Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ::I’m so tired all the time, but I also have Epstein Barr so it’s really hard ::to tell what’s going on.  I just had a TSH test and it was within normal ::range.  I thought it would be out of range since my Thyroid is basically OK ::except for the Goiter.  I’m tired, cold, depressed and have memory problems ::normal.  Then there is the PCO problem that can cause all these problems too Dear Cathy, It can be so hard to figure out what disorder is causing what symptom. Do me a favor, take your temp and pulse a few times and let me know what you get. Also, Google ’subclinical hypothyroidism’. Not saying you have this, but it is something you should read up on. Feel better soon! Jackie ~*~Life was so much easier when your clothes didn’t match and boys had cooties~*~

Hi Jackie, My temp has been between 96.? and 98.4, I took it a few times over the past 2 weeks, I am normally 98.6.  I will keep a journal over today and tomorrow and see what it is running and let you know.  I remember my doc saying once that my pulse was faster then normal (90ish) but lately (since stopping BP meds and starting Levoxyl)  it has been lower. I went to see my doc today (hubby had a routine appointment so I tagged along).  I felt stupid by complaining of the same thing AGAIN but this time she took me much more seriously and recommended I see an Endocrinologist.  I told her that since starting the Levoxyl these symptoms have increased.  I made an appointment for September 6th. Love Cathy — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

::My temp has been between 96.? and 98.4, I took it a few times over the past ::2 weeks, I am normally 98.6. The 96 is on the low side. I`m really glad your doctor didn`t dismiss your symptoms. The best doctor to be checked out by is an endo. Good luck and let us know how the appt goes. Jackie ~*~Life was so much easier when your clothes didn’t match and boys had cooties~*~ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

:: I really ::don’t get hot flashes during the day because I’m cold all the time since I ::went on Levoxyl to treat a Goiter. Hmmm……if anything, you would feel warmer on levoxyl. Cathy, ask your doctor to test your thyroid. Feeling cold is a common symptom of an underactive thyroid. A thyroid that is not up to par can also cause depression. Have you been really tired lately? Jackie ~*~Life was so much easier when your clothes didn’t match and boys had cooties~*~

Hi Jackie, I’m so tired all the time, but I also have Epstein Barr so it’s really hard to tell what’s going on.  I just had a TSH test and it was within normal range.  I thought it would be out of range since my Thyroid is basically OK except for the Goiter.  I’m tired, cold, depressed and have memory problems normal.  Then there is the PCO problem that can cause all these problems too Love Cathy — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

::I’m so tired all the time, but I also have Epstein Barr so it’s really hard ::to tell what’s going on.  I just had a TSH test and it was within normal ::range.  I thought it would be out of range since my Thyroid is basically OK ::except for the Goiter.  I’m tired, cold, depressed and have memory problems ::normal.  Then there is the PCO problem that can cause all these problems too Dear Cathy, It can be so hard to figure out what disorder is causing what symptom. Do me a favor, take your temp and pulse a few times and let me know what you get. Also, Google ’subclinical hypothyroidism’. Not saying you have this, but it is something you should read up on. Feel better soon! Jackie ~*~Life was so much easier when your clothes didn’t match and boys had cooties~*~ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Anne, This month is really bad and I can’t help but wonder if it will keep getting worse.  Yesterday I actually thought I was loosing my mind.  I thought I was going to go crazy.  I really think the Progesterone is the cause of these anything else. Love Cathy

Cathy, I’m sorry you are suffering so!  Everyone’s experience w/ "the change" is different. I don’t know whether it’s the Lexapro or what, but my symptoms were comparatively mild, and now I seem to be actually in menopause (yay) as opposed to peri-.  I have to say it’s a big relief. Most men have *no idea* how profoundly women are affected – physically and emotionally – from puberty on by the monthly fluctuations of hormones. Hope you can get some help for these symptoms. xxoo Anne

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

LOL Love Cathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – LOL!  Cathy, I meant RitE Aid brand not RitA Aid brand…where’s my mind sometimes!!! smiles, Elise I think I’ll try that Rita, thank you Love Cathy Hi, Cathy, I haven’t had to deal with this for years but I used to take Midol (Rita Aid brand, whatever) for a day or so.  I felt it gave me relief from PMS symptoms and I think when I ridded myself of those symptoms I felt better adjusted. smiles, Elise This is for the ladies or anyone who can offer some insight.  How do you one day of the blues but this month I’ve been dealing with this monster for 7 days.  I suppose I have slight depression many more days but this time it’s pretty bad.  I’m also dealing with a hormonal disorder called PolyCystic ovaries and I take Progesterone a few days every month.  I’m also Perimenopausal. Love Cathy — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Wow my daughter was taking Topamax for Migraines. Thank you for all the info Gigglz Love Cathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Cathy, I’ve had it for YEARS. That’s what Gluphophage did to me, too!  Bad shit!  (pardon the pun) LOL!  Glad you found a good Endo  I’m taking an anti-seizure medication (but I don’t have epilepsy) that has a side effect of helping with insulin resistance!  I’ve now lost 12 pounds  It also is helping with my nerve pain…which was the main reason I started taking it.  It is called Topamax.  Another nice thing is that it has helped quite a bit with my anxiety as well.  Go figure. Keep me posted, Cathy.  I hope he takes your insurance! Love, Giggz Hi Gigglz, I didn’t know you had PCOS too.  I discovered it myself apx 1998 and then found a Gyn who knew how to treat it.  I took Glucophage for years but the Diarrhea was just too much for me, I couldn’t seem to adjust to the med. I just found a good Endocrinologist and want to see if he takes my Insurance. Thank you for all your info Love Cathy ((((((((((Cathy))))))))))) I’ve had PCOS for years.  An Endocrinologist diagnosed it.  PolyCystic Ovarian Syndrome causes us many more problems than the typical female! But you knew that already, right?  :-(  Many Endocrinologists will treat PCOS with a diabetic medication; either Glucophage or Actos.  It helps keep your weight balanced, as PCOS sufferers have Insulin Resistance, causing weight gain.  BUT, we are NOT diabetic.  Please feel free to email me about this, OK?  As far as the depression goes, it really helps to just BE on an anti-depressant as well.  I don’t know what or if you take any meds currently.  I myself am IN menopause now, and I can tell you from experience…it only gets worse!  (gee, aren’t I just little Sarah Sunshine?)  Bottom line is, check with your doctor.  It sounds like the Progesterone isn’t working for you any more, and you need to do something else at this point!!  I’m so sorry for what you are going through.  I know how awful it is.  Please email me any time, sweetie! Love, Gigglz This is for the ladies or anyone who can offer some insight.  How do you one day of the blues but this month I’ve been dealing with this monster for 7 days.  I suppose I have slight depression many more days but this time it’s pretty bad.  I’m also dealing with a hormonal disorder called PolyCystic ovaries and I take Progesterone a few days every month.  I’m also Perimenopausal. Love Cathy — P.H.O.B.I.A. Panic/Anxiety support group http://www.members.tripod.com/~PhobiaGroup/index.html If someone listens, or stretches out a  hand, or whispers a kind word of encouragement, or attempts to understand a lonely person, extraordinary things begin to happen. ~Loretta Girzatlis~ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

