Question:

Oh – also — the Fat Fast recommends that ninety percent of calories come as fats. Some people here are losing on sixty to seventy five percent. While the Fat Fast might be too extreme( and dull) at 1000 calories a day, anyone can up their fats within reason safely. And possibly get the scale moving again. c Live From the Big Wide World Beyond Lowcarb Chat

Response:

Fat fasting is in the Atkins book. He says a non-resistant person can use it for no more than five days and on his website refers to it as a way to break a stall. Another thing he recommends in lieu of going all the way to a fat fast is to  increase fats in the diet to a higher percentage to encourage loss. Both of those things are not freelancing, they’re part of the Atkins program.

<snip Care to pont out exactly where he says it’s ok for nonmetabolically resistant people to do the fat fast? On page 273 of his newest book (paperback) he specifically says, "Let me make it clear that the Fat Fast is actually dangerous for anyone who is not metabolically resistant."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fat fasting is in the Atkins book. He says a non-resistant person can use it for no more than five days and on his website refers to it as a way to break a stall. Another thing he recommends in lieu of going all the way to a fat fast is to  increase fats in the diet to a higher percentage to encourage loss. Both of those things are not freelancing, they’re part of the Atkins program. <snip Care to pont out exactly where he says it’s ok for nonmetabolically resistant people to do the fat fast? On page 273 of his newest book (paperback) he specifically says, "Let me make it clear that the Fat Fast is actually dangerous for anyone who is not metabolically resistant."

I asked the same thing the last time c said this.  I can’t find it. Maybe some earlier version of the book said this? — Trey 225/203/145 Started Atkins Induction 07/22/02 Started OWL 08/08/02 — currently at 25 g carbs

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Once you start tinkering with a fat fast, or some other fad or stall-breaker, you’re pretty much off the program and freelancing. Fat fasting is in the Atkins book. He says a non-resistant person can use it for no more than five days and on his website refers to it as a way to break a stall. Another thing he recommends in lieu of going all the way to a fat fast is to  increase fats in the diet to a higher percentage to encourage loss. Both of those things are not freelancing, they’re part of the Atkins program. Eating minimeals is something Atkins recommends for use during fat fat periods, since, he says, people metablize smaller caloric loads better. Dr Atkins makes Atkins bars and says they’re fine for all phases of the Atkins diet — even Induction. He also urges people to limit their nuts and cheeses and in the section re Candida also  urges people to limit dairy products in certain situations. If you were to follow some of these recommendations you would end up with the Stillman diet, which, as long as it is lowcarb, is still lowcarb. Then there’s Protein Power, which has far less of a sugar-averse message. On Protein Power, as long as you limit your carbs to 40 or so a day, those carbs can be Jelly Bellys or M&M’s if you want. So when you say freelancing, do you mean doing lowcarb another way than The Kabuki Club reinforces all its members to do with no exceptions? c Under 40 a day and you’re no freelancer

Gosh c, I guess I wasn’t wearing my succinct hat when I typed the post that you’re referencing. I’m thankful that you caught it and pointed out my mistake. What I was trying to tell the original poster was that IMHO she hadn’t really stalled long enough to start freelancing with a Fat Fast or anything else. When I talked about tinkering with the program, I was talking about changing it in the initial stages because she thought it wasn’t working. I was trying to point out that if she just stuck with the standard Atkins Induction rules, the numbers would drop. Whew, I guess I made a mess of it! Thanks again. Not sure what you mean by The Kabuki Club. I’m not a member. By the way, not that you’re interested I’m sure, but I don’t "do" a standard Atkins WOE. I’ve had lots of stomach surgery and it’s left me with an inability to digest huge amounts of fats. So I eat a hybrid Atkins. Low carb, and depending on how I feel, medium fat or somedays, low fat. I have tinkered with the program. I think ,ultimately, everyone has to design or customize their program so that they can live on it.  Just not in the begininnging. Again, thanks for pointing out my error. I hope I didn’t confuse the originial poster too much. Duffy

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree that he does change his story on things like LC convenience foods, caffeine, etc. This is a little different than eating a few low carb bars or drinking coffee though. I’d be more inclined to think he’s collected more data on the effects of the fat fast in the intervening years between books rather than he’s accommodating his needs. In the 1992 book the fat fast is placed in the chapter titled "Treating Extreme Metabolic Resistance: The Unique Fat Fast". It’s true, he never comes right out and says it’s dangerous if you aren’t metabolically resistant. Then again maybe the reason he’s so explicit in his newest book is because he found that people weren’t actually paying attention to the fact that this was meant for metabolically resistant people. "Let me make it clear that the Fat Fast is actually dangerous for anyone who is not metabolically resistant." IMO the warning doesn’t leave much room for YMMV. But that’s just my opinion.

I wish he explained why it’s "actually dangerous." Even if it’s Dr. Atkins, I want to know why things are, not just that someone says they are. Kitty.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The version I have says nothing about it being dangerous – for anyone, metabolically resistant or not.  Being Atkins, he says: "And remember, this diet is only to be used by people whose body fat is as resistant to being lost as a color-fast fabric is resistant to losing its color.  That’s why I call it the Fat Fast for the Fat Fast.  It is not designed for those who want to lose fat fast.  There.  I said it and I’m not sorry." BUT, in another area he says this about it: "Those of you who are simply dissatisfied that your rate of loss is too slow should be using the regular Atkins diet and keeping to it strictly.  Don’t use this one except for brief intervals of less than five days." This contradicts the spirit of the other statement.  The only statement concerning safety for anyone is as follows: "I do not believe the Fat Fast should be used for more than one week at a time.  This is simply a safety measure because the diet has not been tested for long-term use." "Course Atkins says lots of things.  Like this, for example: "That packaged stuff in the supermarket puts money in somebody’s pocket. But try not to put it in your stomach.  This is the only body you’ve got." This is a "Pre-Bar, pre-shake" version of DANDR though.  I think the take away lesson is tailor the basic precepts to you and your needs, because Atkins certainly does it to accommodate *his*.

I agree that he does change his story on things like LC convenience foods, caffeine, etc. This is a little different than eating a few low carb bars or drinking coffee though. I’d be more inclined to think he’s collected more data on the effects of the fat fast in the intervening years between books rather than he’s accommodating his needs. In the 1992 book the fat fast is placed in the chapter titled "Treating Extreme Metabolic Resistance: The Unique Fat Fast". It’s true, he never comes right out and says it’s dangerous if you aren’t metabolically resistant. Then again maybe the reason he’s so explicit in his newest book is because he found that people weren’t actually paying attention to the fact that this was meant for metabolically resistant people. "Let me make it clear that the Fat Fast is actually dangerous for anyone who is not metabolically resistant." IMO the warning doesn’t leave much room for YMMV. But that’s just my opinion. — Jeri 265/218/120 Atkins since 11/5/01 "Set your course by the stars, and not by the lights of every passing ship." -Omar Bradley

Response:

Hi Catie,  :). Thanks Carmen. You said exactly what I was going to say only you’re  the one who did the typing and the flipping through the book.

No problem.  I owe a metric assload of gratitude to Atkins, but he’s not infallible.  Newbies do tend to look at DANDR as a holy book, and that won’t serve them in the long term. How are you at cleaning fishtanks? Any interest?

Aptitude – yes.  Interest – hell no!  I used to run three tanks, and I’m a clean freak.  It was a nightmare…..<G — Take care, Carmen Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.         – Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See

Response:

 :). Thanks Carmen. You said exactly what I was going to say only you’re the one who did the typing and the flipping through the book. From an editorial standpoint, this post is stellar as well. I lucked out completely here.   c How are you at cleaning fishtanks? Any interest?

Response:

Hello, Care to pont out exactly where he says it’s ok for nonmetabolically resistant people to do the fat fast? On page 273 of his newest book (paperback) he specifically says, "Let me make it clear that the Fat Fast is actually dangerous for anyone who is not metabolically resistant." I asked the same thing the last time c said this.  I can’t find it. Maybe some earlier version of the book said this?

The version I have says nothing about it being dangerous – for anyone, metabolically resistant or not.  Being Atkins, he says: "And remember, this diet is only to be used by people whose body fat is as resistant to being lost as a color-fast fabric is resistant to losing its color.  That’s why I call it the Fat Fast for the Fat Fast.  It is not designed for those who want to lose fat fast.  There.  I said it and I’m not sorry." BUT, in another area he says this about it: "Those of you who are simply dissatisfied that your rate of loss is too slow should be using the regular Atkins diet and keeping to it strictly.  Don’t use this one except for brief intervals of less than five days." This contradicts the spirit of the other statement.  The only statement concerning safety for anyone is as follows: "I do not believe the Fat Fast should be used for more than one week at a time.  This is simply a safety measure because the diet has not been tested for long-term use." "Course Atkins says lots of things.  Like this, for example: "That packaged stuff in the supermarket puts money in somebody’s pocket. But try not to put it in your stomach.  This is the only body you’ve got." This is a "Pre-Bar, pre-shake" version of DANDR though.  I think the take away lesson is tailor the basic precepts to you and your needs, because Atkins certainly does it to accommodate *his*. — Take care, Carmen Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.         – Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See

Response:

Once you start tinkering with a fat fast, or some other fad or stall-breaker, you’re pretty much off the program and freelancing.

