Question:
[snip] Karen: My vet explained that if the dog was hypothyroid, even if she was fed less food, she would not loose weight.
Not necessarily. I had a Bullmastiff that was severly hypothyroid, but it never affected his weight. In fact, when I first suggested a thyroid test to my vet (we were trying to find the source of a skin allergy), he was very skeptical because the dog had none of the symptoms associated with hypothyroidism (i.e., lethargy, weight gain). Melissa (Jax’s Mom)
Response:
Karen: The whole panel was done and all results were within normal range. My vet said that besides her weight, there was no indication that she was hypothyroid. I have put her on a strict diet; no more free-feeding, and if she looses weight, it’s indication that she is not hypothyroid. I’m hoping we’ll see better results when she breeds this time. Thanks Lyn
Your veterinarian is mistaken on two counts: your dog has two *possible* symptoms of hypothyroidism, just from what you originally posted: weight problem & fertility problem. Also, according to Dr. Jean Dodds, Collies are predisposed to Thyroid problems. There could be other symptoms as well (at least 50 are documented and no dog has them all), and you did state that your dog is "low normal." The second thing your vet is mistaken about is that hypothyroid dogs on restricted diets won’t lose weight, as addressed by the respondant below. If your vet was right, I could save a lot of money on food by not feeding half the dogs in my household <g; unfortunately, they would die of starvation just like the "normal" ones. Am I reading right, or am I just tired? If you restrict free feeding she *should* lose weight. So why ,if she loses weight, is it an indicationof a good thryoid, not the fact she might be losing weight naturally? Terri
Also, there is some confusion in some of these posts here about what I posted, and what other respondants have posted. As I said, I wouldn’t rule thyroid problems out based on low values within the "normal" range, particularly not on a two year old dog. Chow, Karen Privitello Chow Welfare League of NPD, Inc.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a two year old tri female coming into season soon. She was bred on her second season, a year ago, and the breeding did not take. I skipped the late summer hear, because I didn’t want winter puppies, and she is due again in January. The owner of the stud I am using suggested a thyroid test; she is heavy for the breed, and he felt perhaps this would contribute to her ‘missing’ the last time. Any suggestions? Her tests came out low-normal, so thyroid isn’t the problem. Looking for thoughts on preparing for this breeding to insure better luck. Hi Lyn, Was the vet that read the Thyroid panel experienced with Collies in particular? There is something about Collies and thyroid, which unfortunately I can’t remember, but results should be examined by a vet with breed-specific experience. The generalized scale is not always correct in identifying thyroid dysfunction in Collies, particularly at the ends of the scale. I *know* the Collie mailing list people would have more information on this; I can’t easily import the information into this message but will email you subscription instructions. We don’t, generally speaking, bite <grin. Even with a normal thyroid, simple overweight can be a fertility problem. And she should be in the best shape possible for when she actually whelps, too. Get her on diet and into some excercise, and see if that doesn’t help. Have you been in contact with her breeder about this? Ideally her breeder should be helping you select the stud, advising you what problems and strengths to be aware of in her line, and helping you with the technical problems of "getting it right the 1st time". She should also be helping you plan where the puppies will be placed when they’re ready to leave home, and oh, all kinds of things. I don’t know what I’d do without my mentor, who is not technically my pup’s breeder but owns her sire and whelped and raised the litter. When I thought Sprite was coming into heat (she wasn’t: puppy vaginitis) I was calling her up every few days and saying, okay, we’ve got [graphic description here], but no discharge! Is she under house arrest yet? Vets are helpful too but they don’t have your dog’s siblings to compare to (in my case, that none of her sisters had been in heat yet; in your case, it would be important to know if any of your dog’s relatives had been diagnosed with thyroid problems, or anything else you might want to breed away from). If she does have a thyroid problem, even a minor one, you will want to think over the breeding idea. We have enough Collies with hypothyroidism that we shouldn’t be making more without good reasons. On the other hand, there are worse things than hypothyroid, so it would help to have a complete picture of the dog. I will avoid the question of should you be breeding at all since I am hoping you will join us on the Collie list, where the pros and cons can be discussed with people with better breed-specific experience than I have (and without flaming). I have noticed that many Collie people don’t check hips and elbows ("OFA certification") and perhaps because of this, it is more common to see Collies with younger dams than in some other breeds. But there is some incidence of dysplasia in the breed, and IMO now is the time to be on the lookout and keep it from becoming a major problem. Again, this is something that you will find very discussable on the Collie list. — Elizabeth B. Naime * Email may be forwarded and/or posted CUR 70 / FUR 212 * * Standard Disclaimers Apply*