::I feel a little better today Good ::You mean you can take them only certain days?  I thought you had to take ::them every day.  Thank you for all this info Jackie. Yes, you would only take it during the PMS period. To be honest, I don`t know anyone that has tried this. Jackie ~*~Life was so much easier when your clothes didn’t match and boys had cooties~*~ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

:: I really ::don’t get hot flashes during the day because I’m cold all the time since I ::went on Levoxyl to treat a Goiter. Hmmm……if anything, you would feel warmer on levoxyl. Cathy, ask your doctor to test your thyroid. Feeling cold is a common symptom of an underactive thyroid. A thyroid that is not up to par can also cause depression. Have you been really tired lately? Jackie ~*~Life was so much easier when your clothes didn’t match and boys had cooties~*~ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Cathy, I’m sorry you are suffering so!  Everyone’s experience w/ "the change" is different. I don’t know whether it’s the Lexapro or what, but my symptoms were comparatively mild, and now I seem to be actually in menopause (yay) as opposed to peri-.  I have to say it’s a big relief. Most men have *no idea* how profoundly women are affected – physically and emotionally – from puberty on by the monthly fluctuations of hormones.   Hope you can get some help for these symptoms. xxoo Anne — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

LOL!  Cathy, I meant RitE Aid brand not RitA Aid brand…where’s my mind sometimes!!! smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think I’ll try that Rita, thank you Love Cathy Hi, Cathy, I haven’t had to deal with this for years but I used to take Midol (Rita Aid brand, whatever) for a day or so.  I felt it gave me relief from PMS symptoms and I think when I ridded myself of those symptoms I felt better adjusted. smiles, Elise This is for the ladies or anyone who can offer some insight.  How do you one day of the blues but this month I’ve been dealing with this monster for 7 days.  I suppose I have slight depression many more days but this time it’s pretty bad.  I’m also dealing with a hormonal disorder called PolyCystic ovaries and I take Progesterone a few days every month.  I’m also Perimenopausal. Love Cathy — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Gigglz, I didn’t know you had PCOS too.  I discovered it myself apx 1998 and then found a Gyn who knew how to treat it.  I took Glucophage for years but the Diarrhea was just too much for me, I couldn’t seem to adjust to the med.  I just found a good Endocrinologist and want to see if he takes my Insurance. Thank you for all your info Love Cathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ((((((((((Cathy))))))))))) I’ve had PCOS for years.  An Endocrinologist diagnosed it.  PolyCystic Ovarian Syndrome causes us many more problems than the typical female! But you knew that already, right?  :-(  Many Endocrinologists will treat PCOS with a diabetic medication; either Glucophage or Actos.  It helps keep your weight balanced, as PCOS sufferers have Insulin Resistance, causing weight gain.  BUT, we are NOT diabetic.  Please feel free to email me about this, OK?  As far as the depression goes, it really helps to just BE on an anti-depressant as well.  I don’t know what or if you take any meds currently.  I myself am IN menopause now, and I can tell you from experience…it only gets worse!  (gee, aren’t I just little Sarah Sunshine?)  Bottom line is, check with your doctor.  It sounds like the Progesterone isn’t working for you any more, and you need to do something else at this point!!  I’m so sorry for what you are going through.  I know how awful it is.  Please email me any time, sweetie! Love, Gigglz This is for the ladies or anyone who can offer some insight.  How do you day of the blues but this month I’ve been dealing with this monster for 7 days.  I suppose I have slight depression many more days but this time it’s pretty bad.  I’m also dealing with a hormonal disorder called PolyCystic ovaries and I take Progesterone a few days every month.  I’m also Perimenopausal. Love Cathy — P.H.O.B.I.A. Panic/Anxiety support group http://www.members.tripod.com/~PhobiaGroup/index.html If someone listens, or stretches out a  hand, or whispers a kind word of encouragement, or attempts to understand a lonely person, extraordinary things begin to happen. ~Loretta Girzatlis~ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is for the ladies or anyone who can offer some insight.  How do you day of the blues but this month I’ve been dealing with this monster for 7 days.  I suppose I have slight depression many more days but this time it’s pretty bad.  I’m also dealing with a hormonal disorder called PolyCystic ovaries and I take Progesterone a few days every month.  I’m also Perimenopausal. Love Cathy I didn’t deal with it well at all, so I can only tell you what not to do.  But I have no idea if any of these things fall into the YMMV category. I drank too much coffee.  I self-medicated with any mood-altering thing I could find. What happened?  I cried all the time.  I pestered my gynecologist about alternative treatments until he told me, all exasperated, "Well, if that’s what they’re doing in England, GO TO ENGLAND!"  (I changed gynecologists at that point.) I wish I were kidding.  I’m not.  I was a basket case.  Now, here’s what I would recommend:  talk to doctors, listen to their advice, and follow it.  Can’t hurt.  If doc #1 doesn’t help, proceed to doc #2. Best of luck to you, Cathy! Love Deirdre

