Question:

Good question. I have a feeling the answer would be another chicken/egg answer. The first neuro I ever went to who helped me with preventives ordered an echocardiogram. The way HE put it was that MVP is more common in women with Migraine. However, with some of the more current researce on other heart defects and Migraine, I doubt that anyone is very sure at this point. How are ya, Kadee? Teri

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mitral Valve Prolapse is also more common in women with Migraine. Teri Or migraine is more common in women with mitral valve prolapse? Kadee

Response:

Jill, I’ve had a couple panic attacks in my life, but mine were directly related to a depression I was in after the death of my dad from cancer.  I had gone fairly deep into the depression and was already hypoglycemic, losing weight, etc.  I just had a couple, but scared me to death.  After my depression was gone, they never returned. That’s only my experience of where they came from…oh, and I was under considerable emotional stress at the time with a home remodel and my 15 year old niece came to live with us (a very troubled teen).  So that might have been another factor for me. Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – stress and being overwelmed.  You seem to have some small kids around the house, and that’s (by definition) unpredictable and stressful.  Can you get some help for a few hours each day, so you can rest and center yourself? No kids, just my husband Truly I can’t figure out my panic attacks. As in why I have them at a particular time. The first one I had while pregnant was after I quit work and it was at bedtime- my husband was already asleep, I wasn’t sleepy so had stayed up a bit later. I noticed that feeling of not being able to breathe and immediately recognized it as a pending panic attack, so I started trying to breathe slowly, count to 4, breathe in slowly, hold it for 4, etc.But my heart was starting to race and I was starting to tremble. I don’t get it….it felt JUST like I was being buried alive. I had no reason to feel that way- no job stress, no commitments, nothing to do but relax, something I had looked forward to forever. I can only guess it is simply hormonal. It felt like too much adrenaline.

Response:

Do you possibly have Mitral Valve Prolapse?

Been there and done that and I’ll be darned if I know what to believe. In high school my p-doc diagnosed me with this and did an echocardiogram and said I do have it, but not very bad. He ordered me to take antibiotics before having dental work etc. He said he could SEE it on the echocardiogram. fast forward to years later when I had a panic attack and my heart was beating so fast….for days after the panic attack went away, my heart felt like it was skipping beats and I felt weak etc so to be safe my new p-doc (not really new…I just had mved away from where I lived inhigh school as a woreking adult…this was an office I had seen for several years already)…they referred me to a really good heart center, which the local hospital happens to have…..they did an echocardiogram and said it turned up perfectly normal, NO MVP. So. ??? I have no idea truly. How can one see it and then a heart center says a lot of people were misdiagnosed and I really don’t have it? I still have the symptoms…..they hooked me also to a heart monitor for 24 hours and told me to press a button to record when I have palpitatiins…they said at the time I pushed nothing irregular showed up. All I know is I DO frequently feel like I am skipping beats, fatigued, etc. J

Response:

Mitral Valve Prolapse is also more common in women with Migraine. Teri

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Truly I can’t figure out my panic attacks. As in why I have them at a particular time. The first one I had while pregnant was after I quit work and it was at bedtime- my husband was already asleep, I wasn’t sleepy so had stayed up a bit later. I noticed that feeling of not being able to breathe and immediately recognized it as a pending panic attack, so I started trying to breathe slowly, count to 4, breathe in slowly, hold it for 4, etc.But my heart was starting to race and I was starting to tremble. Do you possibly have Mitral Valve Prolapse? It is not a problem for most people but it seems to be more common in people with dysautonomia which can cause symptoms which people mistake for panic. Also my allergy reactions are often similar to some panic symptoms. Now I realize that it is just the chemicals flooding my body and that helps me to stay calm. Check out http://www.mvprolapse.com/dysautonomia.html http://www.mvpsupport.com/ http://www.anxiety-panic-stress.com/ http://www.algy.com/anxiety/menu.shtml Magnesium has helped settle down my erratic heart and has helped with dysautonomia. Co enzyme Q10 has also helped. Kadee

Response:

. I just wonder at what point is something necessary??<

Just always keep in mind that stress can be JUST as bad for the baby as medicine. Would phenergan be known to be safer than klonopin?? How do they know?<

Like many have said..they don’t "know" because it’s not tested on pregnant women. However, phenergan is prescibed MUCH MORE frequently for pregnant women then Klonopin. In fact, I’ve never heard of doctors actually prescribing Klonopin(I know you weren’t prescribed it). Phenergan, however, is often prescribed for women who have hyperemisis gravidum and for women who have bad morning sickness, just not as bad as hyperemisis. It’s along the same lines as Zofran and Reglan… Ashli

Response:

It felt like too much adrenaline.

That’s exactly what it is.  Bad for the noggin too.  Don’t go too hard on yourself…   For some of us, that just the way it is.  It sounds like you’re already onto some good coping strategies. BTW, I heard of message for pregnant women.  There’s a special table to lie on that supports your tummy.  It may help relax you.  Meditation (bonus points for sitting on the beach or waterfront).  Spinning clay pots.  Makig bread..  Mind melds with a friendly vulcans (husband, ok)..   Try to keep your mind focused on productive activities… Erik

Response:

stress and being overwelmed.  You seem to have some small kids around the house, and that’s (by definition) unpredictable and stressful.  Can you get some help for a few hours each day, so you can rest and center yourself?

No kids, just my husband Truly I can’t figure out my panic attacks. As in why I have them at a particular time. The first one I had while pregnant was after I quit work and it was at bedtime- my husband was already asleep, I wasn’t sleepy so had stayed up a bit later. I noticed that feeling of not being able to breathe and immediately recognized it as a pending panic attack, so I started trying to breathe slowly, count to 4, breathe in slowly, hold it for 4, etc.But my heart was starting to race and I was starting to tremble. I don’t get it….it felt JUST like I was being buried alive. I had no reason to feel that way- no job stress, no commitments, nothing to do but relax, something I had looked forward to forever. I can only guess it is simply hormonal. It felt like too much adrenaline.

Response:

I’m by no means qualified, but I’d hazard a guess that you’re on the right track.   PRN (as needed) and as little as possible is a good strategy.  It’s not good for the baby for you to be in a constant state of panic, and this has been documented with a number of studies.  If you can strike a balance, that would be the best bet. I’d also take a good look at your life.  Is there anyway you can reduce stress and being overwelmed.  You seem to have some small kids around the house, and that’s (by definition) unpredictable and stressful.  Can you get some help for a few hours each day, so you can rest and center yourself?  Grandma?  Preschool program at a local church?  etc? Erik – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How true…imagine trying to do testing on pregnant women.  How awful would that be? Michelle Yes, I was discussing that with a pharmacist. Like he told me, how many pregnant women would volunteer for something that would do who knows what to their baby…and what company would want to use unborn babies as guinea pigs? I just assume that what little is known about the effects of drugs on unborn babies is because the mother HAD to have the drug or had a compelling reason to risk taking it. If someone gets really bad migraines while pregnant they’d have to try something, even if they worry for their baby, if it gets bad enough. I don’t want to experiment with medications. I just wonder at what point is something necessary?? How bad do I have to feel in order to consider going back on Paxil, or should I tough it out? etc…I did use one Klonopin for a protracted panic attack and have not had one since. I noticed a surprising side effect of that one klonopin- NO nausea, so about an hour after I took it and was calm, I could eat and not be sick. I called my doctor and asked for something for nausea a few days later- I refuse to touch Klonopin unless I have a really protracted panic attack that won’t go away with breathing or other efforts. Knock on wood I haven’t even come clsoe to having one since then. I still plan to discuss this with my doctor next week (OB). Then, that’s where I got confused- the doctor, when I told her about this, prescribed phenergan. ? Would phenergan be known to be safer than klonopin?? How do they know?

Response:

Jill, Part of the problem is that they can’t do studies on pregnant women. So, all they have to go by is animal studies or  possibly experience from patients who have been ill enough while pregnant that it was decided to chance the meds. With Category C, it’s not that they know the meds to cause a problem, but they don’t know them to be safe either. Teri

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From the prescribing info for Paxil: "Pregnancy Category C. There are no adequate and well-controlled studies in pregnant women. Because animal reproduction studies are not always predictive of human response, this drug should be used during pregnancy only if the potential benefit justifies the potential risk to the fetus." Teri Thanls for posting that. You see, doctors are confusing me. I don’t know how they get their lists of safe drugs for pregnancy.  IIRC, Klonopin, Paxil, Zantac, and Phenergan are all in the Class C…but the doctors claim Paxil and Zantac are absolutely, perfectly fine and will give them to given it to me to help with my nausea. My Desk Reference specifically says phenergan is not known to be safe during pregnancy. How do doctors decide what to give you??? It just seems to me that Paxil and Phenergan and Zantac are not proven to be any more safe than Klonopin and some other drugs. The doctors are so leery of some drugs and so happy to prescribe others. ???! It’s confusing because I want to know that my baby is not getting anything harmful.

Response:

You’re welcome, Michelle. Just took a couple of minutes to look it up. Teri

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, Teri…didn’t realize that. Michelle From the prescribing info for Paxil: "Pregnancy Category C. There are no adequate and well-controlled studies in pregnant women. Because animal reproduction studies are not always predictive of human response, this drug should be used during pregnancy only if the potential benefit justifies the potential risk to the fetus." Teri That’s great, Jill.  Can you not at least go back on your Paxil? Michelle Now I am approx. 8 weeks along- not official since I don’t go for my first sonogram until a week from Monday. I still have not had a single migraine while pregnant! Yay. So migraine medication/pain relief has not even been an issue for me. (What has been an issue is I am back to having panic attacks since I stopped the Paxil/Klonopin combo I was using to prevent migraines/anxiety). But no headaches!! Jill

Response:

How true…imagine trying to do testing on pregnant women.  How awful would that be? Michelle

Yes, I was discussing that with a pharmacist. Like he told me, how many pregnant women would volunteer for something that would do who knows what to their baby…and what company would want to use unborn babies as guinea pigs? I just assume that what little is known about the effects of drugs on unborn babies is because the mother HAD to have the drug or had a compelling reason to risk taking it. If someone gets really bad migraines while pregnant they’d have to try something, even if they worry for their baby, if it gets bad enough. I don’t want to experiment with medications. I just wonder at what point is something necessary?? How bad do I have to feel in order to consider going back on Paxil, or should I tough it out? etc…I did use one Klonopin for a protracted panic attack and have not had one since. I noticed a surprising side effect of that one klonopin- NO nausea, so about an hour after I took it and was calm, I could eat and not be sick. I called my doctor and asked for something for nausea a few days later- I refuse to touch Klonopin unless I have a really protracted panic attack that won’t go away with breathing or other efforts. Knock on wood I haven’t even come clsoe to having one since then. I still plan to discuss this with my doctor next week (OB). Then, that’s where I got confused- the doctor, when I told her about this, prescribed phenergan. ? Would phenergan be known to be safer than klonopin?? How do they know?

Response:

How true…imagine trying to do testing on pregnant women.  How awful would that be? Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Unfortunately, there is not enough evidence to cover all facets of drugs and pregnancy, so this is a highly subjective area.  What’s apparent is that there is mounting evidence that quite a bit of brain development occurs during pregnancy so that any seditives such as pain killers or benzos *may* have a adverse effect on the baby.  To cloud the issue further, they don’t know how much or how often would make it harmful. A common example is alcohol.  It used to be recommended to drink a glass of wine a day during pregnancy, and there was scant evidence that this was harmful.  However, heavy drinking is obviously dangerous as it results in fetal alcohol syndrome.  So, how safe is safe?  The current recommendation is zero. One doctor will prescribe codiene during the first trimester, but not after.  The next won’t prescribe codiene at all.  It’s all based on the doctor’s subjective decision and perhaps their malpractice insurance coverage as well. Erik From the prescribing info for Paxil: "Pregnancy Category C. There are no adequate and well-controlled studies in pregnant women. Because animal reproduction studies are not always predictive of human response, this drug should be used during pregnancy only if the potential benefit justifies the potential risk to the fetus." Teri Thanls for posting that. You see, doctors are confusing me. I don’t know how they get their lists of safe drugs for pregnancy.  IIRC, Klonopin, Paxil, Zantac, and Phenergan are all in the Class C…but the doctors claim Paxil and Zantac are absolutely, perfectly fine and will give them to given it to me to help with my nausea. My Desk Reference specifically says phenergan is not known to be safe during pregnancy. How do doctors decide what to give you??? It just seems to me that Paxil and Phenergan and Zantac are not proven to be any more safe than Klonopin and some other drugs. The doctors are so leery of some drugs and so happy to prescribe others. ???! It’s confusing because I want to know that my baby is not getting anything harmful.