Fat fasting is in the Atkins book. He says a non-resistant person can use it for no more than five days and on his website refers to it as a way to break a stall. Another thing he recommends in lieu of going all the way to a fat fast is to  increase fats in the diet to a higher percentage to encourage loss. Both of those things are not freelancing, they’re part of the Atkins program. Eating minimeals is something Atkins recommends for use during fat fat periods, since, he says, people metablize smaller caloric loads better. Dr Atkins makes Atkins bars and says they’re fine for all phases of the Atkins diet — even Induction. He also urges people to limit their nuts and cheeses and in the section re Candida also  urges people to limit dairy products in certain situations. If you were to follow some of these recommendations you would end up with the Stillman diet, which, as long as it is lowcarb, is still lowcarb. Then there’s Protein Power, which has far less of a sugar-averse message. On Protein Power, as long as you limit your carbs to 40 or so a day, those carbs can be Jelly Bellys or M&M’s if you want. So when you say freelancing, do you mean doing lowcarb another way than The Kabuki Club reinforces all its members to do with no exceptions? c Under 40 a day and you’re no freelancer

Response:

i am on my 14th day of induction. i lost 5 lbs the first 4 days and stalled. i am a little frustrated, but not enough to give up. atkins’ optimism that this works is really infectious. i would have given up on any other plan. i am thinking of doing the fat fast a couple days or so to kick start the weight loss. i know atkins says it is dangerous for those who lose easily, but i’m thinking i’m not one of those people. i also suspect i may have PCOS. anyone else out there have this condition? could this be a reason i am losing so slowly? as i read atkins, he kept saying how fast people lose weight on his plan and i was getting a little excited, a little scared. i kept thinking i will probably be one of the 1% that doesn’t lose much because i honestly do not lose weight easily. tia pam 250/245/i’ve lowered my standards to anything under 200!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i am on my 14th day of induction. i lost 5 lbs the first 4 days and stalled. i am a little frustrated, but not enough to give up. atkins’ optimism that this works is really infectious. i would have given up on any other plan. i am thinking of doing the fat fast a couple days or so to kick start the weight loss. i know atkins says it is dangerous for those who lose easily, but i’m thinking i’m not one of those people. i also suspect i may have PCOS. anyone else out there have this condition? could this be a reason i am losing so slowly? as i read atkins, he kept saying how fast people lose weight on his plan and i was getting a little excited, a little scared. i kept thinking i will probably be one of the 1% that doesn’t lose much because i honestly do not lose weight easily. tia pam 250/245/i’ve lowered my standards to anything under 200!

If you are not losing, watch your total calorie intake. And make sure you are not consuming too many ‘hidden’ carbs. You might also get a Thyroid test, though that may not help. I have symptoms of low thyroid but normal tests. I also have a difficult time losing weight, even on low carb. Fat fast can kick start weight loss, but due to the restricted time you can do that, won’t help for long term loss.

Response:

I have PCOS, though I suffer from just a few of the symptoms. I would take a look at some PCOS sites. There is a lot of information out there about the symptoms and the treatments. I can tell you that I have had phenomenal success just by changing my diet. One of the side affects of the disorder, in me at least, is a propensity to gain copious amounts of weight very easily. I have been able to successfully lose weight and keep my other symptoms at bay. I stopped having ovarian pain, I stopped growing hair on my face and I stopped having acne. I look and feel much better. The weight loss is nice but feeling healthy is the best side affect of all!!! Good luck Chelle — 29 years old 5′8" Highest Weight: 275 (12-01) Weight When Began Atkins: 227 (7-28-02) Today’s Weight: 190 (8-16-02) Goal Weight: 160 (?)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i am on my 14th day of induction. i lost 5 lbs the first 4 days and stalled. i am a little frustrated, but not enough to give up. atkins’ optimism that this works is really infectious. i would have given up on any other plan. i am thinking of doing the fat fast a couple days or so to kick start the weight loss. i know atkins says it is dangerous for those who lose easily, but i’m thinking i’m not one of those people. i also suspect i may have PCOS. anyone else out there have this condition? could this be a reason i am losing so slowly? as i read atkins, he kept saying how fast people lose weight on his plan and i was getting a little excited, a little scared. i kept thinking i will probably be one of the 1% that doesn’t lose much because i honestly do not lose weight easily. tia pam 250/245/i’ve lowered my standards to anything under 200!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Four days of no weight loss is not a stall!  In fact it’s a pretty common.  Six to eight *weeks* with no weight *or* inches lost is a stall. Anything less is just a temporary readjustment of your body. Low carb is not a crash diet!    Most of us here are aware that it’s a life-time commitment (WOL). Given where you are in the process (extremely early), plus your diet hasn’t been scrutinized by carb police based on detailed info you’d need to provide, and given that you and your doctor have not established any metabolic resistance, the fat fast would not at all be a prudent thing to pursue. You need more patience and  a rereading the book, as  it definitely covers all these things and much more. Don’t get wowed by al the type of the fast losers.  The fast losers are always happy to rave about it as are the authors of low-carb books. But, there are a whole lot of low-carbers that don’t fall into that overly impressive category, that keep a lower profile, and are happily losing weight over time and progressing toward their goals.  Things like age, exercise activity, gender, overall health, adherence to the diet, discovering what slows or speeds weight loss, etc. all come into the picture. — Wildflower Atkins Induction Since 01/12/02 F    5′ 9"   52 184 / 154 / 136

Pam, I second all of Wildflower’s statements. Please read her post and then re-read it again. If you read some of the posts on the newsgroup, it’s easy to think that you’re going to reach your goal weight in a very short period of time. Some people do. Most people do not. I started low carbing on November 27, 2001. My weight was 182. This morning, August 30, 2002, my scale read 138. I don’t consider myself a really slow loser – I think I’m pretty average. If you’re following the rules correctly and eating the foods you should, the scales numbers will drop. They might not drop with the lightning speed that you see some folks post here, but they will come down. Once you start tinkering with a fat fast, or some other fad or stall-breaker, you’re pretty much off the program and freelancing. Sadly, in my opinion, low carb freelancing rarely produces long term positive results. Duffy 182/138/130 or lower sz 16/8 or 10/?? Member of Carol Ann’s 9/1 Challenge

Response:

Four days of no weight loss is not a stall!  In fact it’s a pretty common.  Six to eight *weeks* with no weight *or* inches lost is a stall. Anything less is just a temporary readjustment of your body. Low carb is not a crash diet!    Most of us here are aware that it’s a life-time commitment (WOL). Given where you are in the process (extremely early), plus your diet hasn’t been scrutinized by carb police based on detailed info you’d need to provide, and given that you and your doctor have not established any metabolic resistance, the fat fast would not at all be a prudent thing to pursue. You need more patience and  a rereading the book, as  it definitely covers all these things and much more. Don’t get wowed by al the type of the fast losers.  The fast losers are always happy to rave about it as are the authors of low-carb books. But, there are a whole lot of low-carbers that don’t fall into that overly impressive category, that keep a lower profile, and are happily losing weight over time and progressing toward their goals.  Things like age, exercise activity, gender, overall health, adherence to the diet, discovering what slows or speeds weight loss, etc. all come into the picture. — Wildflower Atkins Induction Since 01/12/02 F    5′ 9"   52 184 / 154 / 136

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i am on my 14th day of induction. i lost 5 lbs the first 4 days and stalled. i am a little frustrated, but not enough to give up. atkins’ optimism that this works is really infectious. i would have given up on any other plan. i am thinking of doing the fat fast a couple days or so to kick start the weight loss. i know atkins says it is dangerous for those who lose easily, but i’m thinking i’m not one of those people. i also suspect i may have PCOS. anyone else out there have this condition? could this be a reason i am losing so slowly? as i read atkins, he kept saying how fast people lose weight on his plan and i was getting a little excited, a little scared. i kept thinking i will probably be one of the 1% that doesn’t lose much because i honestly do not lose weight easily. tia pam 250/245/i’ve lowered my standards to anything under 200!

Response:

Question:

This morning when I went to my water exercise group I got very chilled while in the pool. The water temp was the same as usual, 90 degrees, I checked the pool thermometer myself. The pool is kept so warm because most of the swimmers are seniors and many are arthritic. I wasn’t exercising quite as actively today because I wasn’t feeling quite up to par, but I don’t think I was that inactive. I finally got out of the pool a few minutes early because I was so uncomfortable. This has happened to me a few times in the past also, but it isn’t usual. It has also happened a few other times in recent years when I *wasn’t* swimming. Always in cooler weather, of course. When I get these episodes I feel as though I am cold from the inside, like my *bones* are cold, and I have difficulty getting warm again.  I have actually come home and gone to bed under an electric blanket to get warm. Once I finally re-warm I am fine.  I have my thyroid  checked regularly, and it is always normal. I don’t have any other symptoms of low thyroid except that my weight loss is slow.  Ideas anyone? Alpha

Response:

No clue actually (Sorry). Have you tried sitting in the sauna or whirlpool?  Those are great for warming up your bones. Other than that I use hot drink if I feel chilled to the bone.  Tea, coffee, broth, soups, stews, etc. HTH, Ken 270/253! This morning when I went to my water exercise group I got very chilled while in the pool. The water temp was the same as usual, 90

degrees, I …

Response:

My mom has fibromyalgia and does water aerobics for exercise, her pool is heated the same as yours (90 degrees or so). She was talking to someone in her group, and they said they had read some research that suggested that the reason she is chilled in water that warm is that her pain receptors are inflamed and causing her body temperature to rise (it might only be a few 0.1 degrees), so she perceives the water as cooler than it was. They suggested she track her temp (kinda like natural family planning) and when she sees her temp rise, to take some Tylenol or ibuprofen or whatever BEFORE she goes to the pool. I can’t say whether this works or not, as she only found out about it on Monday, but it could be related to your situation somehow. HTH! Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This morning when I went to my water exercise group I got very chilled while in the pool. The water temp was the same as usual, 90 degrees, I checked the pool thermometer myself. The pool is kept so warm because most of the swimmers are seniors and many are arthritic. I wasn’t exercising quite as actively today because I wasn’t feeling quite up to par, but I don’t think I was that inactive. I finally got out of the pool a few minutes early because I was so uncomfortable. This has happened to me a few times in the past also, but it isn’t usual. It has also happened a few other times in recent years when I *wasn’t* swimming. Always in cooler weather, of course. When I get these episodes I feel as though I am cold from the inside, like my *bones* are cold, and I have difficulty getting warm again.  I have actually come home and gone to bed under an electric blanket to get warm. Once I finally re-warm I am fine.  I have my thyroid  checked regularly, and it is always normal. I don’t have any other symptoms of low thyroid except that my weight loss is slow.  Ideas anyone? Alpha