Hi Deidre, I know I drink too much coffee and I need to really limit it again.  My Gyn is an asshole and doesn’t listen but I haven’t brought this up to him yet. I’ve complained about the night sweats for a year before he said, "If it gets too bad we’ll deal with it later"  ……. sigh.  He is a jerk and last week I had to wait an hour for my appointment, by the time I got in the exam finally came in the exam room I wasn’t there and he had a fit throwing my chart on the counter and complaining. I know I need to find a new Gyn but he is very knowledgeable when it comes to my specific hormonal disorder …… that’s why I’ve stayed so long. Then there is the insurance crap and finding someone who takes it. Love Cathy — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ::This is for the ladies or anyone who can offer some insight.  How do you one ::day of the blues but this month I’ve been dealing with this monster for 7 ::days.  I suppose I have slight depression many more days but this time it’s ::pretty bad.  I’m also dealing with a hormonal disorder called PolyCystic ::ovaries and I take Progesterone a few days every month.  I’m also ::Perimenopausal. Dear Cathy, I`m sorry your hormones are being such a beast! Hopefully this is just an isolated ‘bad’ month. However, if it continues, talk to your doctor. You shouldn`t have to suffer like this every month. I read where you aren`t on any antidepressants and seem leery to take them? You may want to discuss with your doctor about using an SSRI during PMS time. ~*~These drugs may be taken orally every day, throughout the menstrual cycle, or just taken when premenstrual syndrome (PMS) symptoms are present in the 2 weeks before a woman’s period. How It Works These drugs, called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), improve mood by affecting the levels of a chemical messenger in the brain (neurotransmitter) called serotonin. Why It Is Used SSRIs may be used when: Depression, mood changes, and other behavioral or emotional disturbances are major symptoms of PMS. Depression becomes worse during the premenstrual phase. How Well It Works Studies have shown that the SSRIs make depression, irritability, and other behavioral and mood-related symptoms of PMS less severe. For some women, these drugs may also improve physical symptoms such as fatigue, appetite, bloating, breast pain, or insomnia. Controlled studies have shown SSRIs are effective in relieving PMS symptoms. It may be that taking SSRIs in the 2 weeks before menstrual bleeding is more effective than taking them every day. Further studies are being done.~*~ http://concernedcounseling.com/Communities/depression/treatment/antid… Some alternative treatments for PMS. Please check with your doctor first before taking any supplements. ~*~Herbs, Vitamins and Supplements for PMS What are the Treatment Options? There is no agreed upon approach for managing PMS. Conventional medical doctors may recommend the birth control pill, painkillers, diuretics or other drugs. Women often find relief using natural supplements, however, some studies have not clearly confirmed their efficacy. A trained practitioner can recommend the treatment most appropriate for a woman’s unique symptoms. Vitamin B6 This vitamin assists in the production of progesterone to counterbalance estrogen. It also promotes the synthesis of neurotransmitters in the brain such as serotonin and dopamine. Decreased levels of these neurotransmitters have been suggested in the etiology of PMS. Although vitamin B6 is a water-soluble vitamin, it can be toxic in large doses or with moderate doses over an extended period of time. Sponsored Links Intake should not exceed 200 mg/day and should be divided into 50 mg doses spread throughout the day. Signs of toxicity include tingling, numbness, and decreased sensation in the hands or feet. Evening Primrose Oil Evening Primrose oil (EPO) is often recommended for headache, cramping, bloating, breast pain, depression, and irritability. EPO contains gamma-linolenic acid, which is involved in the metabolism of hormone-like substances called prostaglandins that regulate pain and inflammation in the body. EPO is available in capsule or oil form and should always be refrigerated. Borage oil or black currant oil have similar effects and may be substituted. If used long-term, twice as much flax seed oil should be used to maintain the optimal balance of oils. Stomach discomfort and loose stools may occur if the initial dose is too high. EPO can interact with certain drugs for schizophrenia. Magnesium The mineral magnesium appears to benefit women with cramps, mood swings, depression, fatigue, breast tenderness, and water retention. Magnesium may work by promoting dopamine production and indirectly inhibiting activity of the hormone prolactin. It is involved in prostaglandin metabolism and vitamin B6 activity. Research studies show that although women with PMS do not differ in their serum levels of magnesium, levels of magnesium inside red blood cells are significantly lower in women with PMS. Vitamin B6 is required for Mg to enter cells. Magnesium deficiency may be associated with cravings for chocolate. People with heart or kidney disease must consult a health practitioner before taking magnesium supplements. Too much magnesium can cause diarrhea and serious health problems. Calcium The mineral calcium may be beneficial for women with premenstrual cramps and moodiness. In one 3 month research study comparing calcium supplements to a placebo, women taking calcium supplements experienced fewer premenstrual symptoms in the second and third months of usage. Ratings of mood, water retention, food cravings, and pain were significantly decreased. Calcium citrate is the most easily absorbed form of supplement. If calcium citrate is not available, calcium carbonate can be used. Chaste Tree (Vitex Agnus-Castus) Chaste tree, one of the most popular herbs for premenstrual syndrome, is recommended for breast pain and tenderness, infrequent menstrual periods and ovarian cysts. This herb affects the pituitary gland by increased the production of luteinizing hormone (LH) and shifting the ratio of estrogen to progesterone in favor of progesterone. Chaste tree also lowers the secretion of the hormone prolactin possibly by binding with dopamine receptors and decreasing the output of prolactin-releasing hormone. Acupuncture In traditional Asian medicine, the liver is the organ that is most affected by stress, anger, and frustration. Stagnation of liver energy and blood by emotions, alcohol, and spicy and fatty foods can lead to breast tenderness and abdominal bloating and cramping. Acupuncture, exercise, expressing emotions, and breathing exercises can help to relieve stagnation. Dietary Suggestions Women with premenstrual syndrome may benefit from making the following dietary changes: 1. Reduce sugar and salt intake. This is especially useful for bloating and swelling of the hands and feet, breast tenderness, and dizziness. Increase foods rich in potassium, such as fish, beans, and broccoli. 2. Eat small, frequent meals to help stabilize blood sugar. 3. Eliminate caffeine, which can aggravate anxiety, depression, and breast tenderness. 4. Increase intake of fruits, vegetables, beans, nuts, seeds, and fish. 5. Avoid alcohol. 6. Decrease intake of fatty foods and red meat. http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/womenshealth/a/PMS_2.htm A book you may want to check out is Valerie Raskin`s ‘When Words Aren`t Enough" <The Women`s Prescription for Anxiety and Depression. Hoping the PMS monster goes away soon. (((((Cathy))))) Jackie ~*~Life was so much easier when your clothes didn’t match and boys had cooties~*~

I feel a little better today. You mean you can take them only certain days?  I thought you had to take them every day.  Thank you for all this info Jackie. Love Cathy — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I think I’ll try that Rita, thank you Love Cathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Cathy, I haven’t had to deal with this for years but I used to take Midol (Rita Aid brand, whatever) for a day or so.  I felt it gave me relief from PMS symptoms and I think when I ridded myself of those symptoms I felt better adjusted. smiles, Elise This is for the ladies or anyone who can offer some insight.  How do you day of the blues but this month I’ve been dealing with this monster for 7 days.  I suppose I have slight depression many more days but this time it’s pretty bad.  I’m also dealing with a hormonal disorder called PolyCystic ovaries and I take Progesterone a few days every month.  I’m also Perimenopausal. Love Cathy

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Cathy: Are you taking an antidepressant? A woman doctor I saw a few years ago, substituting for my regular doctor, advised me to take an SSRI (she suggested Lexapro, which is what I’m now taking) to counteract perimenopausal mood changes.  You might discuss this with your gyn. or your pdoc. Hope you feel better. The change of life is no picnic! xxoo Anne It can be no picnic for anyone else in the area either. Those hot flashes are the pits. My wife gets them and then she is very hot and I am freezing. This has been going on now for a couple of years and show no sign of getting any better. Every change in medication used to give me periods of "prickly heat" so I have some idea of what hot flashes feel like. Prickly heat feels like being very over heated and being poked by pins all over the body at the same time. — Ron P If it doesn’t hurt today, it probably will tomorrow.

I get the night sweats and wake up all wet ……. it’s terrible.  I have a good 4 years to go before my doc will consider me Menopausal.  I really don’t get hot flashes during the day because I’m cold all the time since I went on Levoxyl to treat a Goiter. Love Cathy — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Anne, No I’m not any Ad, my doc is very concerned with weight gain.  I’ve tried a few over the years and seem to have a very difficult time with them for one reason or another.  I guess I’m just looking for non med ways to deal with this since it isn’t all the time. Love Cathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Cathy: Are you taking an antidepressant? A woman doctor I saw a few years ago, substituting for my regular doctor, advised me to take an SSRI (she suggested Lexapro, which is what I’m now taking) to counteract perimenopausal mood changes.  You might discuss this with your gyn. or your pdoc. Hope you feel better. The change of life is no picnic! xxoo Anne — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

::This is for the ladies or anyone who can offer some insight.  How do you ::day of the blues but this month I’ve been dealing with this monster for 7 ::days.  I suppose I have slight depression many more days but this time it’s ::pretty bad.  I’m also dealing with a hormonal disorder called PolyCystic ::ovaries and I take Progesterone a few days every month.  I’m also ::Perimenopausal. Dear Cathy, I`m sorry your hormones are being such a beast! Hopefully this is just an isolated ‘bad’ month. However, if it continues, talk to your doctor. You shouldn`t have to suffer like this every month. I read where you aren`t on any antidepressants and seem leery to take them? You may want to discuss with your doctor about using an SSRI during PMS time. ~*~These drugs may be taken orally every day, throughout the menstrual cycle, or  just taken when premenstrual syndrome (PMS) symptoms are present in the 2 weeks before a woman’s period. How It Works These drugs, called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), improve mood by affecting the levels of a chemical messenger in the brain (neurotransmitter) called serotonin. Why It Is Used SSRIs may be used when: Depression, mood changes, and other behavioral or emotional disturbances are major symptoms of PMS. Depression becomes worse during the premenstrual phase. How Well It Works Studies have shown that the SSRIs make depression, irritability, and other behavioral and mood-related symptoms of PMS less severe. For some women, these drugs may also improve physical symptoms such as fatigue, appetite, bloating, breast pain, or insomnia. Controlled studies have shown SSRIs are effective in relieving PMS symptoms. It may be that taking SSRIs in the 2 weeks before menstrual bleeding is more effective than taking them every day. Further studies are being done.~*~ http://concernedcounseling.com/Communities/depression/treatment/antid… Some alternative treatments for PMS. Please check with your doctor first before taking any supplements. ~*~Herbs, Vitamins and Supplements for PMS What are the Treatment Options? There is no agreed upon approach for managing PMS. Conventional medical doctors may recommend the birth control pill, painkillers, diuretics or other drugs. Women often find relief using natural supplements, however, some studies have not clearly confirmed their efficacy. A trained practitioner can recommend the treatment most appropriate for a woman’s unique symptoms. Vitamin B6 This vitamin assists in the production of progesterone to counterbalance estrogen. It also promotes the synthesis of neurotransmitters in the brain such as serotonin and dopamine. Decreased levels of these neurotransmitters have been suggested in the etiology of PMS. Although vitamin B6 is a water-soluble vitamin, it can be toxic in large doses or with moderate doses over an extended period of time. Sponsored Links Intake should not exceed 200 mg/day and should be divided into 50 mg doses spread throughout the day. Signs of toxicity include tingling, numbness, and decreased sensation in the hands or feet. Evening Primrose Oil Evening Primrose oil (EPO) is often recommended for headache, cramping, bloating, breast pain, depression, and irritability. EPO contains gamma-linolenic acid, which is involved in the metabolism of hormone-like substances called prostaglandins that regulate pain and inflammation in the body. EPO is available in capsule or oil form and should always be refrigerated. Borage oil or black currant oil have similar effects and may be substituted. If used long-term, twice as much flax seed oil should be used to maintain the optimal balance of oils. Stomach discomfort and loose stools may occur if the initial dose is too high. EPO can interact with certain drugs for schizophrenia. Magnesium The mineral magnesium appears to benefit women with cramps, mood swings, depression, fatigue, breast tenderness, and water retention. Magnesium may work by promoting dopamine production and indirectly inhibiting activity of the hormone prolactin. It is involved in prostaglandin metabolism and vitamin B6 activity. Research studies show that although women with PMS do not differ in their serum levels of magnesium, levels of magnesium inside red blood cells are significantly lower in women with PMS. Vitamin B6 is required for Mg to enter cells. Magnesium deficiency may be associated with cravings for chocolate. People with heart or kidney disease must consult a health practitioner before taking magnesium supplements. Too much magnesium can cause diarrhea and serious health problems. Calcium The mineral calcium may be beneficial for women with premenstrual cramps and moodiness. In one 3 month research study comparing calcium supplements to a placebo, women taking calcium supplements experienced fewer premenstrual symptoms in the second and third months of usage. Ratings of mood, water retention, food cravings, and pain were significantly decreased. Calcium citrate is the most easily absorbed form of supplement. If calcium citrate is not available, calcium carbonate can be used. Chaste Tree (Vitex Agnus-Castus) Chaste tree, one of the most popular herbs for premenstrual syndrome, is recommended for breast pain and tenderness, infrequent menstrual periods and ovarian cysts. This herb affects the pituitary gland by increased the production of luteinizing hormone (LH) and shifting the ratio of estrogen to progesterone in favor of progesterone. Chaste tree also lowers the secretion of the hormone prolactin possibly by binding with dopamine receptors and decreasing the output of prolactin-releasing hormone. Acupuncture In traditional Asian medicine, the liver is the organ that is most affected by stress, anger, and frustration. Stagnation of liver energy and blood by emotions, alcohol, and spicy and fatty foods can lead to breast tenderness and abdominal bloating and cramping. Acupuncture, exercise, expressing emotions, and breathing exercises can help to relieve stagnation. Dietary Suggestions Women with premenstrual syndrome may benefit from making the following dietary changes: 1. Reduce sugar and salt intake. This is especially useful for bloating and swelling of the hands and feet, breast tenderness, and dizziness. Increase foods rich in potassium, such as fish, beans, and broccoli. 2. Eat small, frequent meals to help stabilize blood sugar. 3. Eliminate caffeine, which can aggravate anxiety, depression, and breast tenderness. 4. Increase intake of fruits, vegetables, beans, nuts, seeds, and fish. 5. Avoid alcohol. 6. Decrease intake of fatty foods and red meat. http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/womenshealth/a/PMS_2.htm A book you may want to check out is Valerie Raskin`s ‘When Words Aren`t Enough" <The Women`s Prescription for Anxiety and Depression. Hoping the PMS monster goes away soon. (((((Cathy))))) Jackie ~*~Life was so much easier when your clothes didn’t match and boys had cooties~*~ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Cathy: Are you taking an antidepressant? A woman doctor I saw a few years ago, substituting for my regular doctor, advised me to take an SSRI (she suggested Lexapro, which is what I’m now taking) to counteract perimenopausal mood changes.  You might discuss this with your gyn. or your pdoc. Hope you feel better. The change of life is no picnic! xxoo Anne

It can be no picnic for anyone else in the area either. Those hot flashes are the pits. My wife gets them and then she is very hot and I am freezing. This has been going on now for a couple of years and show no sign of getting any better. Every change in medication used to give me periods of "prickly heat" so I have some idea of what hot flashes feel like. Prickly heat feels like being very over heated and being poked by pins all over the body at the same time. — Ron P If it doesn’t hurt today, it probably will tomorrow. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

This is for the ladies or anyone who can offer some insight.  How do you day of the blues but this month I’ve been dealing with this monster for 7 days.  I suppose I have slight depression many more days but this time it’s pretty bad.  I’m also dealing with a hormonal disorder called PolyCystic ovaries and I take Progesterone a few days every month.  I’m also Perimenopausal. Love Cathy — P.H.O.B.I.A. Panic/Anxiety support group http://www.members.tripod.com/~PhobiaGroup/index.html If someone listens, or stretches out a  hand, or whispers a kind word of encouragement, or attempts to understand a lonely person, extraordinary things begin to happen. ~Loretta Girzatlis~ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Cathy: Are you taking an antidepressant? A woman doctor I saw a few years ago, substituting for my regular doctor, advised me to take an SSRI (she suggested Lexapro, which is what I’m now taking) to counteract perimenopausal mood changes.  You might discuss this with your gyn. or your pdoc. Hope you feel better. The change of life is no picnic! xxoo Anne — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

This is for the ladies or anyone who can offer some insight.  How do you day of the blues but this month I’ve been dealing with this monster for 7 days.  I suppose I have slight depression many more days but this time it’s pretty bad.  I’m also dealing with a hormonal disorder called PolyCystic ovaries and I take Progesterone a few days every month.  I’m also Perimenopausal. Love Cathy

I didn’t deal with it well at all, so I can only tell you what not to do.  But I have no idea if any of these things fall into the YMMV category. I drank too much coffee.  I self-medicated with any mood-altering thing I could find. What happened?  I cried all the time.  I pestered my gynecologist about alternative treatments until he told me, all exasperated, "Well, if that’s what they’re doing in England, GO TO ENGLAND!"  (I changed gynecologists at that point.) I wish I were kidding.  I’m not.  I was a basket case.  Now, here’s what I would recommend:  talk to doctors, listen to their advice, and follow it.  Can’t hurt.  If doc #1 doesn’t help, proceed to doc #2. Best of luck to you, Cathy! Love Deirdre — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Cathy, I haven’t had to deal with this for years but I used to take Midol (Rita Aid brand, whatever) for a day or so.  I felt it gave me relief from PMS symptoms and I think when I ridded myself of those symptoms I felt better adjusted. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is for the ladies or anyone who can offer some insight.  How do you day of the blues but this month I’ve been dealing with this monster for 7 days.  I suppose I have slight depression many more days but this time it’s pretty bad.  I’m also dealing with a hormonal disorder called PolyCystic ovaries and I take Progesterone a few days every month.  I’m also Perimenopausal. Love Cathy — P.H.O.B.I.A. Panic/Anxiety support group http://www.members.tripod.com/~PhobiaGroup/index.html If someone listens, or stretches out a  hand, or whispers a kind word of encouragement, or attempts to understand a lonely person, extraordinary things begin to happen. ~Loretta Girzatlis~ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Question:

Hi, I’ve written on the group before but don’t always have the time or ability to stay in touch.  I’m 56, still having periods every 6 months on my own after years of hormone replacement to have them.  Now it’s down to 3-1/2 months between this time.  What I am wondering is, does anyone else suffer from intolerable heat in the abdominal/back area. It just drives me crazy sometimes.  The rest of my body is cold or cool or normal but my abdomen and lower back is on fire.  It’s just crazy!  I keep a fan going under my desk because I can’t deal with all the heat and can’t sit for very long in my living room furniture with out getting so hot I can’t stand it anymore. Is this a menopausal symtom?  I also have diabetes and fibromyalgia.  The heat usually starts around the later part of the afternoon and lasts all night until I go to bed.  I don’t have any problems sleeping and no problems with heat at that time either.  IT’s just that part of the day approx. 4pm to 2am sometimes 3am before I go to bed.  When I sleep and wake up I’m fine.  I have had some nights when  I would wake up burning up but that has only happened a couple of times when my blood sugar was too high.  My blood sugar is normal range now and this heat has been going on for several years.  I just never get a definite answer as to why. Any one have any ideas? Thanks Liz

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Liz wrote:

Hi, I’ve written on the group before but don’t always have the time or ability to stay in touch.  I’m 56, still having periods every 6 months on my own after years of hormone replacement to have them.  Now it’s down to 3-1/2 months between this time.  What I am wondering is, does anyone else suffer from intolerable heat in the abdominal/back area. It just drives me crazy sometimes.  The rest of my body is cold or cool or normal but my abdomen and lower back is on fire.  It’s just crazy!  I keep a fan going under my desk because I can’t deal with all the heat and can’t sit for very long in my living room furniture with out getting so hot I can’t stand it anymore. Is this a menopausal symtom?  I also have diabetes and fibromyalgia.  The heat usually starts around the later part of the afternoon and lasts all night until I go to bed.  I don’t have any problems sleeping and no problems with heat at that time either.  IT’s just that part of the day approx. 4pm to 2am sometimes 3am before I go to bed.  When I sleep and wake up I’m fine.  I have had some nights when  I would wake up burning up but that has only happened a couple of times when my blood sugar was too high.  My blood sugar is normal range now and this heat has been going on for several years.  I just never get a definite answer as to why. Any one have any ideas?

Liz – I don’t have a clue as to why your back heats up, but maybe this might help.  There’s a pad called a Chillow, which you fill with water (less than 1" thick when filled) and through some magic of chemistry maintains a cool temperature.  It’s designed to slip inside a pillowcase, to use with your pillow.  You could place one against your back to help cool it off.  They are sold in a lot of places on the internet – google for the best price. Several women here have used one to help keep cool and stave off night sweats. I have no commercial interest in this product (but I wish I did!) – I have a large sized one for my very furry dog. HTH FurPaw — I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples, promising liberty and justice for all.         Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings. To reply, unleash the dog.

Response:

: : Liz – : : I don’t have a clue as to why your back heats up, but maybe this might : help.  There’s a pad called a Chillow, which you fill with water (less : than 1" thick when filled) and through some magic of chemistry maintains : a cool temperature.  It’s designed to slip inside a pillowcase, to use : with your pillow.  You could place one against your back to help cool it : off.  They are sold in a lot of places on the internet – google for the : best price. : : Several women here have used one to help keep cool and stave off night : sweats. : : I have no commercial interest in this product (but I wish I did!) – I : have a large sized one for my very furry dog. : : HTH : : FurPaw Thank you for the suggestion, I will check it out.  I was wondering if anything was available like this but didn’t know what to call it. Liz

Response:

"Liz" <L…@home.com

wrote in news:udAhd.40788$lp6.35581@okepread01:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hi, I’ve written on the group before but don’t always have the time or ability to stay in touch.  I’m 56, still having periods every 6 months on my own after years of hormone replacement to have them.  Now it’s down to 3-1/2 months between this time.  What I am wondering is, does anyone else suffer from intolerable heat in the abdominal/back area. It just drives me crazy sometimes.  The rest of my body is cold or cool or normal but my abdomen and lower back is on fire.  It’s just crazy!  I keep a fan going under my desk because I can’t deal with all the heat and can’t sit for very long in my living room furniture with out getting so hot I can’t stand it anymore. Is this a menopausal symtom?  I also have diabetes and fibromyalgia.  The heat usually starts around the later part of the afternoon and lasts all night until I go to bed.  I don’t have any problems sleeping and no problems with heat at that time either.  IT’s just that part of the day approx. 4pm to 2am sometimes 3am before I go to bed.  When I sleep and wake up I’m fine.  I have had some nights when  I would wake up burning up but that has only happened a couple of times when my blood sugar was too high.  My blood sugar is normal range now and this heat has been going on for several years.  I just never get a definite answer as to why. Any one have any ideas?

Liz, As I understand it, your heat comes and stays, no flashing, right?  This doesn’t sound particularly like peri to me.  Have you had your thyroid checked?   I read the other replies about the chillow, and I have another suggestion as well.  Fill a quart water bottle about half to three-quarters full and freeze it overnight without the cap.  Next day, fill it the rest of the way with water and tighten the cap.   It’ll stay cold all day, and you can put it on your lap, behind your back, or in your waistband while you’re at work. Chakolate — I am extraordinarily patient, provided I get my own way in the end.   –Margaret Thatcher

Response:

: : Liz, : : As I understand it, your heat comes and stays, no flashing, right? This : doesn’t sound particularly like peri to me.  Have you had your thyroid : checked? : : I read the other replies about the chillow, and I have another suggestion : as well.  Fill a quart water bottle about half to three-quarters full and : freeze it overnight without the cap.  Next day, fill it the rest of the way : with water and tighten the cap. : : It’ll stay cold all day, and you can put it on your lap, behind your back, : or in your waistband while you’re at work. : : : Chakolate No flashing, just steady heat.  I’ve been ok all day, now it’s 4:45pm and I’m starting to heat up.  My thyroid was checked over and over again and it’s always normal according to the Dr.s.  I read so many opposing views about Thyroid levels, I don’t know what to think.   I certainly have a lot of low thyroid symptoms, but Dr.s say "you’re ok".  Thanks for the idea about the cold bottle.  I checked the Chillows on Froogle and the cheapest one I found was $25.  I just wish they were smaller.  Maybe I should look for some ice paks? LizKS

Response:

"Liz" <L…@home.com

wrote in message

news:deUhd.41381$lp6.28873@okepread01… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

: : Liz, : : As I understand it, your heat comes and stays, no flashing, right? This : doesn’t sound particularly like peri to me.  Have you had your thyroid : checked? : : I read the other replies about the chillow, and I have another suggestion : as well.  Fill a quart water bottle about half to three-quarters full and : freeze it overnight without the cap.  Next day, fill it the rest of the way : with water and tighten the cap. : : It’ll stay cold all day, and you can put it on your lap, behind your back, : or in your waistband while you’re at work. : : : Chakolate No flashing, just steady heat.  I’ve been ok all day, now it’s 4:45pm and I’m starting to heat up.  My thyroid was checked over and over again and it’s always normal according to the Dr.s.  I read so many opposing views about Thyroid levels, I don’t know what to think.   I certainly have a lot of low thyroid symptoms, but Dr.s say "you’re ok".  Thanks for the idea about the cold bottle.  I checked the Chillows on Froogle and the cheapest one I found was $25.  I just wish they were smaller.  Maybe I should look for some ice paks? LizKS

You can make cheap emergency pliable ice packs by mixing water and rubbing alcohol in a 4:1 ratio.  Freeze heavy duty gallon ziploc bags of the stuff and they’ll stay cold for awhile, at least. Marilee – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

"Liz" <L…@home.com

wrote in news:deUhd.41381$lp6.28873@okepread01: No flashing, just steady heat.  I’ve been ok all day, now it’s 4:45pm and I’m starting to heat up.

A definite head-smacking moment occurred just then.  I also get warm in the evening now.  I keep the thermostat at 55 F and I’m a little chilly all day unless I move around a lot, but come evening, I’m stripping off extra clothing, and sweating. Hmmm.  I wonder why I didn’t relate that with your other post until just now? Chakolate — I am extraordinarily patient, provided I get my own way in the end.   –Margaret Thatcher

Response:

Question:

I was wondering about something.  I’ve been having depression that’s different from the usual depression that I’ve been having with my period.  I just feel depressed.  Also, sometimes I feel warm at night, even if it’s cool in my bedroom.  Could I be starting either menopause or perimenopause? BTW, I’m 41 years old and have been having fairly regular periods.  I also was adopted, so I don’t know how old my biological mother was when she went through this. Any help is appreciated; thanks in advance. Christine

Response:

From: "Christine Geary" I was wondering about something.  I’ve been having depression that’s different from the usual depression that I’ve been having with my period.  I just feel depressed.  Also, sometimes I feel warm at night, even if it’s cool in my bedroom.  Could I be starting either menopause or perimenopause? BTW, I’m 41 years old and have been having fairly regular periods.  I also was adopted, so I don’t know how old my biological mother was when she went through this. Any help is appreciated; thanks in advance.

Welcome to asm!  You could be in peri,but have you had your thyroid checked? Depression can be a signal of thyroid problems. Here are a couple links that may help. Best wishes! http://www.geocities.com/menobeyond/beyond.html http://www.geocities.com/menobeyond/whatishf.html http://menopause.tripod.com/ http://www.minniepauz.com/35symptoms.html Sharon……..Don’t think of it as getting hot flashes. Think of it as your inner child playing with matches.

Response:

"Christine Geary" <cge…@epix.net

wrote in message

news:Yj0bc.56$17.5419@news1.epix.net…

I was wondering about something.  I’ve been having depression that’s different from the usual depression that I’ve been having with my period.

I

just feel depressed.  Also, sometimes I feel warm at night, even if it’s cool in my bedroom.  Could I be starting either menopause or

perimenopause?

BTW, I’m 41 years old and have been having fairly regular periods.  I also was adopted, so I don’t know how old my biological mother was when she

went

through this. Any help is appreciated; thanks in advance. Christine

Yes, you could.  If you’re still having periods, then perimenopause. Although some women’s periods just all of a sudden stop & so they abruptly become menopausal, most go through it more gradually, with a time (months, years…) of periods &/or cycles that are "off", at least part of the time. Also, not everyone gets the same symptoms, nor at the same time.  Some show up in peri for some people, but not till after menopause for others – like hot flashes, night sweats, insomnia, etc. You might also want to get your thyroid checked (blood tests), just to make sure that hyperthyroidism isn’t causing your symptoms.  Thyroid symptoms & perimenopausal symptoms mimic eachother to a large degree, & thyroid disorders are most often diagnosed in middle age. There seems to be no consensus if one’s mother’s age at menopause has any direct bearing on your own menopausal age.  I think my mother hit it at 50, but I was earlier at 46.  She once made the remark that she thought she’d been a bit early, but that I was way earlier. Cathy — "Staccato signals of constant information…" ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Thanks for all the information that you gave me; it helped me a lot.  The next time that I go to my doctor, I’ll mention this to him. Christine

Response:

From: "Christine Geary" Thanks for all the information that you gave me; it helped me a lot.  The next time that I go to my doctor, I’ll mention this to him.

Good luck and keep us posted! Sharon……..Don’t think of it as getting hot flashes. Think of it as your inner child playing with matches.