Response:

Unfortunately, there is not enough evidence to cover all facets of drugs and pregnancy, so this is a highly subjective area.  What’s apparent is that there is mounting evidence that quite a bit of brain development occurs during pregnancy so that any seditives such as pain killers or benzos *may* have a adverse effect on the baby.  To cloud the issue further, they don’t know how much or how often would make it harmful. A common example is alcohol.  It used to be recommended to drink a glass of wine a day during pregnancy, and there was scant evidence that this was harmful.  However, heavy drinking is obviously dangerous as it results in fetal alcohol syndrome.  So, how safe is safe?  The current recommendation is zero. One doctor will prescribe codiene during the first trimester, but not after.  The next won’t prescribe codiene at all.  It’s all based on the doctor’s subjective decision and perhaps their malpractice insurance coverage as well. Erik – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From the prescribing info for Paxil: "Pregnancy Category C. There are no adequate and well-controlled studies in pregnant women. Because animal reproduction studies are not always predictive of human response, this drug should be used during pregnancy only if the potential benefit justifies the potential risk to the fetus." Teri Thanls for posting that. You see, doctors are confusing me. I don’t know how they get their lists of safe drugs for pregnancy.  IIRC, Klonopin, Paxil, Zantac, and Phenergan are all in the Class C…but the doctors claim Paxil and Zantac are absolutely, perfectly fine and will give them to it to me to help with my nausea. My Desk Reference specifically says phenergan is not known to be safe during pregnancy. How do doctors decide what to give you??? It just seems to me that Paxil and Phenergan and Zantac are not proven to be any more safe than Klonopin and some other drugs. The doctors are so leery of some drugs and so happy to prescribe others. ???! It’s confusing because I want to know that my baby is not getting anything harmful.

Response:

From the prescribing info for Paxil: "Pregnancy Category C. There are no adequate and well-controlled studies in pregnant women. Because animal reproduction studies are not always predictive of human response, this drug should be used during pregnancy only if the potential benefit justifies the potential risk to the fetus." Teri

Thanls for posting that. You see, doctors are confusing me. I don’t know how they get their lists of safe drugs for pregnancy.  IIRC, Klonopin, Paxil, Zantac, and Phenergan are all in the Class C…but the doctors claim Paxil and Zantac are absolutely, perfectly fine and will give them to it to me to help with my nausea. My Desk Reference specifically says phenergan is not known to be safe during pregnancy. How do doctors decide what to give you??? It just seems to me that Paxil and Phenergan and Zantac are not proven to be any more safe than Klonopin and some other drugs. The doctors are so leery of some drugs and so happy to prescribe others. ???! It’s confusing because I want to know that my baby is not getting anything harmful.

Response:

Thanks, Teri…didn’t realize that. Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From the prescribing info for Paxil: "Pregnancy Category C. There are no adequate and well-controlled studies in pregnant women. Because animal reproduction studies are not always predictive of human response, this drug should be used during pregnancy only if the potential benefit justifies the potential risk to the fetus." Teri That’s great, Jill.  Can you not at least go back on your Paxil? Michelle Now I am approx. 8 weeks along- not official since I don’t go for my first sonogram until a week from Monday. I still have not had a single migraine while pregnant! Yay. So migraine medication/pain relief has not even been an issue for me. (What has been an issue is I am back to having panic attacks since I stopped the Paxil/Klonopin combo I was using to prevent migraines/anxiety). But no headaches!! Jill

Response:

BTW, many women feel the best they have ever felt while pregnant. Not just speaking about migraines.  Makes sense, nature wants to reproduce.

Response:

From the prescribing info for Paxil: "Pregnancy Category C. There are no adequate and well-controlled studies in pregnant women. Because animal reproduction studies are not always predictive of human response, this drug should be used during pregnancy only if the potential benefit justifies the potential risk to the fetus." Teri

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s great, Jill.  Can you not at least go back on your Paxil? Michelle Now I am approx. 8 weeks along- not official since I don’t go for my first sonogram until a week from Monday. I still have not had a single migraine while pregnant! Yay. So migraine medication/pain relief has not even been an issue for me. (What has been an issue is I am back to having panic attacks since I stopped the Paxil/Klonopin combo I was using to prevent migraines/anxiety). But no headaches!! Jill

Response:

That’s great, Jill.  Can you not at least go back on your Paxil? Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now I am approx. 8 weeks along- not official since I don’t go for my first sonogram until a week from Monday. I still have not had a single migraine while pregnant! Yay. So migraine medication/pain relief has not even been an issue for me. (What has been an issue is I am back to having panic attacks since I stopped the Paxil/Klonopin combo I was using to prevent migraines/anxiety). But no headaches!! Jill

Response:

Now I am approx. 8 weeks along- not official since I don’t go for my first sonogram until a week from Monday. I still have not had a single migraine while pregnant! Yay. So migraine medication/pain relief has not even been an issue for me. (What has been an issue is I am back to having panic attacks since I stopped the Paxil/Klonopin combo I was using to prevent migraines/anxiety). But no headaches!! Jill

Response:

Question:

I was wondering if there are any women on here who was on Depakote while pregnant.  I read about some side effects that can happen to the fetus.  I’m not pregnant (and hope not to be for a long time) but would like to have children one day..so I guess my question is if I have a baby, will that baby be born with birth defects because I’m on Depakote??

Response:

As long as you talk to your doc before getting pregnant, you should be able to plan a healthy pregnancy for both you and the baby.  I’m not sure about Depakote, but I know there are sz meds you can take while pregnant.  Be sure to discuss with your doctor long before trying to get pregnant.  Also, my doctor advised me to use Folic Acid. I have 2 kids and do not plan to have anymore, but you can never be 100% sure other than abstinence (And hey I’m married, I don’t have to be good anymore!).  Folic Acid reduces the risks of birth defects.  All women of child bearing age should take it every day, especially is you are at an increased risk for birth defects, ie taking seizure meds.

Response:

Hi Cyndi, As you can see, I’m not a woman, but I can perhaps help you, and have a nice days with your futur children. Effectively,I had a traetment only with Valpro

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would rather just tell my doctor that I want to try non medication methods of beating ADD psychiatrists don’t do non-medication treatment anymore, at least the bulk share your point is? If you went to a surgeon and asked for a nonsurgical treatment of a disorder, would you have gone to the right place? Would that be the surgeons fault? This must be one of THE worst analogies you have produced If a psychiatrist has prostituted themself to the extent they ignore the range of treatments available, and has degenerated into a drug prescription machine, what would you blame?  ` Psychiatrists are MD’s. You blame them for acting as MD’s? on the contrary I blame some of them for NOT acting like MDs MDs do not neccessarily leap for the prescription pad and have been known to actually listen to some of their patients and take their wishes and situation into consideration. well, that’s been my experience of how psychiatrists work too so i guess we are on the same page. Listening or not listening is not a function of what type of medicine you practice–there are jerks in all fields. very true, though I suspect good listeners may be born rather than trained.

And yet, you suggest that ADHD is environmental, possibly not genetic. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.mdpsych.org/SP97_gKlee.htm The cottage industry era of psychiatry is ending as profit driven corporations take over. Psychiatry is rapidly undergoing industrialization, while simultaneously being thrust into the information age. Office based, solo private practitioners are disappearing. Standardization and productivity are emphasized, as technology replaces art. The artisan is being replaced by the assembly line. There may soon be few traces left of the previous system. Before this era is entirely lost, let’s look back to a pivotal time in the history of Maryland psychiatry. In 1965, I conducted a survey of private psychiatric practice in Maryland with the assistance of Jean Warthen, PhD. An American Psychiatric News summary of the findings will be presented, but first I will provide a context. This was the time of "THE GREAT SOCIETY". America was attempting to forge a new world. The defense industry prospered, as we fought a war in Viet Nam. Social consciousness was rising at home. Medicare legislation was passed. Private health insurance had begun paying for a significant share of psychiatric treatment. The "War Against Mental Illness" had begun. In psychiatry, we were confident that we had the necessary weapons to win the war. The psychoanalytic movement was strong and many other forms of psychotherapy were developing. The psychopharmacology revolution had begun over a decade earlier and mental hospitals were being emptied of long term patients. Neuroscience was rapidly developing. With generous federal funding, the community mental health movement was taking shape. <clip In the 1960s, as the war against mental illness was launched, the future of psychiatry seemed bright. We have come a long way since then. Where are we now? Is the war being won? Many believe that it is being won by managed care, and lost by psychiatry and the mentally ill. Whatever flaws there may have been in the past, the high rate for psychotherapy in 1965 suggests that psychiatrists listened to patients. The listening was part of psychotherapy. There is less and less time for that now as psychotherapy gives way to brief, infrequent "med checks". This is a serious mistake, which may contribute to the rising numbers of malpractice suits. Drugs are not a substitute for listening. Even clinical psychopharmacology requires a thorough knowledge of the patient and an ongoing therapeutic relationship. If it’s just a matter of writing prescriptions, someone else can do it as well. "Parity for Mental Health" is of little value unless the psychiatrist is in charge of treatment and spends time with the patient. The psychiatrist who is no more than an assembly line worker is easily dispensable. We were told in medical school that the patient is our best teacher. Before reaching for the prescription pad, listen to the patient. Listen and learn.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would rather just tell my doctor that I want to try non medication methods of beating ADD psychiatrists don’t do non-medication treatment anymore, at least the bulk share and if you went to a psychologist for such treatment, most likely he would have reservations if you said you had ADD seek a referreal for treatment on www.mindfreedom.org www.cchr.org www.breggin.com

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would rather just tell my doctor that I want to try non medication methods of beating ADD psychiatrists don’t do non-medication treatment anymore, at least the bulk share your point is? If you went to a surgeon and asked for a nonsurgical treatment of a disorder, would you have gone to the right place? Would that be the surgeons fault? This must be one of THE worst analogies you have produced If a psychiatrist has prostituted themself to the extent they ignore the range of treatments available, and has degenerated into a drug prescription machine, what would you blame?  ` Psychiatrists are MD’s. You blame them for acting as MD’s? on the contrary I blame some of them for NOT acting like MDs MDs do not neccessarily leap for the prescription pad and have been known to actually listen to some of their patients and take their wishes and situation into consideration. well, that’s been my experience of how psychiatrists work too so i guess we are on the same page. Listening or not listening is not a function of what type of medicine you practice–there are jerks in all fields. very true, though I suspect good listeners may be born rather than trained. And yet, you suggest that ADHD is environmental, possibly not genetic.

