Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks Nancy for your helpful information. I had wondered how good the basic thyroid blood test actually is at confirming such problems. I have been through a host of health issues in recent months due to some heart and blood pressure problems combined with some negative effects of the Effexor I *was* on. I am still waiting for results on the most recent tests I had at the cardiology clinic after which I may have yet more med changes. Once I get past all this I will see how I am doing and if necessary I will ask for more thorough testing on my thyroid. It sounds like you really went through a lot of problems with your thyroid in addition to the other health issues you have to deal with. I admire your ability to stand up to all this and come out a winner which you show clearly that you have done! One thing I have learned throughout some of the health issues I have – you *have* to learn to be ultimately responsible for your own health. Yes, we must have our doctors but we also must research our individual conditions and not be afraid to ask or if necessary demand certain tests or treatments. Bonnie
Thanks Bonnie! I’m not sure how I did it! LOL I was very angry for a long time, after I had to stop working. I think that is why I fought so hard. Besides, when you can’t eat and you have a lump you can see, you keep fighting until you get some proper help. I’ll never forget the people along the way who tried to ignore me–or could care less that I had any issues. They will be on my "black list" for a very long time. <g I also will never forget the wonderful people who took me seriously and just rolled their eyes when I told them my story of how I got to them. My endo is one–he is the BEST! 
Hugs, Nancy administrator/creator/moderator alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info (moderated) alt.support.depression.manic.moderated to email me from news groups, just remove the Z.
Response:
I recommended "cold pressed flax seed oil" which is liquid and MUST be kept refrigerated. I do not eat breakfast and it also helps settle my stomach in the morning. You can get flax seed oil in many forms, but the cold pressed form is the most potent, thus you need less of it. You should be able to find it down the health food isle at the grocery store, or at any health food
store. Thanks. I will look for it. If it helps–tell you doctor then you and he/she can decide how to proceed. Medications are a very individual thing. Do NOT forget to get adequate b vitamins. 200 mg or mcg of all of them. I can recommend a company and a product which I have not found a good replacement for. Although I heard that www.vitaminshoppe.com carries a close knock off. I’ve never checked it out.
I have tried to take additional B vitamins but I am so bad about remembering to keep up with vitamins. It’s crazy because I hardly ever forget my prescription meds. I guess I just need to form some better habits in this respect. For me I have to take vitamins with dinner because they tend to upset my stomach in the mornings. If you start lithium. You should start on a low dose and get your blood levels, creatine and liver checked at least every 3 months. That will hopefully prevent any long term side effects. Although it won’t prevent the potential for thyroid problems long down the road. BTW, my thyroid problems are not from lithium. They are hereditary. HTH, Nancy
I won’t see my pdoc for another month or so since I just recently saw him to get off the Effexor and on the Celexa. In the meantime I will try the flax seed oil and see what happens. Thanks again for your help Nancy, Bonnie
Response:
Another question, (sorry I’m full of them) if you take a thyroid hormone as a treatment for BP is there a chance that it can eventually cause you to have thyroid problems?
There are two kinds of thyroid replacements. Synthetic (synthroid and levothyroid and levoxine (not sure of spelling)) and natural (Cytomel and Armour). AFAIK, the natural ones can be an on and off treatment and they will not have a long term effect on your thyroid. However, they are less stable and must be dosed more carefully and usually you need blood work more often (like once a week at first). Both Cytomel and Armour are being used to treat chronic pain and chronic fatigue syndrome with some success. Synthetic thyroid will eventually, over the long run, eat your thyroid, thus making you dependant on them for the rest of your life. For me, it is just one tiny pill a day–so not a big deal. Neither will cause thyroid disease. HTH, Nancy administrator/creator/moderator alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info (moderated) alt.support.depression.manic.moderated to email me from news groups, just remove the Z.
Response:
Lamactil is an anticonvulsant being used as a mood stabilizer that works well for some people; it has an anti-depressant effect that’s almost as significant as standard antidepressants. Can this be taken with a regular antidepressant? I will ask my pdoc about it. Yes – I don’t know of any antidepressant that you can’t take with it, but ask your doctor just in case.
Thanks for your suggestion and help. When I do see my pdoc next I know I will need to discuss mood stabilizers with him and I will ask about this one. Does Lamactil have a tendency to make many sleepy or to gain weight? Those are two side effects I hope to avoid. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also, MAOI’s like Nardil and Parnate have been mentioned as being less likely to switch someone into a hypomania or mania, but the research evidence on this is not strong. Thyroid hormone can sometimes be beneficial in rapid cycling or resistant depression. For more info on this, see: http://www.psycheducation.org/index.html You know I was thinking that I may have a thyroid problem due to some of the health problems I’ve been having and my regular (GP) doctor ran some blood work for it but it all came back OK. That doesn’t matter in the treatment of mood disorders – thyroid hormone is used as an adjunct to boost response of antidepressants or to "smooth out" rapid cycling. See www.psychguides.com and click on the link "Bipolar Disorder 2000" for more info. You can actually print out the pages re: treatment of bipolar with thyroid hormone and show your doctor, if he’s unfamiliar with using thyroid hormone. That’s what I did. It’s his and your decision together.
Another question, (sorry I’m full of them) if you take a thyroid hormone as a treatment for BP is there a chance that it can eventually cause you to have thyroid problems? You can ask your doctor about these options if you wish. Good luck, Hoosier Thanks a lot for your suggestions Hoosier, I appreciate them. Bonnie You’re welcome. As they say, "Knowledge is Power". Hoosier
Absolutely, we can never learn too much when we are dealing with our health. Thanks again and have a nice weekend, Bonnie
Response:
Thanks for your suggestion and help. When I do see my pdoc next I know I will need to discuss mood stabilizers with him and I will ask about this one. Does Lamactil have a tendency to make many sleepy or to gain weight? Those are two side effects I hope to avoid.
