Posts belonging to Category 'Thyroid Enlargement'

Iodine public health nutrition (was: More Cities….)

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – True, iodine excess toxicity can happen, but at most to only 1-in-10 people (or much fewer) eating perhaps a 3 milligram (3000 microgram) daily seaweed/kelp diet. (I think RDA is 150 micrograms.) In short, this is Sean, You brought up some issues that I had never considered. For iron, the toxicity is only going to be seen in people with a specific genetic makeup, with the correct set of genes, excess iron is never going to be hepatotoxic, it will only be GI toxic. It’s quite possible that iodine is in a similar situation, the thyroid gland can protect itself from iodine toxicity unless a specific set of genes is present. This is the main reason why the U.S. stopped mandating that all salt sold had to have iodine in it. Do you know about what year this happened? I don’t know when the act mandating that iodine be added to all salt in the U.S. was repealed. Thyroid versus the several adrenals family being about equally important for protein metabolic enzyme replication from DNA, I’ve concluded that adrenal problems are far more difficult to deal with as a practical matter. I’ve never really covered the adrenals other than their very high levels of vitamin C. Dietary factors that affect adrenal function is an area that I have not gotten into. Just for the thyroid, it was really too much for me to handle. You think that glandular extracts help with both thyroid and adrenal problems. Both the thyroid and the adrenals would have been eaten in the past when an animal was killed. For carnivores today, there does not seem to be a sharing system, status in the pride determines who gets first shot at the kill. I’ve read that during the caveman period, evidence has been found that older people who could not hunt where kept alive. They obviously were feed by those that could hunt. Modern man has apparently lost his instinct for seeking out specific foods that are needed for human health. I wonder if the thyroids and adrenals were reserved for certain people in the clan whenever a kill came in?

I stopped buying iodized salt when I started eating fish. When we were kids, we learned in school that people who ate fish got enough iodine. Also, now days we eat food grown all over the place and do not have to rely on food grown locally which may be grown from iodine depleted soils. My concern was that I might be getting too much iodine. Dolores

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As someone who had a goiter, I can’t believe what you just said. You mean that both the lack of iodine AND iodine toxicity are capable of causing a goiter? I never knew that and always assumed it was due to a lack of iodine. [...] Whitney [snip] With too much iodine stored in the thyroid gland, the gland is damaged and this damage causes gland enlargement. [...] Iodine deficiency and iodine toxicity can both knock out the thyroid gland. True, iodine excess toxicity can happen, but at most to only 1-in-10 people (or much fewer) eating perhaps a 3 milligram (3000 microgram) daily seaweed/kelp diet. (I think RDA is 150 micrograms.) In short, this is U.S./Europe unlikely unless one has taken radiographic contrast drugs, or taken more frequently, other synthetic drugs containing high iodine content (for one drug I think 9 mg iodine content per dose was mentioned). And even then, problems only if one’s genes complain, which is often no more than a few hours of probably harmless fever. Whether or not one gets a goiter or hypothyroidism from -excess- iodine is muchly dependent on one’s genes and personal history of iodine intake. (Search Pubmed for: iodine excess goiter) To quote Woeber KA, 1991, review: "An autoregulatory mechanism within the thyroid serves as the first line of defense against fluctuations in the supply of iodine… The pathologic consequences of iodine excess will ensue only when thyroid autoregulation is defective, in that escape from the Wolff-Chaikoff effect [very large quantity of iodine inhibits thyroid hormone synthesis] cannot occur, or when autoregulation is absent. Defective autoregulation characterizes the fetal and neonatal thyroid, Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, radioiodine or surgically treated Graves’ hyperthyroidism, the thyroid of patients with cystic fibrosis, and the thyroid that has been exposed to weak inhibitors of the organic binding of iodine. In these circumstances, the provision of excess iodine may lead to iodide goiter with or without hypothyroidism." In my previous post to this thread, I quoted Adelle Davis’ report of Saxena K M, et al, (Science 138, 430, 1962), suggesting that adults need 3 to 4 mg iodine daily, with Davis’ rationale that Japanese were doing thyroid-well on about 3 mg daily. More recently Konno N, et al, 1994, studied Japanese coastal seaweed-eating villages and concluded in part that "hypothyroidism is more prevalent and marked in subjects consuming further excessive amounts of iodine". However, in the abstract he reported on urine iodine levels, not diet, and the prevalence of hypothyroidism varied surprisingly from zero to a low 9.7%. Therefore Saxena, 1962, is not proved incorrect for 90%+ of population. Pennington JA, 1990, review stated: "It is concluded that some individuals can tolerate very high levels of iodine with no apparent side effects and that iodine intakes less than or equal to 1.000 mg/day are probably safe for the majority of the population, but may cause adverse effects in some individuals." Laurberg P, 2001, review said that elderly subjects had more frequent hypothyroidism from moderate and mild iodine excess (again this was a study of urine, not diet). This is the main reason why the U.S. stopped mandating that all salt sold had to have iodine in it. Do you know about what year this happened? Thyroid problems can be one of the most difficult areas of human metabolism to deal with. Thyroid versus the several adrenals family being about equally important for protein metabolic enzyme replication from DNA, I’ve concluded that adrenal problems are far more difficult to deal with as a practical matter. As for the incidence of adrenal trouble, consider that every disease which responds to steroid drugs may well have a low adrenal cause or contribution. This may include all of the autoimmune diseases. Because, of three major types of functional thyroid trouble –hypothyroidism, Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, and hyperthyroidism– IIRC, the first two respond well to natural thyroid extract, with no expectation of long term side effects. OTOH, the adrenal family is larger and more difficult to replace because of steroid side effects, as well as complicated interactions with other hormones and their pre-hormones. I have tried to better understand this particular problem area to help many who have come to sci.med.nutrition because of overactive or underactive thyroids. There may be some dietary, supplement and/or herbal approaches that might help but I have never felt that I knew enough to really comment on this area. Marty B. After a fair amount of non-pro study, I too am frustrated by the available supplement and/or herbal approaches to hypothyroidism as a specific reductionist symptom (there are holistic tonics like ginseng to try). Reductionist herbal hypothyroidism treatments exist, but seem either iffy (supplements) or use rare and potent herbs which require dosing more like drugs. If however, one views thyroid extract as a glandular food, rather than its legal status as pharma, then it is a natural medicine with exceptional efficacy and nearly zero side effects. Old docs are more likely to know this, but new docs probably don’t. Thyroid hormones can be and have been overused by some of those docs and patients involved in weight control issues. Don’t do that, it causes prescribing trouble for those of us who do well on thyroid extract clinical trials, but can’t pass the official thyroid serum tests. Sean

It’s not a matter of "passing" the TSH test. The interplay between pituitary/hypothalamic release of pulsatile TRH and TSH, thyroid release of triiodothyronine (T3) and thyroxine (T4), feedback suppression of TRH and TSH, and peripheral conversion from T3 to T4 is quite complex. By giving you only the lower potency T4 in the synthetic product, your body can regulate conversion to the higher potency T3 as needed. That way you get a much more (I hate to use this word) natural balance of thyroid hormone since the body has at least partial control. Additionally, the half life of the lower potency hormone is measured in days while the half life of the high potency hormone is measured in hours. People taking dried thyroid extracts frequently have transient hyperthyroid symptoms. On the other hand, it is usually fairly simple to regulate the dose of synthetic T4 so that TSH, free T4, and free T3 are all within the range normally maintained by people without thyroid disease. The excessive suppression of TSH due to the higher level of T3 with the use of dried extracts may be a significant risk factor for osteoporosis.

Response:

True, iodine excess toxicity can happen, but at most to only 1-in-10 people (or much fewer) eating perhaps a 3 milligram (3000 microgram) daily seaweed/kelp diet. (I think RDA is 150 micrograms.) In short, this is

Sean, You brought up some issues that I had never considered. For iron, the toxicity is only going to be seen in people with a specific genetic makeup, with the correct set of genes, excess iron is never going to be hepatotoxic, it will only be GI toxic. It’s quite possible that iodine is in a similar situation, the thyroid gland can protect itself from iodine toxicity unless a specific set of genes is present. This is the main reason why the U.S. stopped mandating that all salt sold had to have iodine in it. Do you know about what year this happened?

I don’t know when the act mandating that iodine be added to all salt in the U.S. was repealed. Thyroid versus the several adrenals family being about equally important for protein metabolic enzyme replication from DNA, I’ve concluded that adrenal problems are far more difficult to deal with as a practical matter.

I’ve never really covered the adrenals other than their very high levels of vitamin C. Dietary factors that affect adrenal function is an area that I have not gotten into. Just for the thyroid, it was really too much for me to handle. You think that glandular extracts help with both thyroid and adrenal problems. Both the thyroid and the adrenals would have been eaten in the past when an animal was killed. For carnivores today, there does not seem to be a sharing system, status in the pride determines who gets first shot at the kill. I’ve read that during the caveman period, evidence has been found that older people who could not hunt where kept alive. They obviously were feed by those that could hunt. Modern man has apparently lost his instinct for seeking out specific foods that are needed for human health. I wonder if the thyroids and adrenals were reserved for certain people in the clan whenever a kill came in? — Marty B. "You are what you eat." http://centernet.okstate.edu/nutrition/index.html

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] Reductionist herbal hypothyroidism treatments exist, but seem either iffy (supplements) or use rare and potent herbs which require dosing more like drugs. If however, one views thyroid extract as a glandular food, rather than its legal status as pharma, then it is a natural medicine with exceptional efficacy and nearly zero side effects. Old docs are more likely to know this, but new docs probably don’t. Thyroid hormones can be and have been overused by some of those docs and patients involved in weight control issues. Don’t do that, it causes prescribing trouble for those of us who do well on thyroid extract clinical trials, but can’t pass the official thyroid serum tests. Sean It’s not a matter of "passing" the TSH test. I was using double entendre to describe docs’ resistance to prescribing thyroid extract as an empirical treatment, when it can’t be AMA-justified with thyroid hormones blood tests. The interplay between pituitary/hypothalamic release of pulsatile TRH and TSH, thyroid release of triiodothyronine (T3) and thyroxine (T4), feedback suppression of TRH and TSH, and peripheral conversion from T3 to T4 is quite complex. (I assume that’s a typo, and you meant ‘conversion from T4 to T3′.)

Yep, sorry. T4 is deiodinated to T3. By giving you only the lower potency T4 in the synthetic product, your body can regulate conversion to the higher potency T3 as needed. That way you get a much more (I hate to use this word) natural balance of thyroid hormone since the body has at least partial control. This theory only works for low thyroid supply, not thyroid uptake disorders which are a suspect factor in non-blood-testable hypothyroidism with Low Body Temperature. This theory also does not work for Wilson’s Syndrome, described as a significant reduction of T4 to T3 conversion.

While there are people who do not perform peripheral conversion well, they probably aren’t that common. Wilson’s syndrome is the creation of Dr. Wilson and it is not supported by any scientific data. The symptoms could just as easily be labeled "candidiasis". There is a lot of variation in normal body temperature. To label everybody who runs on the cool end of the spectrum as having a "syndrome" creates an awful lot of sick people. Particularly since most people with "low" body temperature are young and healthy. There is a natural circadian rhythym to body temperature which is completely normal and very very common. If you measured a.m. body temperature in most healthy people, they would be diagnosed with "Wilson’s syndrome". [...] On the other hand, it is usually fairly simple to regulate the dose of synthetic T4 so that TSH, free T4, and free T3 are all within the range normally maintained by people without thyroid disease. But it turned out, not so simple as hoped. The practical problem as I understand it, is that exactly TSH suppressive doses of T4 are hard to maintain with temperature, activity, and diet changes by the patient. This has historically led to somewhat over-suppressive doses which then led to osteoporosis from sub-clinical -hyper-thyroidism. (And as I mentioned, it does not work for thyroid uptake disorders.)

Of course, you don’t get as good results from medication as you do from a healthy thyroid, but maintaining T4, T3, and TSH within normal limits isn’t that tough. It is certainly easier to do it with synthetic T4 than with thyroid extracts. There is no reason to assume that sub-clinical hyperthyroidism (iatrogenic would be a better description) from thyroid extracts is somehow better than closer control with synthetic T4. Additionally, the half life of the lower potency hormone is measured in days while the half life of the high potency hormone is measured in hours. People taking dried thyroid extracts frequently have transient hyperthyroid symptoms. How frequently? I’ll want to review any studies you wish to cite, but I expect that the transient symptoms are signs of changes in dose requirements. Due to the recent decades of desperation and litigation by weight control patients, docs and their group practice lawyers resist allowing patients to set their own thyroid extract dose. But I suggest that is an option which should be considered first, with occasional medical observation, to prevent long term osteoporosis especially in older women. If that doesn’t work well, thyroxine therapy is always a fallback treatment.

Switching to thyroxine after a woman (or for that matter a man) develops osteoporosis as a consequence of iatrogenic hyperthyroidism is too late. Yearly observation to maintain thyroid hormones within the normal range to _prevent_ osteoporosis is a much better strategy. Unfortunately, allowing people free access to abusable drugs, does not always mean that they will make the best long term choices. Many young women will smoke or stop using insulin for weight control. It is unlikely that they would carefully regulate thyroid hormone use to prevent osteoporosis. A young endocrinologist I saw in a large city had this notion that thyroid requirements aren’t at all seasonal. I can understand an GP/FP not knowing this, but how was that omitted from his med school endocrinology specialty? The endocrinologist stated that his evidence was his experience with his patient group. I suggested that his very comfortable upper middle class patients were rarely exposed to more than brief changes in temperature, summer or winter. And, of course, he was probably treating them with overly TSH-suppressive doses of thyroxine.

Thyroxine is no more suppressive than dried animal thyroid extracts. At least some autoregulation is possible with synthetic thyroxine. I don’t know that there are very many Americans of whatever income class who don’t have central heating, adequate (usually overadequate) caloric intake, and protective clothing so that they too are protected from more than brief changes in temperature. The endocrinologist that you mention is probably striving to maintain his patients so that they are not overly suppressed. Aggressive TSH suppression seems to be the goal of alternative practitioners and seems to be what you are advocating. The excessive suppression of TSH due to the higher level of T3 with the use of dried extracts may be a significant risk factor for osteoporosis. It also may not be a significant risk for the exact reason that you previously mentioned. Thyroid extract T3 content tends to warn the patient when taking too much.

Some people are more sensitive to excessive thyroid medication that others. There is no evidence that excessive dessicated thyroid extract is any better or any worse than excessive synthetic thyroid. However, it is easier for the clinician to avoid excessive thyroid dosing with the synthetic forms by taking advantage of the body’s autoregulation of peripheral thyroid conversion.

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Please also remember that the interconversion of T3/T4 is selenium dependent.

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As someone who had a goiter, I can’t believe what you just said. You mean that both the lack of iodine AND iodine toxicity are capable of causing a goiter? I never knew that and always assumed it was due to a lack of iodine. Also, what is "goitrogen"? I feel so lost! Thanks, Whitney Whitney, A lack of iodine will make the thyroid gland enlarge to try to improve the uptake of iodine. With too much iodine stored in the thyroid gland, the gland is damaged and this damage causes gland enlargement.

Which leads to the next question – what is the therapeutic range (index)? Is it easier to have too little or too much iodine? Considering the RDA is 150 mcg and the therapeutic dose is 6 mg, I’m thinking it’s a bit easier to come up short. But maybe a bit of math is in order. http://www.nutritionnewsfocus.com/archive/a2/NewIodRec.html So, how many mcg of iodine is ther in a teaspoon of salt? Well, at .006 to 0.01% KI and the molecular weight of KI, and assuming a teaspoon is 5 gm, about 37.5 mcg. With the RDA at 150 and the recommended maximum dose of 1100 and the toxic dose at 6 times that, one would have to eat less than an ounce to meat the RDA, about 5 ounces to get to the upper limit of safe and almost two pounds to get to a point where it has been shown to have a therapeutic affect on the thyroid. http://www.nutritionnewsfocus.com/archive/a2/NewIodRec.html However, on the other side, in normo-iodic children, median urinary clearance is about 100 mcg/l – so one would assume a replacement need of about that daily. This is consistent with the RDA. Under this set of parameters, it appears that the risk of iodine deficiency without supplementation exceeds the risk of iodine related hyperthyroidism associated with over dosing. Just math, Roger, just math. amp – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Goitrogens are a class of plant chemicals called glucosinolates that are probably produced to prevent fungal disease. Plant enzymes are needed to generate large amounts of the glucosinolates and cooking the food destroys these enzymes. Even in areas where human intake of these goitrogens is high, poor iodine intake is probably also needed to produce goiter. http://ace.orst.edu/info/extoxnet/faqs/natural/goi.htm With a good intake of iodine, goitrogens are not thought to pose much of a problem to human health. Iodine deficiency and iodine toxicity can both knock out the thyroid gland. This is the main reason why the U.S. stopped mandating that all salt sold had to have iodine in it. Thyroid problems can be one of the most difficult areas of human metabolism to deal with. I have tried to better understand this particular problem area to help many who have come to sci.med.nutrition because of overactive or underactive thyroids. There may be some dietary, supplement and/or herbal approaches that might help but I have never felt that I knew enough to really comment on this area.

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Whitney, A lack of iodine will make the thyroid gland enlarge to try to improve the uptake of iodine. With too much iodine stored in the thyroid gland, the gland is damaged and this damage causes gland enlargement. Goitrogens are a class of plant chemicals called glucosinolates that are probably produced to prevent fungal disease. Plant enzymes are needed to generate large amounts of the glucosinolates and cooking the food destroys these enzymes. Even in areas where human intake of these goitrogens is high, poor iodine intake is probably also needed to produce goiter. http://ace.orst.edu/info/extoxnet/faqs/natural/goi.htm With a good intake of iodine, goitrogens are not thought to pose much of a problem to human health. Iodine deficiency and iodine toxicity can both knock out the thyroid gland. This is the main reason why the U.S. stopped mandating that all salt sold had to have iodine in it. Thyroid problems can be one of the most difficult areas of human metabolism to deal with. I have tried to better understand this particular problem area to help many who have come to sci.med.nutrition because of overactive or underactive thyroids. There may be some dietary, supplement and/or herbal approaches that might help but I have never felt that I knew enough to really comment on this area. — Marty B. "You are what you eat." http://centernet.okstate.edu/nutrition/index.html

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What has iodide in salt got to do with fluoride in water supplies? They are both government regulated public health plans to control disease, but iodine nutrition is market implemented. Both are government mandates. Fluoride has been left to the individual states to mandate. Iodine was a Federal Government mandate first written into Federal Law in 1924. With this Federal Law, no salt sold in the U.S. could be sold without iodine added to it. That law has since been repealed. Why? Iodine toxicity. Sweden has now banned the addition of iron to flour. Why? Iron toxicity. In today’s U.S. market, selling salt with iodine is primarily market driven (some people will not buy the salt that does not have iodine added to it). Thyroid enlargement in the U.S., which was at one time primarily driven by iodine deficiency, is now primarily driven by iodine toxicity and/or goitrogen intake. Giving everybody in a country iodine or iron if they really do not need these minerals can end up causing more disease than what the Government mandate foresaw. I guess you could say that Big Brother does not always know what is best for us but if you try to tell Big Brother this, you are in for the fight of your life.

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Iodine was a Federal Government mandate first written into Federal Law in 1924. With this Federal Law, no salt sold in the U.S. could be sold without iodine added to it. That law has since been repealed. Why? Iodine toxicity. Sweden has now banned the addition of iron to flour. Why? Iron toxicity.

Thanks for that info. I didn’t know that. Giving everybody in a country iodine or iron if they really do not need these minerals can end up causing more disease than what the Government mandate foresaw. I guess you could say that Big Brother does not always know what is best for us but if you try to tell Big Brother this, you are in for the fight of your life.

Yes. Some people describe this by saying that do-gooder actions often have unforeseen consequences. But in your examples, the adverse effects are quite foreseeable.

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What has iodide in salt got to do with fluoride in water supplies? They are both government regulated public health plans to control disease, but iodine nutrition is market implemented.

Both are government mandates. Fluoride has been left to the individual states to mandate. Iodine was a Federal Government mandate first written into Federal Law in 1924. With this Federal Law, no salt sold in the U.S. could be sold without iodine added to it. That law has since been repealed. Why? Iodine toxicity. Sweden has now banned the addition of iron to flour. Why? Iron toxicity. In today’s U.S. market, selling salt with iodine is primarily market driven (some people will not buy the salt that does not have iodine added to it). Thyroid enlargement in the U.S., which was at one time primarily driven by iodine deficiency, is now primarily driven by iodine toxicity and/or goitrogen intake. Giving everybody in a country iodine or iron if they really do not need these minerals can end up causing more disease than what the Government mandate foresaw. I guess you could say that Big Brother does not always know what is best for us but if you try to tell Big Brother this, you are in for the fight of your life. — Marty B. "You are what you eat." http://centernet.okstate.edu/nutrition/index.html

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Vitamin B and Lithium

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Even though this post wasn’t addressed to me, I feel the urge to post a reply anyway. As a lurker to this newsgroup, I feel Lynda’s posts are expert advice given to people who post their problems and situations to this newsgroup looking for the support and reassurance that Lynda most often gives them. I think that these people, as well as myself, appreciate and enjoy Lynda’s posts. Your post towards Lynda was a completely unfair judgement of her role in this newsgroup as far as I’m concerned. That said, I’m going to go crawl back under my rock now. (((Lynda))) ~DaVe~

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Well Hello Dave and Welcome to ASDM, You seem to be a compulsive poster. It makes it hard for me to n-joy the 2 newsgroups because I don’t read well when I’m ill and there’s just too many of your postings. Are you obsessive-Compulsive or has that been considered? Even though this post wasn’t addressed to me, I feel the urge to post a reply anyway. As a lurker to this newsgroup, I feel Lynda’s posts are expert advice given to people who post their problems and situations to this newsgroup looking for the support and reassurance that Lynda most often gives them. I think that these people, as well as myself, appreciate and enjoy Lynda’s posts. Your post towards Lynda was a completely unfair judgement of her role in this newsgroup as far as I’m concerned. That said, I’m going to go crawl back under my rock now. (((Lynda))) ~DaVe~

Thank you for your kind words. It is not the first time I have been criticized <sigh and I am sure it won’t be the last. It’s okay though. I refuse to allow any person to have power over me. Please do not be hesitant about posting. I’m not <VBG. Yours, —

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Hi Heather, Welcome to our ngs. You seem to be a compulsive poster. It makes it hard for me to n-joy the 2 newsgroups because I don’t read well when I’m ill and there’s just too many of your postings. Are you obsessive-Compulsive or has that been considered?

Please put me in your kill file. If my posts bother you, just ignore them, okay? BTW, I am not OCD. I have BP2Mixed, URC, and Multiple Sclerosis. I post alot because I care….I reach out to others and have received more than I could have ever imagined. It takes time and effort to answer my emails and posts but I gladly do it. I conduct alot of medical research for people who write me. I am a medical professional. Peace,

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Heather – Lynda is most definitely not a compulsive poster. If you took a little time to read her posts, you’d see that she welcomes new folks, answers questions, and provides a great deal of support. If you don’t feel like reading her posts – don’t read ‘em. No one is forcing you. IMHO, you owe someone an apology. BTW, I do hope you feel better soon. Cynthia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You seem to be a compulsive poster. It makes it hard for me to n-joy the 2 newsgroups because I don’t read well when I’m ill and there’s just too many of your postings. Are you obsessive-Compulsive or has that been considered? authorized by Oatmeal the cat /_/ / . . / -{ . }- / _/ / —– —–

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authorized by Oatmeal the cat /_/ / . . / -{ . }- / _/ / —–

Dear Oatmeal’s Mom, Glad you are here and I’m sorry you aren’t feeling well. I think most people have problems with concentration, when ill. This works for me and might help you—when I’m not up to it, I take a break from the group or read only people I relate to; for instance, Lynda (well, a bunch more, too). Pretty easy to do it that way—unless one is a compulsive reader—smile. regards from, julie

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Amen. More Lyndas would make a more enjoyable, more accepting, and more understanding world to live in. Another Dave

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even though this post wasn’t addressed to me, I feel the urge to post a reply anyway. As a lurker to this newsgroup, I feel Lynda’s posts are expert advice given to people who post their problems and situations to this newsgroup looking for the support and reassurance that Lynda most often gives them. I think that these people, as well as myself, appreciate and enjoy Lynda’s posts. Your post towards Lynda was a completely unfair judgement of her role in this newsgroup as far as I’m concerned. That said, I’m going to go crawl back under my rock now. (((Lynda))) ~DaVe~

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Hi, Heather — I’m new here, but I’m jumping in because I am MASSIVELY grateful to Lynda for the info. she sent me when I arrived (and also to James, whose research she also forwarded to me). I’m sorry you’re having a hard time, and I certainly understand that people are different in what or who they connect with and gravitate towards. I tend to specifically LOOK for Lynda’s posts, also for James’ and for Keith’s (even though I’ve never directly communicated with either man — and I’m missing Keith’s posts right now). I was able to really use some of the info. gleaned from these people — took it to my therapy appt. + emailed recommended sites that I found helpful to my therapist, with his permission. Nobody knows it all – laymen OR pro’s – which is why it’s so helpful, I think, to pool our resources. I hope you’ll keep posting. As for other people’s posts (including mine), it’s kind of like TV – choose the channels that you find helpful and flip past those you don’t. Hope you don’t feel ‘flamed’ — these are just differences in taste and opinion. Best– Kate ~

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So you think Lynda my big sister is chatty, wait until my little sister Kathy gets back from the asylum, you will have no peace at all. Lynda and Kathy hate each other, and I don’t care for our mother. Our dog fang says "woof" to oatmeal, he likes oatmeal cookies. Vern, the only functional idiot in this dysfunctional family. Peace! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – authorized by Oatmeal the cat /_/ / . . / -{ . }- / _/ / —– —–

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Keep up the good work! — PBTrue

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You seem to be a compulsive poster. It makes it hard for me to n-joy the 2 newsgroups because I don’t read well when I’m ill and there’s just too many of your postings. Are you obsessive-Compulsive or has that been considered? Even though this post wasn’t addressed to me, I feel the urge to post a reply anyway. As a lurker to this newsgroup, I feel Lynda’s posts are expert advice given to people who post their problems and situations to this newsgroup looking for the support and reassurance that Lynda most often gives them. I think that these people, as well as myself, appreciate and enjoy Lynda’s posts. (((Lynda))) ~DaVe~

I concur with Dave - there have been times, when Lynda was the only person who even acknowledged my posts. I have always apreciated her care and advice (even when I didn’t take it). Also, when I’m in the right mood and have the time, I can make Lynda look like she doesn’t post hardly ever <g, so I’m damn sure not going to condem her for it. Please keep posting Lynda! — Tigger – http://TITAN.SFASU.EDU/~z_woodarddg/ bouncy, trouncy, flouncy, pouncy, fun, fun, fun, fun, FUN!!! Of course mental illness is all in your head, where the HELL else would it be?

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Lynda is very caring. I can barely get it together to post any of my feeling to this ng, but Lynda always takes the time to respond to me (if I’m not being too flakey) and I like having the email. Me…sometimes I can’t read every posting on every thread…sometimes I just don’t want to read what a specific person is writing…and I always avoid the log-rolling that goes on. So as to differentiate this from a normal log-rolling post, I think that it is good to have a person in the role of nurturer in this ng. Just my 1.5 cents Jim

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Hi Tim, I have just been in my local library looking at a book called ‘Depression source book’ by Brian B Quinn CSW PHD. In the book he says that it is probably a good idea for all patients taking lithium to take mega dose of b complex vitamins since lithium can interfere with absorption of these vitamins. This is the first time i have heard of this. No doubt some of our resident ‘experts’ such as James,Keith, and Lynda could provide us with some further information.

Thanks for asking Tim. I have alot of information on this topic. I will try to summarize for you. CAUTION: DO NOT take any supplements without consultation with your physician. The following information is offered as suggestions only. These doses have been suggested by various practitioners and may vary among individuals. Persons with BP illness tend to not absorb the B vitamins easily, and often have deficiencies of these vitamins (Nutritional Healiing, 2nd Ed. 1997 by James Balch M.D.). Lithium can cause nausea, vomiting, tremors, kidney dysfunction, and thyroid enlargement. The homeostasis of the body is then disrupted. Nutrients: Vitamin B complex 100 mg 3X/day good for a healthy nervous system. Vitamin B12 15 mg 2x/day (use sublingual form) used in making the myelin which is used for the production of nerve sheaths. Pantothenic acid (a B vitamin) 500 mg daily. The most potent anti-stress vitamin. Folic Acid (a B vitamin) 200 mg daily, found to be deficient in peopled with depression. Mutivitamin and mineral complex, 1 tablet daily with calcium and magnesium (1500 mg daily) has a calming effect. Needed for the nervous system. Zinc 50 mg daily, found to be deficient in people with depression. DO NOT EXCEED 100 mg day from all supplements. Vitamin C, 2000-50000 mg daily in DIVIDED doses. Needed for immune fucntion. It aids in preventing depression. L-Tyrosine, (an amino acid) 500 mg 2X/day. DO NOT TAKE WITH MILK. AVOID if taking an MAOI antidepressant. Take with water or juice on an empty stomach. Helps to stabilize mood swings. Deficiency can result in hyperactivity, anxiety, and poor brain function. Alleviates stress by boosting the production of norepinephrine (adrenalin). It also raises dopamine levels which influence moods. Taurine (an amino acid) 500 mg 3 X/day. An imortant antioxidant and immune regulator, necesssary for white blood cell activation and neurologica function. Use sublingual form. AVOID choline (B vitamin) and Ornithine and Arginine (amino acids ) as these substances may make symptoms worse. NOTE: Depression may be triggered by food allergies and sensitivities such as the following: Dairy products Caffeine Carbonated beverages Foods with falvorings, artificial colorings, preservatives etc. Sugar Foods high in saturated fats as they lead to sluggishness, slow thinking, and fatigue (french fries, hamburgers) —

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I have just been in my local library looking at a book called ‘Depression source book’ by Brian B Quinn CSW PHD. In the book he says that it is probably a good idea for all patients taking lithium to take mega dose of b complex vitamins since lithium can interfere with absorption of these vitamins. This is the first time i have heard of this. No doubt some of our resident ‘experts’ such as James,Keith, and Lynda could provide us with some further information. Tim

Response:

Category Categories: Thyroid Enlargement | No Comments »

A Day In The Life

Question:

+AD4-In article +ADw-6u4jit+ACQ-g3m+AEA-sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com+AD4-, +AD4-Diet Coke 1.12 ppm fluoride +AD4-Lipton Ice Tea 0.56 ppm fluoride So? It adds up to a reasonable amont for keeping my teeth, and more imporant my childrens’ teeth, in reasonable shape.

Did you read the original post? Obviously not. For your convenience, it’s here: http://www.bruha.com/fluoride/html/life.htm Regards, AS

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M. Eichen) writes: Thanks for the post! This is most interesting! I am a practicing dentist who rarely administers fluoride to patients who live in areas of municpal fluoridation, or grew up in those areas either. Dental assistants are always asking my "Why?" They think that a dentist who does not "give fluoride" is a strange bird. Now I can assure them that I am not. I will copy this and pass it around. Before you do that, I suggest checking the information in it. So these people get 8 mg a fluoride a day, eh? There must be some simple urine collection studies to back this up, then. Not.

(Snip) Anybody hopping up without those measurements should simply be ignored. They have a nice grant proposal, but they do not have science. Steve Harris, M.D.

That’s interesting, to say the least… Well, here is Dr.Harris, who suggests a post on the list re:the MedLine abstracts, then wants a clarification which also gets posted with official NRC/NAS/Department of Health figures from 1993(!) clearly stating that current (93) intake exceeds 6.5mg in optimally fluoridated areas…Further he is invited to research links on the matter, again, full of official Gov’t-agency figures, some of them directly leading to the document in question…You either have selective reading skills or you do have a different agenda here… Let me explain something to you. I have no interest in having a war with anyone on this matter. I have researched this issue for many 100’s of hours, maybe 1000’s, and will continue to do so. (By the way, so have many, many other people, at great expense. The ones you might recognize have even been mentioned, such as Dr.Albert Schatz and Dr.Phyllis Mullenix.) I have also no interest in responding to the same old ignorant remarks over and over on this list. What I am offering you is a gift, and you, as well as a few others here seem to abuse it. Here is how a spirit of open-ness and co-operation might help solve a problem: I received an e-mail yesterday from someone in New York, apparently in quite a bit of distress about his condition, asking for help. From the cc’s I could tell that this e-mail was also sent to you, as well as other names I recognize from this list: (snip) In this particular e-mail: (snip) Hello my name is mike I am a 32-year-old alcoholic male that hasn’t drank alcohol since 4/27/98 I am 5′8 202 lbs. Medium bone structure Over weight and of the Anglo-Saxon race and reside in an industrial area of Brooklyn living in an illegal basement apartment with no air or hot water. Currently on medications: .2 mg colonidine for high blood pressure once a day maintaining 140/90 1 to 2 mg xanax per day for panic disorder 10 mg ambien for sleep disorder 800 mg motrin for back and neck pain per day 50 mg Aterax per day for anxiety 1. multi-vitamin per day

(Sideline Question : Do you know how much fluoride is in any or all of those medications, added on to fascilitate faster "transport"?) (snip) I have been feeling weak all the time, I have short span memory loss problems, panic attacks, anxiety, and having episodes of deadly rage. It feels as if I have althritits of the legs and feet., SEEING A CHIROPRACTOR 3 TIMES A WEEK ALSO SEEING A PSYCHOLOGIST 2 TIMES PER WEEK AND A PSYCHIATRIST 1 EVERY TWO WEEKS AND HAVE BEEN ATTENDING AA MEETINGS. (snip) Nutritional —- oatmeal every morning—lunch sometimes skip—–dinner ham and cheese sandwich—-no vegetables and fruit. Habits—-I drink 6-9 litters of pepsi per day from morning to night, original pepsi with caffeine & sugar) . Smoke 2 packs Newport perday No exercise just moderate walking

(Snip) Now, Mike obviously is not into healthy living here, to say the least. When I read this about Pepsi, I didn’t know if he was for real or not. I mean, really, 6-9 litres? That’s an incredible amount. However, then I was reminded of several of my friends who had kicked the habit and then seemed to indulge heavily in either colas or coffee…His list of cc’s suggested to me that he really had no other agenda here, but just needed info. I don’t know if any of you on the cc have bothered to answer and what advice you gave, but judging from some posts, the thought kind of scares me… Now, if you would have informed yourself properly, you would have seen that Mike is consuming 6-9 mgs of fluoride here every day, just from the Pepsi alone! This alone could be responsible for his feeling weak all the time, short term memory loss, as well as Arthritis-type pains, according to many(!) published studies documenting the more than 100 adverse health effects of fluoride, documented at much lower levels. I’m not an expert here, as far as medical advice is concerned, and would not at all feel qualified to give any, but I could have given any one of you some data regarding the above fluoride dosage. This is the type of co-operation that needs to happen. I am an expert on fluoride issues and offer my research to you and anyone else on this list. You are supposed to be an expert on health and medicine, are you not? It is YOUR job to be PROPERLY informed on these issues, for if you’re not – you might be giving out possibly the wrong advice. What state are we in, if I have a much greater knowledge than you on this, or so it seems? And people actually pay you money for yours, and trust you, just because you happen to have a MD or DDS or whatever attached to your name? My research should enable you and others to make more informed decisions, so that you can fulfill your mandate more appropriately! What has taken me and many others hours and hours to accumulate, you can now browse through in an evening – free of charge. If you need anything else or have questions, I might even be able to put you in touch with original researchers, scientists, chemists, whoever might be the expert on the problem you are faced with, if it has anything that could be associated with fluorides. That’s MY expertise. It needs to come to a state of co-op here, for the common good of humanity, not wallets. Sadly, the agencies who are supposed to assist in this as well, such as the FDA, PHS or the EPA, as well as ADA and AMA, often have different agendas, driven by other considerations, and are largely to blame for this state. Don’t believe me? Have you researched the fluoride history? Have you seen the Dean data water fluoridation is based on? Do you know of the fraud studies done at the University of Rochester? Do you know original studies and have compared them to abstracts used by the ADA to promote water-fluoridation? Do you want to see some de-classified papers? Do you know how the fraudulent EPA MCL was set at 4ppm? Want to talk to the union representing the scientists at EPA about it? Want to talk to a scientist involved in the original research for the Atomic Bomb project? Want to find out official dose statistics? Need a study regarding neurotoxicity? That’s why I’m here and that’s what I have to offer. Find out about it, please! DOSAGE IS OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE! We are currently approaching 8mg/day in optimally fluoridated areas, compared to much less when this whole thing started. Healthy people will eliminate 50%, that means 4mg gets stored and accumulates in bone, teeth, soft tissue, etc… Do YOU know what happens to the body and the brain at 4mg/day in immediate or long term effects? It is not my intention to blame any one profession here, but to make people aware of the problem, so it can be dealt with. The issues are complicated and involved: Food labeling is required, water – fluoridation must be stopped, proper education offered for health care/dental professionals/nutritionists, health advisories must be issued for people with renal impairment, low calcium intake, etc…We need to co-operate – work together – in order for this to be properly addressed. Please act responsibly. Please don’t give out any more ignorant advice. You become part of the problem, not a solution. I will assist in any way possible. Regards, AS http://www.bruha.com/fluoride/html/_fluoride_links.htm PS: If any of you are willing and able to give this man Mike advice, please respond to the e-mail address above, for I don’t have the time to check this list frequently. I’ll forward his post to you. He included blood test results.

Response:

Do you know of the fraud studies done at the University of Rochester? This is incorrect information. I have read those studies and they do not implicate fluoride in any way. Cheers, Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S.

Dr. El Ignoro, I challenge you to post the ones you have read. Otherwise you

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Re: Water fluoridation – The Truth The following important scanning/transmission errors was brought to my attention: #5/8 Paragraph: In his letter transmitting the final report of the Committee to EPA, Surgeon General Koop said that arthritis and CSF both begin to occur simultaneously, when fluoride consumption exceeds 0 mg/day. He also added the caveat that it takes more than 20 years to cause these effects. His assertion differed from the conclusion of the National Academy of Science, which also was a source of advice to EPA on this matter. The NAS, according to EPA in the proposed regulation, reported that it takes only 10 years to cause CSF at a dose of 20 mg/day. EPA, however, decided in the proposed regulation to use Dr. Koop’s numbers: should read:(IMPORTANT!!!) In his letter transmitting the final report of the Committee to EPA, Surgeon General Koop said that arthritis and CSF both begin to occur simultaneously, when fluoride consumption exceeds *20* mg/day. He also added the caveat that it takes more than 20 years to cause these effects. His assertion differed from the conclusion of the National Academy of Science, which also was a source of advice to EPA on this matter. The NAS, according to EPA in the proposed regulation, reported that it takes only 10 years to cause CSF at a dose of 20 mg/day. EPA, however, decided in the proposed regulation to use Dr. Koop’s numbers: Also #5/8 Sorry for any confusion this might have caused. Besides the occasional run-on sentence and the transmission layout discrepancy, everything else seems to be truthfully reproduced. Regards, AS A new version will be sent, as to avoid confusion, for dosage discussion is of utmost importance. Old one will be cancelled.

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In 1951, the US Public Health Service had a secret meeting with the American Dental Association to discuss the promotion of water fluoridation. it was revealed in 1961 by the American Dental Association that the main speaker at this meeting, Dr. Bull[of the state Board of Health], did not know that the meeting was recorded. The meeting disclosed denying the people the right to vote and that the poisonous results of fluoride to the body were unknown and not discussed. Copies may be obtained from the Main Library, Departmentof Health, Education and Welfare, Washington DC. The library file number is RK-301C76-1951. For some excerpts from this meeting: see: http://www.hans.org/flunews2.htm

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Hi Steven, I saw this article and I agree with you. It is so filled up with misconceptions that I did not know where to start. Thanks for your patient review! Cheers, Joel Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excerpts from silly article about the Manhattan project and fluorine: Fluoride was the key chemical in atomic bomb production, according to the documents. Massive quantities of fluoride – millions of tons – were essential for the manufacture of bomb-grade uranium and plutonium for nuclear weapons throughout the Cold War. One of the most toxic chemicals known, the documents reveal that fluoride rapidly emerged as the leading chemical health hazard of the U.S. atomic bomb program – both for workers and for nearby communities.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ABOUT THE AUTHORS: Joel Griffiths is a medical writer who lives in New York City. Author of a book on radiation hazards, he has contributed numerous articles to medical and popular publications. Chris Bryson, who holds a masters degree in Journalism, is an independent reporter with ten years’ professional experience. He has worked with BBC Radio and Public Television in New York, plus numerous publications, including the Christian Science Monitor and the Mansfield Guardian.

Excerpts from silly article about the Manhattan project and fluorine: Fluoride was the key chemical in atomic bomb production, according to the documents. Massive quantities of fluoride – millions of tons – were essential for the manufacture of bomb-grade uranium and plutonium for nuclear weapons throughout the Cold War. One of the most toxic chemicals known, the documents reveal that fluoride rapidly emerged as the leading chemical health hazard of the U.S. atomic bomb program – both for workers and for nearby communities.

Comment: Actually elemental fluorine gas (F2) is one of the most toxic chemicals known, not fluoride (F- ion). They are different things, just as one would suspect from the different spelling, even if one was a scientifically uneducated newspaper reporter. There’s an "n" in fluorine– see? It takes 5 or 10 grams of fluoride to kill you, and I promise that this is hardly one of the most toxic chemicals known. Fluorine gas is dangerous for two reasons. The first is that is an incredibly powerful oxidant (the strongest known), and causes direct damage to organics (flesh) by reacting with them. Fluorine is also highly corrosive to water because it produces hydrofluoric acid on contact with water (as when breathed), and hydrofluoric acid is a flesh penetrating corrosive agent which causes burns and enzyme destruction. Fluorine gas was indeed critical to the Manhattan project. Uranium 235 is produced by running the volatile compound uranium hexafluoride (HEX — UF6) though gas centrifuges. UF6 is made by reacting uranium oxides or metal with F2 (fluorine gas). However, the reaction equilibrium insures that no sample of UF6 will ever be pure, for pure UF6 also spontaneously breaks down to small amounts of UF4 (a solid) and fluorine gas, F2. The F2 is corrosive to standard pipes, and the reaction above necessitated handing UF6 gas as though it was F2. This in turn led to the nickel technology which is the key to fluorine gas handling today (previously fluorine had to handled in platinum plated equipment). None of which has a thing to do with fluoride toxicity. UF6 is toxic because it reacts quickly with water (the water in your lungs) to produce– you guessed it: hydrofluoric acid. Hydrofluoric acid (HF), is a lipid soluble poison which is many times more poisonous than simple fluoride ion. Confusing the two is bad science. Standard journlism but bad science. The first lawsuits against the U.S. A-bomb program were not over radiation, but over fluoride damage, the documents reveal.<< Comment: Actually, they reveal no such thing. If a chemical was released into the air, it cannot have been an ordinary fluoride (UF6 would surely not have been released–it’s radioactive and there would have been hell to pay from that). If it contained fluorine and was a gas (like UF6 or HF), it was something much more hazardous than garden variety metal salt fluorides used to fluoridate drinking water. When "medical writers" start talking about "fluoride released into the atmosphere" (as this article does) they only make me think of the old saw about journalism being that profession whose buisiness it is to explain that which it personally does not understand. Read a few newspaper articles about anything at all which you personally know something about, and you’ll see what I mean. The impact can be seen, literally, in the smiles of our children. Large numbers of U.S. young people – up to 80 percent in some cities – now have dental fluorosis, the first visible sign of excessive fluoride exposure, according to the U.S. National Research Council.<< Comment: 80% in one city. Averages in other cities are small. A very deceptive statement. Fluorosis has been increasing in incidence in past years. That does not mean it is epidemic. Less known to the public is that fluoride also accumulates in bones – "The teeth are windows to what’s happening in the bones," explains Paul Connett, Professor of Chemistry at St. Lawrence (N.Y.) University.<< Comment Goodness. All these children with white spots on their bones. The mind reels. In recent years, pediatric bone specialists have expressed

alarm about an increase in stress fractures among U.S. young people. Connett and other scientists are concerned that fluoride – linked to bone damage by studies since the 1930’s – may be a contributing factor.<< Comment: Scaremongering. Where’s the beef? "Information was buried," concludes Dr. Phyllis Mullenix,

former head of toxicology at Forsyth Dental Center in Boston, and now a critic of fluoridation. Animal studies Mullenix and co-workers conducted at Forsyth in the early 1990’s indicated that fluoride was a powerful central nervous system (CNS) toxin, and might adversely affect human brain functioning, even at low doses. << Comment: "Might?" "Even at low doses?" None of this is justified from the work, which subjected rats to 75 – 120 ppm fluoride (!), a concentration 75 to 100 times that in fluoridated drinking water, and a dose in mg/kg for the rat of 9 – 15 mg/kg per day, which is 90 to 150 times total human exposure even in high fluoride areas (this is due to the fact that rats drink more water per kg than humans). The work must in best case be repeated before it can be taken seriously. Even when it is repeated, its relevance for all but seriously fluoride poisoned humans is dubious. (New epidemiological

evidence from China adds support, showing a correlation between low-dose fluoride exposure and diminished I.Q. in children.)<< Comment: Somebody on this newspaper must read Chinese. The abstract of this paper says no such thing, and indeed makes no sense at all. I am unable to evaluate this claim, and regard it as hearsay. Mullenix’s results were published in 1995, in a

reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal.<< Comment: And criticized in the same journal. See the commentary: Neurotoxicol Teratol 1995 Nov-Dec;17(6):685-8) After reviewing the [declassified Manhattan project memos on

possible CNS toxicity of UF6], Mullenix declared herself "flabbergasted." She went on, "how could I be told by NIH that fluoride has no central nervous system effects when these documents were sitting there all the time?" << Comment: A memo from 1944 in a government file amounts to hearsay, not scientific evidence. In any case, the NIH does not make grant decisions (except in a few cases). As a rule, grants are peer reviewed. Fluoride may or may not cause CNS effects, but UF6 might well do things in the CNS that fluoride cannot. Indeed, acute UF6 toxicity is not due to "fluoride," but rather to hydrofluoric acid. Both UF6 and HF penetrate to places (such as the brain) where fluoride has more difficulty penetrating. The author of the 1944 CNS research proposal was Dr. Harold

C. Hodge, at the time chief of fluoride toxicology studies for the University of Rochester division of the Manhattan Project. Nearly fifty years later at the Forsyth Dental Center in Boston, Dr. Mullenix was introduced to a gently ambling elderly man brought in to serve as a consultant on her CNS research – Harold C. Hodge. By then Hodge had achieved status emeritus as a world authority on fluoride safety. "But even though he was supposed to be helping me," says Mullenix, "he never once mentioned the CNS work he had done for the Manhattan Project."<< Comment: Maybe he thought it was still classified, and since it was work on Uf6 and not F-, perhaps he thought it was not relevant. Indeed, perhaps he knew something that Dr. Mullinex did not. Dr. Antonio Noronha, an NIH scientific review advisor familiar with Dr. Mullenix’s grant request, says her proposal was rejected by a scientific peer-review group. He terms her claim of institutional bias against fluoride CNS research "farfetched" he adds, "We strive very hard at NIH to make sure politics does not enter the picture."<< Comment: It is a fact that NIH grants are peer-reviewed. That means (in short) that the government only decides how much money is available, not who gets it. Who gets it is decided by unpaid committees of non-government scientists in the field (one’s "peers"– that’s what the word means). If Dr. Mullenex thinks her grant was rejected by the NIH, she needs to learn about the process. It may not be fair, but it’s the best anyone has been able to come up with. Steve Harris, M.D. Chung Hua Liu Hsing Ping Hsueh Tsa Chih 1994 Oct;15(5):296-298 [Effects of high iodine and high fluorine on children's intellig- ence and the metabolism of iodine and fluorine]. [Article in Chinese] Yang Y, Wang X, Guo X Shandong Provincial Institute of Endemic Disease Control, Jinan. An investigation on children’s intelligence and the metabolism of iodine and fluorine in high iodine and fluorine regions was carried out. The results were as follows. In high iodine and high fluorine areas, the thyroid enlargement prevalence rate among inhabitants and that among children were 3.8% and 29.8%, respe- ctively. The dental fluorosis prevalence rate among inhabitants and that among children was 35.48% and 72.9%, respectively. The pupils’ average intelligence quotient (IQ) was 76.67 +/- 7.75, slightly lower than the control point, but that … read more »

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Additional notes by Darlene Sherrell (Darlene Sherrell not only discovered that the original Roholm/Hodge safety figures had been misc-alculated and then persisted with the help of Dr.Bob Carton and Senator Bob Graham in her efforts to get the National Research Council (NAS/NRC) to adopt the new figures – which had even been corrected by Hodge himself in 1979-but also managed to change the law in Michigan, giving people the right to vote on fluoridation. Michigan was the first state in the US to repeal their mandatory fluoridation law. – AS) Harold C. Hodge and the U.S. Army Dr. Hodge is deceased. However, in 1979 his chapter in a book titled "Continuing Evaluation of the Use of Fluorides" set the record straight. With regard to the "safe" dosage of fluoride for

fact about dental fluorosis is this: no safe established daily intake exists, i.e., the maximal amount in mg fluoride which consumed daily does NOT produce cosmetically damaging extensive white areas or brown stain in some individuals has not been fixed." In the same publication, Dr. Hodge also corrected his figures for crippling skeletal fluorosis. In his calculations made during the early 1950s it appears, although not spelled out, that Hodge had neglected to convert pounds to kilograms. As a result, most reviews which contain the "crippling daily dose of fluoride," including the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services 1991 document, Review of Fluoride: Benefits andRisks, as well as the current Recommended Dietary Allowances (RDA) and the new Dietary Reference Intakes (DRI) — another document from the Institute of Medicine — use 20-80 mg/day figures. (Although these documents refer to Hodge, and the first two specifically refer to Hodge 1979, they completely ignore Hodge’s 1979 correction of the older erroneous figures.) Sandra Schlicker, study director for the DRI, has acknowledged her understanding of Hodge’s error, as well as the correction in 1979; yet, offers no explanation for using the older erroneous figures. In addition, this latest report dismisses the correction made by another NAS/NRC panel in 1993, falsely claiming the corrected figures for "Crippling" were meant to apply only to the earlier non-crippling stages of the disease. The bottom line is this: At currently reported intake levels, excess fluoride from multiple sources has surpassed the quantity known to cause serious adverse health effects within about forty years. (i.e., 5 mg/day will cause crippling deformities of the spine and major joints) Within about twenty years, with a daily intake of 5 mg, the symptoms to be expected include chronic joint pain as well as brittle bones. Knowing full well that five milligrams of fluoride daily would be expected to produce phase 3 crippling skeletal fluorosis in the average individual after about 40 years, the committee has determined that 10 milligrams of fluoride daily is "tolerable." The question, "Tolerable to whom?" remains unanswered. More about the Army Although facilities had been constructed to provide fluoride in the drinking water system at Ft. Detrick, key components corroded to the point that the system was shut down. Reinstating fluoridation became subject to regulations involving an environmental assessment. On 11 December 1996 Commander, Colonel Henry O. Tuell, III, wrote toU.S. Army Medical Command, Fort Sam Houston, Texas. In this memo Colonel Tuell states: "…recent research and findings regarding efficacy of fluoridation and the adverse health effects, could be serious." In other words, drinking fluoridated water may be unsafe. As yet, the Army post at Fort Detrick, (Frederick, Maryland) remains unfluoridated.

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ABOUT THE AUTHORS: Joel Griffiths is a medical writer who lives in New York City. Author of a book on radiation hazards, he has contributed numerous articles to medical and popular publications. Chris Bryson, who holds a masters degree in Journalism, is an independent reporter with ten years’ professional experience. He has worked with BBC Radio and Public Television in New York, plus numerous publications, including the Christian Science Monitor and the Mansfield Guardian.

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Part2) Much of the proof of fluoride’s safety in low doses rests on the postwar work performed by the University of Rochester, in anticipation of lawsuits against the bomb program for human injury. Fluoride and the Cold War Delegating fluoride safety studies to the University of Rochester was not surprising. During World War II the federal government had become involved, for the first time, in large scale funding of scientific research at government-owned labs and private colleges. Those early spending priorities were shaped by the nation’s often-secret military needs. The prestigious upstate New York college, in particular, had housed a key wartime division of the Manhattan Project, studying the health effects of the new "special materials," such as uranium, plutonium, beryllium and fluoride, being used to make the atomic bomb. That work continued after the war, with millions of dollars flowing from the Manhattan Project and its successor organization, the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC). (Indeed, the bomb left an indelible imprint on all U.S. science in the late 1940’s and 50’s. Up to 90% of federal funds for university research came from either the Defense Department or the AEC in this period, according to Noam Chomsky’s 1996 book "The Cold War and the University.") The University of Rochester medical school became a revolving door for senior bomb program scientists. Postwar faculty included Stafford Warren, the top medical officer of the Manhattan Project, and Harold Hodge, chief of fluoride research for the bomb program. But this marriage of military secrecy and medical science bore deformed offspring. The University of Rochester’s classified fluoride studies code-named Program F — were conducted at its Atomic Energy Project (AEP), a top-secret facility funded by the AEC and housed in Strong Memorial Hospital. It was there that one of the most notorious human radiation experiments of the Cold War took place, in which unsuspecting hospital patients were injected with toxic doses of radioactive plutonium. Revelation of this experiment in a Pulitzer prize-winning account by Eileen Welsome led to a 1995 U.S. Presidential investigation, and a multimillion-dollar cash settlement for victims. Program F was not about children’s teeth. It grew directly out of litigationagainst the bomb program, and its main purpose was to furnish scientific ammunition which the government and its nuclear contractors could use to defeat lawsuits for human injury. Program F’s director was none other than Harold C. Hodge, who had led the Manhattan Project investigation of alleged human injury in the New Jersey fluoride-pollution incident. Program F’s purpose is spelled out in a classified 1948 report. It reads: "To supply evidence useful in the litigation arising from an alleged loss of a fruit crop several years ago, a number of problems have been opened. Since excessive blood fluoride levels were reported in human residents of the same area, our principal effort has been devoted to describing the relationship of blood fluorides to toxic effects." The litigation referred to, of course, and the claims of human injury were against the bomb program and its contractors. Thus, the purpose of Program F was to obtain evidence useful in litigation against the bomb program. The research was being conducted by the defendants. The potential conflict of interest is clear. If lower dose ranges were found hazardous by Program F, it might have opened the bomb program and its contractors to lawsuits for injury to human health, as well as public outcry. Comments lawyer Kittrell: "This and other documents indicate that the University of Rochester’s fluoride research grew out of the New Jersey lawsuits and was performed in anticipation of lawsuits against the bomb program for human injury. Studies undertaken for litigation purposes by the defendants would not be considered scientifically acceptable today," adds Kittrell, "because of their inherent bias to prove the chemical safe." Unfortunately, much of the proof of fluoride’s safety rests on the work performed by Program F Scientists at the University of Rochester. During the postwar period that university emerged as the leading academic center for establishing the safety of fluoride, as well as its effectiveness in reducing tooth decay, according to Dental School spokesperson William H.Bowen, M.D. The key figure in this research, Bowen said, was Harold C. Hodge — who also became a leading national proponent of fluoridating public drinking water. Program F’s interest in water fluoridation was not just "to counteract the local fear of fluoride on the part of residents," as Hodge had earlier written. The bomb program needed human studies, as they had needed human studies for plutonium, and adding fluoride to public water supplies provided one opportunity. The A-Bomb Program and Water Fluoridation Bomb-program scientists played a prominent — if unpublicized — role in the nation’s first-planned water fluoridation experiment, in Newburgh, New York. The Newburgh Demonstration Project is considered the most extensive study of the health effects of fluoridation, supplying much of the evidence that low doses are safe for children’s bones, and good for their teeth. Planning began in 1943 with the appointment of a special New York State Health Department committee to study the advisability of adding fluoride to Newburgh’s drinking water. The chairman of the committee was Dr. Hodge, then chief of fluoride toxicity studies for the Manhattan Project. Subsequent members included Henry L. Barnett, a captain in the Project’s Medical section, and John W. Fertig, in 1944 with the U.S. Office of Scientific Research and Development, the Pentagon group which sired the Manhattan Project. Their military affiliations were kept secret: Hodge was described as a pharmacologist, Barnett as a pediatrician. Placed in charge of the Newburgh project was David B. Ast, chief dental officer of the State Health Department. Ast had participated in a secret wartime conference on fluoride held by the Manhattan Project, and later worked with Dr. Hodge on the Project’s investigation of human injury in the New Jersey incident, according to once-secret memos. The committee recommended that Newburgh be fluoridated. It also selected the types of medical studies to be done, and "provided expert guidance" for the duration of the experiment. The key question to be answered was: "Are there any cumulative effects — beneficial or otherwise, on tissues and organs other than the teeth — of long-continued ingestion of such small concentrations…?" According to the declassified documents, this was also key information sought by the bomb program, which would require long-continued exposure of workers and communities to fluoride throughout the Cold War. In May 1945, Newburgh’s water was fluoridated, and over the next ten years its residents were studied by the State Health Department. In tandem, Program F conducted its own secret studies, focusing on the amounts of fluoride Newburgh citizens retained in their blood and tissues — the information sought by the bomb program: "Possible toxic effects of fluoride were in the forefront of consideration," the advisory committee stated. Health Department personnel cooperated, shipping blood and placenta samples to the Program F team at the University of Rochester. The samples were collected by Dr. David B. Overton, the Department’s chief of pediatric studies at Newburgh. The final report of the Newburgh Demonstration Project, published in 1956 in the Journal of the American Dental Association, concluded that "small concentrations" of fluoride were safe for U.S. citizens. The biological proof — "based on work performed … at the University of Rochester Atomic Energy Project" — was delivered by Dr. Hodge. Today, news that scientists from the atomic bomb program secretly shaped and guided the Newburgh fluoridation experiment, and studied the citizen’s blood and tissue samples, is greeted with incredulity. "I’m shocked — beyond words," said present-day Newburgh Mayor Audrey Carey, commenting on these reporters’ findings. "It reminds me of the Tuskegee experiment that was done on syphilis patients down in Alabama." As a child in the early 1950’s, Mayor Carey was taken to the old firehouse on Broadway in Newburgh, which housed the Public Health clinic. There, doctors from the Newburgh fluoridation project studied her teeth, and a peculiar fusion of two finger bones on her left hand she had been born with. Today, adds Carey, her granddaughter has white dental-fluorosis marks on her front teeth. Mayor Carey wants answers from the government about the secret historyof fluoride, and the Newburgh fluoridation experiment. "I absolutely want to pursue it," she said. "It is appalling to do any kind of experimentation and study without people’s knowledge and permission." Contacted by these reporters, the director of the Newburgh experiment, David B. Ast, says he was unaware Manhattan Project scientists were involved. "If I had known, I would have been certainly investigating why, and what the connection was," he said. Did he know that blood and placenta samples from Newburgh were being sent to bomb program researchers at the University of Rochester? "I was not aware of it," Ast replied. Did he recall participating in the Manhattan Project’s secret wartime conference on fluoride in January 1944, or going to New Jersey with Dr. Hodge to investigate human injury in the du Pont cases as secret memos state? He said he had no recollection of these events. A spokesperson for the University of Rochester Medical Center, Bob Loeb, confirmed that blood and tissue samples from Newburgh had … read more »

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The following article exposes the biggest on-going medical experiment ever carried out by the United States Government on an unsuspecting population. Although commissioned by the Christian Science Monitor in early Spring of 1997, it has not yet been published. Readers are invited to inquire when publication can be expected, by calling the Christian Science Monitor at 1-800-288-7090. . . . . . Fluoride, Teeth, and the Atomic Bomb by Joel Griffiths and Chris Bryson

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small people!!

Question:

In a reply to a post awhile back someone stated that only 3 people had noticed the tongue pierce they had in a 9 week period!! They went on to say that all the people were short (I always say small…it’s not as offensive!!). Anyway I have had the same experience, the only people who notice my tongue are small…I am 6′3"!! Any others out there noticed this phenomenon?? James

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Why do you think children always notice? (unless, of course, you find yourself shorter than the children you encounter)…Go into a day care center one day, walk into a classroom of kids, and say hello…They’ll be playing doctor with you in no time ^_^ (open your mouth, stick your tongue out, and say ah!!). SuperJen ICQ UIN# 2700926 "All my plans fell through my hands | Who is my ecstasy? They fell through my hands… | Who pulls me apart All my dreams it suddenly seems | And tears into me? EMPTY." | –the cranberries | "Empty" |

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Hmm, maybe its because you have to look down at someone shorter to make eye contact and they can see the top of your tounge at that angle….. WAK

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In a reply to a post awhile back someone stated that only 3 people had noticed the tongue pierce they had in a 9 week period!! They went on to say that all the people were short (I always say small…it’s not as offensive!!). Anyway I have had the same experience, the only people who notice my tongue are small…I am 6′3"!! Any others out there noticed this phenomenon?? Why do you think children always notice? (unless, of course, you find yourself shorter than the children you encounter)…Go into a day care center one day, walk into a classroom of kids, and say hello…They’ll be playing doctor with you in no time ^_^ (open your mouth, stick your tongue out, and say ah!!). SuperJen

I figured it was because children tend to rely more on their sense of sight when they talk to others than adults… ( ever notice many kids will stare at you when you are speaking with them, I believe thats partially due to their not having developed the ability to concentrate on multiple things, and because they are still discovering things and have a bit more curiousity than adults… they don’t really understand inflection yet, and sometimes need facial gestures to understand what and how you are saying something…) I also think it has to do with a child not having built up a facade yet…. Remember kids also openly point and yell it outloud when someone forgets to zip a fly… or when if someone has bad breath.. while we might tolorate it for a bit and not mention it.. a child will make all sorts of gestures, faces and certainly vocalize it… Kids are great… kids are real… Kids aren’t as likely to hold back… but the fact that they will ask about or comment about seeing a tongue piercing doesn’t mean they notice them more than an adult… just that they are less inclined to repress their thoughts about it… Ps… I have never had a child give me a bad reaction about mine… at first I never thought about what I would have to say if a child asked me.. until I got cornered one day by a 5 year old… and I told her it was a tic-tac… a few weeks later she asked me why I still have a tic-tac.. and then said " Thats like the Wonka Gobstobber " ( The Everlasting Gobstopper in Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory )…. All these little kids being desensitized to this piercing…. I can only imagine what the next generation is going to do to be " extreme " Troy

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What I’ve noticed is that both short people (ie kids) and tall people notice it the most (ie giants). I am 5′2" so not very tall. And remarks about it have ranged from "Why did you do that" to "Whoa, cool, did that hurt?" The one hat upset me the most was the day I was at work and a little girl noticed it over the counter. She curled up her nose and asked her mother why someone would do something "stupid like that" when I told her what it was. Her mother than proceeded to turn away from me completely and ask for help from another girl. That hurt, but when you think about it you realize that people are still raising intolerant children in this day and age and you shudder to think about the future. — Madness takes its toll, please have exact change.

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I noticed this too when I had the top of my head taattooed. I am tall, 6ft. 5 in., very few people would notice when they approached me, it was only when they approached me while I was sitting down, that I received some comments.

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[...] I figured it was because children tend to rely more on their sense of sight when they talk to others than adults… ( ever notice many kids will stare at you when you are speaking with them, I believe thats partially due to their not having developed the ability to concentrate on multiple things, and because they are still discovering things and have a bit more curiousity than adults… they don’t really understand inflection yet, and sometimes need facial gestures to understand what and how you are saying something…)

Heh, well…then after we say hello to some cute day care kiddies, let’s go round ourselves up some short adults…and I mean short, cuz I’m only 5 feet tall…and pay our respects…Afterwards, we can give them a survey…"Question 1: Did you notice anything weird?"; "Question 2: Did you notice anything interesting?"; "Question 3: Are you turned on?"…oops! But with the staring thing…I think children generally stop ’staring’ after the first encounter or so…I mean, yeah, the first time you meet a child, s/he’s likely to really check you out…cuz you’re someone totally new to him/her…and adults would blatantly stare too, if they weren’t ruled by something called manners…so we just have to chop our stares into stealthy glances or catch our victims when they’re not paying attention ^_^ (and it’s always thrilling to meet that person who says s/he notices *everything*)… And I would say that that’s another thing…that children are less contained…they don’t feel embarrassed or self-conscious for staring at someone, or for loudly pointing our something seems weird to them, for that matter (One of my friends, when she was younger, she was in a store with her mom and she spotted a man with a goiter (thyroid enlargement due to iodine deficiency); she alerted her mom to it both gesturally (by pointing) and audibly, as she thought that man had swallowed a ball that got lodged in his throat!) After a couple of encounters with children…you find yourself having to find ways to get them to look at you…I mean, my sibs (8 and 11) avoid eye contact with me when I speak to them…well, maybe that’s b/c they’re intimidated by li’l ol’ me…but, whatever!… I also think it has to do with a child not having built up a facade yet…. Remember kids also openly point and yell it outloud when someone forgets to zip a fly… or when if someone has bad breath.. while we might tolorate it for a bit and not mention it.. a child will make all sorts of gestures, faces and certainly vocalize it…

….while the embarrassed parent tries to stifle the child…"shhhhhhh!" Kids are great… kids are real… Kids aren’t as likely to hold back… but the fact that they will ask about or comment about seeing a tongue piercing doesn’t mean they notice them more than an adult… just that they are less inclined to repress their thoughts about it…

Aw, come on…When I was volunteering at a day care center…none of the adults in the classroom had taken any notice until one of the kids that had noticed a shiny ‘pin’ in my tongue was hard set on getting me to open my mouth and show him…after following me around and bellowing "please!" and "let me see!" and pulling on my legs…one of the womyn in the room realized what he was asking to see…and after telling him that "it’s not nice to ask her to do something if she doesn’t want to," she admitted that she had never noticed it. Ps… I have never had a child give me a bad reaction about mine… at first I never thought about what I would have to say if a child asked me.. until I got cornered one day by a 5 year old… and I told her it was a tic-tac… a few weeks later she asked me why I still have a tic-tac.. and then said " Thats like the Wonka Gobstobber " ( The Everlasting Gobstopper in Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory )….

She fell for THAT?!!! Ugh! I would think that such an explanation would yeild a, "no, but it’s shiny!" SuperJen ICQ UIN# 2700926 "All my plans fell through my hands | Who is my ecstasy? They fell through my hands… | Who pulls me apart All my dreams it suddenly seems | And tears into me? EMPTY." | –the cranberries | "Empty" |

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Why the hell not…. I have done crazier things in my life… lets do it… it can be a real test of all of our theories…. ummmm but lets leave question three out with the kiddies… why stop with just short people though… why not just ask everyone ???? You most likely think I am kidding… but am I ???? And I would say that that’s another thing…that children are less contained…they don’t feel embarrassed or self-conscious for staring at someone, or for loudly pointing our something seems weird to them, for that matter (One of my friends, when she was younger, she was in a store with her mom and she spotted a man with a goiter (thyroid enlargement due to iodine deficiency); she alerted her mom to it both gesturally (by pointing) and audibly, as she thought that man had swallowed a ball that got lodged in his throat!)

Yeah… I was personally responsible for saying at exactly the right moment ( my grandmother was having lunch or something with a man she hadn’t seen in a few years, but adored ) " Nanny, Why do you have two chins ??? " Ps… I have never had a child give me a bad reaction about mine… at first I never thought about what I would have to say if a child asked me.. until I got cornered one day by a 5 year old… and I told her it was a tic-tac… a few weeks later she asked me why I still have a tic-tac.. and then said " Thats like the Wonka Gobstobber " ( The Everlasting Gobstopper in Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory )…. She fell for THAT?!!! Ugh! I would think that such an explanation would yeild a, "no, but it’s shiny!"

I never said she was intelligent…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SuperJen

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Heh, well…then after we say hello to some cute day care kiddies, let’s go round ourselves up some short adults…and I mean short, cuz I’m only 5 feet tall…and pay our respects…Afterwards, we can give them a survey…"Question 1: Did you notice anything weird?"; "Question 2: Did you notice anything interesting?"; "Question 3: Are you turned on?"…oops! Why the hell not…. I have done crazier things in my life… lets do it… it can be a real test of all of our theories…. ummmm but lets leave question three out with the kiddies… why stop with just short people though… why not just ask everyone ???? You most likely think I am kidding… but am I ????

Ayy!!…You’d better be careful with what you suggest b/c I’m a NYer myself! ~(^_^)~ …In the instance that your really interested in doing this…how should we go about it? Should we get into some random chatting with the victims before we give them the handy dandy survey (btw, I just pulled the eating anything?"; "Were we sucking on anything?"; "Did light come out of any part of our bodies?" <g; "Do you have this almost insuppressable urge to scream and point?"; "Do you feel like the way you feel when you talk to your teenaged raver-wannabe bro/sis?"; "Do you wanna play doctor?"…hehehe…and so on!)…?…hmm…I suppose some type of chatting should be done…since nothing would really happen if we just shoved surveys in ppl’s faces and asked, "would you like to take our survey?" in the midst of rounding up other victims… Concerning the day care visit…I don’t know if we could really do that…especially now, with the ‘disease’ precautions day care centers now use…and even if we could get our hands on a group of kids chasing after us with kitchen utensils, thinking we had intentions to take away their pwecious babies…<g But then, of course, we could just pick up conversations with random people…regarding completely random, pointless, and absurd topics…"My friend over here thinks I’d look great if I shaved my head, what do you think? I mean, my ears are sort of big and stick out a bit, and my head is round and probably sort of big too…so we were wondering if we could get your opinion?" Er…yeah, so, like, if you weren’t at all serious, you can just disregard all the stuff I wrote above *_* …heh Yeah… I was personally responsible for saying at exactly the right moment ( my grandmother was having lunch or something with a man she hadn’t seen in a few years, but adored ) " Nanny, Why do you have two chins ??? "

Woooo…you should have been around when my sis (I think she was around 6 or 7) asked my grandmother if she had ass hair…apparently, some, er, women at the pool she goes to were being not self-conscious enough!…and my sis happens to be one of those ‘I’ll ask any question that comes to my mind’ kiddies…many a time, she has cornered me grandmum with questions that were both mortifying and embarrassing but funny… SuperJen ICQ UIN# 2700926 "All my plans fell through my hands | Who is my ecstasy? They fell through my hands… | Who pulls me apart All my dreams it suddenly seems | And tears into me? EMPTY." | –the cranberries | "Empty" |

Response:

: In a reply to a post awhile back someone stated that only 3 people had : noticed the tongue pierce they had in a 9 week period!! They went on to say : that all the people were short (I always say small…it’s not as : offensive!!). Anyway I have had the same experience, the only people who : notice my tongue are small…I am 6′3"!! Any others out there noticed this : phenomenon?? If I offended anyone "smaller" than me, I apologize. A lot of your responses came from people who thought I was referring to children, I wasn’t. The three people I mentioned were all adults. They all cringed at the sight of it and made faces. <sigh The one child that I did show it to thought it was the coolest! — Karen Noel Cincinnati, Ohio USA

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Shall we ?? ?? ?? For the good of R.A.B. ( and for good measure we will have a disclaimer at the bottom saying this was done on our own accord and that R.A.B did not set us loose on the public….) ~(^_^)~ …In the instance that your really interested in doing this…how should we go about it? Should we get into some random chatting with the victims before we give them the handy dandy survey (btw, I just pulled the eating anything?"; "Were we sucking on anything?"; "Did light come out of any part of our bodies?" <g; "Do you have this almost insuppressable urge to scream and point?";

INSUPPRESSABLE ????? just how advanced are the children that you deal with ???? Concerning the day care visit…I don’t know if we could really do that…especially now, with the ‘disease’ precautions day care centers now use…and even if we could get our hands on a group of kids chasing after us with kitchen utensils, thinking we had intentions to take away their pwecious babies…<g

Oh allright… we can figure something else out for the kids… hmmmm besides I don’t want to violate parole… ( mind you, some of those parents might even try to make us KEEP their children…) But then, of course, we could just pick up conversations with random people…regarding completely random, pointless, and absurd topics…"My friend over here thinks I’d look great if I shaved my head, what do you think? I mean, my ears are sort of big and stick out a bit, and my head is round and probably sort of big too…so we were wondering if we could get your opinion?"

But if enough people say you would look good… can we really shave your head ????? oh please…. please please…. oh what fun…. ( wait.. did you mean ME… how do you know I have big ears and a larger than average noggin ? ? ? ) Er…yeah, so, like, if you weren’t at all serious, you can just disregard all the stuff I wrote above *_* …heh

Nope… I was serious… kinda… that is if you were serious that is… if your not, then of course I was kidding.. thats a stupid idea…. Hows next weekend ??? Hmmm or before the next NY Munch ….. Troy

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Shall we ?? ?? ?? For the good of R.A.B. ( and for good measure we will have a disclaimer at the bottom saying this was done on our own accord and that R.A.B did not set us loose on the public….) ~(^_^)~ …In the instance that your really interested in doing this…how should we go about it? Should we get into some random chatting with the victims before we give them the handy dandy survey (btw, I just pulled the eating anything?"; "Were we sucking on anything?"; "Did light come out of any part of our bodies?" <g; "Do you have this almost insuppressable urge to scream and point?"; INSUPPRESSABLE ????? just how advanced are the children that you deal with ????

pointin at *each other* in no time! ^_^ Concerning the day care visit…I don’t know if we could really do that…especially now, with the ‘disease’ precautions day care centers now use…and even if we could get our hands on a group of kids mothers chasing after us with kitchen utensils, thinking we had intentions to take away their pwecious babies…<g Oh allright… we can figure something else out for the kids… hmmmm besides I don’t want to violate parole… ( mind you, some of those parents might even try to make us KEEP their children…)

Hehe! Imagine that!…then I could go home with a handful of kiddies and say to my mom, "See?! Since you said I couldn’t have a pet piggy (oink! snort! gktgktgkt!), I decided to get some pet kiddies instead! Do you wanna breast feed them or should I?"…Wait…now, you’re going to ask…"just how well developed are the children that you deal with ????" I was thinking b4, that maybe we could go attack some parks, but then, attacked for harrassment as well ("My child doesn’t want your poisoned candy!!!!!!" or in your case, "Excuse me, mister! but my child doesn’t eat tictacs!"). But then, of course, we could just pick up conversations with random people…regarding completely random, pointless, and absurd topics…"My friend over here thinks I’d look great if I shaved my head, what do you think? I mean, my ears are sort of big and stick out a bit, and my head is round and probably sort of big too…so we were wondering if we could get your opinion?" But if enough people say you would look good… can we really shave your head ?????

No way!!!!! b/c then, we’ll both know that our victims had been lying out of their arses, and after I shave *their* heads for lying and telling me I’d look like the next big supermodel, I’d still have to walk around with a hairless, oversized head (one of my friends tried to make me feel better by telling me that it’s not that my head is too big, it’s just that the shirt that he was trying to get on me that day was too small) and two big ears that seem to strike the fancy of some overaffectionate dudes, thusly causing them to stick their fingers in them in the act of teasing me…er…yeah…no…I was just kidding about that…tictacs do that to me ^_^ . oh please…. please please…. oh what fun…. ( wait.. did you mean ME… how do you know I have big ears and a larger than average noggin ? ? ? )

No, if you take what I just wrote above quite as seriously as you have for everything else I’ve written (kiddies really are quite smart though…I guess mebbe not too linguistically), it should be quite evident that I was pointing to me own head. Er…yeah, so, like, if you weren’t at all serious, you can just disregard all the stuff I wrote above *_* …heh Nope… I was serious… kinda… that is if you were serious that is… if your not, then of course I was kidding.. thats a stupid idea….

I know, right? where the hell do you come up with such stupid ideas? I mean, one time, when I was younger and in elementary school, my teacher punished me by telling me to go sit in the corner and not allowing me to take part in the next fun thing the class was going to do (making fake money, apparently…whutta thrill huh?), b/c I thought it would be funny if I pulled the chair away from under this boy as he was about to sit down…so he fell and either began to cry or cried out and I got in trouble…but yeah, man…I mean, if you were in my class, you’d always be sitting in the corner…In fact, I bet you’re sitting in the corner now… So how’s about next, next weekend? on Saturday? I’d love to go this coming Saturday, but I am in the midst of trying to figure out what the hell to give my tat artist as a ‘creative tip’ (since we all think it’s such a special act of respect…not like I wouldn’t love to do it, of course!) the next time I go in for work, which should be the Friday after the one coming up…I already have an idea as to what to get him, but I have a feeling it’s gonna be sort of hard to find…so I’m gonna go plug my mom fer help (since she’d have a better idea of where I’d have to go to find what I’m looking for)… Would that be kewl? About the survey type things…d’ya think we should get them on paper and actually hand them out? or should we just ask the ppl some, er, helpful questions after some casual conversation, and then write down (or since we both have such monumental heads, we can remember them? ^_^ ) the results afterwards? I think this would be really great if everything works out well…then we could post the results and rab could have it’s very own ‘tictac visibility’ survey results! (or ppl could use this to mock us and accuse us of having too much time to waste) SuperJen ICQ UIN# 2700926 "All my plans fell through my hands | Who is my ecstasy? They fell through my hands… | Who pulls me apart All my dreams it suddenly seems | And tears into me? EMPTY." | –the cranberries | "Empty" |

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INSUPPRESSABLE ????? just how advanced are the children that you deal with ???? pointin at *each other* in no time! ^_^

Serious…. nah…. not at all… there was a smile….. stike that… a smirk on my face when I said that… it just caught me as funny that you should pick such a word..I had an image in my head of you handing a 4 year old a big ol’ questionaire ( bound and about 100 pages or so ) just filled with words over 5 syllables… and strapping them in to a polygraph… Oh allright… we can figure something else out for the kids… hmmmm besides I don’t want to violate parole… ( mind you, some of those parents might even try to make us KEEP their children…) Hehe! Imagine that!…then I could go home with a handful of kiddies and say to my mom, "See?! Since you said I couldn’t have a pet piggy (oink! snort! gktgktgkt!), I decided to get some pet kiddies instead! Do you wanna breast feed them or should I?"…Wait…now, you’re going to ask…"just how well developed are the children that you deal with ????"

If your going to be putting words in my mouth here… you might at least have the courtesy to tell me in what way would I mean it too…. You could mean ( that I would mean ) two things, one being based on the breast feeding.. making me wonder if these kids are infants… OR you could be refering to " go home with a HANDFUL of kiddies " in which case I would think those kids are VERY well developed possibly even pubescent… in which case I would have to wonder if it’s YOU that might end up violating parole…. I know, right? where the hell do you come up with such stupid ideas? I mean, one time, when I was younger and in elementary school, my teacher punished me by telling me to go sit in the corner and not allowing me to take part in the next fun thing the class was going to do (making fake money, apparently…whutta thrill huh?), b/c I thought it would be funny if I pulled the chair away from under this boy as he was about to sit down…so he fell and either began to cry or cried out and I got in trouble…but yeah, man…I mean, if you were in my class, you’d always be sitting in the corner…In fact, I bet you’re sitting in the corner now…

I think your subconsciously trying to make me out to be like you, because your bad… but I am not.. never got in trouble in fact, quite the choirboy…. ( oh, by the way if Sal from Mr. Donovans class at Tremont Elementary school is reading this NG, I apologize for putting that roofing nail on your chair, but you never should have put the thumbtack on mine… besides, don’t you look before you sit down ??? )…. Anyhow… When we do get together, I am going to make sure you sit down before I do… I am not letting you pull any chairs from under me lady….. ( and yes, I am in the corner… with a big old dunce cap on…) So how’s about next, next weekend? on Saturday?

Ok… ( how damn cold is it supposed to be ???) SuperJen

Troy…. Oh yeah… sal was fine after the tetanus shot.. and he got excused from gym for the rest of the week… 8 )

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – INSUPPRESSABLE ????? just how advanced are the children that you deal with ???? pointin at *each other* in no time! ^_^ Serious…. nah…. not at all… there was a smile….. stike that… a smirk on my face when I said that… it just caught me as funny that you should pick such a word..I had an image in my head of you handing a 4 year old a big ol’ questionaire ( bound and about 100 pages or so ) just filled with words over 5 syllables… and strapping them in to a polygraph…

A number of years ago, I went to Ireland with my mother and an aunt (first generation born in this country). We went into a bed and breakfast, and no one was at the counter. A small child, I would say 4 yo at the most, wandered in from another room, looked at us and said, "Is it accommodations you’ll be wanting?" We stood there and gaped. Susan ObBodMod – all my reservations are made for the trip out to LA on the 24th. Trevor told me he’s set aside all of Saturday afternoon for me. — "Throughout the 20th century in the United States, tattooing remained popular among sailors. By the 1990s the practice had gained popularity with many groups, including fashion models, counter-culture youth, gangs, and prison inmates." "Tattooing," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 97 Encyclopedia. (c) 1993-1996 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. — "Hee Hee Hee" Susan http://www2.netcom.com/~scamp3/index.html

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<snip all but the sig "Throughout the 20th century in the United States, tattooing remained popular among sailors. By the 1990s the practice had gained popularity with many groups, including fashion models, counter-culture youth, gangs, and prison inmates." "Tattooing," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 97 Encyclopedia. (c) 1993-1996 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. — "Hee Hee Hee" Susan http://www2.netcom.com/~scamp3/index.html

OK, I give up….which group do I belong to? Way2go, Susan ;-} Mark Sona si Latine loqueris.

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What? like I wouldn’t? =p blpblpblpblbp!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh allright… we can figure something else out for the kids… hmmmm besides I don’t want to violate parole… ( mind you, some of those parents might even try to make us KEEP their children…) Hehe! Imagine that!…then I could go home with a handful of kiddies and say to my mom, "See?! Since you said I couldn’t have a pet piggy (oink! snort! gktgktgkt!), I decided to get some pet kiddies instead! Do you wanna breast feed them or should I?"…Wait…now, you’re going to ask…"just how well developed are the children that you deal with ????" If your going to be putting words in my mouth here… you might at least have the courtesy to tell me in what way would I mean it too…. You could mean ( that I would mean ) two things, one being based on the breast feeding.. making me wonder if these kids are infants… OR you could be refering to " go home with a HANDFUL of kiddies " in which case I would think those kids are VERY well developed possibly even pubescent… in which case I would have to wonder if it’s YOU that might end up violating parole….

Oy!!!!!!! There ya go…throwing me loops again! I didn’t even think of that one!…lol…I think you’re gonna do quite well with the random babble initiating we’ll hafta do w/ the ppl we meet…But then…wait! (muahahaha!)…you fergot to skim over your writing to which I was responding to…you wrote "…might try to make us KEEP their – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know, right? where the hell do you come up with such stupid ideas? I mean, one time, when I was younger and in elementary school, my teacher punished me by telling me to go sit in the corner and not allowing me to take part in the next fun thing the class was going to do (making fake money, apparently…whutta thrill huh?), b/c I thought it would be funny if I pulled the chair away from under this boy as he was about to sit down…so he fell and either began to cry or cried out and I got in trouble…but yeah, man…I mean, if you were in my class, you’d always be sitting in the corner…In fact, I bet you’re sitting in the corner now… I think your subconsciously trying to make me out to be like you, because your bad…

Subconsciously?! I wouldn’t dream of that!…How’s about consciously?…<muahaha…! Naw, I’m not!…well, mebbe…nobody else thinks…because, I but I am not.. never got in trouble in fact, quite the choirboy…. ( oh, by the way if Sal from Mr. Donovans class at Tremont Elementary school is reading this NG, I apologize for putting that roofing nail on your chair, but you never should have put the

eek!!!! see, see, see what I mean?! I would never have had such a dark heart so as to do that!…heh…I wouldn’t even have the guts to do that…I mean, I didn’t think the boy would get *hurt* or cry out when I did that! <innocent angelic look thumbtack on mine… besides, don’t you look before you sit down ??? )…. Anyhow… When we do get together, I am going to make sure you sit down before I do… I am not letting you pull any chairs from under me

Don’tcha worry bout it, Troy, the seats on trains are stuck to the floor ^_^ .. lady….. ( and yes, I am in the corner… with a big old dunce cap on…) Oh yeah… sal was fine after the tetanus shot.. and he got excused from gym for the rest of the week… 8 )

But what happened to you, Troy? how was your butt after it was pierced with the tack??? SuperJen ICQ UIN# 2700926 "All my plans fell through my hands | Who is my ecstasy? They fell through my hands… | Who pulls me apart All my dreams it suddenly seems | And tears into me? EMPTY." | –the cranberries | "Empty" |

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But what happened to you, Troy? how was your butt after it was pierced with the tack???

Much better than the time my GF was cutting some stuff with my surgical scissors and left em on my bed… and well.. I laughed because they went into a cheek and were just sticking straight out when I got up ( REALLY FAST I might add)…. now THAT hurt…. but I still get a kick out of it… Troy

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