I strongly suspect the number of cases diagnosed swamps the tiny number that might  be shown to be genetic . I suppose you could argue that the USA population has mutated, but it seems more reasonable  to me to assume commercial pressures rather than discovery of genetic mutation drive the spiraling numbers. Such arguments are unlikely ever to be resolved definitively, but to its convenient to write it off as genetic. because this means no allowances have to be made for the childrens needs. And far from costing money, people can make money out of it. just my 2c – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.mdpsych.org/SP97_gKlee.htm The cottage industry era of psychiatry is ending as profit driven corporations take over. Psychiatry is rapidly undergoing industrialization, while simultaneously being thrust into the information age. Office based, solo private practitioners are disappearing. Standardization and productivity are emphasized, as technology replaces art. The artisan is being replaced by the assembly line. There may soon be few traces left of the previous system. Before this era is entirely lost, let’s look back to a pivotal time in the history of Maryland psychiatry. In 1965, I conducted a survey of private psychiatric practice in Maryland with the assistance of Jean Warthen, PhD. An American Psychiatric News summary of the findings will be presented, but first I will provide a context. This was the time of "THE GREAT SOCIETY". America was attempting to forge a new world. The defense industry prospered, as we fought a war in Viet Nam. Social consciousness was rising at home. Medicare legislation was passed. Private health insurance had begun paying for a significant share of psychiatric treatment. The "War Against Mental Illness" had begun. In psychiatry, we were confident that we had the necessary weapons to win the war. The psychoanalytic movement was strong and many other forms of psychotherapy were developing. The psychopharmacology revolution had begun over a decade earlier and mental hospitals were being emptied of long term patients. Neuroscience was rapidly developing. With generous federal funding, the community mental health movement was taking shape. <clip In the 1960s, as the war against mental illness was launched, the future of psychiatry seemed bright. We have come a long way since then. Where are we now? Is the war being won? Many believe that it is being won by managed care, and lost by psychiatry and the mentally ill. Whatever flaws there may have been in the past, the high rate for psychotherapy in 1965 suggests that psychiatrists listened to patients. The listening was part of psychotherapy. There is less and less time for that now as psychotherapy gives way to brief, infrequent "med checks". This is a serious mistake, which may contribute to the rising numbers of malpractice suits. Drugs are not a substitute for listening. Even clinical psychopharmacology requires a thorough knowledge of the patient and an ongoing therapeutic relationship. If it’s just a matter of writing prescriptions, someone else can do it as well. "Parity for Mental Health" is of little value unless the psychiatrist is in charge of treatment and spends time with the patient. The psychiatrist who is no more than an assembly line worker is easily dispensable. We were told in medical school that the patient is our best teacher. Before reaching for the prescription pad, listen to the patient. Listen and learn.

Response:

I suppose you could argue that the USA population has mutated, but it seems more reasonable  to me to assume commercial pressures rather than discovery of genetic mutation drive the spiraling numbers.

Personally I like to think more ADHD types left the old world to colonise the new….a few of my uncles and my grandfather for starters. My father just made do with a short hop from the kingdom to the continent. Vashti

Response:

I was wondering if anyone has any experience with negative long term effects of Adderall? My friend seems to think he has developed a tic from 3 years of Adderall. I just started taking it a couple of weeks ago, and it seems to be helpful.

IIRC, the prescribing information for all the stimulants warn of the possibility of developing tics. The connection between tics and ADHD have been discussed many times in ASAD. Try doing a Goggle Group search for "tics" for ASAD. One of the more recent studies I’m aware of found a correlation between ADHD itself and tics. Individuals with ADHD were more likely than those w/o ADHD to develop tics, whether or not the ADHD individual used stimulants. I like how the medicine helps me, but if its going to permanently mess with my brain, I would rather just tell my doctor that I want to try non medication methods of beating ADD.

If you are worried about tics, some non-stimulant meds are also used to treat tics. (Of course, if that study I mentioned is right, an ADHDer using non-stimulant meds might also develop tics.) Ask your doctor about those. But, if you are concerned about side-effects, in general, well, all medications potentially may cause side-effects of one kind or another, some more serious than others. By "non-medication methods," are you talking about things like exercise, developing coping methods and organizational skills, etc? You should be doing those anyway. Medication is only part of the answer to dealing with the symptoms of ADHD. Sometimes (often?) the medications are necessary in order to allow you to use those other methods consistently or effectively. Or by "non-medication methods," are you talking about "natural" treatments for ADHD like herbs and nutritional supplements? If so, I hope you are aware that those are medications too, but are usually untested for efficacy or safety and also may cause side-effects. Can anybody point me to a site where there is information about long term changes in brain chemistry from Adderall, or anything about long term effects? I am looking for substantive information, for instance a study, or just a place where people talk about their experiences.

If you want studies, you should get familiar with MEDLINE/PubMed. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi Nancy Unique, like everyone else

Response:

I would rather just tell my doctor that I want to try non medication methods of beating ADD psychiatrists don’t do non-medication treatment anymore, at least the bulk share

yeah they don’t use leeches either – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and if you went to a psychologist for such treatment, most likely he would have reservations if you said you had ADD seek a referreal for treatment on www.mindfreedom.org www.cchr.org www.breggin.com BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Response:

are you trying to say the jerk level in the psych industry accords to guassian distribution? no. groups need not be normally distributed so as to fail to find significant differences.

yes they do need to be normally distributed or someone gets oppressed, how leisurely of you from your position of temporal advantage to ignore that the jerk level in the psych industry results in oppression, were I a sadist I would hope you encountered such, and believe me the hope runs through my mind — My solution to the world’s problems? www.mysolution.ws Average Joe – chat with me live on my site

Response:

are you trying to say the jerk level in the psych industry accords to guassian distribution? no. groups need not be normally distributed so as to fail to find significant differences. yes they do need to be normally distributed

There are many other distributions that allow for perfectly valid statistical tests. or someone gets oppressed, how leisurely of you from your position of temporal advantage to ignore that the jerk level in the psych industry results in oppression, were I a sadist

There was doubt? — It isn’t really important to decide when you are very young just exactly what you want to become when you grow up. It is much more important to decide on the way you want to live.                      Golda Meir (1898-1978)                       Israeli Prime Minister http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

Response:

Thank you VERY much for your timely and well-researched response.  I am 100% positive it will resonate for all informed and caring people!!  And your web sites will help immensely.! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would rather just tell my doctor that I want to try non medication methods of beating ADD psychiatrists don’t do non-medication treatment anymore, at least the bulk share and if you went to a psychologist for such treatment, most likely he would have reservations if you said you had ADD seek a referreal for treatment on www.mindfreedom.org www.cchr.org www.breggin.com — My solution to the world’s problems? www.mysolution.ws Average Joe – chat with me live on my site

Response:

there are jerks in all fields.

are you trying to say the jerk level in the psych industry accords to guassian distribution? try again, it is indeed skewed, skewed to a level that the morm is jerkhood and anyone questioning jerks is in denial of their need for treatment

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would rather just tell my doctor that I want to try non medication methods of beating ADD psychiatrists don’t do non-medication treatment anymore, at least the bulk share your point is? If you went to a surgeon and asked for a nonsurgical treatment of a disorder, would you have gone to the right place? Would that be the surgeons fault? This must be one of THE worst analogies you have produced If a psychiatrist has prostituted themself to the extent they ignore the range of treatments available, and has degenerated into a drug prescription machine, what would you blame?  ` Psychiatrists are MD’s. You blame them for acting as MD’s? on the contrary I blame some of them for NOT acting like MDs MDs do not neccessarily leap for the prescription pad and have been known to actually listen to some of their patients and take their wishes and situation into consideration. well, that’s been my experience of how psychiatrists work too so i guess we are on the same page. Listening or not listening is not a function of what type of medicine you practice–there are jerks in all fields. very true, though I suspect good listeners may be born rather than trained. http://www.mdpsych.org/SP97_gKlee.htm

you really don’t need to cut and paste–the url words. you will note that there are no outcome data provided. When current modes of treatment are compared to the wonders of yesteryear, one has to remember that that which now is being compared to is some variant of psychodynamic psychotherapy. An individual is seen 3-5 sessions a week, every week except for the month of august, and treatment averaged 10 years (OK, so I’m biased).  Psychiatrists were perceived as listeners.  But, and the important piece–people didn’t get better at a rate any better than base rate. — It isn’t really important to decide when you are very young just exactly what you want to become when you grow up. It is much more important to decide on the way you want to live.                      Golda Meir (1898-1978)                       Israeli Prime Minister http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

Response:

there are jerks in all fields. are you trying to say the jerk level in the psych industry accords to guassian distribution?

no. groups need not be normally distributed so as to fail to find significant differences. — It isn’t really important to decide when you are very young just exactly what you want to become when you grow up. It is much more important to decide on the way you want to live.                      Golda Meir (1898-1978)                       Israeli Prime Minister http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would rather just tell my doctor that I want to try non medication methods of beating ADD psychiatrists don’t do non-medication treatment anymore, at least the bulk share your point is? If you went to a surgeon and asked for a nonsurgical treatment of a disorder, would you have gone to the right place? Would that be the surgeons fault? This must be one of THE worst analogies you have produced If a psychiatrist has prostituted themself to the extent they ignore the range of treatments available, and has degenerated into a drug prescription machine, what would you blame?  ` Psychiatrists are MD’s. You blame them for acting as MD’s? on the contrary I blame some of them for NOT acting like MDs MDs do not neccessarily leap for the prescription pad and have been known to actually listen to some of their patients and take their wishes and situation into consideration. well, that’s been my experience of how psychiatrists work too so i guess we are on the same page. Listening or not listening is not a function of what type of medicine you practice–there are jerks in all fields. very true, though I suspect good listeners may be born rather than trained. http://www.mdpsych.org/SP97_gKlee.htm you really don’t need to cut and paste–the url words.

not everyone can always be bothered to click though you will note that there are no outcome data provided. When current modes of treatment are compared to the wonders of yesteryear, one has to remember that that which now is being compared to is some variant of psychodynamic psychotherapy.

of course  An individual is seen 3-5 sessions a week, every week except for the month of august, and treatment averaged 10 years (OK, so I’m biased).

and quite radical it seems. Brief Therapy can and does have dramatic results in some cases  Psychiatrists were perceived as listeners.  But, and the important piece–people didn’t get better at a rate any better than base rate.

True, but its not too much to ask surely for even jerks in the psych industry to have a rudimentary grasp of basic counselling at least. Their bread and butter is dealing with mentally distressed and often frightened  people after all.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would rather just tell my doctor that I want to try non medication methods of beating ADD psychiatrists don’t do non-medication treatment anymore, at least the bulk share your point is? If you went to a surgeon and asked for a nonsurgical treatment of a disorder, would you have gone to the right place? Would that be the surgeons fault? This must be one of THE worst analogies you have produced If a psychiatrist has prostituted themself to the extent they ignore the range of treatments available, and has degenerated into a drug prescription machine, what would you blame?  ` Psychiatrists are MD’s. You blame them for acting as MD’s? on the contrary I blame some of them for NOT acting like MDs MDs do not neccessarily leap for the prescription pad and have been known to actually listen to some of their patients and take their wishes and situation into consideration. well, that’s been my experience of how psychiatrists work too so i guess we are on the same page. Listening or not listening is not a function of what type of medicine you practice–there are jerks in all fields.

very true, though I suspect good listeners may be born rather than trained. http://www.mdpsych.org/SP97_gKlee.htm The cottage industry era of psychiatry is ending as profit driven corporations take over. Psychiatry is rapidly undergoing industrialization, while simultaneously being thrust into the information age. Office based, solo private practitioners are disappearing. Standardization and productivity are emphasized, as technology replaces art. The artisan is being replaced by the assembly line. There may soon be few traces left of the previous system. Before this era is entirely lost, let

Question:

I’ve just been diagnosed with Endometriosis after Laporoscopic surgery.  My husband and I have been trying to conceive for a little over a year and I was having bad pain.  The doctor removed my endometriosis (I had 4 on my uterus) and now she wants me to go on Lupron for six months before it comes back.  Then she says I can try to get pregnant.  I’ve heard a lot of bad flack about Luprong and would like to try to get pregnant now that I’ve gotten it removed before it comes back.  Has anyone had any success with this?