As far as gaining weight, it has less of a tendency to do that than other medications, but is still a problem for some people (how’s that for a nebulous answer?). I didn’t gain any weight with it, but I take a lower dose than most people. Everyone is different of course. One anticonvulsant mood stabilizer that is known not to cause weight gain (even has a tendency to cause weight loss in some people) is Topamax. As far as sleepiness, again, I didn’t have any problem with it. I haven’t heard this is a big problem, but it is listed in the package insert as being possible. Another question, (sorry I’m full of them) if you take a thyroid hormone as a treatment for BP is there a chance that it can eventually cause you to have thyroid problems?
I’ve never heard of this happening, but you might want to ask an endocrinologist or your internist this question. A medication guidebook I would highly recommend is called "The Essential Guide to Psychiatric Drugs", by Jack Gorman, M.D. (third edition). Even though it’s five years old, it still has plenty of good info in it. Good luck. Hoosier
Response:
your comments indicate a mood disorder,hypomania but most of the time you`re very depressed.i`m like that,much longer depressions also,but i have had manic episodes.I take Lithium,which has been the best stabilizer for me(& that varies from one person to another,of course),you might or might not dom well on a small dosage of lithium(300 mgs. 3X daily)—-i also have the experience you related—the depressions last so long & are so severe that hypomania seems like a blessing.i get to feel good for awhile.
I’m glad to hear that the Lithium is helpful to you. My depressions are much worse and longer than any hypomania and I don’t think I’ve been truly manic, although maybe close a few times. Initially I had to think really hard about my feelings and reactions at various times in my life before I realized I had ever been hypomanic. I then began to realize there were times in my life that I seemed to ‘lose control’ over my own reactions to experiences. Times I said or did something that was very uncharacteristic with the way I normally act. I’ve had so much trouble finding ADs that help my depression that when one does help I feel like I have to "hurry up and enjoy it" before it stops working for me. I can go through my house and say "That closet was cleaned and reorganized through the help of Prozac." or some other accomplishment was reached through the help of Effexor, etc. etc. The initial hypomania I sometimes get is a blessing and I wish it would last but unfortunately it doesn’t. Either I burn myself out and start stressing over things too much or I end up back in the throes of depression. then of course rger are the costs of hypomania &/or mania..fr an AD i take Wellbutrin.& like you I`ve been depressed most of my life(yes,throughout chilhood).It helps some,or i`d probably be in bed or elsewhere.(We may have come from the same planet)
I understand very well as I also was depressed even throughout childhood. I never sought treatment for it until I was in my 40’s probably because depression runs strongly in my family and none of them were treated either. I guess it took some time for me to realize that it wasn’t normal. Good luck HH(i tried Dpakote & another antiseizure med-they all made me drowsy also)HH -that`s enough or too much.. while i`m here-Klonopin is an antianxiety medication,and can be addictive.
I only take it at bedtime and most of the time I take 1/2 of a .5 mg tablet – so just 1/2 of the lowest dose available. I have a bad problem with jaw clenching and tooth grinding and the Klonopin along with a mouth guard at night helps a bit. It also helps to have it on hand in case of the occasional trouble I have with PTSD or panic attacks. the line between hypomania & mania is quite unclear—i could not keep the hypomania from becoming mania.then everything (fr me) becomes out of control,unmanageable,with some terrible consequences-personal,financial,health–)that`s whyi said -if there`s a chance of mania-a mood stabilizer should be seriously considered.i hope this;made sense.HH bmew -. .dw)e
That line is unclear isn’t it? Thanks for all your help Harry, I appreciate it. Bonnie
Response:
Thanks Nancy for your helpful information. I had wondered how good the basic thyroid blood test actually is at confirming such problems. I have been through a host of health issues in recent months due to some heart and blood pressure problems combined with some negative effects of the Effexor I *was* on. I am still waiting for results on the most recent tests I had at the cardiology clinic after which I may have yet more med changes. Once I get past all this I will see how I am doing and if necessary I will ask for more thorough testing on my thyroid. It sounds like you really went through a lot of problems with your thyroid in addition to the other health issues you have to deal with. I admire your ability to stand up to all this and come out a winner which you show clearly that you have done! One thing I have learned throughout some of the health issues I have – you *have* to learn to be ultimately responsible for your own health. Yes, we must have our doctors but we also must research our individual conditions and not be afraid to ask or if necessary demand certain tests or treatments. Bonnie
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lamactil is an anticonvulsant being used as a mood stabilizer that works well for some people; it has an anti-depressant effect that’s almost as significant as standard antidepressants. Can this be taken with a regular antidepressant? I will ask my pdoc about it. Yes. Also, MAOI’s like Nardil and Parnate have been mentioned as being less likely to switch someone into a hypomania or mania, but the research evidence on this is not strong. The problem with MAOI’s is you must avoid certain foods, so it is much more difficult to comply with the treatment regime. Docs are not using MAOI’s so much anymore. Thyroid hormone can sometimes be beneficial in rapid cycling or resistant depression. For more info on this, see: http://www.psycheducation.org/index.html You know I was thinking that I may have a thyroid problem due to some of the health problems I’ve been having and my regular (GP) doctor ran some blood work for it but it all came back OK. Normal is relative. My thyroid was low normal and high normal for TSH. Yet, I had a baseball sized tumor on my thyroid, visible across the exam room. It took me 6 months and a formal grievance to get to an endocrinologist. <sigh Once there, and having further tests, I was diagnosed with Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis. I fancy way of saying my thyroid anti-bodies are eating too much thyroid hormone, leaving me hypo thyroid. If you do not feel well–get thee to an endocrinologist for further tests, such as a radio active iodine uptake exam and/or an ultra sound. A needle biopsy on my tumors (there are two from the ultra sound) showed they were benign. But it surprised my endocrinologist, as he was certain they were cysts. Had thyroid replacement not shrunk the tumors, I would have had them I must add that the tumors were so large, they interfered with my ability to swallow. I lost 50 pound in that 6 months I had to wait. I was down to 101 pounds and my regular (new) doc said if I lost any more weight, she would have to "do" something. I have no idea what she meant. 