Thanks for such a generous response to my question. My vet does know the breed; I have bred collies for about 15 years and he’s learned along with me. I have not heard of thyroid problems in collies more then other breeds. Any info you can provide would be helpful. The bitch I have is my own line, and there has been no history of thyroid in the four I’ve had behind her. I am now beginning to believe that she’s just overweight! I have doubled exercise and reduced her feed. She is loosing weight. If thyroid was a problem, she wouldn’t. She’s due in January-mid-month. I’ve spoken to the owner of the stud, and he was the one who suggested the thyroid, since this is a return breeding after one miss. I hope with the weight loss, we will have better luck. E mail me information on how to subscribe to collie list you mentioned. I am new to computers and to news groups, so have no idea! Thanks, Lyn
Response:
I have a two year old tri female coming into season soon. She was bred on her second season, a year ago, and the breeding did not take. I skipped the late summer hear, because I didn’t want winter puppies, and she is due again in January. The owner of the stud I am using suggested a thyroid test; she is heavy for the breed, and he felt perhaps this would contribute to her ‘missing’ the last time. Any suggestions? Her tests came out low-normal, so thyroid isn’t the problem. Looking for thoughts on preparing for this breeding to insure better luck.
Hi Lyn, Was the vet that read the Thyroid panel experienced with Collies in particular? There is something about Collies and thyroid, which unfortunately I can’t remember, but results should be examined by a vet with breed-specific experience. The generalized scale is not always correct in identifying thyroid dysfunction in Collies, particularly at the ends of the scale. I *know* the Collie mailing list people would have more information on this; I can’t easily import the information into this message but will email you subscription instructions. We don’t, generally speaking, bite <grin. Even with a normal thyroid, simple overweight can be a fertility problem. And she should be in the best shape possible for when she actually whelps, too. Get her on diet and into some excercise, and see if that doesn’t help. Have you been in contact with her breeder about this? Ideally her breeder should be helping you select the stud, advising you what problems and strengths to be aware of in her line, and helping you with the technical problems of "getting it right the 1st time". She should also be helping you plan where the puppies will be placed when they’re ready to leave home, and oh, all kinds of things. I don’t know what I’d do without my mentor, who is not technically my pup’s breeder but owns her sire and whelped and raised the litter. When I thought Sprite was coming into heat (she wasn’t: puppy vaginitis) I was calling her up every few days and saying, okay, we’ve got [graphic description here], but no discharge! Is she under house arrest yet? Vets are helpful too but they don’t have your dog’s siblings to compare to (in my case, that none of her sisters had been in heat yet; in your case, it would be important to know if any of your dog’s relatives had been diagnosed with thyroid problems, or anything else you might want to breed away from). If she does have a thyroid problem, even a minor one, you will want to think over the breeding idea. We have enough Collies with hypothyroidism that we shouldn’t be making more without good reasons. On the other hand, there are worse things than hypothyroid, so it would help to have a complete picture of the dog. I will avoid the question of should you be breeding at all since I am hoping you will join us on the Collie list, where the pros and cons can be discussed with people with better breed-specific experience than I have (and without flaming). I have noticed that many Collie people don’t check hips and elbows ("OFA certification") and perhaps because of this, it is more common to see Collies with younger dams than in some other breeds. But there is some incidence of dysplasia in the breed, and IMO now is the time to be on the lookout and keep it from becoming a major problem. Again, this is something that you will find very discussable on the Collie list. — Elizabeth B. Naime * Email may be forwarded and/or posted CUR 70 / FUR 212 * * Standard Disclaimers Apply*