Response:

Hi, I know a woman who had surgery for endo followed by lupron who then went on to get pregnant.  However, I’m not clear on whether they got all her endo or not. If they got it all, the lupron is not going to change anything.  If I remember my facts correctly, lupron really isn’t intended to improve fertility when endo is present.  It can relieve symptoms for a time but that’s about all. If you feel the time is right in your life to try to get pregnant now, I would ask the doctor if there’s any reason not to try now.  You would, of course, want to wait until you get the all-clear from your doctor to have intercourse so you can be sure you’re fully healed from the surgery.  Hope that helps!   Susan

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Kristin:   I am undergoing a lap. next week for suspected endometriosis.  My husband and I are also trying to conceive.  My doctor has also suggested Lupron for six months after the lap. is done.  From what I’ve read about Lupron, I am going to opt not to take it.  All the studies I’ve read say that Lupron has no impact on fertility rates, and that the only thing that increases fertility is the removal of the endometriosis during surgery.  I am interested to know what you have decided and what the outcome will be.  Good luck with the trying to conceive. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve just been diagnosed with Endometriosis after Laporoscopic surgery.  My husband and I have been trying to conceive for a little over a year and I was having bad pain.  The doctor removed my endometriosis (I had 4 on my uterus) and now she wants me to go on Lupron for six months before it comes back.  Then she says I can try to get pregnant.  I’ve heard a lot of bad flack about Luprong and would like to try to get pregnant now that I’ve gotten it removed before it comes back.  Has anyone had any success with this?

Response:

Boo, Absolutely bring my note (and any and all other negative info) to your doctor. And I’ve no problem with your leaving my name on my note (I’m in the book, in Boston, if s/he has questions or comments – *I* certainly have questions and comments for any physician prescribing this drug, so would welcome ‘dialogue’). Let me know how you make out – I’ve written in the past that women are being coerced, threatened, badgered, manipulated, and frightened into taking lupron, and many report "having lupron shoved down [their] throat".  And there’s something terribly wrong with that picture. Let me know how you make out. Best wishes, Lynne

Response:

| Kristin, | | Lupron is a pregnancy Category X drug – according to the FDA, pregnancy | Category X drugs are drugs which any woman who is OR WHO MAY BECOME PREGNANT | should avoid using.  Lupron is known as a reproductive and developmental | teratogen. | | Lupron is a hazardous drug according to the NIH and OSHA. Ask your doctor if | they’ll be injecting lupron into you while they are double gloved and gowned, | as advised by NIH. | | Lupron has spawned lupron victims groups and many many sick women, myself | included.  (I was prescribed lupron pre & post endo surgery and during IVF – I | didn’t become pregnant, but have developed cysts, tumor, severe osteoporosis, | cardiac arrythmias, arthritis, bad gastic problems, am being worked up for | adrenal insufficiency, and these are only just a few of my medical highlights | that I could list, and just got out of the hospital for the second time in one | month.  Prior to lupron, I only had one doc (gyn), and no health problems | except endo, infertility, and a prior knee injury.  My story is just one of | THOUSANDS.  Do you wish to join our ranks?  Check out www.lupronvictims.com for | starters) | | Q.  Why is your or any other doctor prescribing this toxicant (lupron)? | | A.  Check out an article today in the Boston Globe: | http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/09/business/09TAX.html?ex=1037422800&e… | 7e7c51737a1b1&ei=5006&partner=ALTAVISTA1 | | While the above article pertains to prostate cancer use of lupron, a search of | other published articles will reveal that TAP has made similar lucrative deals | involving gyn use of lupron as well. You might ask your doctor/clinic/hospital | to disclose the money deals s/he/they have with TAP.  You probably won’t get a | correct answer, however.  Just like you won’t get informed consent of the risks | of lupron. | | Russian Roullette is a much safer game to engage in, in my opinion. | | Best wishes, | Lynne Millican, R.N. Hi Lynne. Thank you for posting this. Would you mind if I printed this and brought it with me incase my doctor won’t stop pushing Lupron? I will remove your name from the posting. I am so scared to even go near this drug. Boo

Response:

Oops – I’ve no idea how that NY Times link got in there!  The correct link to the Boston Globe article is: http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/313/metro/Drug_sale_said_tied_to_fa… at_Lahey+.shtml

Response:

Kristin, Lupron is a pregnancy Category X drug – according to the FDA, pregnancy Category X drugs are drugs which any woman who is OR WHO MAY BECOME PREGNANT should avoid using.  Lupron is known as a reproductive and developmental teratogen. Lupron is a hazardous drug according to the NIH and OSHA. Ask your doctor if they’ll be injecting lupron into you while they are double gloved and gowned, as advised by NIH. Lupron has spawned lupron victims groups and many many sick women, myself included.  (I was prescribed lupron pre & post endo surgery and during IVF – I didn’t become pregnant, but have developed cysts, tumor, severe osteoporosis, cardiac arrythmias, arthritis, bad gastic problems, am being worked up for adrenal insufficiency, and these are only just a few of my medical highlights that I could list, and just got out of the hospital for the second time in one month.  Prior to lupron, I only had one doc (gyn), and no health problems except endo, infertility, and a prior knee injury.  My story is just one of THOUSANDS.  Do you wish to join our ranks?  Check out www.lupronvictims.com for starters) Q.  Why is your or any other doctor prescribing this toxicant (lupron)? A.  Check out an article today in the Boston Globe: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/09/business/09TAX.html?ex=1037422800&e… 7e7c51737a1b1&ei=5006&partner=ALTAVISTA1 While the above article pertains to prostate cancer use of lupron, a search of other published articles will reveal that TAP has made similar lucrative deals involving gyn use of lupron as well. You might ask your doctor/clinic/hospital to disclose the money deals s/he/they have with TAP.  You probably won’t get a correct answer, however.  Just like you won’t get informed consent of the risks of lupron. Russian Roullette is a much safer game to engage in, in my opinion. Best wishes, Lynne Millican, R.N.

Response:

Hi Kristin, If your doc is confident that she removed all the endo there is no reason to take Lupron. It can’t improve fertility at all, all it does is shrink lesions – which hopefully aren’t there anyway! Lupron is a class A drug and can’t be used for more than six months in any *lifetime*, so you may prefer to hold on if you can and have the choice to take it later. For some reason, as well, the first 6 to 12 months after surgery seem to be the best time to ttc, maybe the "clear-out" makes it easier, I don’t know. Ask your gyn why she would prefer you to have Lupron now, if she doesn’t think that ttc now might not be best? Wait at least one cycle though, and be careful – the first period after a lap can be a doozy! Donna — http://n.e.endo.tripod.com/ http://a.s.e.faqs.tripod.com/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve just been diagnosed with Endometriosis after Laporoscopic surgery.  My husband and I have been trying to conceive for a little over a year and I was having bad pain.  The doctor removed my endometriosis (I had 4 on my uterus) and now she wants me to go on Lupron for six months before it comes back.  Then she says I can try to get pregnant.  I’ve heard a lot of bad flack about Luprong and would like to try to get pregnant now that I’ve gotten it removed before it comes back.  Has anyone had any success with this?

Response:

Question:

I’ve scoured newsgroup postings and the web, and have found little info on Remicade and its effects of male fertility and pregnancy risks.  Does anyone have any current information?  For example, are there any reports on it having mutagenic effects on sperm (note, I’m talking about Remicade directly and not methotrexate taken concurrently, which of course DOES have mutagenic effects). I guess the big question is how long should we wait after the last infusion before trying to get pregnant.  The pain is quite unbearable as I approach the end of the third month sans Remicade, so I’m hoping for a short-duration answer!! Thanks in advance, Keith N.

Response:

I’ve scoured newsgroup postings and the web, and have found little info on Remicade and its effects of male fertility and pregnancy risks.  Does anyone have any current information?  For example, are there any reports on it having mutagenic effects on sperm (note, I’m talking about Remicade directly and not methotrexate taken concurrently, which of course DOES have mutagenic effects).

I could only find one reference, and I could find nothing in the new ACR abstracts.  From medline. Inflammatory Bowel Disease During Pregnancy. Rajapakse R, Korelitz BI. Division of Gastroenterology, Department of Medicine, Lenox Hill Hospital, East 77th Street, New York, NY 10021, USA. The management of both male and female patients with inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) who wish to have a baby is challenging. For women, the most important factor to bear in mind is that the outcome of pregnancy is largely influenced by disease activity at the time of conception. Women with quiescent disease are likely to have an uncomplicated pregnancy with the delivery of a healthy baby, whereas women with active disease are more likely to have complications such as spontaneous abortions, miscarriages, stillbirths, and exacerbation of the disease. This is more true of patients with Crohn’s disease than of patients with ulcerative colitis. Although the safety of medications used during pregnancy is an important issue, the impact of the medications used to treat IBD is less important in comparison to disease activity itself. 5-Aminosalicylic acid (5-ASA) products appear to be safe during pregnancy; corticosteroids are probably safe; 6- mercaptopurine and azathioprine should be used with caution; and methotrexate is contraindicated. There are inadequate data on the use of infliximab during pregnancy. In regard to men with IBD, the disease itself does not seem to have any negative impact on fertility. However, there is controversy about the effects of using 6-mercaptopurine and azathioprine prior to and during fertilization. In view of possible adverse pregnancy outcomes, it would be prudent to withhold 6-mercaptopurine and azathioprine therapy in men with IBD for 3 months prior to conception, when feasible. Most IBD medications should be continued before, during, and after pregnancy, with careful attention to the known cautions and exceptions. If IBD in a pregnant patient is in remission, the prognosis for pregnancy is the same as if she did not have IBD. Active disease should therefore be treated aggressively and remission accomplished before pregnancy is attempted. Similarly, a woman who unexpectedly becomes pregnant while her IBD is active should be treated aggressively, as remission remains the greatest investment for a favorable pregnancy outcome. PMID: 11469981 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher] Not much help!   — Visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com

Response:

Here is one more from the ACR conference in 2001. Infliximab (Remicade) Abstracts 600 Outcome of Pregnancy in Women Receiving Remicade (Infliximab) for the Treatment of Crohn

Question:

There’s also the butalbital in Fioricet. Butalbital is a barbiturate.<

From what I know, and what my doctor knows it’s safe for a pregnant woman to take. At least as safe as a prescription medicine is. The only reason Fiorcet is a catagory C is because of the butalbital. Most Fioricet tabs contain 325-500mg of acetaminophen and only 50 mg. of butalbital. As you probably know acetaminophen is perfectly safe to take on it’s own. That’s what I meant as the "point" in my post when I said acetaminophen pain relievers were typically okayed in pregnancy. Typically OB’s only prescribe acetaminophen based pain relievers, i.e., Tylenol 3, Fioricet…etc. Even though asprin is supposedly alright in certain weeks they still won’t give me any type of asprin derivative for regular pain relief. LoL Now this post was a long ramble. It’s been raining here ALL day and I have cabin fever. I actually began to type "rain reliever" instead of pain….=o) Ha, wishful thinking for my head. Ashli

Response:

And, Fiorocet is the  Tylenol formula and Fironal (sp) is the aspirin formula. Di

Response:

There’s also the butalbital in Fioricet. Butalbital is a barbiturate. Teri

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – asprin/tylenol group of medications < Asprin and Tylenol are in two different catagories. Tylenol or acetaminophen derived pain relievers are perfectly fine throughout pregnancy. Asprin derivatives are typically okayed from the 16 week up until the 28th to 30th week. Just throwing that in there. =o) Ashli

Response:

asprin/tylenol group of medications <

Asprin and Tylenol are in two different catagories. Tylenol or acetaminophen derived pain relievers are perfectly fine throughout pregnancy. Asprin derivatives are typically okayed from the 16 week up until the 28th to 30th week. Just throwing that in there. =o) Ashli

Response:

I’ve never taken this drug personally, but I’ve done research on it and the research states that it is related to the asprin/tylenol group of medications and I’ve been told that pregnant women don’t need to take these types of medications.  Hope this helps! http://health.yahoo.com/health/drugs.html

Response:

Hey there, Ashli. I knew what you meant.  Just added the point about the butalbital for anyone who might have come in at that middle point of the thread. Teri

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There’s also the butalbital in Fioricet. Butalbital is a barbiturate.< From what I know, and what my doctor knows it’s safe for a pregnant woman to take. At least as safe as a prescription medicine is. The only reason Fiorcet is a catagory C is because of the butalbital. Most Fioricet tabs contain 325-500mg of acetaminophen and only 50 mg. of butalbital. As you probably know acetaminophen is perfectly safe to take on it’s own. That’s what I meant as the "point" in my post when I said acetaminophen pain relievers were typically okayed in pregnancy. Typically OB’s only prescribe acetaminophen based pain relievers, i.e., Tylenol 3, Fioricet…etc. Even though asprin is supposedly alright in certain weeks they still won’t give me any type of asprin derivative for regular pain relief. LoL Now this post was a long ramble. It’s been raining here ALL day and I have cabin fever. I actually began to type "rain reliever" instead of pain….=o) Ha, wishful thinking for my head. Ashli

Response:

Hey Ashli… You sending the rain to the Northeast???  I can feel a rainy day coming already….  Well, at least we can commiserate!!! Liz

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There’s also the butalbital in Fioricet. Butalbital is a barbiturate.< From what I know, and what my doctor knows it’s safe for a pregnant woman to take. At least as safe as a prescription medicine is. The only reason Fiorcet is a catagory C is because of the butalbital. Most Fioricet tabs contain 325-500mg of acetaminophen and only 50 mg. of butalbital. As you probably know acetaminophen is perfectly safe to take on it’s own. That’s what I meant as the "point" in my post when I said acetaminophen pain relievers were typically okayed in pregnancy. Typically OB’s only prescribe acetaminophen based pain relievers, i.e., Tylenol 3, Fioricet…etc. Even though asprin is supposedly alright in certain weeks they still won’t give me any type of asprin derivative for regular pain relief. LoL Now this post was a long ramble. It’s been raining here ALL day and I have cabin fever. I actually began to type "rain reliever" instead of pain….=o) Ha, wishful thinking for my head. Ashli

Response:

Yeah, I guess.  Send it along….We need it desperately too, but it sure does a number on my head.  It hasn’t started yet, but it’s threatening… the rain AND my head. Liz

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You sending the rain to the Northeast???< Do you want it? I would really like to send it somewhere. We really need the rain down here but geeeez, we’re about flooded. Sometimes I wish I could cure the drought with no rain. My head sure would appreciate that. Ashli

Response:

You sending the rain to the Northeast???<

Do you want it? I would really like to send it somewhere. We really need the rain down here but geeeez, we’re about flooded. Sometimes I wish I could cure the drought with no rain. My head sure would appreciate that. Ashli

Response:

Just added the point about the butalbital for anyone who might have come in at that middle point of the thread.<

I figured as much. Guess I just felt like babbling. =oD Ashli

Response:

"Don’t need" sounds like it’s some frivolous, optional or ineffective nostrum she’s chosen on her own from the drugstore shelves.<

Thank you! It irritates me people say things that could in fact make a pregnant woman feel worse about treating her pain. I don’t mean to pull the "you’ve not been pregnant" card but if you HAVEN’T and dealt with the overwhelming changes your body goes through with pregnancy alone you cannot truthfully say what is and what is not okay to take/do when you add migraine to the mix. I highly, HIGHLY doubt an OB/GYN would prescribe something to hurt one of their patients. I think if you even have that feeling you need to find a doctor you trust. Fioricet and other narcotics are not just given for women with migraine in pregnancy. Other severe pain in pregnancy is also treated with it. So yeah. stepping down off hormonal soapbox<

Ashli

Response:

I agree! Di

Response:

LOL! You can babble to me any time you want, Ashli. Teri

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just added the point about the butalbital for anyone who might have come in at that middle point of the thread.< I figured as much. Guess I just felt like babbling. =oD Ashli

Response:

Maybe you mean well, but if you’re not familiar with or haven’t taken Fioricet, it’s really not wise to give advice about it: "it is related to the asprin/tylenol group of medications"       You can’t generalize like that when you discuss the specific benefits or drawbacks of a drug for a specific individual. The actual component – tylenol OR aspirin – is very important, and needs to be more specifically distinguished when discussing this drug’s use by *this* pregnant woman; as does the caffeine. And you missed the biggest point:   the butalbital component – it has specific import for its own actions/merits/drawbacks. "I’ve been told that pregnant women don’t need to take these types of medications."      Told by who? And "don’t need" is a funny choice of words. This drug was prescribed by her own doctor because she’s suffering severe pain. "Don’t need" sounds like it’s some frivolous, optional or ineffective nostrum she’s chosen on her own from the drugstore shelves. Sheesh! …Sorry, don”t mean to be crabby; it’s that kind of night. Ginnie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve never taken this drug personally, but I’ve done research on it and the research states that it is related to the asprin/tylenol group of medications and I’ve been told that pregnant women don’t need to take these types of medications.  Hope this helps! http://health.yahoo.com/health/drugs.html

Response:

Hi Elise.. I use it, it works… but there are drawbacks.  First, I started using 1/2 a tablet and got good results.  BUT in the years since, I’ve found that I needed more are more of it to get that desired result (I’m now up to 2 at onset of migraine). You’re going to hear pros and cons of "rebound" with Fiorocet here – the drug working for the migraine, but setting up rebound headaches afterwards. I don’t subscribe to either thought… I just know that when I take it, I’m very careful. Look it up on www.rxlist.com and you’ll get all the info you’ll ever need!!! Good luck, Liz

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone used this drug?  I have been perscribed it and I am wondering how it effects you.  I am Pregnant and I have not decided if the risks outweigh the benifits yet… Thanks. Elise Married to Paul 7-7-01 Cat- Tony M/C 1/02 Pregnant again!  EDD 2-18-03

Response:

Amen!  I seem to feel that way too.  When it comes to my quality of life, I find my habitual use of my triptans far outweighs the disgusting side effects of the stupid preventives they shove down my throat. Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If it gets rid of your headache, why should anybody care how much it takes.  I have suffered so many years not having access to any drugs.  If it improves your quality of life, who cares. Di

Response:

If it gets rid of your headache, why should anybody care how much it takes.  I have suffered so many years not having access to any drugs.  If it improves your quality of life, who cares. Di

I believe people care for one or both (or more) reasons… 1) the cost – When I got a prescription for Frova I was charged $25 for six tablets.  For someone who suffers from chronic migraines, this could sure add up. 2) liver damage – I would love for something to work at 4mg as opposed to 25mg because it would hopefully mean less damage to my liver. But I see your point as well.  If you don’t have access and you’re listening to others complain about having to take two pills instead of one, that could very well be frustrating.  For those who can afford to find relief…count your blessings Jasmine

Response:

Has anyone used this drug?  I have been perscribed it and I am wondering how it effects you.  I am Pregnant and I have not decided if the risks outweigh the benifits yet… Thanks. Elise Married to Paul 7-7-01 Cat- Tony M/C 1/02 Pregnant again!  EDD 2-18-03

Response:

Has anyone used this drug?  <

Currently, I bounce back and forth from this or a version of it (Axocet) and Lortab. Only drawback *I* found is the half-life of Axocet is 36 hours. To me that’s a GREAT half-life from a pain stand point but as a pregnant person it’s not very refreshing. It helps me. It has not seemed to affect my daughter either. She never gets "groggy" and always is moving about even after I take it. As far as everything she looks wonderful on u/s. I try to be optmistic. No side effects for me whatsoever, either. My doctor has okayed this for me throughout the rest of this pregnancy. I hope you find that it helps.                          Ashli         Resident Oven to a Baby Moose                            a.k.a. Gracie         Due to arrive January 1st or before

Response:

I use Fioricet with Codeine if three Aleve tablets don’t work.  It is amazing how well Fioricet gets rid of the severe pain.  I don’t recommend operating a motor vehicle while taking it.  I wish they produced a version without caffeine, for those times when I need to use one in the middle of the night. A prescription for 30 capsules lasts me more than a year.  An individual migraine episode has never required more than two capsules. T

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone used this drug?  I have been perscribed it and I am wondering how it effects you.  I am Pregnant and I have not decided if the risks outweigh the benifits yet… Thanks. Elise Married to Paul 7-7-01 Cat- Tony M/C 1/02 Pregnant again!  EDD 2-18-03

Response:

If it gets rid of your headache, why should anybody care how much it takes.  I have suffered so many years not having access to any drugs.  If it improves your quality of life, who cares. Di

Response:

Elise, Did your doctor talk to you about the use of Fioricet during pregnancy? Some info for you to have in making your decision: Pregnancy:   Teratogenic Effects:    Pregnancy Category C: Animal reproduction studies have not been conducted with this combination product. It is also not known whether butalbital and acetaminophen can cause fetal harm when administered to a pregnant woman or can affect reproduction capacity. These products should be given to a pregnant woman only when clearly needed. Nonteratogenic Effects:   Withdrawal seizures were reported in a two-day-old male infant whose mother had taken a butalbital-containing drug during the last two months of pregnancy. Butalbital was found in the infant’ serum. The infant was given phenobarbital 5 mg/kg, which was tapered without further seizure or other withdrawal symptoms. Nursing Mothers:   Barbiturates and acetaminophen are excreted in breast milk in small amounts, but the significance of their effects on nursing infants is not known. Because of potential for serious adverse reactions in nursing infants from butalbital and acetaminophen, a decision should be made whether to discontinue nursing or to discontinue the drug, taking into account the importance of the drug to the mother. Be well, Teri

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone used this drug?  I have been perscribed it and I am wondering how it effects you.  I am Pregnant and I have not decided if the risks outweigh the benifits yet… Thanks. Elise Married to Paul 7-7-01 Cat- Tony M/C 1/02 Pregnant again!  EDD 2-18-03

Response:

They do!!!!  My pharmasist had to compound it,  after I told my doctor i didnt want the caffine.  It was a rather large capsule.  But they do make it.  And it still only cost me a 5 dollar co-pay/ Chris….filled at a Kmart in KY

Response:

Actually there is a commercially made product…called Phrenilyn by CArnicke…that is "Fioricet without the caffeine"…large purple pill or capsule.. Shouldn’t need to be compounded,,but all pharmacies may not carry it,,they can order it for you.. good luck.. rb Hawki…..the nurse practitioner

Response:

I did take this while i was pregnant with my son.  I also took a lot of phenegren.  My son was 5 weeks early but that was due to the complications of pneumonia that I had. Chris

Response:

If the Fiorocet has codeine, you should NOT take it while you are pregnant!<

It’s a Catagory C. So it’s as safe as any narcotic gets during pregnancy. And FYI Tylenol with Codeine is prescribed often for pregnant ladies. Ashli

Response:

Elise: If the Fiorocet has codeine, you should NOT take it while you are pregnant! Ask your OB/GYN if it is safe.  It don’t think it is for pregnant women.  Be careful! Peace & Love, Lynne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone used this drug?  I have been perscribed it and I am wondering how it effects you.  I am Pregnant and I have not decided if the risks outweigh the benifits yet… Thanks. Elise Married to Paul 7-7-01 Cat- Tony M/C 1/02 Pregnant again!  EDD 2-18-03

Response:

Thank you so much for all of the thoughtful responses. I will pick up my Rx this weekend, and if I need it for the pain and I may try it. Thanks again, this was VERY helpful. Elise Married to Paul 7-7-01 Cat- Tony M/C 1/02 Pregnant again!  EDD 2-18-03

Response:

I certainly understand this point of view, although the prevailing medical wisdom suggests you might be making your migraines considerably worse by taking an abortive more than twice a week. But if you were to meet a good preventive – one that reduces the number and or severity of your migraines by at least half, and does not present you with troublesome side effects, you might change your mind. I had horrendous side effects with almost everything I tried, and nothing met the test of 50% improvement until I tried 5-HTP. I am NOT suggesting that 5-HTP will work for you; like most preventives, it doesn’t work for most people. I’m just glad I persisted. My life’s a lot better now, even though I still average about one headache a week. Good luck –Julianne

Response:

I agree.  I find myself taking triptans at least every other day, sometimes every day; running out, but at least I don’t suffer with the migraines.  Taking daily Topamax or other preventatives are worse in my mind. any thoughts out there? Joy

Response:

I don’t know where you are getting your information from but having a medical background, I understand that there is no such thing as a "safe" narcotic during pregnancy.  Check your PDR. If the Fiorocet has codeine, you should NOT take it while you are pregnant!< It’s a Catagory C. So it’s as safe as any narcotic gets during pregnancy. And FYI Tylenol with Codeine is prescribed often for pregnant ladies.