Response:

My mom has fibromyalgia and does water aerobics for exercise, her pool is heated the same as yours (90 degrees or so). She was talking to someone in her group, and they said they had read some research that suggested that the reason she is chilled in water that warm is that her pain receptors are inflamed and causing her body temperature to rise (it might only be a few 0.1 degrees), so she perceives the water as cooler than it was. They suggested she track her temp (kinda like natural family planning) and when she sees her temp rise, to take some Tylenol or ibuprofen or whatever BEFORE she goes to the pool. I can’t say whether this works or not, as she only found out about it on Monday, but it could be related to your situation somehow. HTH! Michelle

Thanks for that suggestion Michelle. I never took my temp yesterday, but I was cold all day.  Then cold all night too in a warm house.  I slept in a sweat suit and covered with two heavy wool blankets.  This morning about two hours ago my temp was 97 oral.  I drank a big mug of hot coffee, not decaf, and made myself get up and start moving.  Just took my temp again, its normal and I’m not chilling for the first time in 24 hours.   This morning I went to about.com and did a search on "low body temp". The only information that seemed to fit was maybe my thyroid is slightly low, but tests normal.  I know that can happen.  I’m going to check my temp every time this happens for a while and if it continues I’ll talk to my doctor about doing some more comprehensive thyroid testing.  In the meantime I’ll watch for other clues to a possible cause. Alpha

Response:

i keep my pool at 80-82 and find that anything higher is detrimental to my body thermometer! — read and post daily! rosie REMEMBER: "Stressed" spelled backwards is "desserts." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My mom has fibromyalgia and does water aerobics for exercise, her pool is heated the same as yours (90 degrees or so). She was talking to someone in her group, and they said they had read some research that suggested that the reason she is chilled in water that warm is that her pain receptors are inflamed and causing her body temperature to rise (it might only be a few 0.1 degrees), so she perceives the water as cooler than it was. They suggested she track her temp (kinda like natural family planning) and when she sees her temp rise, to take some Tylenol or ibuprofen or whatever BEFORE she goes to the pool. I can’t say whether this works or not, as she only found out about it on Monday, but it could be related to your situation somehow. HTH! Michelle This morning when I went to my water exercise group I got very chilled while in the pool. The water temp was the same as usual, 90 degrees, I checked the pool thermometer myself. The pool is kept so warm because most of the swimmers are seniors and many are arthritic. I wasn’t exercising quite as actively today because I wasn’t feeling quite up to par, but I don’t think I was that inactive. I finally got out of the pool a few minutes early because I was so uncomfortable. This has happened to me a few times in the past also, but it isn’t usual. It has also happened a few other times in recent years when I *wasn’t* swimming. Always in cooler weather, of course. When I get these episodes I feel as though I am cold from the inside, like my *bones* are cold, and I have difficulty getting warm again.  I have actually come home and gone to bed under an electric blanket to get warm. Once I finally re-warm I am fine.  I have my thyroid  checked regularly, and it is always normal. I don’t have any other symptoms of low thyroid except that my weight loss is slow.  Ideas anyone? Alpha

Response:

This morning when I went to my water exercise group I got very chilled while in the pool. The water temp was the same as usual, 90 degrees, I checked the pool thermometer myself. The pool is kept so warm because most of the swimmers are seniors and many are arthritic.

90? lucky you.  The pool I use is supposed to be 82 but has been 80 or lower for months. I wasn’t exercising quite as actively today because I wasn’t feeling quite up to par, but I don’t think I was that inactive. I finally got out of the pool a few minutes early because I was so uncomfortable. This has happened to me a few times in the past also, but it isn’t usual. It has also happened a few other times in recent years when I *wasn’t* swimming. Always in cooler weather, of course.

Me too.  I sometimes have to quit because I get too cold.  I find that a hot shower before getting in the pool (right before) helps some.  But I just have to swim until I warm up (which is hard because I’m physically limited). When I get these episodes I feel as though I am cold from the inside, like my *bones* are cold, and I have difficulty getting warm again.  I have actually come home and gone to bed under an electric blanket to get warm. Once I finally re-warm I am fine.  I have my thyroid  checked regularly, and it is always normal. I don’t have any other symptoms of low thyroid except that my weight loss is slow.  Ideas anyone?

Are you good about eating regularly?  Be sure to have a good hearty meal with lots of fat in it a couple hours before you use the pool. Even a protein bar shortly before swimming may help.   You might also want to try wearing a t-shirt over your suit, and maybe even pool-safe leggings too. I find what gets me the coldest isn’t my skin tempature (though that can make it worse) but the tempature of the air I breathe in.  Being concious of that may help you breathe slightly warmer air which will warm you up a bit more. Cyndi — Lowcarb vegetarian + seafood since 7/28/98 — http://www.immuneweb.org/lowcarb/                Current goal: Body Fat Percentage: 37.3/33.8/28 "There’s nothing wrong with me.  Maybe there’s                Cyndi Norman                                                     http://www.tikvah.com/

Response:

Question:

"Sharon" <beres…@home.com

wrote in message

news:cwQV5.737419$8u4.12226165@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com…

No I feel all of those other things too, but there are no Chinese Doc’s

near

by. I was hoping to know what to look/ask for the next time I get near one. I am cold, so I want to eat, I am cranky cause I do I am tired achy and icky, and depressed, for no good reason, so anything

to

help ( other than estrogen/progesterone) would be a blessing. I keep thinking I am going to get past this meno thing some day, it has

been

dancing around inside of me for at least three years now, I had the heavy bleeds random periods and little hot flashes, but now they are very

strong,

they take my breath away. Sharon

Have you had your thyroid levels checked? The symptoms you mention are also symptoms of low thyroid. There are many things that *share* symptoms with peri and menopause. Gwen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "U Tools" <medto…@earthlink.net

wrote in message

> news:YzEV5.20888$II2.1983964@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net… > Sharon, >     I cannot remember all the things in the sack.  The Chinese doc was > treating more than just the hot flashes.  My body was achy, sometimes I was

feeling cold, and I was cranky.  I did not have much energy.  I believe

the

tea concoction was formulated to address several issues that would be different with each woman.  If you are researching herbs for just hot flashes, you might want to go to a Chinese doctor and ask for an explanation. Best, M.A.

Response:

"gs" <he…@rest.net

wrote in message

news:010EEE70A4AE455B.7F61E26A12B88D85.D3180E4BED81882B@lp.airnews.net… "Sharon" <beres…@home.com

wrote in message

news:cwQV5.737419$8u4.12226165@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com…

No I feel all of those other things too, but there are no Chinese Doc’s

near

by. I was hoping to know what to look/ask for the next time I get near one. I am cold, so I want to eat, I am cranky cause I do I am tired achy and icky, and depressed, for no good reason, so anything

to

help ( other than estrogen/progesterone) would be a blessing. I keep thinking I am going to get past this meno thing some day, it has

been

dancing around inside of me for at least three years now, I had the heavy bleeds random periods and little hot flashes, but now they are very

strong,

they take my breath away. Sharon

Have you had your thyroid levels checked? The symptoms you mention are also symptoms of low thyroid. There are many things that *share* symptoms with peri and menopause. Gwen I have had my thyroid checked a couple of times before in my life, but not since I started in on this meno journey. This is good to know My last Dr. dismissed all symptoms off on peri menopause. Sharon

Response:

"Karen Kay" <ka…@wordwrite.com

wrote in message

news:908l9h$kch$1@samba.rahul.net… Sharon <beres…@home.com

wrote: I keep thinking I am going to get past this meno thing some day, it has

been

dancing around inside of me for at least three years now, I had the heavy bleeds random periods and little hot flashes, but now they are very

strong,

they take my breath away.

I’m on year 11. (But it was only the first six or seven year that were bad.) Karen Oh yikes, so much for holding out on hope that it is "passing" soon Sharon

Response:

On Fri, 01 Dec 2000 10:19:49 -0800, Pat Kight <kig…@ucs.orst.edu

wrote:

The upshot is that dubious mixtures of "traditional Chinese herbs" are now available in pill form, on the Internet, with quick descriptions that suggest "take this for these symptoms." No diagnostic visit, no therapeutic discussions, no tailoring of the treatment to the individual’s needs. The results are, not surprisingly, pretty mixed.

Just to shunt this to another part of the yard, here is a recent warning  about some of these western HFS pill versions of TCM and another reason to work through a professional. http://www.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/alternative/11/29/herb.recall.ap/index…

Herbal products recalled because of kidney damage risk WASHINGTON (AP) — An Oregon company is recalling two brands of Chinese herbs because they may pose a serious health hazard: They were contaminated with a chemical that can destroy the kidneys.

kathryn kathr…@telus.net

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -kath…@telus.net wrote:

On Fri, 01 Dec 2000 10:19:49 -0800, Pat Kight <kig…@ucs.orst.edu wrote: The upshot is that dubious mixtures of "traditional Chinese herbs" are now available in pill form, on the Internet, with quick descriptions that suggest "take this for these symptoms." No diagnostic visit, no therapeutic discussions, no tailoring of the treatment to the individual’s needs. The results are, not surprisingly, pretty mixed. Just to shunt this to another part of the yard, here is a recent warning  about some of these western HFS pill versions of TCM and another reason to work through a professional. http://www.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/alternative/11/29/herb.recall.ap/index… Herbal products recalled because of kidney damage risk WASHINGTON (AP) — An Oregon company is recalling two brands of Chinese herbs because they may pose a serious health hazard: They were contaminated with a chemical that can destroy the kidneys.

Excellent point, Kathryn. This isn’t the first time I’ve seen such warnings; IIRC, there was some question about heavy-metal contamination in some brands of "Chinese remedies" sold in the US a few years back. –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

From: Karen Kay ka…@wordwrite.com Date: 12/1/00 10:50 AM Pacific Standard Time Pat Kight <kig…@ucs.orst.edu wrote: Many traditional healing practices work surprisingly well – *within the context* of those traditions and cultures. Yank them out and apply a Western quick-fix approach, and they’re worse than useless – they can be downright dangerous. Good point. Btw, I did speak with my acupuncturist (who is trained in Western and Chinese herbalism) about the longterm use of ginseng. She said that   it depends on the type of ginseng, how much is used, and on the person using it. She also verified that in TCM, this is a no-no. Karen

"This" being long-term use of ginseng? Sorry,not sure what you mean. Sharon..*.eat your fruits and veggies and exercise daily*

Response:

I have read that there is a Natural Hormone Replacement therapy that involves natural precursor molecules derived from plants that are converted into molecules that are identical in structure to and act like human estrogen, progesterone and testosterone.  This medication is compounded by pharmacists and is known to  have little to no side effects. It offers an alternative to the synthetic hormones that differ in structure to human hormones and are associated with side-effects and cancer-risks. If anyone has had experience with NHRT or has any info. to offer it would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks! Christa C1to…@cs.com

Response:

My Wife tried Red Clover which is supposed to work miracles. It had absolutely no effect whatsoever! Yet another rip off! Dave "C1TOPAZ" <c1to…@cs.com

wrote in message

news:20001126140244.23546.00000105@ng-fm1.news.cs.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I have read that there is a Natural Hormone Replacement therapy that

involves

natural precursor molecules derived from plants that are converted into molecules that are identical in structure to and act like human estrogen, progesterone and testosterone.  This medication is compounded by

pharmacists

and is known to  have little to no side effects. It offers an alternative

to

the synthetic hormones that differ in structure to human hormones and are associated with side-effects and cancer-risks. If anyone has had experience with NHRT or has any info. to offer it would

be

greatly appreciated.  Thanks! Christa C1to…@cs.com

Response:

On 26 Nov 2000 19:02:44 GMT, c1to…@cs.com (C1TOPAZ) wrote:

I have read that there is a Natural Hormone Replacement therapy that involves natural precursor molecules derived from plants that are converted into molecules that are identical in structure to and act like human estrogen, progesterone and testosterone.  This medication is compounded by pharmacists and is known to  have little to no side effects. It offers an alternative to the synthetic hormones that differ in structure to human hormones and are associated with side-effects and cancer-risks. If anyone has had experience with NHRT or has any info. to offer it would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks! Christa C1to…@cs.com

Hi Christa, where did you read the above? I suggest that if you want some sound objective information about hormones for menopause you find and read Dr. Susan Love’s "Hormone Book" It should be in any public library. I would like to make 3 points from your comment above. I hope someone else will get here soon and explain this a little clearer than my attempt. (1) first taking anything to replace our hormones is not "natural" IMO, that said almost all of the mainstream estrogen drug products used in HRT are "derived from plants", Premarin is the only exception in that it is derived from a natural animal source, mare’s urine.They are reformatted to match the structure of human hormones. (2) compounding pharmacies use the same derived chemicals, usually from the same manufacturer, as the mainstream pharmaceutical companies, to make up the hormone products they sell. The only thing special in the products from a compounding pharmacie is that you can have a formulation made to order for you. (3) phytohormones or plant hormone mimics such as red clover or soy isoflavones are something entirely different.They do not convert to hormones in our own bodies. They "may" act the same as our own hormones, or they "may" compete with our own hornones. What happens in any case depends the individual woman. As I mentioned in another post these products are basically untested and there is no way of knowing if they have side effects or not. Phytohormones products are available from many sources not just from compounding pharmacies.Phytohormones are also available in many of the foods we eat. Kathryn kathr…@telus.net

Response:

I was having problems with hot flashes, etc., and went to a Chinese doctor who gave me some herbs to make a tea.  Within a week, no hot flashes, more energy.  I’ve been drinking the horrible tasting stuff for a couple of months.  I feel like myself again. M.A. Karen Kay <ka…@wordwrite.com

wrote in message

news:8vs946$7fe$1@samba.rahul.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

C1TOPAZ <c1to…@cs.com wrote: This medication is compounded by pharmacists and is known to  have little to no side effects. This is NOT true. Compounded HRT has essentially the same side-effects as any other HRT. I was on ‘natural hormones’ for a year and a half, and I had never experienced PMS till I started these hormones. It offers an alternative to the synthetic hormones that differ in structure to human hormones and are associated with side-effects and cancer-risks. The cancer risks are no different; exogenous hormones are exogenous hormones. Karen

Response:

From: "U Tools" medto…@earthlink.net Date: 11/27/00 6:27 PM Pacific Standard Time I was having problems with hot flashes, etc., and went to a Chinese doctor who gave me some herbs to make a tea.  Within a week, no hot flashes, more energy.  I’ve been drinking the horrible tasting stuff for a couple of months.  I feel like myself again.

And you have no idea what you’re taking?? Sharon..*.eat your fruits and veggies and exercise daily*

Response:

A friend who is an MD/medical school prof went through the sack and identified the different barks and roots.  He explained.  He teaches seminars on the integration of Eastern/Western medicine.  The Chinese have been treating folks for a long time. Frankenmel <franken…@aol.comnospam

wrote in message

news:20001127213221.17358.00002795@ng-cg1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

From: "U Tools" medto…@earthlink.net Date: 11/27/00 6:27 PM Pacific Standard Time I was having problems with hot flashes, etc., and went to a Chinese

doctor

who gave me some herbs to make a tea.  Within a week, no hot flashes,

more

energy.  I’ve been drinking the horrible tasting stuff for a couple of months.  I feel like myself again. And you have no idea what you’re taking?? Sharon..*.eat your fruits and veggies and exercise daily*

Response:

I have just found this group. I am doing research for hot flashes and I would be very interested in what is in the sack. Sharon "U Tools" <medto…@earthlink.net

wrote in message

news:w4ZU5.13248$II2.1311380@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net… A friend who is an MD/medical school prof went through the sack and identified the different barks and roots.  He explained.  He teaches seminars on the integration of Eastern/Western medicine.  The Chinese have been treating folks for a long time. Frankenmel <franken…@aol.comnospam

wrote in message

news:20001127213221.17358.00002795@ng-cg1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

From: "U Tools" medto…@earthlink.net Date: 11/27/00 6:27 PM Pacific Standard Time I was having problems with hot flashes, etc., and went to a Chinese

doctor

who gave me some herbs to make a tea.  Within a week, no hot flashes,

more

energy.  I’ve been drinking the horrible tasting stuff for a couple of months.  I feel like myself again. And you have no idea what you’re taking?? Sharon..*.eat your fruits and veggies and exercise daily*

Response:

No I feel all of those other things too, but there are no Chinese Doc’s near by. I was hoping to know what to look/ask for the next time I get near one. I am cold, so I want to eat, I am cranky cause I do I am tired achy and icky, and depressed, for no good reason, so anything to help ( other than estrogen/progesterone) would be a blessing. I keep thinking I am going to get past this meno thing some day, it has been dancing around inside of me for at least three years now, I had the heavy bleeds random periods and little hot flashes, but now they are very strong, they take my breath away. Sharon "U Tools" <medto…@earthlink.net

wrote in message

news:YzEV5.20888$II2.1983964@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net… Sharon,     I cannot remember all the things in the sack.  The Chinese doc was treating more than just the hot flashes.  My body was achy, sometimes I was feeling cold, and I was cranky.  I did not have much energy.  I believe the tea concoction was formulated to address several issues that would be different with each woman.  If you are researching herbs for just hot flashes, you might want to go to a Chinese doctor and ask for an explanation. Best, M.A.

Response:

U Tools wrote:

Sharon,     I cannot remember all the things in the sack.  The Chinese doc was treating more than just the hot flashes.  My body was achy, sometimes I was feeling cold, and I was cranky.  I did not have much energy.  I believe the tea concoction was formulated to address several issues that would be different with each woman.  If you are researching herbs for just hot flashes, you might want to go to a Chinese doctor and ask for an explanation.

One of the issues with Western use of Chinese (and other traditional) medicine is that the treatment schemes and systems devised by traditional practice are often pretty complex, relying on carefully tailored combinations of herbs in conjunction with other, hands-on healing techniques. Chinese medicine often requires repeat visits over time so the practitioner can adjust the "prescription" according to how it’s working and other things that may be going on in the patient’s life. And the practitioner often recommends specific changes in what you eat or drink while you’re under treatment. It’s very much a whole-life treatment, and in traditional Chinese communities, there’s a good chance that those being treated are familiar with the remedies and know what to expect of them. Americans are used to spending a few minutes with a doctor, walking away with a prescription, buying that particular drug and taking it till the problem, presumably, goes away. The upshot is that dubious mixtures of "traditional Chinese herbs" are now available in pill form, on the Internet, with quick descriptions that suggest "take this for these symptoms." No diagnostic visit, no therapeutic discussions, no tailoring of the treatment to the individual’s needs. The results are, not surprisingly, pretty mixed. Many traditional healing practices work surprisingly well – *within the context* of those traditions and cultures. Yank them out and apply a Western quick-fix approach, and they’re worse than useless – they can be downright dangerous. Pardon the rant, "U Tools" (surely there’s something else we can call you!) It’s not directed at you – it sounds as if you at least had some involvement with a practitioner, and you’ve recommended that others do the same if they’re interested in Chinese medicine. I do worry about the way traditional practices get adapted by "make me better NOW" Westerners … and I think it’s smart to ask your doctor exactly what you’re taking and, if necessary, write that down. If, for example, you had an adverse reaction to the herb mixture, you’d want to be able to tell the folks in the emergency room what you’d taken, right? –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

Sharon,     I cannot remember all the things in the sack.  The Chinese doc was treating more than just the hot flashes.  My body was achy, sometimes I was feeling cold, and I was cranky.  I did not have much energy.  I believe the tea concoction was formulated to address several issues that would be different with each woman.  If you are researching herbs for just hot flashes, you might want to go to a Chinese doctor and ask for an explanation. Best, M.A. Sharon <beres…@home.com

wrote in message

news:l_aV5.724448$8u4.11803894@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have just found this group. I am doing research for hot flashes and I > would be very interested in what is in the sack. > Sharon > "U Tools" <medto…@earthlink.net

wrote in message

> news:w4ZU5.13248$II2.1311380@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net… > A friend who is an MD/medical school prof went through the sack and > identified the different barks and roots.  He explained.  He teaches > seminars on the integration of Eastern/Western medicine.  The Chinese have > been treating folks for a long time. > Frankenmel <franken…@aol.comnospam

wrote in message

> news:20001127213221.17358.00002795@ng-cg1.aol.com… > > >From: "U Tools" medto…@earthlink.net > > >Date: 11/27/00 6:27 PM Pacific Standard Time > > >I was having problems with hot flashes, etc., and went to a Chinese > doctor > > >who gave me some herbs to make a tea.  Within a week, no hot flashes, > more > > >energy.  I’ve been drinking the horrible tasting stuff for a couple of > > >months.  I feel like myself again. > > And you have no idea what you’re taking?? > > Sharon..*.eat your fruits and veggies and exercise daily*

Response:

Question:

I have taken phen and trazadone together (in fact I start again tomorrow) ….for me they work  very well.  The first time I used it I lost 20 pounds in a little over a month and I have kept it off….but money got scarce and I had to quit..now I am back on hoping to take off another 40 pounds. Danielle 240/230/200  <——-1/11/99 Final goal is 160 http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Dunes/1012

Response:

Hey Danielle…nice to see you…Jae

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have taken phen and trazadone together (in fact I start again tomorrow) ….for me they work  very well.  The first time I used it I lost 20 pounds in a little over a month and I have kept it off….but money got scarce and I had to quit..now I am back on hoping to take off another 40 pounds. Danielle 240/230/200  <——-1/11/99 Final goal is 160 http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Dunes/1012

Response:

t… Is it not possible to get the combo drug any place in the world now?  I really do miss it.

Not that I know of. Have you considered phen alone? Or ECA or phen and 5 HTP? J

Response:

Is it not possible to get the combo drug any place in the world now?  I really do miss it.

Response:

After you went off the medication, did you gain the weight back?thats really an important question and i would really truly like to know the answer-I am in dire need of this medication, but Im scared to gain it back-please tell me about what happened when you went off it? how did you feel mentally? did you feel sudden hunger? please let me know, thanks, Sophia

Response:

After you went off the medication, did you gain the weight back?thats really an important question and i would really truly like to know the answer-I am in dire need of this medication, but Im scared to gain it back-please tell me about what happened when you went off it? how did you feel mentally? did you feel sudden hunger? please let me know, thanks, Sophia

If you go back to your old ways, you are all but sure to gain the weight back. This applies to all weight loss methods, not just drugs. J

Response:

I would like to get phen/fen  if any one knows how please send me a e-mail to baybeee222 thank you                   (kitty)

Response:

After you went off the medication, did you gain the weight back?

Yes.  That’s completely expected.  Do people who stop their blood pressure medication find their blood pressure has increased?  Do people with hypothyroidism find that their symptoms of low thyroid return when they stop taking thyroid hormone?  It’s not a cure. thats really an important question and i would really truly like to know the answer-I am in dire need of this medication, but Im scared to gain it back-

So don’t stop it for any length of time.  (An occasional drug holiday doesn’t hurt, and may help when you’ve become tolerant to the drug.) Note that you can’t get fenfluramine (the fen in fen/phen) anymore, since fenfluramine was taken off the market in the fall of ‘97. By the way, don’t expect miracles. Though there are some people who have fantastic success (including some here in this group), most people will find that they’ll lose about 10-20% of their initial body weight, which is often enough to make a big difference in your stamina, blood pressure and cholesterol levels. please tell me about what happened when you went off it? how did you feel mentally? did you feel sudden hunger?

I didn’t feel very different.  I was hungrier, though not ravenous. However, it was enough that I gradually regained the 60# I lost over the next 18 months once I stopped the drug combination. I’ve been back on phentermine alone for the past year, and have lost 40#. — Steve Dyer

Response:

Actually, it was $13.95 for the book and all the forms.

Response:

I ordered the book you are talking about.Most–all most all did not have e-mail–fax was available on most of them—the control drugs still were not available without a rx.  I found it useless as for as ordering phentermine without a prescription.  It was just a listing of foreign drug stores—I went as far as calling some by phone still with no results—as far as I am concerned it is a waste of money

Response:

Phen-Pro may do the same, but is even illegal to prescribe together in my state (Florida).   -sb

Dr. Blythe, I also am in Florida, and on Paxil for Fibromyalgia.  Does that mean it isn’t legal to prescribe phen for me?   Thank you. Karen 216/161/118 Healthy and successful  low carb Atkins’ since 10-14-98

Response:

FYI – it is illegal to import into the U.S. any drug which is not approved for use within the U.S.  It is not illegal to import quantities of approved drugs, with a prescription, for your own use.  It would seem to me that the serotonin effect to combine with the Phentermine could be obtained – perhaps more safely – by using 5HTP, which of course has not been studied so much.  Phen-Pro may do the same, but is even illegal to prescribe together in my state (Florida).   -sb There is a website you can go to and order a kit that shows you how to order any drug from overseas and it is not illegal.  I have gotten several meds this way, and it really isn’t that expensive to do.. Hugs, Christy

– Dr. Stephen Blythe Nutrition WebSite: http://www.drblythe.com Travel Health WebSite: http://www.travelhealth.com

Response:

Your so right Jet.. i too like you lost all my weight with phen-fen in jan1997 thur june1997,,,well i weighed 187lbs! and today i weigh 145 , so not to bad because i did change my old habits:) but i cant get off these last 12 lbs or so, so i now started fastin yesterday.

Response:

There is a website you can go to and order a kit that shows you how to order any drug from overseas and it is not illegal.  I have gotten several meds this way, and it really isn’t that expensive to do.. Hugs, Christy Good lord where do you do this?

I don’t remember exactly where that sight was, but they charge you about $80.00 plus shipping for a book or some kind of kit that tells you how to obtain all manner of RX drugs.  I didnt’ want to spend $80.00 on book, so I never pursued it.  Would be interested in what anyone else found out. Karen 216/161/118 Healthy and successful  low carb Atkins’ since 10-14-98

Response:

There is a website you can go to and order a kit that shows you how to order any drug from overseas and it is not illegal.  I have gotten several meds this way, and it really isn’t that expensive to do.. Hugs, Christy

Response:

I am not Cheri but… Where are you going to get the Fen part?  If you have a reliable source I know A LOT of people who would jump on that, legal or illegal. As far as side effects go people expericence different things and most side effects diminish with use. Margo

Response:

Cheri… I am going to start this med soon.  What mood changes are you speaking of?  You can email me if you wish. Thanks in advance… Hugs, Christy

Response:

I took it for a few months before it was taken off the market. I went from 260 lbs. to 225lbs. I was very happy with the progress. After I stopped taking it I gained all the weight back after a while. I wasn’t hungry right away or anything… just slowly, unrealizing, drifted back into old eating and exercise habits.  (Or lack of I should say concerning exercise.) I’ve been trying lifestyle changes for 10 years now… I just do not have the discipline. My will isn’t enough. I have recently started Meridia and so far it works pretty well for helping to eat proper portions. The exercise is still my problem… I try. Blix

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After you went off the medication, did you gain the weight back?thats really an important question and i would really truly like to know the answer-I am in dire need of this medication, but Im scared to gain it back-please tell me about what happened when you went off it? how did you feel mentally? did you feel sudden hunger? please let me know, thanks, Sophia

Response:

I only lost about 20 pounds while on it, and did gain that back.  I was more impressed by the mood change though. cheri

Response:

When I was losing on Fen-Phen I was going to a doc that had researched extensively and treated obesity as a disease… And as Steve said, if you have diabetes would you just *stop* your meds, No.  My doc would take people off meds shortly after they got to goal weight, but as soon as they gained 10 lbs, it was back on meds for a month or two… As time went by the intervals between needing meds went from about 3-6 months to over a year. I *really* respected this Doctor and traveled 200 miles to see him,  he was one of the people that was called to supply records and test subjects for the current tests going on. He was *extremely* pissed off at how it was done, but that’s a different story…  Just for the record, he was *for* Fen-Phen, but only giving it to those who needed it (ie. obese), and completely informing his patients of the risks… Then letting the patients decide weather or not to take it. (like Docs do with all other drugs that might have bad side effects, ie Meridia, BC Pills, Viagra etc..) Anyway, hope this answers your question… — ~Susan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After you went off the medication, did you gain the weight back?thats really an important question and i would really truly like to know the answer-I am in dire need of this medication, but Im scared to gain it back-please tell me about what happened when you went off it? how did you feel mentally? did you feel sudden hunger? please let me know, thanks, Sophia

Response:

Question:

Your lymphocytes are your white blood cells. They are a bit higher than usual, which often is a sign of an infection. You have ketones in your URINE. Ketones in your blood are a different matter, they are ketoacidosis and very dangerous.   Your cholesterol is not bad at all.  The HDL is high which is good and your triglycerides are very low which is though to mean LOW cardiac risk.  The LDL is a bit high, but the Eades say that 180-220 is the ideal range, not the lower range many labs give. Give yourself a pat on the back! — Jenny *Sorry about the lack of email address but I’m up to here with spam :<

Response:

Hi all, Got my lab work back after my annual physical and for the most part I’m happy. I haven’t been able to speak with my doctor yet (will on Monday)  and I thought someone here could help me with a couple of questions. 1.    What is Lymphocytes-Abs?.   It came in at 3.60 and the normal range is 1.00-3.50. 2.   Also, I read negative for Ketones.  My sticks that day showed moderate. Same type of tests? 3.  What should I be looking at on here that would tell me about my thyroid? Here’s the rest of my results. Cholesterol 230 (normal 120-199) (I was given a low cholesterol diet, ya right!) HDL  53 (normal 35-55) LDL  162 (normal <130) Protein 6.7 (normal 6.4 -8.4) (would have that this would be higher) Glucose 89 ( normal 60-110) Triglycerides 75 (normal <200) Did not have lab work done before I started in October, but this seems pretty good, right? Thanks for any help with my questions! Dana Atkins 10/7/98 172/150/?

Response:

Personally, I’d get rid of the lipitor all together.  Supposedly, there’s an increased risk of death from all causes once your total cholesterol drops below about 160.  Why were you on lipitor anyway?  Your starting cholesterol was less than 200, which is generally the number they look at.

Been on Lipitor for a while before that; maybe my Ch was a lot higher at the time.  Docs don’t seem anxious to reduce meds once you’re on them!  What’s your support for the statement about <160 is bad?

Response:

Personally, I’d get rid of the lipitor all together.  Supposedly, there’s an increased risk of death from all causes once your total cholesterol drops below about 160.  Why were you on lipitor anyway?  Your starting cholesterol was less than 200, which is generally the number they look at. Been on Lipitor for a while before that; maybe my Ch was a lot higher at the time.  Docs don’t seem anxious to reduce meds once you’re on them!  What’s your support for the statement about <160 is bad?

While a google didn’t find support for ‘all causes’ I have found a couple of incomplete cites of studies which I’m sure somebody with amazing research skills (cue Carmen) could ferret out easily. One for heart disease: American Heart Association 41st Annual Conference on Cardiovascular Disease Epidemiology and Prevention in San Antonio, Texas (March, 2001) And one for stroke: American Heart Association’s annual stroke conference (February 1999) and one complete reference with abstract: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CRsupportgroup/message/6122 J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo) 1997 Feb;43(1):83-99 Dietary lipids and incidence of cerebral infarction in a Japanese rural community. Seino F, Date C, Nakayama T, Yoshiike N, Yokoyama T, Yamaguchi M, Tanaka H. CONCLUSION: This study suggests the possibility that the traditional Japanese diet, very low fat intake, was likely to increase the risk of stroke through the low level of serum cholesterol as an intermediary factor. hth revek

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I rarely see it mentioned here, but there are risks associated with low blood cholesterol.  As I recall from the Eades book, mortality rates look sort of like an upside down bell curve with rising blood pressure, with the top of the curve being somewhere around 200.  Why would you still be on any cholesterol meds if you are below 150, or 200 even?  Low cholesterol co-relates with stroke, depression, aggression, suicide and other things. I see this claim made everywhere. Does anyone have a reference to the presumably peer-reviewed study that came up with this? I’d like to read it. I would sure stay on a statin with a cholesterol below 150, depending on individual circumstances. A history of heart attacks, angina…just for starters. Why worry about boosting the risk of a violent death or even cancer by 30% if you can reduce the risk of a heart attack by 30%, and you have an sharply elevated risk of heart attack to start with?

Depends on whether you want to go slowly or relatively quickly. revek

Response:

I first about the elevated risk of low blood cholesterol in the Eades book, Protien Power.  I gave my copy of it away a few years ago.  They presented a graph showing mortality rates v cholesterol.  I don’t remember in particular whether there were studies backing up the claim, but in general I remember the book being pretty good about that sort of thing. I tried googling it, but you tend to get a zillion sites recommending how to eat low cholesterol foods. Duffy

Response:

I rarely see it mentioned here, but there are risks associated with low blood cholesterol.  As I recall from the Eades book, mortality rates look sort of like an upside down bell curve with rising blood pressure, with the top of the curve being somewhere around 200.  Why would you still be on any cholesterol meds if you are below 150, or 200 even?  Low cholesterol co-relates with stroke, depression, aggression, suicide and other things. Duffy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well it’s just like they said, low carb improves the cholesterol. Here are three results about a year apart.  By way of background my weight went steadily up until July 2003 when I started a reduced carb diet; throughout the period I took 20mg of Lipitor daily, but after my latest results I’m going to cut that to 10mg. August 2001                October 2002                August 2003 Weight        200                        190 175 Total Ch    184                        144 151 LDL (bad)    107                    70 66 HDL (good)    59                    55 78 Triglycerides    92                    95 33 Perhaps I should post this on one of the low fat ng’s! They’ll probably claim it’s purely the lipitor and the only thing keeping the cholesterol down considering your ‘unhealthy’ diet. revek The weight loss could explain the improvement. It’s hard to do dietary studies! The weight loss can explain the bood pressure dropping too, then again maybe not since some people still have to take cholesterol and blood pressure meds even when they’re thin.  However, if you then crow about your weight loss (thru lowcarb) as *the* way to beat cholesterol and blood pressure, they’ll turn right around and say it’s only water, as if that invalidates something. Some sorts are just stubborn and don’t want to take the blinders off. revek Some sorts don’t know that you can’t lose that much weight and have it be water. They apparently think its possible only with lowcarb.  Lowfat/lowcal they’ll believe, though. revek

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well it’s just like they said, low carb improves the cholesterol. Here are three results about a year apart.  By way of background my weight went steadily up until July 2003 when I started a reduced carb diet; throughout the period I took 20mg of Lipitor daily, but after my latest results I’m going to cut that to 10mg. August 2001                October 2002                August 2003 Weight        200                        190 175 Total Ch    184                        144 151 LDL (bad)    107                    70 66 HDL (good)    59                    55 78 Triglycerides    92                    95 33 Perhaps I should post this on one of the low fat ng’s! They’ll probably claim it’s purely the lipitor and the only thing keeping the cholesterol down considering your ‘unhealthy’ diet. revek The weight loss could explain the improvement. It’s hard to do dietary studies! The weight loss can explain the bood pressure dropping too, then again maybe not since some people still have to take cholesterol and blood pressure meds even when they’re thin.  However, if you then crow about your weight loss (thru lowcarb) as *the* way to beat cholesterol and blood pressure, they’ll turn right around and say it’s only water, as if that invalidates something. Some sorts are just stubborn and don’t want to take the blinders off. revek Some sorts don’t know that you can’t lose that much weight and have it be water.

They apparently think its possible only with lowcarb.  Lowfat/lowcal they’ll believe, though. revek

Response:

Well it’s just like they said, low carb improves the cholesterol.  Here are three results about a year apart.  By way of background my weight went steadily up until July 2003 when I started a reduced carb diet; throughout the period I took 20mg of Lipitor daily, but after my latest results I’m going to cut that to 10mg. August 2001                October 2002                August 2003 Weight        200                        190 175 Total Ch    184                        144 151 LDL (bad)    107                    70                                    66 HDL (good)    59                    55                                    78 Triglycerides    92                    95 33 Perhaps I should post this on one of the low fat ng’s!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well it’s just like they said, low carb improves the cholesterol.  Here are three results about a year apart.  By way of background my weight went steadily up until July 2003 when I started a reduced carb diet; throughout the period I took 20mg of Lipitor daily, but after my latest results I’m going to cut that to 10mg. August 2001                October 2002                August 2003 Weight        200                        190 175 Total Ch    184                        144 151 LDL (bad)    107                    70 66 HDL (good)    59                    55 78 Triglycerides    92                    95 33 Perhaps I should post this on one of the low fat ng’s!

They’ll probably claim it’s purely the lipitor and the only thing keeping the cholesterol down considering your ‘unhealthy’ diet. revek

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well it’s just like they said, low carb improves the cholesterol.  Here are three results about a year apart.  By way of background my weight went steadily up until July 2003 when I started a reduced carb diet; throughout the period I took 20mg of Lipitor daily, but after my latest results I’m going to cut that to 10mg. August 2001                October 2002                August 2003 Weight        200                        190 175 Total Ch    184                        144 151 LDL (bad)    107                    70 66 HDL (good)    59                    55 78 Triglycerides    92                    95 33 Perhaps I should post this on one of the low fat ng’s! They’ll probably claim it’s purely the lipitor and the only thing keeping the cholesterol down considering your ‘unhealthy’ diet. revek The weight loss could explain the improvement. It’s hard to do dietary studies!