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a two year old tri female coming into season soon. She was bred on her second season, a year ago, and the breeding did not take. I skipped the late summer hear, because I didn’t want winter puppies, and she is due again in January. The owner of the stud I am using suggested a thyroid test; she is heavy for the breed, and he felt perhaps this would contribute to her ‘missing’ the last time. Any suggestions? Her tests came out low-normal, so thyroid isn’t the problem. Looking for thoughts on preparing for this breeding to insure better luck. Thanks, Lyn Low normal doesn’t mean that your dog doesn’t have a thyroid problem. Since the dog wasn’t tested until someone noticed a few symptoms that are associated with hypothyroidism, you don’t really know what is "normal" for this particular dog. Was it a T4 test or was a full panel done? A full panel gives a much better indication as to whether there is a thyroid problem than a simple T4 test. I am not suggesting that your dog does have a thyroid problem, just that if she were my dog, I wouldn’t rule it out based on a "low normal" result. IMHO, more work needs to be done to determine as well as possible what are normal ranges for different breeds of dogs. Chows that test "low normal" often have a myriad of symptoms which start to disappear on a 30 day trial regimen of medication indicating that hypothyroidism was at least part of the problem. If there is no improvement, the medication is discontinued. What does your veterinarian think? Chow, Karen Privitello Chow Welfare League of NPD, Inc. Karen: The whole panel was done and all results were within normal range. My vet said that besides her weight, there was no indication that she was hypothyroid. I have put her on a strict diet; no more free-feeding, and if she looses weight, it’s indication that she is not hypothyroid. I’m hoping we’ll see better results when she breeds this time. Thanks Lyn Am I reading right, or am I just tired? If you restrict free feeding she *should* lose weight. So why ,if she loses weight, is it an indicationof a good thryoid, not the fact she might be losing weight naturally? Karen: My vet explained that if the dog was hypothyroid, even if she was fed less food, she would not loose weight. A normal thyroid AND less fool equals weight loss, I guess. At lease that’s my understanding of what he said. With an underactive thyroid, even though there is less feed, the dog will maintain weight. Just when I thought I was going to get through a season without major vet. problems, my oldest collie re-developed a terrible ear infection, and we are now using gentocin and antirobe antibiotic. The poor thing has lost her balance due to this, and has a terrible time with stairs. At 11+ years old, it’s hard for her. Anyway. So much for Vets! Lyn
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a two year old tri female coming into season soon. She was bred on her second season, a year ago, and the breeding did not take. I skipped the late summer hear, because I didn’t want winter puppies, and she is due again in January. The owner of the stud I am using suggested a thyroid test; she is heavy for the breed, and he felt perhaps this would contribute to her ‘missing’ the last time. Any suggestions? Her tests came out low-normal, so thyroid isn’t the problem. Looking for thoughts on preparing for this breeding to insure better luck. Thanks, Lyn Low normal doesn’t mean that your dog doesn’t have a thyroid problem. Since the dog wasn’t tested until someone noticed a few symptoms that are associated with hypothyroidism, you don’t really know what is "normal" for this particular dog. Was it a T4 test or was a full panel done? A full panel gives a much better indication as to whether there is a thyroid problem than a simple T4 test. I am not suggesting that your dog does have a thyroid problem, just that if she were my dog, I wouldn’t rule it out based on a "low normal" result. IMHO, more work needs to be done to determine as well as possible what are normal ranges for different breeds of dogs. Chows that test "low normal" often have a myriad of symptoms which start to disappear on a 30 day trial regimen of medication indicating that hypothyroidism was at least part of the problem. If there is no improvement, the medication is discontinued. What does your veterinarian think? Chow, Karen Privitello Chow Welfare League of NPD, Inc. Karen: The whole panel was done and all results were within normal range. My vet said that besides her weight, there was no indication that she was hypothyroid. I have put her on a strict diet; no more free-feeding, and if she looses weight, it’s indication that she is not hypothyroid. I’m hoping we’ll see better results when she breeds this time. Thanks Lyn
Am I reading right, or am I just tired? If you restrict free feeding she *should* lose weight. So why ,if she loses weight, is it an indicationof a good thryoid, not the fact she might be losing weight naturally? Terri
Response:
I have a two year old tri female coming into season soon. She was bred on her second season, a year ago, and the breeding did not take. I skipped the late summer hear, because I didn’t want winter puppies, and she is due again in January. The owner of the stud I am using suggested a thyroid test; she is heavy for the breed, and he felt perhaps this would contribute to her ‘missing’ the last time. Any suggestions? Her tests came out low-normal, so thyroid isn’t the problem. Looking for thoughts on preparing for this breeding to insure better luck. Thanks, Lyn
Lyn, one of the reasons she may not have taken on the first breeding was she may have been immature– if she is two now, and you tried last year– she was only a year old. I know it is possible to "breed dogs" before 2 years of age, but with large breeds like your collie, you really should wait. Although fertility problems and wt gain are symptoms of thyroid problems– there are other more tell-tail symptomes, like coat and skin appearance, lethergy… Also to be totaly fair to her, she should be in her best shape. Motherhood places a great strain on the bitch. Starting overweight is not a good idea. You really should skip this year, get her wt down, get her in optimum shape- nutrition, musceltone etc. In this time, if you have not allready had her hips x-rayed you should do so. Also, have her eyes checked (a big problem in collies) Cathy L
Response:
I didn’t see the original post, so am quoting a quote here…. I have a two year old tri female coming into season soon. She was bred on her second season, a year ago, and the breeding did not take. I skipped the late summer heat, because I didn’t want winter puppies, and she is due again in January. The owner of the stud I am using suggested a thyroid test; she is heavy for the breed, and he felt perhaps this would contribute to her ‘missing’ the last time. Any suggestions? Her tests came out low-normal, so thyroid isn’t the problem. Looking for thoughts on preparing for this breeding to insure better luck. Thanks, Lyn
This may not be the full post, but if your bitch is just two now, why were you trying to breed her a year ago? She would have been much too young to have an OFA rating and collies are large enough to need those to prove breeding worth. I would also, from personal experience, question the thyroid. A low normal reading from a bitch that has a history of infertility and symptoms of weight problems is asking for problems in your pups – believe me you do *not* want a line of low thyroid collies. Low thyroid causes a large number of life threatening health problems. If you must breed a marginal thyroid, be very careful that the stud is high normal and has not thrown thyroid problems. It may not be strictly inherited, but the tendency is definitely inherited. I consider thyroid problems secondary only to crippling/major health problems as a breeding priority for improving health. I would recommend that you rethink your breeding of this bitch. Is she a Champion? Does she have something special or important to offer her breed? Have you done all of the health tests (at least hips, eyes and recheck the thyroid – it gets worse over time) necessary to show that she will not pass on serious collie health problems? There are already too many poorly bred dogs out there to think that it will be a good idea to add to them because you think your dog is special. Everybody thinks their dog is special! That does not make the dogs all good breeding prospects! And is the stud even better? Please consider your bitches health as well. Breeding her involves serious risk to her life, much more than getting her spayed. Do you really want to take this risk? If you are only wanting to breed her to make some money back on her pups – shame on you! If not, consider the above carefully before making your decision. Carol and the Carwyn Silky Terriers
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a two year old tri female coming into season soon. She was bred on her second season, a year ago, and the breeding did not take. I skipped the late summer hear, because I didn’t want winter puppies, and she is due again in January. The owner of the stud I am using suggested a thyroid test; she is heavy for the breed, and he felt perhaps this would contribute to her ‘missing’ the last time. Any suggestions? Her tests came out low-normal, so thyroid isn’t the problem. Looking for thoughts on preparing for this breeding to insure better luck. Thanks, Lyn Low normal doesn’t mean that your dog doesn’t have a thyroid problem. Since the dog wasn’t tested until someone noticed a few symptoms that are associated with hypothyroidism, you don’t really know what is "normal" for this particular dog. Was it a T4 test or was a full panel done? A full panel gives a much better indication as to whether there is a thyroid problem than a simple T4 test. I am not suggesting that your dog does have a thyroid problem, just that if she were my dog, I wouldn’t rule it out based on a "low normal" result. IMHO, more work needs to be done to determine as well as possible what are normal ranges for different breeds of dogs. Chows that test "low normal" often have a myriad of symptoms which start to disappear on a 30 day trial regimen of medication indicating that hypothyroidism was at least part of the problem. If there is no improvement, the medication is discontinued. What does your veterinarian think? Chow, Karen Privitello Chow Welfare League of NPD, Inc.
Karen: The whole panel was done and all results were within normal range. My vet said that besides her weight, there was no indication that she was hypothyroid. I have put her on a strict diet; no more free-feeding, and if she looses weight, it’s indication that she is not hypothyroid. I’m hoping we’ll see better results when she breeds this time. Thanks Lyn
Response:
I have a two year old tri female coming into season soon. She was bred on her second season, a year ago, and the breeding did not take. I skipped the late summer hear, because I didn’t want winter puppies, and she is due again in January. The owner of the stud I am using suggested a thyroid test; she is heavy for the breed, and he felt perhaps this would contribute to her ‘missing’ the last time. Any suggestions? Her tests came out low-normal, so thyroid isn’t the problem. Looking for thoughts on preparing for this breeding to insure better luck. Thanks, Lyn
Low normal doesn’t mean that your dog doesn’t have a thyroid problem. Since the dog wasn’t tested until someone noticed a few symptoms that are associated with hypothyroidism, you don’t really know what is "normal" for this particular dog. Was it a T4 test or was a full panel done? A full panel gives a much better indication as to whether there is a thyroid problem than a simple T4 test. I am not suggesting that your dog does have a thyroid problem, just that if she were my dog, I wouldn’t rule it out based on a "low normal" result. IMHO, more work needs to be done to determine as well as possible what are normal ranges for different breeds of dogs. Chows that test "low normal" often have a myriad of symptoms which start to disappear on a 30 day trial regimen of medication indicating that hypothyroidism was at least part of the problem. If there is no improvement, the medication is discontinued. What does your veterinarian think? Chow, Karen Privitello Chow Welfare League of NPD, Inc.
Response:
I have a two year old tri female coming into season soon. She was bred on her second season, a year ago, and the breeding did not take. I skipped the late summer heat, because I didn’t want winter puppies, and she is due again in January. The owner of the stud I am using suggested a thyroid test; she is heavy for the breed, and he felt perhaps this would contribute to her ‘missing’ the last time. Any suggestions? Her tests came out low-normal, so thyroid isn’t the problem. Looking for thoughts on preparing for this breeding to insure better luck. Thanks, Lyn
Response:
I have a two year old tri female coming into season soon. She was bred on her second season, a year ago, and the breeding did not take. I skipped the late summer heat, because I didn’t want winter puppies, and she is due again in January. The owner of the stud I am using suggested a thyroid test; she is heavy for the breed, and he felt perhaps this would contribute to her ‘missing’ the last time. Any suggestions? Her tests came out low-normal, so thyroid isn’t the problem. Looking for thoughts on preparing for this breeding to insure better luck. Thanks, Lyn
– Have you checked into the various ovulation timing tests that are available? Many cases of missed breeding are simply due to us humans misjudging the timing. If you are not able to send the bitch to the stud early, or if the stud owner believes in only a couple of breedings it can be very easy to mistime them. Also some bitches will have abnormal heat cycles which make timing by oldfashioned methods difficult. There are several types of ovulatiion timing tests available now but I believe all of them require you to make several test in a row usually about 48 hours apart. The simplest of these is probably the vaginal smear in which the vet looks for changes in the formation of the cells in the vaginal lining. Then there are others that are supposed to be more reliable. Discuss this with both your vet and the stud owners. I am assuming that the stud is proven (that is he has produced puppies before). Whenever a bitch bred to my stud has missed I ask the owners to consider doing the timing tests for the next try. If they chose not to I cannot guarantee puppies. If my male were not proven I would have his semen level checked by the vet to be sure that he is a viable stud. Good luck. Dana Landry Graffeo and the Rihannsu Poodles Raven (nine going on two) Corey (Why won’t the moon fall?) Desi (Huh, what?), Styx (Anorexic) Ginny (What do you mean I’m a dog?) Tassie (Tasmanian Devil) Glory (Lump) Galaxy (Looking for a home) Lady (Border Collie couch potato)
Response:
I have a two year old tri female coming into season soon. She was bred on her second season, a year ago, and the breeding did not take. I skipped the late summer hear, because I didn’t want winter puppies, and she is due again in January. The owner of the stud I am using suggested a thyroid test; she is heavy for the breed, and he felt perhaps this would contribute to her ‘missing’ the last time. Any suggestions? Her tests came out low-normal, so thyroid isn’t the problem. Looking for thoughts on preparing for this breeding to insure better luck. Thanks, Lyn
Response:
"Most People are Heavy from What they Eat Before, After and In Between Meals Than From the Actual Meals Themselves." —- Thin Tastes Better by Dr. Stephen P. Gullo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have now been with the group 3 weeks. I have faithfully been good about what I put into my mouth and I have been drinking my water. I weighed myself today after two weeks (I was scared to look) and depression set in. I have not lost one damn pound??? Why would this be happening?? I tried calling a doctor to have my thyroid checked and my metabolism and the wonderful lady that answered the phone was nice enough to laugh her fool head off and tell me that a weight problem has nothing to do with thyroid. Can anyone give me advise on what type of doctor I should be seeing?? Or why no weight loss?? 
Categories: Symptoms Of Thyroid Problems | 
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