Somehow I’d thought that narcotics are the safest things (within certain limits) to take for a migraine during pregnancy.  Triptans are ruled right out. Priscilla — "As you get older, physical deterioration is offset by a larger world view and a deeper sense of gratitude."  Diane Keaton

Response:

I don’t know where you are getting your information from but having a medical background, I understand that there is no such thing as a "safe" narcotic during pregnancy.  Check your PDR.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the Fiorocet has codeine, you should NOT take it while you are pregnant!< It’s a Catagory C. So it’s as safe as any narcotic gets during pregnancy. And FYI Tylenol with Codeine is prescribed often for pregnant ladies. Ashli

Response:

Very good research Teri…you just might be saving the future health of an unborn child.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For some reason, Fioricet with Codeine isn’t in the CD version of the PDR. So, for informational purposes of this thread, from the National Library of Medicine’s Medline Plus: "Pregnancy-   a.. For butalbital: Barbiturates such as butalbital have been shown to increase the chance of birth defects in humans. Also, one study in humans has suggested that barbiturates taken during pregnancy may increase the chance of brain tumors in the baby.Butalbital may cause breathing problems in the newborn baby if taken just before or during delivery.   b.. For acetaminophen: Although studies on birth defects with acetaminophen have not been done in pregnant women, it has not been reported to cause birth defects or other problems.   c.. For caffeine: Studies in humans have not shown that caffeine causes birth defects. However, use of large amounts of caffeine during pregnancy may cause problems with the heart rhythm and the growth of the fetus. Also, studies in animals have shown that caffeine causes birth defects when given in very large doses (amounts equal to those present in 12 to 24 cups of coffee a day).   d.. For codeine: Although studies on birth defects with codeine have not been done in pregnant women, it has not been reported to cause birth defects. However, it may cause breathing problems in the newborn baby if taken just before or during delivery. Codeine did not cause birth defects in animal studies, but it caused slower development of bones and other harmful effects in the fetus." Teri I don’t know where you are getting your information from but having a medical background, I understand that there is no such thing as a "safe" narcotic during pregnancy.  Check your PDR. If the Fiorocet has codeine, you should NOT take it while you are pregnant!< It’s a Catagory C. So it’s as safe as any narcotic gets during pregnancy. And FYI Tylenol with Codeine is prescribed often for pregnant ladies. Ashli

Response:

For some reason, Fioricet with Codeine isn’t in the CD version of the PDR. So, for informational purposes of this thread, from the National Library of Medicine’s Medline Plus: "Pregnancy

Question:

I have 4 children, 3 pregnancies.  With each pregnancy I had seizures.  With my twins I had bunches of seizures.  Sometimes 2 grand mals in a hour (it seemed as I would just be coming ‘back’ when another would hit).  My twins are wonderful, top notch students, they both received scholarships to college, yada, yada, yada. No, your mother having seizures while pregnant did not cause you any harm. You’ve had a IQ test, if you get another one from a different person it will be different.  There are different ones.  An IQ test doesn’t mean a thing! What does matter is what’s inside you & you are the only person that knows that.  You know it now go out & show it. — Lisa Dapper Butts http://www.geocities.com/lisa_gail AOL – LizzieAnon yahoo – lisa_gail or hammerdulcimer or lizzie_anon I suffer from C.R.S…..can’t remember shit! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"

Vicky wrote:    Hi All,    Sorry for the possibly offensive implications of the subject title.  I am new here.     My Mother when she was pregnant with me started having seizures for the first time that she knows of.      I have been dxed with learning disabilities and when I had a IQ test done by a psychologist the psychologist said with the profile on the IQ test it seemed like brain damage.  I have also had auras in the past but never have experienced a full blown seizure, that I am aware of.     I was wondering if anyone know if seizures can affect a unborn child and if this could have been a cause to my problems.  My mother had temporal lobe seizures I think, when I was little she took Phenobarbital and dilantin for seizures but I don’t think she took meds when she was pregnant with me.      I started to discuss something’s with my Mom like the problems I have and it is very difficult as she started to go in the direction that it is all her fault.     My Mother also had a brother with Myotonic dystrophy but since he is her half brother we don’t know which parent was the carrier of this genetic disorder, no one else in the family seems to be affected with Myotonic dystrophy except him.     I am just trying to sort things out for myself, I don’t think there is any hope for me getting better as whatever I have seems to be progressing.  All I know is that I have been searching for answers and coming up with not much.     Vicky

Response:

"Lisa Dapper Butts" <l…@Menageriemusic.com

wrote in message <news:u79qvq2lo8ltc9@corp.supernews.com…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I have 4 children, 3 pregnancies.  With each pregnancy I had seizures.  With my twins I had bunches of seizures.  Sometimes 2 grand mals in a hour (it seemed as I would just be coming ‘back’ when another would hit).  My twins are wonderful, top notch students, they both received scholarships to college, yada, yada, yada. No, your mother having seizures while pregnant did not cause you any harm. You’ve had a IQ test, if you get another one from a different person it will be different.  There are different ones.  An IQ test doesn’t mean a thing! What does matter is what’s inside you & you are the only person that knows that.  You know it now go out & show it. — Lisa Dapper Butts http://www.geocities.com/lisa_gail AOL – LizzieAnon yahoo – lisa_gail or hammerdulcimer or lizzie_anon I suffer from C.R.S…..can’t remember shit! " Vicky wrote:    Hi All,    Sorry for the possibly offensive implications of the subject title.  I am new here.     My Mother when she was pregnant with me started having seizures for the first time that she knows of.      I have been dxed with learning disabilities and when I had a IQ test done by a psychologist the psychologist said with the profile on the IQ test it seemed like brain damage.  I have also had auras in the past but never have experienced a full blown seizure, that I am aware of.     I was wondering if anyone know if seizures can affect a unborn child and if this could have been a cause to my problems.  My mother had temporal lobe seizures I think, when I was little she took Phenobarbital and dilantin for seizures but I don’t think she took meds when she was pregnant with me.      I started to discuss something’s with my Mom like the problems I have and it is very difficult as she started to go in the direction that it is all her fault.     My Mother also had a brother with Myotonic dystrophy but since he is her half brother we don’t know which parent was the carrier of this genetic disorder, no one else in the family seems to be affected with Myotonic dystrophy except him.     I am just trying to sort things out for myself, I don’t think there is any hope for me getting better as whatever I have seems to be progressing.  All I know is that I have been searching for answers and coming up with not much.     Vicky

It is not a problem with the seizures that causes the problem with the fetus it is a problem with the medication that they prescribe to you while you are pregnant that causes the problems while you are pregnant both my children have problems due to a syndrome known as fetal anti convulsion syndrome and it was nothing to do with any seizures. carol

Response:

Vicky, it’s unlikely that the seizure per se would cause a birth defect, or even a deficiency. If your mother had a grand mal, or generalized tonic/clonic seizure during pregnancy and became hypoxic, or oxygen deprived for a significant time that could pass on to the fetus. This would be most significant in the first trimester of pregnancy. There is also a risk that whatever medicine she was on could contribute to a problem you have; however, that is uncommon. KH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Vicky wrote:

   Hi All,    Sorry for the possibly offensive implications of the subject title.  I am new here.     My Mother when she was pregnant with me started having seizures for the first time that she knows of.      I have been dxed with learning disabilities and when I had a IQ test done by a psychologist the psychologist said with the profile on the IQ test it seemed like brain damage.  I have also had auras in the past but never have experienced a full blown seizure, that I am aware of.     I was wondering if anyone know if seizures can affect a unborn child and if this could have been a cause to my problems.  My mother had temporal lobe seizures I think, when I was little she took Phenobarbital and dilantin for seizures but I don’t think she took meds when she was pregnant with me.      I started to discuss something’s with my Mom like the problems I have and it is very difficult as she started to go in the direction that it is all her fault.     My Mother also had a brother with Myotonic dystrophy but since he is her half brother we don’t know which parent was the carrier of this genetic disorder, no one else in the family seems to be affected with Myotonic dystrophy except him.     I am just trying to sort things out for myself, I don’t think there is any hope for me getting better as whatever I have seems to be progressing.  All I know is that I have been searching for answers and coming up with not much.     Vicky

Response:

Carol<ca…@carol4.fsnet.co.uk

wrotein message <news:3C634122.57BE2961@attbi.com…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

unfortnately both seizures and medication during pregnancy can cause problems in pregnancy I know I have two children both I was taking the prescribed     medication for epeplisy and both my children have got a new syndrome known as anti convulsion syndrome this is when the fetus is affect and problems such as learning difficulties speech,sight problems and muscle problems  and many more I have been told that it was caused due to the drugs I was taking which was eplim I did have a seizure with my first child and this actual damaged the neural tube when you are told you have to weigh up the odds between taking   fits during pregnancy or taking the risks of the tablets after the problems my children have I think i would have took the risk of no tablets carol

KH <kh6…@attbi.com

wrote in message <news:3C634122.57BE2961@attbi.com… Vicky, it’s unlikely that the seizure per se would cause a birth defect, or even a deficiency. If your mother had a grand mal, or generalized tonic/clonic seizure during pregnancy and became hypoxic, or oxygen deprived for a significant time that could pass on to the fetus. This would be most significant in the first trimester of pregnancy. There is also a risk that whatever medicine she was on could contribute to a problem you have; however, that is uncommon. KH Vicky wrote:    Hi All,    Sorry for the possibly offensive implications of the subject title.  I am new here.     My Mother when she was pregnant with me started having seizures for the first time that she knows of.      I have been dxed with learning disabilities and when I had a IQ test done by a psychologist the psychologist said with the profile on the IQ test it seemed like brain damage.  I have also had auras in the past but never have experienced a full blown seizure, that I am aware of.     I was wondering if anyone know if seizures can affect a unborn child and if this could have been a cause to my problems.  My mother had temporal lobe seizures I think, when I was little she took Phenobarbital and dilantin for seizures but I don’t think she took meds when she was pregnant with me.      I started to discuss something’s with my Mom like the problems I have and it is very difficult as she started to go in the direction that it is all her fault.     My Mother also had a brother with Myotonic dystrophy but since he is her half brother we don’t know which parent was the carrier of this genetic disorder, no one else in the family seems to be affected with Myotonic dystrophy except him.     I am just trying to sort things out for myself, I don’t think there is any hope for me getting better as whatever I have seems to be progressing.  All I know is that I have been searching for answers and coming up with not much.     Vicky

Response:

  Thanks for the links they were interesting.  I appreciate the time taken to reply    Vicky – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cheryl DeVoll wrote:

http://www.emedicine.com/NEURO/topic141.htm At the above site I found this quote under Medications: "Anticonvulsants indicated for use in partial seizures are the medical treatment of choice. Patients will generally require many years of treatment, so consideration of side effects is important. While most of the anticonvulsants are in pregnancy category C or D, the risk of medication to the fetus must be weighed against the risk of maternal seizures to the fetus." This quote answers your question partially, "the risk of medication to the fetus must be weighed against the risk of maternal seizures to the fetus." This quote tells you the rest of what you might need to know : http://www.cis.rit.edu/people/faculty/pelz/eagr/a/faqs.htm "Any injury to the developing brain before, during, or after birth can cause epilepsy. This could include maternal infections, oxygen deprivation, and difficult deliveries; also infections, severe jaundice, low blood sugar or calcium levels in early infancy, especially in preemies. Also included could be head injuries at any time, meningitis, encephalitis, brain abscesses, lead or mercury poisoning, and brain tumor, strokes, or other circulatory problems. " So , if your mom experienced oxygen lack or an autonomic seizure affecting the circulation, or her seizures caused you some kind of other continued fetal distress concerning the brain then yes.—Cheryl "Vicky" <eye-expr…@attbi.com wrote in message news:3C5FE5CD.317109D5@attbi.com…    Hi All,    Sorry for the possibly offensive implications of the subject title.  I am new here.     My Mother when she was pregnant with me started having seizures for the first time that she knows of.      I have been dxed with learning disabilities and when I had a IQ test done by a psychologist the psychologist said with the profile on the IQ test it seemed like brain damage.  I have also had auras in the past but never have experienced a full blown seizure, that I am aware of.     I was wondering if anyone know if seizures can affect a unborn child and if this could have been a cause to my problems.  My mother had temporal lobe seizures I think, when I was little she took Phenobarbital and dilantin for seizures but I don’t think she took meds when she was pregnant with me.      I started to discuss something’s with my Mom like the problems I have and it is very difficult as she started to go in the direction that it is all her fault.     My Mother also had a brother with Myotonic dystrophy but since he is her half brother we don’t know which parent was the carrier of this genetic disorder, no one else in the family seems to be affected with Myotonic dystrophy except him.     I am just trying to sort things out for myself, I don’t think there is any hope for me getting better as whatever I have seems to be progressing.  All I know is that I have been searching for answers and coming up with not much.     Vicky

Response:

   Hi All,    Sorry for the possibly offensive implications of the subject title.  I am new here.       My Mother when she was pregnant with me started having seizures for the first time that she knows of.        I have been dxed with learning disabilities and when I had a IQ test done by a psychologist the psychologist said with the profile on the IQ test it seemed like brain damage.  I have also had auras in the past but never have experienced a full blown seizure, that I am aware of.     I was wondering if anyone know if seizures can affect a unborn child and if this could have been a cause to my problems.  My mother had temporal lobe seizures I think, when I was little she took Phenobarbital and dilantin for seizures but I don’t think she took meds when she was pregnant with me.      I started to discuss something’s with my Mom like the problems I have and it is very difficult as she started to go in the direction that it is all her fault.     My Mother also had a brother with Myotonic dystrophy but since he is her half brother we don’t know which parent was the carrier of this genetic disorder, no one else in the family seems to be affected with Myotonic dystrophy except him.     I am just trying to sort things out for myself, I don’t think there is any hope for me getting better as whatever I have seems to be progressing.  All I know is that I have been searching for answers and coming up with not much.       Vicky

Response:

http://www.emedicine.com/NEURO/topic141.htm At the above site I found this quote under Medications: "Anticonvulsants indicated for use in partial seizures are the medical treatment of choice. Patients will generally require many years of treatment, so consideration of side effects is important. While most of the anticonvulsants are in pregnancy category C or D, the risk of medication to the fetus must be weighed against the risk of maternal seizures to the fetus." This quote answers your question partially, "the risk of medication to the fetus must be weighed against the risk of maternal seizures to the fetus." This quote tells you the rest of what you might need to know : http://www.cis.rit.edu/people/faculty/pelz/eagr/a/faqs.htm "Any injury to the developing brain before, during, or after birth can cause epilepsy. This could include maternal infections, oxygen deprivation, and difficult deliveries; also infections, severe jaundice, low blood sugar or calcium levels in early infancy, especially in preemies. Also included could be head injuries at any time, meningitis, encephalitis, brain abscesses, lead or mercury poisoning, and brain tumor, strokes, or other circulatory problems. " So , if your mom experienced oxygen lack or an autonomic seizure affecting the circulation, or her seizures caused you some kind of other continued fetal distress concerning the brain then yes.—Cheryl "Vicky" <eye-expr…@attbi.com

wrote in message

news:3C5FE5CD.317109D5@attbi.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

   Hi All,    Sorry for the possibly offensive implications of the subject title.  I am new here.     My Mother when she was pregnant with me started having seizures for the first time that she knows of.      I have been dxed with learning disabilities and when I had a IQ test done by a psychologist the psychologist said with the profile on the IQ test it seemed like brain damage.  I have also had auras in the past but never have experienced a full blown seizure, that I am aware of.     I was wondering if anyone know if seizures can affect a unborn child and if this could have been a cause to my problems.  My mother had temporal lobe seizures I think, when I was little she took Phenobarbital and dilantin for seizures but I don’t think she took meds when she was pregnant with me.      I started to discuss something’s with my Mom like the problems I have and it is very difficult as she started to go in the direction that it is all her fault.     My Mother also had a brother with Myotonic dystrophy but since he is her half brother we don’t know which parent was the carrier of this genetic disorder, no one else in the family seems to be affected with Myotonic dystrophy except him.     I am just trying to sort things out for myself, I don’t think there is any hope for me getting better as whatever I have seems to be progressing.  All I know is that I have been searching for answers and coming up with not much.     Vicky

Response:

Question:

I am presently taking Geodon.  The side effects seem to be fatigue and weight gain, but it is hard to tell because I am also taking other drugs with the same side effects profile.  I haven’t noticed any other problem connected with the Geodon.  It is a new medication, and considered to be a good one. pax Dei, Night Hawk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Readers,      I am starting this new med called Geodon. Has anyone heard about it? What are the side effects with this medication? Thanks, Lenny

Response:

Dear Readers,      I am starting this new med called Geodon. Has anyone heard about it? What are the side effects with this medication?

Here goes: http://www.rxlist.com/frame/display.cgi?drug=Geodon ziprasidone Pronunciation: zih PRAISE a don Brand: Geodon What is the most important information I should know about ziprasidone?         Do not take ziprasidone if you have any of the following conditions or a history of these conditions: heart disease; an irregular heartbeat or a history of irregular heartbeats; a history of prolonged QT intervals; a family history of congenital long QT syndrome; or other heartbeat disturbances. These conditions may increase the risk of irregular heartbeats, heart attack, and death while taking ziprasidone.         Do not take ziprasidone with any of the following drugs: psychiatric medications such as thioridazine (Mellaril, others) and pimozide (Orap); heart medications such as quinidine (Cardioquin, Quinaglute Dura-Tabs, Quinidex, Quinora, others), dofetilide (Tikosyn), and sotalol (Betapace, Betapace AF, others), or antibiotics such as moxifloxacin (Avelox) or sparfloxacin (Zagam). Taken with any of these drugs, ziprasidone may cause irregular heartbeats that could lead to death. This is not a complete list of drugs that may interact with ziprasidone and cause heart problems. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist before taking any other prescription or over-the-counter medications.         Call your doctor immediately if you experience uncontrollable movements of the mouth, tongue, cheeks, jaw, arms, or legs.         Call your doctor immediately if you experience fever, sweating, severe muscle stiffness (rigidity), confusion, or fast or irregular heartbeats. These could be symptoms of a potentially fatal side effect called Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome (NMS).         Use caution when driving, operating machinery, or performing other hazardous activities. Ziprasidone may cause dizziness or drowsiness. If you experience dizziness or drowsiness, avoid these activities.         Dizziness may be more likely to occur when you rise from a sitting or lying position. Rise slowly to prevent dizziness and a possible fall.         Avoid alcohol or use it with caution while taking ziprasidone. Alcohol may increase drowsiness and dizziness while you are taking ziprasidone.         Avoid becoming overheated in hot weather and during exercise. Ziprasidone may increase the risk of heat stroke. What is ziprasidone?         Ziprasidone is an antipsychotic medication. It works by changing the effects of chemicals in your brain.         Ziprasidone is used to manage the symptoms of psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia.         Ziprasidone may also be used for purposes other than those listed in this medication guide. Who should not take ziprasidone?         Do not take ziprasidone if you have any of the following conditions or a history of these conditions: heart disease; an irregular heartbeat or a history of irregular heartbeats; a history of prolonged QT intervals; a family history of congenital long QT syndrome; or other heartbeat disturbances. These conditions may increase the risk of irregular heartbeats, heart attack, and death while taking ziprasidone.         Do not take ziprasidone with any of the following drugs: psychiatric medications such as thioridazine (Mellaril, others) and pimozide (Orap); heart medications such as quinidine (Cardioquin, Quinaglute Dura-Tabs, Quinidex, Quinora, others), dofetilide (Tikosyn), and sotalol (Betapace, Betapace AF, others), or antibiotics such as moxifloxacin (Avelox) or sparfloxacin (Zagam). Taken with any of these drugs, ziprasidone may cause irregular heartbeats that could lead to death. This is not a complete list of drugs that may interact with ziprasidone and cause heart problems. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist before taking any other prescription or over-the-counter medications.         Before taking ziprasidone, tell your doctor if you have

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – greetings… I am bipolar II as well, and currently on Gabapentin for my manic side and Effexor XR for depression. It’s my understanding that Gabapentin is used as a mood stabilizer for manic phases. I have been on this combo for almost four weeks now. I believe it is working slowly for me, though when my PDoc gets back from holidays, I think we will probably be increasing the Gabapentin, as I see some little manic habits (OCD) appearing in me. Good luck to you, and take care, Compucat Hi I’m bipolar II. depression coming and no depression meds have helped me. can anyone tell me about gabapentin topomax.. etc meds – do they help depressive phases as well?

Yes. Check out the links posted here recently. Much of the research seems to support the idea that mood stabilizers *do* help raise depression.  This has also been my personal experience, specifically, lithium will not only blunt my mania, but will help lift my depression. Standard protocol is to try Lithium or Depakote first. I think I read somewhere that 80% of patients will respond favorably to one or the other of these first-line treatments. p0rtabell0

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Hi I’m bipolar II. depression coming and no depression meds have helped me. can anyone tell me about gabapentin topomax.. etc meds – do they help depressive phases as well?

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greetings… I am bipolar II as well, and currently on Gabapentin for my manic side and Effexor XR for depression. It’s my understanding that Gabapentin is used as a mood stabilizer for manic phases. I have been on this combo for almost four weeks now. I believe it is working slowly for me, though when my PDoc gets back from holidays, I think we will probably be increasing the Gabapentin, as I see some little manic habits (OCD) appearing in me. Good luck to you, and take care, Compucat

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I’m bipolar II. depression coming and no depression meds have helped me. can anyone tell me about gabapentin topomax.. etc meds – do they help depressive phases as well?

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Hi and Welcome to the ng, I’m bipolar II. depression coming and no depression meds have helped me. can anyone tell me about gabapentin topomax.. etc meds – do they help depressive phases as well?