I consulted my chiropractor (he has more time) and we decided I needed to drink soy protein drinks when I could not eat. This kept me from loosing any more weight. Drinking was much easier than eating. My problems were serious. But my example shows how "normal" blood work may NOT be normal for YOU. If you are not feeling well–get more testing done and really flesh out what is going on in your body. BTW, my DHEA is low normal. So, I went on low dose replacement and I am getting SOME libido back, slowly but surely. 
JMAO, Nancy administrator/creator/moderator alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info (moderated) alt.support.depression.manic.moderated to email me from news groups, just remove the Z.
Response:
our experiences have been somewhat sililiar,i/e.,long severe depresions with brief hypomania (in my case mania also).it tok yrs. for dx because they never saw me manic (& i didn`t know what it was).
Yes, how well I understand what you are saying here. Depression has been something I’ve dealt with all my life however I knew very little about bipolar until my son was diagnosed several years ago. Funny, it took my son discovering his illness for me to more fully discover mine. I `ve been on Lithium (nithing else seems to work (antiseizure meds make me drowsy).I take L & an AD (presently Wellbutrin).if you`re having hypo- or mani you most likely will need mood stabilizer.I`ve never been free of both-usually verydepressed,or
briefly manic-not much in between.(After long D hypo- can seem like a blessing..but it gets worse)these are . some of my experiences.work with it,you never know what will work for you.It`s a difficult thing for some to find a balance-HH -there is that Bruce Cockburn-"the trouble with normal is it only gets worse-so "chronic normals" have their problems HH ——-loo frward to ms
I think what I’ve had is more hypomania and has not been that much of a problem most of the time. However there are those other times when I’ve occasionally have severe negative mood changes and those were a problem. Thanks for your help Harry, Bonnie
Response:
your comments indicate a mood disorder,hypomania but most of the time you`re very depressed.i`m like that,much longer depressions also,but i have had manic episodes.I take Lithium,which has been the best stabilizer for me(& that varies from one person to another,of course),you might or might not dom well on a small dosage of lithium(300 mgs. 3X daily)—-i also have the experience you related—the depressions last so long & are so severe that hypomania seems like a blessing.i get to feel good for awhile.then of course rger are the costs of hypomania &/or mania..fr an AD i take Wellbutrin.& like you I`ve been depressed most of my life(yes,throughout chilhood).It helps some,or i`d probably be in bed or elsewhere.(We may have come from the same planet)Good luck HH(i tried Dpakote & another antiseizure med-they all made me drowsy also)HH -that`s enough or too much.. while i`m here-Klonopin is an antianxiety medication,and can be addictive.the line between hypomania & mania is quite unclear—i could not keep the hypomania from becoming mania.then everything (fr me) becomes out of control,unmanageable,with some terrible consequences-personal,financial,health–)that`s whyi said -if there`s a chance of mania-a mood stabilizer should be seriously considered.i hope this;made sense.HH bmew -. .dw)e
Response:
The problem with MAOI’s is you must avoid certain foods, so it is much more difficult to comply with the treatment regime. Docs are not using MAOI’s so much anymore.
This is true – but I disagree that it is "much more difficult to comply with the treatment regime." The list of foods is not comprehensive – but you have to watch some classes of medications that interact (namely, sympathomimetics – ephidrine, etc – things found in cold and sinus preparations). I’m not going to go into the list, but it isn’t a mile long. I have been on an MAOI for 11 years and found it is not difficult to comply with the diet – and I don’t think it would be for your average person if they were motivated and somewhat vigilant about their treatment. The more important thing is watching out for what other doctors prescribe to you – such as dextromethorphan (found in many cough syrups – an MAOI no-no), or a decongestant that contains a sympathomimetic. To summarize, physicians and patients have, in my opinion, largely overreacted to the dietary/medication requirements of an oftentimes useful class of medications that some people could benefit from. Another big myth is that you have to avoid all cheeses – not true – only the AGED variety. Few people know about the following article published a few years back: Shulman, KI, Walker, SE. Refining the MAOI Diet: Tyramine Content of Pizzas and Soy Products. Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, March 1999; 60:3. Pizzas from large chains (Dominoes, Pizza Hut, etc.) were measured for their tyramine content. The tyramine in these freshly made pizzas averaged from 0.0 to 0.38 mg of tyramine (for a 1/2 medium double cheese, double pepperoni from Dominoes). A tyramine level of 6 mg or less was considered safe. So basically, FRESH pizzas from chains are fine to eat, provided they ARE fresh and use mozzarella and American type cheeses, which most chains do. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thyroid hormone can sometimes be beneficial in rapid cycling or resistant depression. For more info on this, see: http://www.psycheducation.org/index.html You know I was thinking that I may have a thyroid problem due to some of the health problems I’ve been having and my regular (GP) doctor ran some blood work for it but it all came back OK. Normal is relative. My thyroid was low normal and high normal for TSH. Yet, I had a baseball sized tumor on my thyroid, visible across the exam room. It took me 6 months and a formal grievance to get to an endocrinologist. <sigh Once there, and having further tests, I was diagnosed with Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis. I fancy way of saying my thyroid anti-bodies are eating too much thyroid hormone, leaving me hypo thyroid. If you do not feel well–get thee to an endocrinologist for further tests, such as a radio active iodine uptake exam and/or an ultra sound. A needle biopsy on my tumors (there are two from the ultra sound) showed they were benign. But it surprised my endocrinologist, as he was certain they were cysts. Had thyroid replacement not shrunk the tumors, I would have had them I must add that the tumors were so large, they interfered with my ability to swallow. I lost 50 pound in that 6 months I had to wait. I was down to 101 pounds and my regular (new) doc said if I lost any more weight, she would have to "do" something. I have no idea what she meant.
I think this is a long shot, unless you clearly have a growth on your thyroid, or like acoftil, have definite symptoms (like difficulty swallowing). If your internist suspects something (you can have him palpitate your thyroid, if you wish) or if you suspect something, he will most likely refer you to an endocrinologist (although there is a chance you might have the same problem as acoftil). If you don’t have a tumor, the endocrinologist will most likely look at your TSH and T4 levels and tell you, "Sorry, can’t help you" if they are in the normal range. If your thyroid gland is normal looking and feeling, and your TSH and other levels are normal, I would probably go directly to the psychiatrist and ask about a trial of T4 or T4/T3, but this is just my opinion. You can go to an endocrinologist if you like, but I wouldn’t get my hopes up that he/she will help you if everything looks normal. I consulted my chiropractor (he has more time) and we decided I needed to drink soy protein drinks when I could not eat. This kept me from loosing any more weight. Drinking was much easier than eating.
I don’t put much faith in chiropractors, because few practice evidence-based medicine. But some people insist they get help from them – whatever floats your boat, I guess. My problems were serious. But my example shows how "normal" blood work may NOT be normal for YOU. If you are not feeling well–get more testing done and really flesh out what is going on in your body.
I would agree that normal tests may not always mean the absence of a serious condition. There are limits, however. I would be cautious about approaching certain "homeopathic" clinics and practitioners. Sometimes they want to put you through a log of very expensive tests that have no scientific relavance whatsoever. Again, my opinion. Hoosier
Response:
Lamactil is an anticonvulsant being used as a mood stabilizer that works well for some people; it has an anti-depressant effect that’s almost as significant as standard antidepressants.
Can this be taken with a regular antidepressant? I will ask my pdoc about it. Yes. Also, MAOI’s like Nardil and Parnate have been mentioned as being less likely to switch someone into a hypomania or mania, but the research evidence on this is not strong.
The problem with MAOI’s is you must avoid certain foods, so it is much more difficult to comply with the treatment regime. Docs are not using MAOI’s so much anymore. Thyroid hormone can sometimes be beneficial in rapid cycling or resistant depression. For more info on this, see: http://www.psycheducation.org/index.html You know I was thinking that I may have a thyroid problem due to some of the health problems I’ve been having and my regular (GP) doctor ran some blood work for it but it all came back OK.
Normal is relative. My thyroid was low normal and high normal for TSH. Yet, I had a baseball sized tumor on my thyroid, visible across the exam room. It took me 6 months and a formal grievance to get to an endocrinologist. <sigh Once there, and having further tests, I was diagnosed with Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis. I fancy way of saying my thyroid anti-bodies are eating too much thyroid hormone, leaving me hypo thyroid. If you do not feel well–get thee to an endocrinologist for further tests, such as a radio active iodine uptake exam and/or an ultra sound. A needle biopsy on my tumors (there are two from the ultra sound) showed they were benign. But it surprised my endocrinologist, as he was certain they were cysts. Had thyroid replacement not shrunk the tumors, I would have had them I must add that the tumors were so large, they interfered with my ability to swallow. I lost 50 pound in that 6 months I had to wait. I was down to 101 pounds and my regular (new) doc said if I lost any more weight, she would have to "do" something. I have no idea what she meant. I consulted my chiropractor (he has more time) and we decided I needed to drink soy protein drinks when I could not eat. This kept me from loosing any more weight. Drinking was much easier than eating. My problems were serious. But my example shows how "normal" blood work may NOT be normal for YOU. If you are not feeling well–get more testing done and really flesh out what is going on in your body. BTW, my DHEA is low normal. So, I went on low dose replacement and I am getting SOME libido back, slowly but surely. JMAO, Nancy administrator/creator/moderator alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info (moderated) alt.support.depression.manic.moderated to email me from news groups, just remove the Z.
Response:
Thank you for this suggestion. I will try this. Can you get the flax seed oil as a liquid not in capsule form? Is it safe to use with other medications? If this helps does that mean I need a mood stabilizer or that I could just stay on the flax seed oil?
I recommended "cold pressed flax seed oil" which is liquid and MUST be kept refrigerated. I do not eat breakfast and it also helps settle my stomach in the morning. You can get flax seed oil in many forms, but the cold pressed form is the most potent, thus you need less of it. You should be able to find it down the health food isle at the grocery store, or at any health food store. If it helps–tell you doctor then you and he/she can decide how to proceed. Medications are a very individual thing. Do NOT forget to get adequate b vitamins. 200 mg or mcg of all of them. I can recommend a company and a product which I have not found a good replacement for. Although I heard that www.vitaminshoppe.com carries a close knock off. I’ve never checked it out. If you start lithium. You should start on a low dose and get your blood levels, creatine and liver checked at least every 3 months. That will hopefully prevent any long term side effects. Although it won’t prevent the potential for thyroid problems long down the road. BTW, my thyroid problems are not from lithium. They are hereditary. HTH, Nancy administrator/creator/moderator alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info (moderated) alt.support.depression.manic.moderated to email me from news groups, just remove the Z.
Response:
Lamactil is an anticonvulsant being used as a mood stabilizer that works well for some people; it has an anti-depressant effect that’s almost as significant as standard antidepressants. Can this be taken with a regular antidepressant? I will ask my pdoc about it.
Yes – I don’t know of any antidepressant that you can’t take with it, but ask your doctor just in case. Also, MAOI’s like Nardil and Parnate have been mentioned as being less likely to switch someone into a hypomania or mania, but the research evidence on this is not strong. Thyroid hormone can sometimes be beneficial in rapid cycling or resistant depression. For more info on this, see: http://www.psycheducation.org/index.html You know I was thinking that I may have a thyroid problem due to some of the health problems I’ve been having and my regular (GP) doctor ran some blood work for it but it all came back OK.
That doesn’t matter in the treatment of mood disorders – thyroid hormone is used as an adjunct to boost response of antidepressants or to "smooth out" rapid cycling. See www.psychguides.com and click on the link "Bipolar Disorder 2000" for more info. You can actually print out the pages re: treatment of bipolar with thyroid hormone and show your doctor, if he’s unfamiliar with using thyroid hormone. That’s what I did. It’s his and your decision together. You can ask your doctor about these options if you wish. Good luck, Hoosier Thanks a lot for your suggestions Hoosier, I appreciate them. Bonnie
You’re welcome. As they say, "Knowledge is Power". Hoosier
Response:
Lamactil is an anticonvulsant being used as a mood stabilizer that works well for some people; it has an anti-depressant effect that’s almost as significant as standard antidepressants.
Can this be taken with a regular antidepressant? I will ask my pdoc about it. Also, MAOI’s like Nardil and Parnate have been mentioned as being less likely to switch someone into a hypomania or mania, but the research evidence on this is not strong. Thyroid hormone can sometimes be beneficial in rapid cycling or resistant depression. For more info on this, see: http://www.psycheducation.org/index.html
You know I was thinking that I may have a thyroid problem due to some of the health problems I’ve been having and my regular (GP) doctor ran some blood work for it but it all came back OK. You can ask your doctor about these options if you wish. Good luck, Hoosier
Thanks a lot for your suggestions Hoosier, I appreciate them. Bonnie
Response:
our experiences have been somewhat sililiar,i/e.,long severe depresions with brief hypomania (in my case mania also).it tok yrs. for dx because they never saw me manic (& i didn`t know what it was).I `ve been on Lithium (nithing else seems to work (antiseizure meds make me drowsy).I take L & an AD (presently Wellbutrin).if you`re having hypo- or mani you most likely will need mood stabilizer.I`ve never been free of both-usually verydepressed,or briefly manic-not much in between.(After long D hypo- can seem like a blessing..but it gets worse)these are some of my experiences.work with it,you never know what will work for you.It`s a difficult thing for some to find a balance-HH -there is that Bruce Cockburn-"the trouble with normal is it only gets worse-so "chronic normals" have their problems HH ——-loo frward to ms
Response:
You should ask your doctor these questions. Having said that, my opinion is that you need a mood stabilizer along with that anti depressant. Otherwise you risk the manic phase. BTW, most bipolars notice the depressive phase more than the manic phase. Your friends/spouse will notice the manic more. know
Thanks for your response Rich. I do plan on going over this with my pdoc. I have been through so many medication changes and problems that I really dread each change and/or addition. When I find an antidepressant that does help my depression it is like a gift even if I do eventually get a bit hypomanic. But as you said I know I do risk the manic phase and that is my concern. My husband does notice these tendancies in me more than I do even though I try very hard to be aware of my condition. Maybe I’ll get lucky and find a mood stabilizer that does not have many side effects. Bonnie
Response:
I think you answered your own question. <g For most beepers, depression is the first symptom and the first thing treated. Once on anti-depressants, the manic tendencies come about. For most of us, left untreated, the manic tendencies will worsen over time. So, the answer is, you will probably need a mood stabilizer, if not now, sometime in the future.
I think you are right. There is a part of me that keeps fighting any new medication. I’ve had so many problems with so many of them. I do worry that the manic tendencies will worsen if not treated. I have read about the "kindling theory" in regards to untreated bipolar getting worse. IMO, you probably need the mood stabilizer now. You write very well how I felt when I first read about lithium. I asked my pdoc to try it and he agreed. I felt a significant change for the better after about a week.
I think there is still a part of me that is not accepting the bipolar II diagnosis which I recieved last October. I have known that I was severely depressed most of my life but it took a long time and a psychologist and psychiatrist to convince me to try antidepressants. Even then I never even considered that I could be bipolar. Several years ago my youngest son (in his 20’s) was diagnosed as bipolar II. Both of my parents were alcoholics and my Mother was seriously depressed and suicidal. There were other close relatives with similar tendencies but none of them were "officially" diagnosed. Even with all this in the family I still did not think I could be bipolar. When I try to look at myself and my own symptoms and feelings I just get confused. I *know* the depression – all too well. The other feelings still confuse me because while they do not seem bad enough to be an illness as such, they do seem to not be normal and others notice more in me than I do in myself. You can try a little experiment at home. Try taking 2 teaspoons of flax seed oil, or 8 to 10 grams of fish oil a day for a week. See if that helps. The therapeutic dose is 1 to 2 tablespoons of flax seed oil, or 10 to 15 grams of fish oil.
Thank you for this suggestion. I will try this. Can you get the flax seed oil as a liquid not in capsule form? Is it safe to use with other medications? If this helps does that mean I need a mood stabilizer or that I could just stay on the flax seed oil? Lithium may require a prescription, but it is a naturally occurring salt mineral used for thousands of years before any study was done on it.
I keep telling myself this but somehow I feel uneasy about taking it. So far my pdoc has not suggested it and I have not asked. I also worry about long term side effects. I think maybe more than anything I am just still having difficulty accepting my diagnosis. It is so hard, especially when so many of the people I am around tend to have negative feelings about anyone with "mental illness". This has got to be one of the most misunderstood illnesses. Too many people jump to too many bad conclusions over such illnesses. It is because of this that I especially appreciate groups like this one. Thanks for your help Nancy. I just turned 50 (geez) but at times I still feel like a confused child. Bonnie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HTH, JMO, Nancy administrator/creator/moderator alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info (moderated) alt.support.depression.manic.moderated to email me from news groups, just remove the Z.
Response:
Lamactil is an anticonvulsant being used as a mood stabilizer that works well for some people; it has an anti-depressant effect that’s almost as significant as standard antidepressants. Also, MAOI’s like Nardil and Parnate have been mentioned as being less likely to switch someone into a hypomania or mania, but the research evidence on this is not strong. Thyroid hormone can sometimes be beneficial in rapid cycling or resistant depression. For more info on this, see: http://www.psycheducation.org/index.html You can ask your doctor about these options if you wish. Good luck, Hoosier
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have dealt with depression, often extreme, most of my life. I have also been diagnosed with PTSD, an anxiety disorder and bipolar II. I fight depressive symptoms much more than manic symptoms, however I do get hypomanic at times. My question is – if you have more depression than mania then can you get by with just an antidepressant and not a mood stabilizer? I know, anything that works for each individual, but I’m kind of struggling with this for several reasons. My depression is treatment resistant and I get so tired of going through different meds for the depression that I really don’t want to add more pills in the mix. Whenever I do find an AD that works for me I also tend to get a bit hypomanic. For the most part I like this when compared to the non-functioning depression. At least I get things done and feel somewhat better about the world. However there are also times that I get a little uneasy about the way I am feeling. Like recently I’ve been having the racing thoughts like crazy and I keep trying to plan out more things to get done than I would ever get done and each one of them seems almost urgent to me when in reality I know they are not. It’s like I have to run, run, run getting things done or at least trying to and I often end up with a lot of half finished projects while the whole time I am planning out more "have-to" projects to get done. I also catch myself talking fast and coming across a little hyper at times. Whenever I find an AD that does help my depression I start having these other symptoms. I know for bipolars that is not an unusual reaction to ADs but I am hesitant to add a mood stabilizer to the mix. I took Neurontin for awhile and it just made me sleepy. I do take a small dose of klonopin every night and I think I read that can have some mood stabilizing properties? I’ve had so much trouble with finding the right meds that I am afraid to add a mood stabilizer. I can not live with the kind of depression that I get and I fear a mood stabilizer might take me back to that depression. Anyone have any helpful thoughts on maintaining BPII on antidepressants alone? I’ve done it for the most part but I feel a little scared sometimes when the mania starts sneaking up on me like it has been recently. How do you know where to draw the line with mania/hypomainia? How do you know when you feel the mania symptoms that *this* won’t be the one that goes too far and leaves you regreting not doing something to prevent it? Thanks so much, Bonnie
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Bonnie, I’m BPII, and like you, my main problem is teetering on the depression side of the scale… now I *do* get hypomanic, but I’d prefer that to the depression where everything is so dark, so hopeless, so terrible and I often get suicidal… Antidepressant alone? Hmm, I was on prozac alone at one point, but that’s way back when I was diagnosed as unipolar depression. I was acting REALLY weird on it though. I guess looking back on it I started rapid cycling… one day I went through five distinct moods in the span of two hours and freaked the crap out of the friends who were the recpients of those mood swings. Also, it didn’t do a damn thing for the depression or the suicidal urges.
Prozac helped me for a couple of years, although I was on Neurontin at the time too. The Prozac suddenly stopped helping me – the old "Prozac poop-out" I guess. I went through a bout with Effexor and it helped but also ran my blood pressure dangerously high. I had previously been on Wellbutrin and Serzone and neither helped my depression. I am now on Celexa and starting to feel better. However as my depression gets further away I sense my hypomanic tendencies coming back. You know, now that I think about it my first hint of being bipolar was the early weeks I was on Prozac…… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now, not all mood stabilizers are evil, evil, evil… <G and believe me I thought that for a while. Yes, some have sleepiness as a side effect, but not all and if your needed dosage is on the low side then sleepiness shouldn’t be a problem with ANY mood stabilizer. I was on neurontin for a while as well and it didn’t do much for me, depression wise either. Unfortuantely, there’s this medication game that we all have to play with bp, and it takes a few tries to find one that works or has side effects that aren’t disgusting. For example, some people on this board will tell you that depakote has changed their lives, others will groan about weight gain and sleepiness. Meds effect everyone differently, it’s all about your body chemistry and make up and unfortunately it’s really a trial and error kind of thing. As for mania/hypomania, I’ve never been full-blown manic, I’m more… "I feel like I’m going to jump out of my skin because I can’t sit STILL already!" that kind of thing… hmmm. Well, the energy rush is fun, the feeling like I’m going to jump out of my skin isn’t. Anyway, as I said above, when I was on AD alone, I was in a depressed phase and just spiraled down further so the above wasn’t really a concern. Oh, and I kept acting… well, really strange.
How well I understand what you are saying here. After years of depression the hypomania can be a welcome relief. What gets to me is when I am overtaken by the rapid thoughts or when I become almost obsessed with getting certain things done even though I rarely get them all accomplished. I can tell when I find an AD that helps my depression – I suddenly want to redecorate every room in the house. At first it is fun then I start feeling "driven" to do more than I can humanly do. Or I start several new hobbies all at the same time but don’t get very far with any of them. I say, go for the mood stabilizer, anti-depressants alone don’t often allievate symptoms, or they cause funky moods (YMMV as always!) and talk with the pdoc, start small… and as always see how YOU feel on it because that’s the most important thing. — – Susan "Whatever tomorrow brings I’ll be there with open arms and open eyes" – Incubus
Thanks Susan, I appreciate your input. It helps me to understand my feelings when I get feedback form others that understand all this. Bonnie
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -My question is – if you have more depression than mania then can you get by with just an antidepressant and not a mood stabilizer? I know, anything that works for each individual, but I’m kind of struggling with this for several reasons. My depression is treatment resistant and I get so tired of going through different meds for the depression that I really don’t want to add more pills in the mix. Whenever I do find an AD that works for me I also tend to get a bit hypomanic. For the most part I like this when compared to the non-functioning depression. At least I get things done and feel somewhat better about the world. However there are also times that I get a little uneasy about the way I am feeling. Like recently I’ve been having the racing thoughts like crazy and I keep trying to plan out more things to get done than I would ever get done and each one of them seems almost urgent to me when in reality I know they are not. It’s like I have to run, run, run getting things done or at least trying to and I often end up with a lot of half finished projects while the whole time I am planning out more "have-to" projects to get done. I also catch myself talking fast and coming across a little hyper at times.
I think you answered your own question. <g For most beepers, depression is the first symptom and the first thing treated. Once on anti-depressants, the manic tendencies come about. For most of us, left untreated, the manic tendencies will worsen over time. So, the answer is, you will probably need a mood stabilizer, if not now, sometime in the future. IMO, you probably need the mood stabilizer now. You write very well how I felt when I first read about lithium. I asked my pdoc to try it and he agreed. I felt a significant change for the better after about a week. You can try a little experiment at home. Try taking 2 teaspoons of flax seed oil, or 8 to 10 grams of fish oil a day for a week. See if that helps. The therapeutic dose is 1 to 2 tablespoons of flax seed oil, or 10 to 15 grams of fish oil. Lithium may require a prescription, but it is a naturally occurring salt mineral used for thousands of years before any study was done on it. HTH, JMO, Nancy administrator/creator/moderator alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info (moderated) alt.support.depression.manic.moderated to email me from news groups, just remove the Z.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have dealt with depression, often extreme, most of my life. I have also been diagnosed with PTSD, an anxiety disorder and bipolar II. I fight depressive symptoms much more than manic symptoms, however I do get hypomanic at times. My question is – if you have more depression than mania then can you get by with just an antidepressant and not a mood stabilizer? I know, anything that works for each individual, but I’m kind of struggling with this for several reasons. My depression is treatment resistant and I get so tired of going through different meds for the depression that I really don’t want to add more pills in the mix. Whenever I do find an AD that works for me I also tend to get a bit hypomanic. For the most part I like this when compared to the non-functioning depression. At least I get things done and feel somewhat better about the world. However there are also times that I get a little uneasy about the way I am feeling. Like recently I’ve been having the racing thoughts like crazy and I keep trying to plan out more things to get done than I would ever get done and each one of them seems almost urgent to me when in reality I know they are not. It’s like I have to run, run, run getting things done or at least trying to and I often end up with a lot of half finished projects while the whole time I am planning out more "have-to" projects to get done. I also catch myself talking fast and coming across a little hyper at times. Whenever I find an AD that does help my depression I start having these other symptoms. I know for bipolars that is not an unusual reaction to ADs but I am hesitant to add a mood stabilizer to the mix. I took Neurontin for awhile and it just made me sleepy. I do take a small dose of klonopin every night and I think I read that can have some mood stabilizing properties? I’ve had so much trouble with finding the right meds that I am afraid to add a mood stabilizer. I can not live with the kind of depression that I get and I fear a mood stabilizer might take me back to that depression. Anyone have any helpful thoughts on maintaining BPII on antidepressants alone? I’ve done it for the most part but I feel a little scared sometimes when the mania starts sneaking up on me like it has been recently. How do you know where to draw the line with mania/hypomainia? How do you know when you feel the mania symptoms that *this* won’t be the one that goes too far and leaves you regreting not doing something to prevent it? Thanks so much, Bonnie
Hi Bonnie, I’m BPII, and like you, my main problem is teetering on the depression side of the scale… now I *do* get hypomanic, but I’d prefer that to the depression where everything is so dark, so hopeless, so terrible and I often get suicidal… Antidepressant alone? Hmm, I was on prozac alone at one point, but that’s way back when I was diagnosed as unipolar depression. I was acting REALLY weird on it though. I guess looking back on it I started rapid cycling… one day I went through five distinct moods in the span of two hours and freaked the crap out of the friends who were the recpients of those mood swings. Also, it didn’t do a damn thing for the depression or the suicidal urges. Now, not all mood stabilizers are evil, evil, evil… <G and believe me I thought that for a while. Yes, some have sleepiness as a side effect, but not all and if your needed dosage is on the low side then sleepiness shouldn’t be a problem with ANY mood stabilizer. I was on neurontin for a while as well and it didn’t do much for me, depression wise either. Unfortuantely, there’s this medication game that we all have to play with bp, and it takes a few tries to find one that works or has side effects that aren’t disgusting. For example, some people on this board will tell you that depakote has changed their lives, others will groan about weight gain and sleepiness. Meds effect everyone differently, it’s all about your body chemistry and make up and unfortunately it’s really a trial and error kind of thing. As for mania/hypomania, I’ve never been full-blown manic, I’m more… "I feel like I’m going to jump out of my skin because I can’t sit STILL already!" that kind of thing… hmmm. Well, the energy rush is fun, the feeling like I’m going to jump out of my skin isn’t. Anyway, as I said above, when I was on AD alone, I was in a depressed phase and just spiraled down further so the above wasn’t really a concern. Oh, and I kept acting… well, really strange. I say, go for the mood stabilizer, anti-depressants alone don’t often allievate symptoms, or they cause funky moods (YMMV as always!) and talk with the pdoc, start small… and as always see how YOU feel on it because that’s the most important thing. — – Susan "Whatever tomorrow brings I’ll be there with open arms and open eyes" – Incubus
Response:
You should ask your doctor these questions. Having said that, my opinion is that you need a mood stabilizer along with that anti depressant. Otherwise you risk the manic phase. BTW, most bipolars notice the depressive phase more than the manic phase. Your friends/spouse will notice the manic more.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have dealt with depression, often extreme, most of my life. I have also been diagnosed with PTSD, an anxiety disorder and bipolar II. I fight depressive symptoms much more than manic symptoms, however I do get hypomanic at times. My question is – if you have more depression than mania then can you get by with just an antidepressant and not a mood stabilizer? I know, anything that works for each individual, but I’m kind of struggling with this for several reasons. My depression is treatment resistant and I get so tired of going through different meds for the depression that I really don’t want to add more pills in the mix. Whenever I do find an AD that works for me I also tend to get a bit hypomanic. For the most part I like this when compared to the non-functioning depression. At least I get things done and feel somewhat better about the world. However there are also times that I get a little uneasy about the way I am feeling. Like recently I’ve been having the racing thoughts like crazy and I keep trying to plan out more things to get done than I would ever get done and each one of them seems almost urgent to me when in reality I know they are not. It’s like I have to run, run, run getting things done or at least trying to and I often end up with a lot of half finished projects while the whole time I am planning out more "have-to" projects to get done. I also catch myself talking fast and coming across a little hyper at times. Whenever I find an AD that does help my depression I start having these other symptoms. I know for bipolars that is not an unusual reaction to ADs but I am hesitant to add a mood stabilizer to the mix. I took Neurontin for awhile and it just made me sleepy. I do take a small dose of klonopin every night and I think I read that can have some mood stabilizing properties? I’ve had so much trouble with finding the right meds that I am afraid to add a mood stabilizer. I can not live with the kind of depression that I get and I fear a mood stabilizer might take me back to that depression. Anyone have any helpful thoughts on maintaining BPII on antidepressants alone? I’ve done it for the most part but I feel a little scared sometimes when the mania starts sneaking up on me like it has been recently. How do you know where to draw the line with mania/hypomainia? How do you know when you feel the mania symptoms that *this* won’t be the one that goes too far and leaves you regreting not doing something to prevent it? Thanks so much, Bonnie
Response:
I have dealt with depression, often extreme, most of my life. I have also been diagnosed with PTSD, an anxiety disorder and bipolar II. I fight depressive symptoms much more than manic symptoms, however I do get hypomanic at times. My question is – if you have more depression than mania then can you get by with just an antidepressant and not a mood stabilizer? I know, anything that works for each individual, but I’m kind of struggling with this for several reasons. My depression is treatment resistant and I get so tired of going through different meds for the depression that I really don’t want to add more pills in the mix. Whenever I do find an AD that works for me I also tend to get a bit hypomanic. For the most part I like this when compared to the non-functioning depression. At least I get things done and feel somewhat better about the world. However there are also times that I get a little uneasy about the way I am feeling. Like recently I’ve been having the racing thoughts like crazy and I keep trying to plan out more things to get done than I would ever get done and each one of them seems almost urgent to me when in reality I know they are not. It’s like I have to run, run, run getting things done or at least trying to and I often end up with a lot of half finished projects while the whole time I am planning out more "have-to" projects to get done. I also catch myself talking fast and coming across a little hyper at times. Whenever I find an AD that does help my depression I start having these other symptoms. I know for bipolars that is not an unusual reaction to ADs but I am hesitant to add a mood stabilizer to the mix. I took Neurontin for awhile and it just made me sleepy. I do take a small dose of klonopin every night and I think I read that can have some mood stabilizing properties? I’ve had so much trouble with finding the right meds that I am afraid to add a mood stabilizer. I can not live with the kind of depression that I get and I fear a mood stabilizer might take me back to that depression. Anyone have any helpful thoughts on maintaining BPII on antidepressants alone? I’ve done it for the most part but I feel a little scared sometimes when the mania starts sneaking up on me like it has been recently. How do you know where to draw the line with mania/hypomainia? How do you know when you feel the mania symptoms that *this* won’t be the one that goes too far and leaves you regreting not doing something to prevent it? Thanks so much, Bonnie
Response:
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