The weight loss can explain the bood pressure dropping too, then again maybe not since some people still have to take cholesterol and blood pressure meds even when they’re thin.  However, if you then crow about your weight loss (thru lowcarb) as *the* way to beat cholesterol and blood pressure, they’ll turn right around and say it’s only water, as if that invalidates something. Some sorts are just stubborn and don’t want to take the blinders off. revek

Response:

They’ll probably claim it’s purely the lipitor and the only thing keeping the cholesterol down considering your ‘unhealthy’ diet. revek

LOL.  Quite likely.  "No no, Galileo, the sun goes round the earth".  (It was Galileo wasn’t it?  Or was it Copernicus?  Can never keep them straight. Must be the effects of this lousy diet).  Oh BTW I also cut my BP meds in half, but that’s probably because of the weight loss.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They’ll probably claim it’s purely the lipitor and the only thing keeping the cholesterol down considering your ‘unhealthy’ diet. revek LOL.  Quite likely.  "No no, Galileo, the sun goes round the earth".  (It was Galileo wasn’t it?  Or was it Copernicus?  Can never keep them straight. Must be the effects of this lousy diet).  Oh BTW I also cut my BP meds in half, but that’s probably because of the weight loss.

Personally, I’d get rid of the lipitor all together.  Supposedly, there’s an increased risk of death from all causes once your total cholesterol drops below about 160.  Why were you on lipitor anyway?  Your starting cholesterol was less than 200, which is generally the number they look at.   Congratulations on your improvement! — Bob M in CT

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Wooohoooo!  Way to go Brian!  I just love cold, hard, numbers.  Hard for idiots to argue with them.  Sometimes they still try though! Marion – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just got back from taking my daughter to the doctor for an ear infection… Hadn’t heard back from them about he lipid profile I had done back on 1- 6-00, so I asked the nurse about it, and she brought it to me… Also, I didn’t realize it, but I had one done about 18 months ago when I was there, so although not exactly a "before and after" comparison here are the numbers: Before: 7-24-98 (10 hour Fasting) Glucose    101 HDL                29 LDL                165 Total Chol.        282 Triglyceride       421 Blood pressure: 160/96 After: 1-6-00 (Not exactly fasting, had a (big) cup of coffee with 1/4 cup of cream, and 2 ounces of safflower oil (not in the coffee) about 45 minutes before.) Glucose    86 HDL                43 LDL                111 Total chol.        189 Triglyceride       174 (Doctor said the cream & possibly the safflower oil would affect this level which should be 40-160.) Blood pressure: 118/76 Brian bkfist.tripod.com

– Marion, 213 in December ‘98 Atkid since 1/18/99, soccer+pumpin’ iron 205/183/? BF% 41/29/20 Before you buy.

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Congratulations!  That’s great! Sassy She-Spock Boldly Going Nowhere

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just got back from taking my daughter to the doctor for an ear infection… Hadn’t heard back from them about he lipid profile I had done back on 1- 6-00, so I asked the nurse about it, and she brought it to me… Also, I didn’t realize it, but I had one done about 18 months ago when I was there, so although not exactly a "before and after" comparison here are the numbers: Before: 7-24-98 (10 hour Fasting) Glucose 101 HDL 29 LDL 165 Total Chol. 282 Triglyceride 421 Blood pressure: 160/96 After: 1-6-00 (Not exactly fasting, had a (big) cup of coffee with 1/4 cup of cream, and 2 ounces of safflower oil (not in the coffee) about 45 minutes before.) Glucose 86 HDL 43 LDL 111 Total chol. 189 Triglyceride 174 (Doctor said the cream & possibly the safflower oil would affect this level which should be 40-160.) Blood pressure: 118/76 Brian bkfist.tripod.com

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Congratulations Brian! I wish I had more before and after numbers and pictures, but I refused to allow myself to be photographed at 260 pounds, and have never been good at getting medical check-ups. However, they give you a "mini-physical" when you go to give blood, and I was pleased to see that my BP dropped from 130/76 (admittedly not too bad) to 110/60 in the past four months. — James from Brooklyn 245/224/190   5′10" (approaching the 100 kg. threshold – a "round" number that I’ll be glad to see) LC since 11/29/99 AIM: LuuCkyJaa ICQ: 58663428 AMDG

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Your numbers look excellent to me Brian! — Debbie Cusick "When I get a little money I buy books: and if any is left over I buy food and clothes. "  - Erasmus Check out the asdlc FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also, I didn’t realize it, but I had one done about 18 months ago when I was there, so although not exactly a "before and after" comparison here are the numbers:

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Just got back from taking my daughter to the doctor for an ear infection… Hadn’t heard back from them about he lipid profile I had done back on 1- 6-00, so I asked the nurse about it, and she brought it to me… Also, I didn’t realize it, but I had one done about 18 months ago when I was there, so although not exactly a "before and after" comparison here are the numbers: Before: 7-24-98 (10 hour Fasting) Glucose         101 HDL             29 LDL             165 Total Chol.     282 Triglyceride    421 Blood pressure: 160/96 After: 1-6-00 (Not exactly fasting, had a (big) cup of coffee with 1/4 cup of cream, and 2 ounces of safflower oil (not in the coffee) about 45 minutes before.) Glucose 86 HDL             43 LDL             111 Total chol.     189 Triglyceride    174 (Doctor said the cream & possibly the safflower oil would affect this level which should be 40-160.) Blood pressure: 118/76 Brian bkfist.tripod.com

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Nothing there will tell you about your thyroid.  You’d need a TSH and a T3 and a T4 reading. If you have any symptoms of low thyroid function (low body temp., weight gain, lethargy, heavy or irregular periods, hair loss, constipation, etc)., I’d urge you to get your tests done. Best, kate coe

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Kate, this report does show TSH at 0.78 (normal 0.4 – 4.2).  Nothing regarding a T3 or T4. I didn’t suspect any problems, I just thought that my slow metabolism MAY be associated with a thyroid problem.  I know better though…..Years and Years of yo-yo dieting is my problem. Thanks for your help! Dana – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Nothing there will tell you about your thyroid.  You’d need a TSH and a T3 and a T4 reading. If you have any symptoms of low thyroid function (low body temp., weight gain, lethargy, heavy or irregular periods, hair loss, constipation, etc)., I’d urge you to get your tests done. Best, kate coe

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Kate, this report does show TSH at 0.78 (normal 0.4 – 4.2).  Nothing regarding a T3 or T4. I didn’t suspect any problems, I just thought that my slow metabolism MAY be associated with a thyroid problem.  I know better though…..Years and Years of yo-yo dieting is my problem.

Dana, I’m not a medical professional, but I think it’s important for you to know that a low-normal TSH level does not rule out the possibility of hypothyroidism.  My wife, who at one time experienced obvious symptoms of hypothyroidism (e.g., weight gain, constipation, dry skin, coldness in extremities, etc.), consistently tested in the low-normal range and was just as consistently told by her doctor that everything was OK.  After a couple of years of frustration, she insisted on seeing an endocrinologist, and, after testing for TSH, T3, and T4 (and one other which I forget), the endo determined that she was indeed hypothyroid and promptly put her on medication (Synthroid).  Of course, she had to adopt an LC WOL to lose her hypo-induced weight, but IMO (and hers) this WOL is awesome, so she’s pretty happy with how it all turned out. [I'm controlling my desire to wax estatic about how this WOL has completely cured me of the insanity known as hypoglycemia.] If you yourself are experiencing symptoms of hypothyroidism, I would suggest that you at the very least check out the alt.support.thyroid newsgroup. You’ll find many a horror tale of misleading tests results… Take care, Bob Kennedy 192(24% BF)/175(16% BF)/175(10% BF) PPing and proud of it!  :-)

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Question:

Hi!   I’m using wild yam cream rather than progesterone cream (where the yam or soy is used by a lab to create the progesterone and then the lab progesterone put in a cream base).   I’m getting just fine results and I can’t find the ProGest in local stores.   Maybe I’ll order it someday. Maybe. But I find the yam cream has identical results to those described by the ProGest users so… Anyway – yes!  Dr. Lee talks about rubbing the cream on the achy places.  It works wonderfully.  According to Lee, back in the ’50’s progesterone injections were being used for joint pains due to arthritism, rheumatism and the like.  However the shots are painful, I *hear*.   Many brands of wild yam cream are available in health food stores everywhere.  My sister and I are using two different brands – a question of taste re the cream and various scents – and are having very similar results ("I’m *me* again!" – or at least a lot closer!). Good luck with your search.  I’m sure San Antonio health food stores must have it.   Ever try across the border just to see if there are price breaks? Wonder if you can get the progesterone levels of creams that require prescriptions over the counter there.  Apparently it’s a matter of proportion – over a certain amount of progesterone per certain amount of cream defines whether the cream needs a prescription or not. Love to hear what you find!!  Hope NAFTA hasn’t messed up the Mexican pharmacias. dn yhunt wrote:

Della, when you say "over the counter" are you simply referring to the mail order pharmacies or is there a store that sells it.  I’m asking because I have had a terrible time lately with my joints and legs.  If I could find it "on the shelf" at a store somewhere here in San Antonio I would be there right away to get it.  I had been wondering if a transdermal application of the progesterone cream would help with this & was glad to see someone actually state this.  Thanks. yhunt

I had written: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Wild yam cream or progesterone cream really help those aching joints big time.  Turns out progesterone can be converted to our own natural cortisones.  It’s believed by many that the aching that comes with peri and meno is due to a shortage of progesterone. Since the creams are over the counter you might as well try them.  No doctor *ever* even mentioned them but I’ve been feeling better than I have in years.

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Wonder if you can get the progesterone levels of creams that require prescriptions over the counter there.  Apparently it’s a matter of proportion – over a certain amount of progesterone per certain amount of cream defines whether the cream needs a prescription or not.

Exactly.  The amount of progesterone in the cream is what is important. Sometimes you pay a lot of $$ for not enough……Some of the books mentioned previously have lists of which products seem to have adequate levels…Listening to Your Hormones, Dr. Lee’s book, and Screaming to be Heard. Pat Sonnenstuhl, CNM,ARNP,RH South Sound Women’s Center: 2 CNMs and 3 OB/GYNs Olympia, WA cnm…@aol.com HTTP://home.aol.com/CNMPAT August 3, 1996 9:45 am

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RANGE OF PROGESTERONE CONTENT OF BODY CREAMS AND OILS I. Creams/Oils Containing 2000 to 3000 mg Progesterone per Ounce Progest-E Complex  Ray Peat                    Eugene, OR II. Creams/Oils Containing More than 400 mg Progesterone per Ounce (800 mg per two-ounce jar or tube) Bio Balance        Elan Vitale                Scottsdale, AZ Happy PMS          HM Enterprises, Inc.       Norcross, CA NatraGest          Broadmore Labs, Inc.       Ventura, CA PhytoGest          Karuna Corporation         Novato, CA Pro-Ale            HealthWatchers Systems     Scottsdale, AZ Pro-Gest           Professional & Technical   Portland, OR                    Services, Inc. III. Creams/Oils Containing 2 to 15 mg Progesterone per Ounce Life Changes       MW Labs                    Atlanta, GA Endocreme          Wuliton Labs               Palmyra, MO Pro-Dermex         Gero Vita International    Reno, NV IV. Creams Containing Less than 2 mg Progesterone per One Ounce Born Again         Phytopharmica               Green Bay, WI Femarone           Wise Essen. Inc.            Minneapolis, MN Menopause Form     PMS Relief, Inc.            Aubum, CA Nutri-Gest         NutriSupplies               West Palm                                                     Beach, FL PMS Formula        PMS Relief, Inc.            Auburn, CA Progestone-HP      Dixie Health, Inc.          Atlanta, GA Progerone          Nature’s Nutrition, Inc.    Vero Beach, FL Wild Yam Cream     Alvin Last, Inc.            Yonkers, NY Yamcon             Phillips Nutritionals       Laguna Hills, CA An independent laboratory assay prepared by Aeron Lifecycles, San Le- andro, CA, 7/31/95. Signs and Symptoms of Estrogen Dominance in a            Premenopausal Woman

Question:

call me "GLITCH") writes: Does anyone know the correlation between a thyroid problem and one’s gaining excessive weight? Also does a thyroid problem have a homeopathic treatment with herbs? Are there any other symptoms of thyroid problems such as sleeplessness, or headaches or mood swings? Thanks, Dan in Maryland

Hypothyroidism (low thydroid) can lead to weight gain.  So can many other things.  Thydroid hormone basically maintains the bodies metabolism.  Thus symptoms of low thyroid are: slow heart rate; exercise intolerance; cold intolerance; hair thining and falling out; lethargy; weight gain; dry skin; sleeping more; constipation. etc.  Symptoms of hyperthyroidism are essentially the opposite: high heart rate; diarrhea; heat intolerance; sleeplessness etc.  Fatigue can be a part of either since the body can get over stimulated by the thyroid. Are there homeopathic treatments?  I would assume so. Are the effective???  I have no idea.  Hypothyroidism is easily and inexpensively treatable.  The only real way to treat primary (problem with the thyriod, not the part of the brain that controlls it) hyperthyroidism is with thyroid hormone.  Hyperthyroidism is a bit more complicated. Headaches and mood swings are not a part of thyroid problems. M Ryan MD

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Does anyone know the correlation between a thyroid problem and one’s gaining excessive weight? Also does a thyroid problem have a homeopathic treatment with herbs? Are there any other symptoms of thyroid problems such as sleeplessness, or headaches or mood swings? Thanks, Dan in Maryland

Response:

Hypothyroidism (low thydroid) can lead to weight gain.  So can many other things.  Thydroid hormone basically maintains the bodies metabolism.  Thus symptoms of low thyroid are: slow heart rate; exercise intolerance; cold intolerance; hair thining and falling out; lethargy; weight gain; dry skin; sleeping more; constipation. etc.  Symptoms of hyperthyroidism are essentially the opposite: high heart rate; diarrhea; heat intolerance; sleeplessness etc.  Fatigue can be a part of either since the body can get over stimulated by the thyroid.

<<snip Headaches and mood swings are not a part of thyroid problems. M Ryan MD

Low thyroid can certainly contribute to weight gain, but is easily treatable. I never had problems with headaches that were related to the thyroid problems or the artificial thyroid stuff I took (as far as I know!) but would disagree a bit with the mood swing part.  I had a friend diagnosed with low thyroid recently, and many of the problems she had been having, including some mental health issues, cleared up as soon as she started the artificial thyroid, in spite of the fact that the doctors insisted that there was no relationship.  I suspect that being very tired all the time can contribute to mood swings or depression if you are already prone to those problems.  Having thyroid problems can mess up other hormones in your body, too,  which (especially for women) can contribute to mental health issues.  And when I had to stop taking the synthroid for a while, I sank into a rather nasty depression.  I found out afterwards that our family doctor had told my mother that that was a fairly common experience. For me, the problems cleared up when I finished puberty, though I still have a full range of tests done every couple of years just to make sure. Marie Houck

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Does anyone know the correlation between a thyroid problem and one’s gaining excessive weight?

Low thyroid gland function can cause a weight gain of about 15 pounds only. Weight excesses in the range of morbid obesity (100% of ideal body weight), are almost never due to thyroid problems alone. Also does a thyroid problem have a homeopathic treatment with herbs?

Probably. However, it is doubtful that any such treatment would be effective. Are there any other symptoms of thyroid problems such as sleeplessness, or headaches or mood swings?

There are many symptoms of thyroid disease, and few of them are specific for it. It may be helpful to post your specific problems and see what ideas the various respondents come up with. Ed Ed Uthman, MD Pathologist                        corpore servit." Houston/Richmond, Texas, USA                  -Seneca

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(Marie Houck) writes: Hypothyroidism (low thydroid) can lead to weight gain.  So can many other things.  Thydroid hormone basically maintains the bodies metabolism.  Thus symptoms of low thyroid are: slow heart rate; exercise intolerance; cold intolerance; hair thining and falling out; lethargy; weight gain; dry skin; sleeping more; constipation. etc.  Symptoms of hyperthyroidism are essentially the opposite: high heart rate; diarrhea; heat intolerance; sleeplessness etc.  Fatigue can be a part of either since the body can get over stimulated by the thyroid. <<snip Headaches and mood swings are not a part of thyroid problems. M Ryan MD Low thyroid can certainly contribute to weight gain, but is easily treatable. I never had problems with headaches that were related to the thyroid problems or the artificial thyroid stuff I took (as far as I know!) but would disagree a bit with the mood swing part.  I had a friend diagnosed with low thyroid recently, and many of the problems she had been having, including some mental health issues, cleared up as soon as she started the artificial thyroid, in spite of the fact that the doctors insisted that there was no relationship.  I suspect that being very tired all the time can contribute to mood swings or depression if you are already prone to those problems.  Having thyroid problems can mess up other hormones in your body, too,  which (especially for women) can contribute to mental health issues.  And when I had to stop taking the synthroid for a while, I sank into a rather nasty depression.  I found out afterwards that our family doctor had told my mother that that was a fairly common experience. For me, the problems cleared up when I finished puberty, though I still have a full range of tests done every couple of years just to make sure. Marie Houck

As a "thyroid free" individual, I too agree that thyroid malfunction symptoms can easily cause mood changes in reaction to the symptoms. If Dr. Ryan meant that there are no HORMONAL reasons for mood swings, such *may* be true, but swings attributed directly to the symptoms of either of the thyroidisms seem quite apparent. Since replacement of the missing thyroid hormones is limited (usually) to the T-4,T-3 elements, competent experimentation on the mood influences of the missing thyroid hormones would be interesting to review. I have never seen such. Does calcitonin affect more than simply the remediation of slow calcium??? Does this affect psychological makeup? Alone or in concert? Etc. Etc. Ralph Burr

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Sometimes you do and sometimes you don’t. I didn’t gain weight until I had thyroid. My body couldn’t have sustained a weight gain before that. But since in some cases people overeat because eating can stimulate the production of thyroid. And they can overeat because they are having other problems with either their hormones or neurotransmitter regulation. I don’t believe in homeopathy so don’t know if there is a treatment with herbs. You can get sleeplessness or headaches or moodswings with thyroid problems. But you can get them with a lot else. I’d take a bloodtest for thyroid and thyroid stimulating hormone. And then I’d evaluate my resting metabolic rate (temperature). And other physical signs. And then I’d decide whether or not to take thyroid from that. Some thyroid deficiencies are inate, some are caused by exposure to radioactive iodine, some are caused by immune problems, and some are actually caused by an inability to use iodine in the diet. There are probably other causes. Anyway, I’m hypothyroid but have take thyroid for twenty-three years. My weight is independent of thyroid. Jackie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Does anyone know the correlation between a thyroid problem and one’s gaining excessive weight? Also does a thyroid problem have a homeopathic treatment with herbs? Are there any other symptoms of thyroid problems such as sleeplessness, or headaches or mood swings? Thanks, Dan in Maryland

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Question:

Also, any sources for red clover (tea)?  I can’t seem to find this in any store.

Get your Red CLover tea in any health food store.  If you don’t have one around, see if there is a food co-op buying group in your area (Like Mountain Peoples Co-op in the Northwest & west, or Blooming prairies in the midwest USA)  find someone in the coop and they can order the tea for you. best wishes MW

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Hello, all.  It has been recommended to me by a certified nutritionist that glandular tissue extracts will help to reduce some symptoms of low thyroid function.  Anyone out there ever try them — worth the money?   (They aren’t too expensive but about $30 for 90 day supply). Also, any sources for red clover (tea)?  I can’t seem to find this in any store. Whey powder — how is this prepared?  Is it beneficial? Thoughts appreciated!

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