They are used for both the depressed and manic phases. Here is some nfo: http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.topiramate.html FAQ: Topiramate (Topamax), Mood Disorders and PTSD. NOTE: Topiramate is only approved for the treatment of people with seizures. There are no systematic studies that establish the safety or efficacy of topiramate as a treatment for people with mood disorders or PTSD. While such studies are getting underway, what is currently known about the use of topiramate for the control of mood disorders and PTSD comes from uncontrolled case reports. 1. What is topiramate (Topamax)? Topiramate is an anticonvulsant that is chemically unrelated to any other anticonvulsant or mood regulating medication. The mechanism of action is unknown. 2. When was topiramate approved for marketing in the USA and for what indications may it be promoted? topiramate received final approval for marketing in the USDA on 24 December 1996 and is labeled for use as an anticonvulsant. 3. Is a generic version of topiramate available? There is no generic topiramate as the manufacturer has patent protection. 4. How does topiramate differ from other mood stabilizing drugs? Topiramate differs from other mood stabilizing drugs in two major ways: 1. topiramate’s frequent effectiveness for patients who have failed to respond to antidepressants or mood stabilizers; 2. topiramate’s unique side-effect profile. 5. What, if anything, uniquely distinguishes topiramate from carbamazepine and valproate? Topiramate has been successful in controlling rapid cycling and mixed bipolar states in people who have not received adequate relief from carbamazepine and/or valproate. 6. People with what sorts of disorders are candidates for treatment with topiramate? It is too early to be very specific about which mood disorders are most likely to respond to treatment with topiramate. There are just about no published reports on topiramate’s use in psychiatry. Patients with hard-to-treat bipolar syndromes have been treated more often than patients with "treatment-resistant" unipolar disorders. topiramate seems especially useful when it comes to treating people who have become manic as the result treatment with lamotrigine. There has recently been a report regarding the control of the symptoms of PTSD by topiramate. 7. Is topiramate useful for the treatment of acute depressed, manic and mixed states, and can it also be used to prevent future episodes of mania and/or depression? The initial use of topiramate was to treat people with depressed, manic rapid-cycling, and mixed states that did not respond to existing medications. Some patients are now being maintained on topiramate on a long term basis in an attempt to prevent future episodes. The effectiveness of topiramate as a long-term prophylactic agent is currently being established. 8. Are there any laboratory tests that should precede the start of topiramate therapy? Before topiramate is prescribed the patient should have a thorough medical evaluation, including blood and urine tests, to rule out any medical condition, such as thyroid disorders, that may cause or exacerbate a mood disorder. 9. How is treatment with topiramate initiated? Topiramate is usually initially prescribed at an initial dose of 12.5 -25 mg once or twice a day and the total daily dose is increased by 12.5 – 25 mg every week. When prescribed in addition to other anticonvulsants being used as mood stabilizers, the final dose is often between 100 and 200 mg per day. Some patient with Bipolar Disorder do well on as little as a total daily dose of 50 mg/day. When used for the control of the symptoms of PTSD the average final dose is about 175 mg/day (with a range of 25 – 500 mg/day). 10. Are there any special problems prescribing topiramate for people taking lithium, carbamazepine (Tegretol), or valproate (Depakene, Depakote)? An interaction between lithium and topiramate has not been reported. Carbamazepine and valproate both have the ability to lower plasma levels of topiramate . . . carbamazepine by about 50% and valproate by about 15%. Topiramate has no effect on the plasma level of carbamazepine but can reduce the plasma level of valproate by about 10%. Pharmacokinetic interactions between topiramate and either lamotrigine (Lamictal) or gabapentin (Neurontin) have not been reported. 11. What is the usual final dose of topiramate? When used as a mood-stabilizing agent the final dose of topiramate is most often between 50 and 200 mg/day. Some people require doses as high as 400 mg/day to achieve a good mood stabilizing effect . . . especially when topiramate is being used as a monotherapy . . . while others do fine on 25 mg/day. 12. How long does it take for topiramate to ‘kick-in?’ While some people notice the antimanic and antidepressant effects early in treatment, others have to take a therapeutic amount of topiramate for up to a month before being aware of a significant amount of improvement. 13. What are the side-effects of topiramate? Here is a listing of topiramate’s side effects that affected 10% or more of the 711 people taking the drug during clinical trials and the frequency of those side effects in the 419 people treated with placebo in those trials:                   Common Adverse Reactions (%)                    (Topiramate = 200 mg/day)           Adverse Reaction     Topiramate         Placebo           Somnolence               30                10           Dizziness                28                14           Vision problems          28                 9           Unsteadiness             21                 7           Speech problems          17                 3           Psychomotor slowing      17                 2           "Pins and needles"       15                 3           Nervousness              16                 8           Nausea                   12                 6           Memory problems          12                 3           Tremor                   11                 6           Confusion                10                 6 Side-effects are most noticeable the few days after an increase in dose and then often fade. 14. Which side-effects are severe enough to force people to discontinue topiramate? The side-effects that most frequently caused people to discontinue therapy with topiramate were: psychomotor slowing (4.1%), memory problems ( (3.3%), fatigue (3.3%), confusion (3.2%), and somnolence (3.2%). 15. Does topiramate have any psychiatric side effects? Among the reported side effects of topiramate are sedation, psychomotor slowing, agitation, anxiety, concentration problems, forgetfulness, confusion, depression, and depersonalization. As with other anticonvulsants, psychosis has rarely been reported as a side-effect. 16. How does topiramate interact with prescription and over-the-counter medications? Only a few interactions between topiramate and other drugs have been identified. Topiramate may increase the plasma level of phenytoin (Dilantin). Phenytoin lowers the concentration of topiramate in the blood by about 50%. While topiramate has little effect on the plasma level of carbamazepine, the latter may decrease the plasma level of topiramate by about 50%. Valproate lowers the plasma level of topiramate by about 15%. Topiramate may lead to decreased effectiveness of some oral anticontraceptives. Interactions with other prescription and over-the-counter drugs are not known at this time. 17. Is there an interaction between topiramate and alcohol? Alcohol may increase the severity of the side-effects of topiramate. 18. Is topiramate safe for a woman who is about to become pregnant, pregnant or nursing an infant? Topiramate is has been placed in the FDA pregnancy Category C: "Animal studies have shown an adverse effect on the fetus but there are no adequate studies in humans; The benefits from the use of the drug in pregnant women may be acceptable despite its potential risks . . . ." 19. Is topiramate safe for children and adolescents? The FDA has recently approved the use of topiramate in children. 20. Can topiramate be used in elderly people? Older people seem to handle topiramate similarly to younger ones. There is little experience using topiramate for the … read more »

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Question:

So what, in your opinion, did that prove, Bob? J

Jean, It proved that symtoms similar to those being suffered by the person in this post were treated in this method and brought comfort. I thought that this medication might be discussed with the person’s doctor as a posible relief of the symtoms.   Did this offend you?

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sounds like it’s for gall stones or elevated cholesterol…just from glancing at it ,don’t think it’s supposed to be used in chronic liver disease….(least looks like that would be a contraindicition) hepatitis or even cirrhosis could cause dk brown urine, usually you would see jaundice at this point I would think…..can’t recall if a UTI could so that…suppose it’s possible…..well, in any event I am not an MD , but it does seem a little weird….(IMO)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ursodiol Ursodiol (Actigall) Ursodiol (ur-so-DYE-ohl) Pregnancy Category: B Actigall Urso Ursofalk (Rx) Classification: Gall stone solubilizer Action/Kinetics: Naturally occurring bile acid that inhibits the hepatic synthesis and secretion of cholesterol; it also inhibits intestinal absorption of cholesterol. Acts to solubilize cholesterol in micelles and to cause dispersion of cholesterol as liquid crystals in aqueous media. Undergoes a significant first-pass effect where it is conjugated with either glycine or taurine and then secreted into hepatic bile ducts. Uses: Dissolution of gallstones in clients with radiolucent, noncalcified gallstones ( <20 mm) in whom elective surgery would be risky (i.e., systemic disease, advanced age, idiosyncratic reactions to general anesthesia) or in those who refuse surgery. Prevent gallstones in obese clients undergoing rapid weight loss. Primary biliary cirrhosis (Urso). Contraindications: Clients with calcified cholesterol stones, radiopaque stones, or radiolucent bile pigment stones. Acute cholecystitis, cholangitis, biliary obstruction, gallstone pancreatitis, biliary-gastrointestinal fistula, allergy to bile acids, chronic liver disease. Provide appropriate specifc treatment in those with variceal bleeding, hepatic encephalopathy, ascites, or in need of an urgent liver transplant. Special Concerns: Use with caution during lactation. Safety and efficacy have not been determined in children. Safety for use beyond 24 months is not known. Side Effects: GI: N&V, dyspepsia, metallic taste, abdominal pain, biliary pain, cholecystitis, constipation, stomatitis, flatulence, diarrhea. Skin: Pruritus, rash, dry skin, urticaria. CNS: Headache, fatigue, anxiety, depression, sleep disorders. Other: Sweating, thinning of hair, back pain, arthralgia, myalgia, rhinitis, cough. Overdose Management: Symptoms: Diarrhea. Treatment: Treat with supportive measures. Drug Interactions: Antacids, aluminum-containing /  Ursodiol effect R/T GI tract absorption Cholestyramine /  Ursodiol effect R/T  GI tract absorption Clofibrate /  Ursodiol effect R/T  hepatic cholesterol secretion Colestipol /  Ursodiol effect R/T  GI tract absorption Contraceptives, oral / Ursodiol effect R/T  hepatic cholesterol secretion Estrogens /  Ursodiol effect R/T hepatic cholesterol secretion How Supplied: Capsule: 300 mg; Tablet: 250 mg Dosage .Capsules Gallstones. Adults: 8-10 mg/kg/day in two or three divided doses, usually with meals. Prevent gallstones in rapid weight loss in obesity. Adults: 300 mg b.i.d. during period of weight loss. .Tablets Primary biliary cirrhosis. Adults: 13-15 mg/kg/day given in 4 divided doses with food. Autoimmune hepatitis? These are symtoms barfing at the base of the toilet because his liver is acting up….and after he becomes rail thin…and after his clotting factors become so screwed up the doctors are not sure what to do….and after he tried a million times to get rid of all the rashes.. ????? that my wife had along with very dark urine.  As far as I’m concerned a medication called "Actigall" saved her life. http://www.home.eznet.net/~webtent/ursodiol.html Actions and Uses:           Ursodiol is essentially a gallstone-solubilizing agent that is effective in dissolving small stones (<5 mm) with      low calcium content (<4%). However, it is used in liver patients primarily for its ability to stabilize (somehow) the      canalicular membrane of the hepatocytes. It may also suppress hepatic synthesis and secretion of cholesterol and      inhibit its intestinal absoprtion. Contraindications: – Chronic liver disease; calcified cholesterol stones. <snip So what, in your opinion, did that prove, Bob? J

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Autoimmune hepatitis?

These are symtoms that my wife had along with very dark urine.  As far as I’m concerned a medication called "Actigall" saved her life. http://www.home.eznet.net/~webtent/ursodiol.html

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How can liver levels (and blood clotting) be affected by an

infection?(proximity of the liver to the breasts?)

Via exotoxins, endotoxin or via a mechanism like activation of a macrophage which excretes lymphokines. If you have step throat why do you have systemic fever, feel like crap all over etc.

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I don’t believe the sub-clinical infection theory would apply in all cases..

Please don’t read more in to what I said than is there.  It definately would not apply in all cases.

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Revelation is one of my favorite poems by one of my favorite poets.  I was able to see him when I was quite young at the inauguration of John F. Kennedy Whitman, Emerson and Ben Franklin also are favorites – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WE make ourselves a place apart  Behind light words that tease and flout, But oh, the agitated heart  Till someone find us really out. ‘Tis pity if the case require  (Or so we say) that in the end We speak the literal to inspire  The understanding of a friend. But so with all, from babes that play  At hide-and-seek to God afar, So all who hide too well away  Must speak and tell us where they are.                                     – Robert Frost

Whatever is begun in anger ends in shame. -Benjamin Franklin

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Autoimmune hepatitis? These are symtoms

barfing at the base of the toilet because his liver is acting up….and after he becomes rail thin…and after his clotting factors become so screwed up the doctors are not sure what to do….and after he tried a million times to get rid of all the rashes..

????? that my wife had along with very dark urine.  As far as I’m concerned a medication called "Actigall" saved her life. http://www.home.eznet.net/~webtent/ursodiol.html

Actions and Uses:           Ursodiol is essentially a gallstone-solubilizing agent that is effective in dissolving small stones (<5 mm) with      low calcium content (<4%). However, it is used in liver patients primarily for its ability to stabilize (somehow) the      canalicular membrane of the hepatocytes. It may also suppress hepatic synthesis and secretion of cholesterol and      inhibit its intestinal absoprtion. Contraindications: