Susan Love the only respected, trustworthy writer on menopause? Or is it someone else, and if so, who? I would like one book I can believe.
There are good books out there mudospun. Just look for books that don’t proclaim to have all the answers. A magic cure. And don’t throw out Dr. Lee’s advice completely, he did stress the need for proper diet and exercise did he not? He did in his book I know, said that was the best way to protect yourself for heart disease. And as I said before, I don’t think Dr. Lee is a charleton, I think he honestly believes the things he was talking about. Look at the attention he is given. But he is not a medical specialist, or scientist, just a family doctor. He had a theory and went searching for evidence, no matter how flimsy to back it up, and someone helped him I am sure. [ I doubt he wrote that saliva testing report himself as an example ] I like Dr. Love’s book because she said she set out to research menopause for herself and was just passing on the information she found. She didn’t promise anything.Didn’t say she had the answers. She said we needed to look for the answers ourselves. What is not to trust when she starts with that premise? Also, as you are in Canada, why not see if you can find Janine O’Leary Cobb’s "Understanding Menopause" in the library. Janine is just a social worker, so she is very careful not to come across as giving medical advice. Her special point of view, (every author does have one so look out for it) is that talking and listening to other women is a good way to find out about menopause. Sort of like asm, she was a just ahead of her time. She is going to receive a special menopause education award next month at the NAMS conference in Toronto. [ I read this in her newsletter] But you seem to have some special peri problems mudospun, and I don’t think you will find the answers to them in any one size fits all therapy or in a general menopause book. Why don’t you try again to ask asm about them one by one and see if anyone can direct you to some information. THEN go find a doctor who will talk to you. Kathryn
Response:
Itchy says: To be honest I could care less if any women orders
the cream where I get mine, as stated before I think we should all be educated on the material and then make the decision that is right for our bodies.
Well, that’s good. It’s a free country and Itchy can continue to post. But I’ll also continue to post that Itchy is involved in an MLM organization, which is first cousin to a pyramid scheme. She gets commissions on sales and a bounty for every distributor she recruits. Regards, vlhb…@aol.com http://members.aol.com/vlhb002/itchy.html
Response:
Toka writes:
We are all ‘old’ enough to decide for ourselves after we read information and process it for our individual requirements. Here, here! I enjoy all points of view because in this way I learn new things and form new and sometimes different opinions.
Pardon me if I’ve misremembered, but: aren’t you involved in marketing an "alternative medicine" product? Regards, vlhb…@aol.com
Response:
On Thu, 03 Sep 1998 19:17:36 -0500, itchy…@postoffice.swbell.net wrote:
Mudo, You go girl! I’m happy for you that you have been able to find the results you were looking for. To be honest I could care less if any women orders the cream where I get mine, as stated before I think we should all be educated on the material and then make the decision that is right for our bodies. I’m sorry that you are made to feel like you have to "prove" why you made the decision you did. Maybe someday this newsgroup will allow us all to share without being ridiculed about the choices we make with our own bodies. I have never ran across a more controversial subject. I wish you continued success. Itchy
Yes this is a controversial subject, but somehow it is always the purveyors of this product that keep bringing up that this is a controversial subject, that keep talking about conspiracy, that keep warning us about the medical profession and their special interests. It must be good for business, makes your product seem special. Dr. Love in her Hormone book talks about natural progesterone in a straight non confrontational manner just like it was another hormone product, which it is. I wish mudospun success too but that does not say I believe in one iota Dr. Lee’s particular theory. Have you not understood yet that personal testimonial is welcome on this newsgroup itchy? The only ones who have even suggested this might bring riducule are yourself and one other unnamed poster. Now come on, what were the steps that you took in your decision to use Balances creme. I am not making you do this, I ask because it will help and this is a support group, That is why you are posting here isn’t it? Kathryn
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
itchy…@postoffice.swbell.net Date: 9/3/98 8:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: <35EF319F.B1D45…@postoffice.swbell.net Mudo, You go girl! I’m happy for you that you have been able to find the results you were looking for. To be honest I could care less if any women orders the cream where I get mine, as stated before I think we should all be educated on the material and then make the decision that is right for our bodies. I’m sorry that you are made to feel like you have to "prove" why you made the decision you did. Maybe someday this newsgroup will allow us all to share without being ridiculed about the choices we make with our own bodies. I have never ran across a more controversial subject. I wish you continued success. Itchy
I have to agree with Itchy on being allowed to share our decisions concerning our bodies without feeling ridiculed. But, I will say that this newsgroup is a more user friendly place then when I stumbled in the door. Now, if we could just tone down the vendetta against Itchy….would it be perfect……..hmmm, not sure about that. ) Anee
Response:
Thank-you very much for being brave and posting this. I would love to have to opportunity to hear him myself. I have heard his speeches are fascinating! I really enjoy his newsletter as well. I wish you continued success with natural progesterone. Itchy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -mudos…@direct.ca wrote:
Dr. Lee appeared at a hotel in my city last week and gave a 5 – hour lecture (with one hour break for lunch), and answered questions. I went because I have been using USP progesterone for 2 months and had read his book, and thought I should see what he had to say. I didn’t expect much but a discussion of the book, but I found him a good speaker who spoke eloquently and was not fazed by questions shouted out in the middle of his talk – he answered them fully and then carried on where he left off. I didn’t think I could sit through 5 hours but I did with ease, mesmerized and leaning forward in my seat as he showed the effects of Provera vs. natural progesterone on the arteries of the heart, tetc. He was literate, smart, organized, but mostly he gave case study after case study about progesterone and estrogen and their effects on cancer, heart attacks and osteoporosis; showed articles (recent ones) from JAMA and Lancet about these studies (they never made the newspapers or TV news) and also talked about other conditions besides menopause – if he comes to your city I would recommend seeing him. If you are against natural progesterone, at least you could heckle him. No one there did and I think that would be fun to watch. It was said in this newsgroup to me a while ago that he was wrong in saying progesterone is a precursor of estrogen. During the talk he said that progesterone is also a precursor of testosterone and is the master hormone, and that men over 60 should use it to increase testosterone and prevent prostate cancer. I was wishing he would have a debate with people who think he is a charlatan. None of them were there. Or even with a "traditional" doctor – none of them were there either. Anyway, whether his theories are correct or not, the articles in JAMA and Lancet about the dangers of estrogen were from "established" medicine and they gave credence to his theories. He had a scientific and logical answer for everything and did not appear to be an unbalanced fanatic. I have renewed faith in the progesterone. Yes, I had noted 5 or 6 beneficial changes in my health that have become more and more pronounced in the 2 months I’ve been using it, but was assuming they were "placebo", cyclical, or some other explanation. Now I have a renewed faith in progesterone and will continue to use it. And I will not be taking estrogen. Just wanted to share with you that I came away from his talk with very positive impressions.
Response:
Itchy is delighted with Mudospun’s report on a John Lee talk. Here is another point of view. See Robert Ames’ posting entitled "Re: Saliva Testing" from yesterday for an analysis of the rigor of some of Dr. Lee’s arguments. You can search Dejanews for it at http://www.dejanews.com/home_ps.shtml Ames demonstrates that many of Lee’s statements are in error, and that many of the studies he cites are completely irrelevant. I don’t doubt that Lee was persuasive, and I am willing to consider the possibility that he sincerely believes his theories. The fact that he holds an M.D., however, does not make him infallible — as many of us who’ve had to smack our gynecologists upside the head to get their attention can attest. I’m sure that Mudospun has given a very accurate description of the event. Mudospun, did you walk out of the lecture with actual citations from JAMA, Lancet, etc.? If so, could you share them as well as your understanding of what Dr. Lee says they prove? Did you see the articles themselves? Or is it possible that his readings of these articles could be more along the lines of what Robert Ames has demonstrated in his critique? Based on Ames’ analysis of Lee’s claims, and on my own reading of some of Lee’s writings, I’d approach any of his comments very critically. As for Itchy’s accolades…we all know that Itchy sells the products Dr. Lee recommends, so she’s hardly a disinterested observer. My views on Itchy are well known and can be found on the web page listed below. Regards, vlhb…@aol.com http://members.aol.com/vlhb002/meno/itchy.html
Response:
On 3 Sep 1998 13:50:09 GMT, vlhb…@aol.com (Vlhb002) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Itchy is delighted with Mudospun’s report on a John Lee talk. Here is another point of view. See Robert Ames’ posting entitled "Re: Saliva Testing" from yesterday for an analysis of the rigor of some of Dr. Lee’s arguments. You can search Dejanews for it at http://www.dejanews.com/home_ps.shtml Ames demonstrates that many of Lee’s statements are in error, and that many of the studies he cites are completely irrelevant. I don’t doubt that Lee was persuasive, and I am willing to consider the possibility that he sincerely believes his theories. The fact that he holds an M.D., however, does not make him infallible — as many of us who’ve had to smack our gynecologists upside the head to get their attention can attest.
I don’t know how to start on this. Dr. Lee is not a charleton, he is just very very misleading in the way he presents his information. I wish I could explain it better. Mudospun I just read your report and I can see you were mesmerized by facts. It has been two years since I read a library copy of his book. If his lecture was like the book, most of the information he presented was totally irrelevant to *otc* progesterone creme. I’ll bet: 1. Dr. Lee spent some time saying estrogen is bad, Probably a lot of time showing that studies show that estrogen is bad. We HAVE discussed these studies on asm, there is nothing mysterious or held back about them. We have listened over and over to the problems women have had with estrogen on asm. **That does not prove otc progesterone creme is any good** 2. Dr. Lee probably spent a great deal of time showing that the claims for estrogen and heart disease protection are not yet proven? Well where have you heard that before? asm? Dr love’s book? Dr. Susan Hoch? **That does not prove otc progesterone creme is any good** 3. Dr. Lee probably spent less time showing the effects of estrogen on sparing bone density loss. He may have spent some time showing that some studies showed progesterone built bone. Probably even mentioned progestin studies that showed progesterone built bone. **That does not prove otc progesterone creme is any good** Did he mention the studies that were not favourable to his theory? Here is one, Note the recent date. J Bone Miner Res 1997 Nov;12(11):1851-1863 Premenopausal ovariectomy-related bone loss: a randomized, double-blind,one-year trial of conjugated estrogen or medroxyprogesterone acetate. Prior JC, Vigna YM, Wark JD, Eyre DR, Lentle BC, Li DK, Ebeling PR, Atley L 4. Then he probably mentioned a study comparing progestins to natural progesterone in some animals (monkeys?) and they found the progestin caused heart attacks. If you go to deja news you will find this study mentioned in the asm ng. If you listened the spin doctors after the publication of the recent HERS report on HRT in women with heart disease you will see that it is the progestin in PREMRO that is getting the blame by some for the poor results and a study should be done using progesterone and estrogen. This is not hidden information, this is the media talking. **But this is irrelevant as far as proving that otc progesterone creme is any good, otc progesterone is not used to oppose estrogen in HRT anyway** 5.. He probably talked about xenoestrogens and that after millions of years of evolution peri has changed in the past 50 years right? This fitted in well with his <theory
of estrogen dominance.
[ But read the Environmental endocrine report Tishy posted about, http://www.ccpa.ca/Reports/1997/endocrine/whatisin.htm ] **That does not prove otc progesterone creme is any good, actually probably proves intervening into nature is bad** 6. He probably talked about how women start to ovulate less during peri, and that results in lower progesterone levels. Well what does he think menopause is anyway? If progesterone was beneficial post menoause don’t you think we would have evolved to have it? And lets not get into the argument that women were not meant to have menopause. http://www.sciam.com/1998/0698womens/0698perls.html **So if we don’t need progesterone without ovulation, why does that prove otc progesterone creme is good?** His case for progesterone supplementation is so wobbly it isn’t funny. Just one other example. You mention that he said progesterone was a precursor for estrogen. So if estrogen is soooo **bad** why would this fact be a good reason to take progesterone? If progesterone is a precursor to testosterone, why would progesterone be good for men to prevent prostate cancer? I am sure he **sounded** logical Mudspun, I’ve read reports of his meetings before and I read his book and I can understand why you were impressed with him. I just don’t see anything in the underpinings of his theory to show that he is right that otc progesterone creme is at all needful or beneficial for women. It is not just a case of who is right and who is wrong. We are talking apples and oranges here. Thanks for writing this report Mudospun, yes I agree with vlhb002, your description of the event was very clear, I could imagine myself being there. Was this held in Canada? If so did he mention anything about the politics of availability? Who sponsered the event? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
I’m sure that Mudospun has given a very accurate description of the event. Mudospun, did you walk out of the lecture with actual citations from JAMA, Lancet, etc.? If so, could you share them as well as your understanding of what Dr. Lee says they prove? Did you see the articles themselves? Or is it possible that his readings of these articles could be more along the lines of what Robert Ames has demonstrated in his critique? Based on Ames’ analysis of Lee’s claims, and on my own reading of some of Lee’s writings, I’d approach any of his comments very critically. As for Itchy’s accolades…we all know that Itchy sells the products Dr. Lee recommends, so she’s hardly a disinterested observer. My views on Itchy are well known and can be found on the web page listed below. Regards, vlhb…@aol.com http://members.aol.com/vlhb002/meno/itchy.html
Kathryn droz…@direct.ca
Response:
Vlhb002 wrote:
As for Itchy’s accolades…we all know that Itchy sells the products Dr. Lee recommends, so she’s hardly a disinterested observer. My views on Itchy are well known and can be found on the web page listed below.
As a point of possible interest: While surfing the Federal Trade Commission’s Web site <http://www.ftc.gov/
on an unrelated matter, I
found a link to the National Fraud Information Center, a project of National Consumers League (about as mainstream and well-respect a consumer-protection group as you’ll find). Their site is at: http://www.fraud.org/ and includes the following list, of which No.’s 5 and 6 seem particularly relevant to this group: —– Top Ten Subjects of Reports to Internet Fraud Watch 1997 1.Web Auctions – items bid for but never delivered by the sellers, value of items inflated, shills suspected of driving up bids, prices hiked after highest bids accepted; 2.Internet Services – charges for services that were supposedly free, payment for online and Internet services that were never provided or falsely represented; 3.General Merchandise – sales of everything from T-shirts to toys, calendars to collectibles, goods never delivered or not as advertised; 4.Computer Equipment/Software – sales of computer products that were never delivered or misrepresented;
5.Pyramids/MLMs – schemes in which any profits were made from recruiting others, not from sales of goods or services to the end-users; 6.Business Opportunities/Franchises – empty promises of big profits with little or no work by investing in pre-packaged businesses or franchise operations;
7.Work-at-Home Plans – materials and equipment sold with false promise of payment for piece work preformed at home; 8.Credit Card Issuing – false promises of credit cards to people with bad credit histories on payment of up-front fees; 9.Prizes/Sweepstakes – requests for up-front fees to claim winnings that were never awarded; 10.Book Sales – genealogies, self-help improvement books, and other publications that were never delivered or misrepresented. Source: U.S. Federal Trade Commission —- It’s a fascinating and useful site. I recommend it to anyone who is wary of being defrauded by Internet scam artists. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org
Response:
Hi mudo, The best part of your post was hearing that you are feeling so much better and that you are able to get out again. mudos…@direct.ca wrote:
I went because I have been using USP progesterone for 2 months and had read his book, and thought I should see what he had to say.
I am glad that you continue to report on your experiment, as promised.
He was literate, smart, organized,
Nobody has ever said he wasn’t any of these things. However, approach with caution, as this would also apply to most con men.
showed articles (recent ones) from JAMA and Lancet about these studies
You have been reading this newsgroup long enough to know that you have to look at the actual studies, not just the conclusions.
(they never made the newspapers or TV news)
And this doesn’t send up a red flag to you?
If you are against natural progesterone, at least you could heckle him. No one there did and I think that would be fun to watch. It was said in this newsgroup to me a while ago that he was wrong in saying progesterone is a precursor of estrogen.
I’m disappointed, mudo. Didn’t you ask him any of our questions?
I was wishing he would have a debate with people who think he is a charlatan. None of them were there. Or even with a "traditional" doctor – none of them were there either.
I would have thought in the interest of proving him right you would have questioned him as well.
Anyway, whether his theories are correct or not, the articles in JAMA and Lancet about the dangers of estrogen were from "established" medicine and they gave credence to his theories.
Only with blind faith. Myself, I’d certainly read them first.
Yes, I had noted 5 or 6 beneficial changes in my health that have become more and more pronounced in the 2 months I’ve been using it,
What are they?
Just wanted to share with you that I came away from his talk with very positive impressions.
Thank you. Keep doing your homework and keep feeling well. Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ
Response:
From: mudos…@direct.ca Date: 9/4/98 3:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: <35F04375.1…@direct.ca Forgive me if this is a little long but I am trying to reply in full to all the points that were raised here.
(And I snipped the rest because it was truly loooongggggg.) It sounds to me as if Mudospun has done what an intelligent and concerned person does about their health care. She did her research and has made a decision based on her findings. I certainly hope no one here now tries to convince her what she is doing for herself is wrong. Or, tries in some way to make her look foolish for her decisions about her own health care. No one here would do thaaaat……..would theyyyy? Anee
Response:
Mudospun wrote:
Forgive me if this is a little long but I am trying to reply in full to all the points that were raised here. Dr. Lee showed the publications and gave the dates.
[snip balance of post] I’m sure we can agree to disagree about the value of Dr. John Lee and of natural progesterone. What is clear is that you are working very hard to make a reasoned decision, one that is right for you, and no one can fault you for that. I still have a major problem with Lee, but that’s another topic for another time. Regards, vlhb…@aol.com
Response:
On Fri, 04 Sep 1998 12:45:54 -0700, mudos…@direct.ca wrote:
I can buy books in any bookstore I want. I can’t buy decent USP progesterone ANYWHERE in my province, at least so far. Maybe that will change and then I will be INTERNET-FREE.
I put up a different subject heading as this is not about Dr. Lee’s lecture. Mudospun and I live in the same area and so that is why I asked her about using prescription natural progesterone creme. Thank you for your thorough answer Mudospun, and yes if you want me to chip in with you maybe we can get the video. Anyway after reading your post I jumped up grabbed the yellow pages and phoned the Association of Naturopathic Physicians of British Columbia and asked the receptionist (or whoever answered the phone, she was more than a receptionist because she said she was involved in licensing the NDs.) if Naturopaths were able to prescribe in this province and I asked about natural progesterone. [I heard that this was the way to get natural progesterone at a menopause seminar I attended locally.] The answer I got was that no the natuopaths could not write a prescription for progesterone to take to your pharmacist, but they <could
provide the progesterone directly to you from their office,
if they felt you require it. Whether this is creme or oral or not I do not know, but it is legal. And at least it is dispensed under the supervision of some health professional . When I read the ads in the yellow pages I see several naturopaths advertise doing hormonal assessments. This sort of chokes me up giving out this type of information, but I would rather you spent your money within the health system than spend it on some money grabbing get rich internet scheme, Strange Dr. Lee did not mention this. But I think he is tied into the politics of the retail marketers of the cremes. Now the Lancet. You can get on Mudospun as a non subscriber registeration . This will give you to a only a limited access to the journal articles, but you will be able to get to the Natural progesterone study. Start by going to http://www.thelancet.com/newlancet/ and click under first time visitor. Then select non subscriber regisration. Now when you go to Tishy’s website and click on the lancet progesterone url it will take you to the study. http://members.tripod.com/~tishy_asm/mlm.html Glad to hear you are starting back to school. How exciting. Kathryn droz…@direct.ca
Response:
We are all ‘old’ enough to decide for ourselves after we read information and process it for our individual requirements. Here, here! I enjoy all points of view because in this way I learn new things and form new and sometimes different opinions.
Response:
Mudo, You go girl! I’m happy for you that you have been able to find the results you were looking for. To be honest I could care less if any women orders the cream where I get mine, as stated before I think we should all be educated on the material and then make the decision that is right for our bodies. I’m sorry that you are made to feel like you have to "prove" why you made the decision you did. Maybe someday this newsgroup will allow us all to share without being ridiculed about the choices we make with our own bodies. I have never ran across a more controversial subject. I wish you continued success. Itchy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -mudos…@direct.ca wrote:
Forgive me if this is a little long but I am trying to reply in full to all the points that were raised here. Dr. Lee showed the publications and gave the dates. I didn’t take notes but one of them was January 28, 1998. I remembered that because it was after his book was published; it wasn’t some hoary old test that had already been discussed. I tried some time ago to access Lancet on the internet to look up that study that was mentioned here but was refused as I am not a professional – apparently it is not available to lay people. I am also willing to agree that he may be wrong about some things, but his whole talk was about empirical evidence. That is what convinces me. Even so, the tests could all be bogus – of course. A lot in science and pseudo-science can be bogus and prove nothing. However, what a refreshing change from my doctors. My doctors (g.p.s, gynecologist, urologist, nephrologist and psychologist) have: – when I asked "what kind of estrogen" was in the cream prescribed for my urinary tract infections, replied "I don’t know." (it was synthetic). Dr. Lee explains each type: estriol, estradiol and estrone, and the differences between them, and explains that "estrogen" is a CATEGORY not a hormone. – when I asked for progesterone and testosterone tests, said "they are not important." – when I asked for FSH tests every so often said, "you don’t need one for another year." – when I asked to try natural thyroid hormone (dessicated) because I am on thyroid replacement and the synthroid does not work well for me, was told, "I never heard of it". There doesn’t seem to be much Dr. Lee hasn’t heard of, because HE READS. – when I listed my classic menopausal symptoms, brushed them off and said I could NOT be perimenopausal because my fsh was normal and thus I was "STILL A YOUNG THING’ (I am 49). One of the doctors, A WOMAN YOUNGER THAN ME, called me "young lady", dropped the bombshell that I had a kidney disease called IgA nephropathy but that "it will probably be OK and only needs to be checked again in a year". She only gave me the name of the disease because I asked. – when I ask for T3 and T4 tests as well as TSH, because my insurance company requires them, said "they are too expensive and not important." – often keep me waiting up to an hour and fifteen minutes for my appointments whether I come early or on time because they are overbooked. – when I discuss the pain from my ovarian cysts, say they will "keep an eye on them" with ultrasounds every few months, but if I can’t wait, they will insert a camera through my navel and explore around inside to see if there is anything really wrong – however there is a slight risk of puncturing some organ and hemorraging to death, so it is my choice. – consistently tell me it doesn’t matter what I eat. – consistently ignored my symptoms, saying they were "not significant", "just normal in people growing older" (including joint pains, insomnia, confusion, heat and cold intolerance, depression, anxiety). – consistenly prescribed Prozac, the "feel-good" drug, as the answer to all my symptoms. No, I will not take it. Well, this list could go on for volumes but I’ll stop at this. What I am getting at is that this retired doctor was a dream doctor compared to any I’ve encountered. He has an open mind, he reads all the latest journals and findings and studies – my doctors just know what they were taught in med school 15, 20 or 30 years ago – he puts two and two together and he used his intuition to try out new methods on his patients rather than continuing to worship at the feet of the PHARMACEUTICAL companies. A note about Premarin. Everyone has read about the dangers and the benefits. It is one of the three most widely prescribed pills in the U.S. It works for many women. He explained why – it contains a lot more than estrogen from the pregnant mares’ urine. The urine also is chock full of natural progesterone which is contained in huge amounts in pregnant mammals, as we all know. In reply to this post: 6. He probably talked about how women start to ovulate less during peri, and that results in lower progesterone levels. Well what does he think menopause is anyway? If progesterone was beneficial post menoause don’t you think we would have evolved to have it? He said that the ovaries of the female embryo are fully developed and already contain all the eggs at the 18th day after conception, and that there is damage to those ovaries if the pregnant mother eats food tainted with DDT (which would have been even in OUR mother’s food), or any of the more modern pesticides nowadays, as well as breathing in petrochemicals, and other environmental pollutants which are man-made. He said this (as well as estrogens fed to cows which remain in the meat we eat, plastics, etc.) is what caused the progesterone to be inadequate in later life; that it is not natural to be estrogen dominant/progesterone deficient. As for the testosterone in men, fertility is 50% less than it was 30 years ago, due to the xenoestrogens (a concept he didn’t make up – I saw it on a news show about 4 years ago, how by chance it was discovered that a plastic test tube made cancer cells grow because of the estrogen-like substance in the plastic). Evolution has been screwed up by the many chemicals in our environment. He noted he had not been to Vancouver in several years and at that time the mountains were clear and beautiful. Now he was shocked to see a dirty haze and said it looked just like San Diego. These petrochemicals are also a source of the false estrogen which makes both men and women have problems with their reproductive systems. As for the point by point reply continually asking if any of this proves "otc progesterone creams" were of any benefit, this was my exact question to him. We were invited to put questions on index cards for him to answer at the end of the lecture. However, it ran over, the room was rented for a finite period of time, and he could not answer each and every question. The woman who organized the event chose a few for him to answer. Mine wasn’t among them, but he did talk about the subject quite a bit in relation to other questions. Here’s the gist of it. In Canada natural progesterone is not available. He had an appointment to meet with the Minister of Health but the government changed just before the appointment and the new person in charge did not want to meet with him and did not honour the appointment. He made another one with someone else in the department and found it was a young man who didn’t understand anything he was saying and would not give any commitment to studying the request for a change; anyway he is still trying to talk to the Canadian government about allowing progesterone in the country. The idea that I have to buy my progesterone over the internet bothers me a lot, and yet not quite enough to give it up after having done so well with my experiment. I would rather get a prescription for it but that would be like finding gold in Placerville a hundred and thirty-nine years after the gold rush. It’s not going to happen. I’ve asked doctors and have been met with contempt. I am still looking for a doctor who will take my request seriously and prescribe it. PHARMACIES CAN PROVIDE IT if the doctors ask. The wild yam cream I bought at the health food store here does not even contain USP progesterone. IT is the scam. It has diosgenin only, which is not usable by human tissues; does not turn into progesterone. People who make money off the internet, yes I hate them too. I find them repellant , greedy, amoral users, because we KNOW many of them have only one motive: profit – similar to the drug lords/ brothel owners tht are proliferating in my city, but I differentiate between the products offered. If I want something (and not heroin or cocaine, but a natural hormone which I have studied and believe to be effective and harmless) and it’s available by mail order from another country and Dr. Lee, Ann Louise Gittleman and others recommend it (giving a list of at least 20 brands to choose from), then I will get it. I don’t have to order books from "amazon.com". I can buy books in any bookstore I want. I can’t buy decent USP progesterone ANYWHERE in my province, at least so far. Maybe that will change and then I will be INTERNET-FREE. I don’t like anyone profiting from me, I don’t even want to pay rent to some greedy landlord to pay their mortgage, but HELLO, I have to meet my needs whether or not someone profits from me. I don’t like giving Safeway my money either. I don’t want fat cats profiting from me, but I HAVE TO LIVE a halfway decent life. It is enough that the big pharmaceuticals are fat and rich from millions of women taking Premarin, Provera, Xanax, Luvox, Prozac, Synthroid. Why is this not a scam? Read "The Menopause Industry." A very enlightening book. Anyway – a few months ago I was on the verge of taking Premarin because I was in tears from the misery of my perimenopause. I was angry at
… read more »
Response:
Forgive me if this is a little long but I am trying to reply in full to all the points that were raised here. Dr. Lee showed the publications and gave the dates. I didn’t take notes but one of them was January 28, 1998. I remembered that because it was after his book was published; it wasn’t some hoary old test that had already been discussed. I tried some time ago to access Lancet on the internet to look up that study that was mentioned here but was refused as I am not a professional – apparently it is not available to lay people. I am also willing to agree that he may be wrong about some things, but his whole talk was about empirical evidence. That is what convinces me. Even so, the tests could all be bogus – of course. A lot in science and pseudo-science can be bogus and prove nothing. However, what a refreshing change from my doctors. My doctors (g.p.s, gynecologist, urologist, nephrologist and psychologist) have: – when I asked "what kind of estrogen" was in the cream prescribed for my urinary tract infections, replied "I don’t know." (it was synthetic). Dr. Lee explains each type: estriol, estradiol and estrone, and the differences between them, and explains that "estrogen" is a CATEGORY not a hormone. – when I asked for progesterone and testosterone tests, said "they are not important." – when I asked for FSH tests every so often said, "you don’t need one for another year." – when I asked to try natural thyroid hormone (dessicated) because I am on thyroid replacement and the synthroid does not work well for me, was told, "I never heard of it". There doesn’t seem to be much Dr. Lee hasn’t heard of, because HE READS. – when I listed my classic menopausal symptoms, brushed them off and said I could NOT be perimenopausal because my fsh was normal and thus I was "STILL A YOUNG THING’ (I am 49). One of the doctors, A WOMAN YOUNGER THAN ME, called me "young lady", dropped the bombshell that I had a kidney disease called IgA nephropathy but that "it will probably be OK and only needs to be checked again in a year". She only gave me the name of the disease because I asked. – when I ask for T3 and T4 tests as well as TSH, because my insurance company requires them, said "they are too expensive and not important." – often keep me waiting up to an hour and fifteen minutes for my appointments whether I come early or on time because they are overbooked. – when I discuss the pain from my ovarian cysts, say they will "keep an eye on them" with ultrasounds every few months, but if I can’t wait, they will insert a camera through my navel and explore around inside to see if there is anything really wrong – however there is a slight risk of puncturing some organ and hemorraging to death, so it is my choice. – consistently tell me it doesn’t matter what I eat. – consistently ignored my symptoms, saying they were "not significant", "just normal in people growing older" (including joint pains, insomnia, confusion, heat and cold intolerance, depression, anxiety). – consistenly prescribed Prozac, the "feel-good" drug, as the answer to all my symptoms. No, I will not take it. Well, this list could go on for volumes but I’ll stop at this. What I am getting at is that this retired doctor was a dream doctor compared to any I’ve encountered. He has an open mind, he reads all the latest journals and findings and studies – my doctors just know what they were taught in med school 15, 20 or 30 years ago – he puts two and two together and he used his intuition to try out new methods on his patients rather than continuing to worship at the feet of the PHARMACEUTICAL companies. A note about Premarin. Everyone has read about the dangers and the benefits. It is one of the three most widely prescribed pills in the U.S. It works for many women. He explained why – it contains a lot more than estrogen from the pregnant mares’ urine. The urine also is chock full of natural progesterone which is contained in huge amounts in pregnant mammals, as we all know. In reply to this post:
6. He probably talked about how women start to ovulate less during peri, and that results in lower progesterone levels. Well what does he think menopause is anyway? If progesterone was beneficial post menoause don’t you think we would have evolved to have it?
He said that the ovaries of the female embryo are fully developed and already contain all the eggs at the 18th day after conception, and that there is damage to those ovaries if the pregnant mother eats food tainted with DDT (which would have been even in OUR mother’s food), or any of the more modern pesticides nowadays, as well as breathing in petrochemicals, and other environmental pollutants which are man-made. He said this (as well as estrogens fed to cows which remain in the meat we eat, plastics, etc.) is what caused the progesterone to be inadequate in later life; that it is not natural to be estrogen dominant/progesterone deficient. As for the testosterone in men, fertility is 50% less than it was 30 years ago, due to the xenoestrogens (a concept he didn’t make up – I saw it on a news show about 4 years ago, how by chance it was discovered that a plastic test tube made cancer cells grow because of the estrogen-like substance in the plastic). Evolution has been screwed up by the many chemicals in our environment. He noted he had not been to Vancouver in several years and at that time the mountains were clear and beautiful. Now he was shocked to see a dirty haze and said it looked just like San Diego. These petrochemicals are also a source of the false estrogen which makes both men and women have problems with their reproductive systems. As for the point by point reply continually asking if any of this proves "otc progesterone creams" were of any benefit, this was my exact question to him. We were invited to put questions on index cards for him to answer at the end of the lecture. However, it ran over, the room was rented for a finite period of time, and he could not answer each and every question. The woman who organized the event chose a few for him to answer. Mine wasn’t among them, but he did talk about the subject quite a bit in relation to other questions. Here’s the gist of it. In Canada natural progesterone is not available. He had an appointment to meet with the Minister of Health but the government changed just before the appointment and the new person in charge did not want to meet with him and did not honour the appointment. He made another one with someone else in the department and found it was a young man who didn’t understand anything he was saying and would not give any commitment to studying the request for a change; anyway he is still trying to talk to the Canadian government about allowing progesterone in the country. The idea that I have to buy my progesterone over the internet bothers me a lot, and yet not quite enough to give it up after having done so well with my experiment. I would rather get a prescription for it but that would be like finding gold in Placerville a hundred and thirty-nine years after the gold rush. It’s not going to happen. I’ve asked doctors and have been met with contempt. I am still looking for a doctor who will take my request seriously and prescribe it. PHARMACIES CAN PROVIDE IT if the doctors ask. The wild yam cream I bought at the health food store here does not even contain USP progesterone. IT is the scam. It has diosgenin only, which is not usable by human tissues; does not turn into progesterone. People who make money off the internet, yes I hate them too. I find them repellant , greedy, amoral users, because we KNOW many of them have only one motive: profit – similar to the drug lords/ brothel owners tht are proliferating in my city, but I differentiate between the products offered. If I want something (and not heroin or cocaine, but a natural hormone which I have studied and believe to be effective and harmless) and it’s available by mail order from another country and Dr. Lee, Ann Louise Gittleman and others recommend it (giving a list of at least 20 brands to choose from), then I will get it. I don’t have to order books from "amazon.com". I can buy books in any bookstore I want. I can’t buy decent USP progesterone ANYWHERE in my province, at least so far. Maybe that will change and then I will be INTERNET-FREE. I don’t like anyone profiting from me, I don’t even want to pay rent to some greedy landlord to pay their mortgage, but HELLO, I have to meet my needs whether or not someone profits from me. I don’t like giving Safeway my money either. I don’t want fat cats profiting from me, but I HAVE TO LIVE a halfway decent life. It is enough that the big pharmaceuticals are fat and rich from millions of women taking Premarin, Provera, Xanax, Luvox, Prozac, Synthroid. Why is this not a scam? Read "The Menopause Industry." A very enlightening book. Anyway – a few months ago I was on the verge of taking Premarin because I was in tears from the misery of my perimenopause. I was angry at the statements in Gittleman’s book against Premarin. I didn’t care if the horses were abused. I didn’t care if estrogen was dangerous – I just wanted to feel well again. Iwould risk stroke, blood clots and cancer to feel well. But rational thought returned. Reading and reading more made me stay away from the Premarin. And I always will. In fact I would rather take nothing, give up the cream also, than take a pharmaceutical preparation that helps but also harms women. The cream (or gel, or anything which is well absorbed) has been proven to be the most efficient way to get the progesterone into the bloodstream. Taking the hormone by mouth you have to take ten times as much and the liver has to process it and most of it is excreted. The fact that it is absorbed transdermally was demonstrated in a test Dr. Lee told about. Progesterone levels in the blood and in the breast tissue were measured before and after a course of progesterone use by … read more »
Response:
Dr. Lee appeared at a hotel in my city last week and gave a 5 – hour lecture (with one hour break for lunch), and answered questions. I went because I have been using USP progesterone for 2 months and had read his book, and thought I should see what he had to say. I didn’t expect much but a discussion of the book, but I found him a good speaker who spoke eloquently and was not fazed by questions shouted out in the middle of his talk – he answered them fully and then carried on where he left off. I didn’t think I could sit through 5 hours but I did with ease, mesmerized and leaning forward in my seat as he showed the effects of Provera vs. natural progesterone on the arteries of the heart, tetc. He was literate, smart, organized, but mostly he gave case study after case study about progesterone and estrogen and their effects on cancer, heart attacks and osteoporosis; showed articles (recent ones) from JAMA and Lancet about these studies (they never made the newspapers or TV news) and also talked about other conditions besides menopause – if he comes to your city I would recommend seeing him. If you are against natural progesterone, at least you could heckle him. No one there did and I think that would be fun to watch. It was said in this newsgroup to me a while ago that he was wrong in saying progesterone is a precursor of estrogen. During the talk he said that progesterone is also a precursor of testosterone and is the master hormone, and that men over 60 should use it to increase testosterone and prevent prostate cancer. I was wishing he would have a debate with people who think he is a charlatan. None of them were there. Or even with a "traditional" doctor – none of them were there either. Anyway, whether his theories are correct or not, the articles in JAMA and Lancet about the dangers of estrogen were from "established" medicine and they gave credence to his theories. He had a scientific and logical answer for everything and did not appear to be an unbalanced fanatic. I have renewed faith in the progesterone. Yes, I had noted 5 or 6 beneficial changes in my health that have become more and more pronounced in the 2 months I’ve been using it, but was assuming they were "placebo", cyclical, or some other explanation. Now I have a renewed faith in progesterone and will continue to use it. And I will not be taking estrogen. Just wanted to share with you that I came away from his talk with very positive impressions.
Response:
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( Basically you had med induced hyperthyroidism. I know a few people when they had hyperthyroidism, suffered from high anxiety and panic attacks. Take care 
) Take care, Cathey — Cathey Magill http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Haven/1218/ http://www.crosswinds.net/~chinbit/index.html (temporarily down!) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I want to wish everyone a happy Easter, also. I will be spending Easter in the hospital with my Mom. She is having heart problems and has been in there a few days. Carol Ann 