Response:

CG <cathg_S_PAM_FREE_iesbre…@yahoo.com

wrote in

news:6l5p60p49hto3lglq2ln0ovpdhro2ps19v@4ax.com: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:02:32 GMT, "Christine Geary" <cge…@epix.net wrote: I was wondering about something.  I’ve been having depression that’s different from the usual depression that I’ve been having with my period.  I just feel depressed.  Also, sometimes I feel warm at night, even if it’s cool in my bedroom.  Could I be starting either menopause or perimenopause? BTW, I’m 41 years old and have been having fairly regular periods.  I also was adopted, so I don’t know how old my biological mother was when she went through this. Any help is appreciated; thanks in advance. Christine Hi, Christine, and welcome to a.s.m. Basically, your depression has settled into a steady state, rather than just cyclical — is that right?  That probably should be looked into, either by a doctor or a holistic healer (naturopathic physician, etc.).  How depressed are you on a scale of 1 to 10? (10 being worst). Menopause is something that isn’t determined to have happened unless you’ve gone without a period for a full 12 months (with no spotting or anything).  Until then, it’s the transition known as perimenopause, and 41 is not too young for that. Sounds like you’re having some hot flashes, too.  Are you having any other problems or changes? We’ve found in this newsgroup that what your mother’s body did during peri isn’t always a good indicator of what your body will do. Everyone is different.  And the myriad of ’symptoms’ that you can have is quite mind-boggling in its variety.  It’s never boring, anyway. The good news is that this is a normal transition — our bodies are meant to do this.  And you’ve found in a.s.m. a very friendly, humerous, supportive, and knowledgable bunch of women (and a few men) with whom you can discuss the things that puzzle you, frustrate you, irritate you, etc.   We also go Off Topic a lot because we’re a chatty bunch and enjoy hanging out together.

Yeah, that’s pretty much what I was going to say.  :-)  So I’ll just say welcome, Christine.   Chakolate — Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.   –Carl Jung

Response:

"Christine Geary" <cge…@epix.net

wrote in

news:QGebc.77$17.9657@news1.epix.net:

Thanks for all the information that you gave me; it helped me a lot.  The next time that I go to my doctor, I’ll mention this to him.

One thing you might want to do is to ask your doctor for an e-mail address.   Then when you have those questions at home that you forgot to ask, you have a way to ask them.   I’ve never had a doctor who declined such a request. Chakolate — Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.   –Carl Jung

Response:

I would say that my depression is about an 7.  Also, this depression seemed to have started about a week before my period started. I hope this helps. Christine

Response:

"Christine Geary" <cge…@epix.net

wrote in

news:w7kbc.85$17.13868@news1.epix.net:

I would say that my depression is about an 7.  Also, this depression seemed to have started about a week before my period started.

How long has it gone on?  If more than two weeks, you should really see your doctor.  I don’t say you have to take a pill, but you should be aware of your options.   Chak — Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.   –Carl Jung

Response:

Christine Geary wrote:

I would say that my depression is about an 7.  Also, this depression seemed to have started about a week before my period started. I hope this helps.

Hi, Christine, and welcome to asm. When I was in perimenopause I’d get depressed for about a week before my period, on top of what I later found out was a mild depression (dysthymia) I’d experienced for much of my adult life.  That week would be much worse – I’d feel very irritable, down in the dumps, cried easily, and sometimes just wanted to crawl into a hole.  It would ease off when my period started.  (I didn’t notice the relationship until I started charting my periods, and other physical and mental changes.) I’d never had PMS until then, but by then it seemed as if I had it in spades. Does any of this sound familiar to you? I didn’t initially recognize it as PMS, just thought I was really getting depressed, and finally saw a shrink.  I took Paxil and did a run of cognitive-behavioral therapy (which helped for a variety of reasons).   The depression eased up considerably. Hopes this helps – FurPaw

Response:

Question:

Gaining and attempting to lose 5 real pounds would be a very dangerous strategy for a middle aged woman to try. I have been trying to lose 3 lbs for the past three months and finding it completely impossible.

Reporting in on my "Days of Aunt Flo Meat Fast" — DH and I each lost 4 lbs (though 2 lbs of mine was the weight I’d put on from the GTT, I think, which may not really count that much).  I think we’ll try this each month and see if we can break through our lowest weight — we’ve both stalled out at a weight that we’d been at for awhile in the past.

Response:

You can’t lose 3 pounds? You’ve got to be an idiot. — Most of us probably aren’t in danger of eating too little. Becky P.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gaining and attempting to lose 5 real pounds would be a very dangerous strategy for a middle aged woman to try. I have been trying to lose 3 lbs for the past three months and finding it completely impossible. When I went off low carb a couple years ago I gained 10 lbs very quickly and they would not come off at all. Not even with a return to strict low carbing. I had to stay off low carb for almost a year to get back to where I could lose weight, and it was probably because I took a drug that helped for a while that I could lose. But meanwhile all the time I spent when I was fat with higher than normal blood sugars did a job on my blood pressure that has not reversed with weight loss. — Jenny  - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my  email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes, strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit  http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm Would it be proper to say that this gaining/losing 5 lbs can be accomplished by period fasting? I don’t think so? I wish I still knew where my book was. He has a specific method of feeding up, and then losing while watching your weight VERY carefully. (as in EVERY day) Basically it takes you longer and longer to gain those 5 pounds (with the set amount of higher calories) until you just don’t anymore. LCing since 12/01/03- Me- 5′7" 265/219/140 & hubby- 6′ 310/238/180

Response:

Gaining and attempting to lose 5 real pounds would be a very dangerous strategy for a middle aged woman to try. I have been trying to lose 3 lbs for the past three months and finding it completely impossible. When I went off low carb a couple years ago I gained 10 lbs very quickly and they would not come off at all. Not even with a return to strict low carbing. I had to stay off low carb for almost a year to get back to where I could lose weight, and it was probably because I took a drug that helped for a while that I could lose. But meanwhile all the time I spent when I was fat with higher than normal blood sugars did a job on my blood pressure that has not reversed with weight loss. — Jenny  - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my  email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes, strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit  http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Would it be proper to say that this gaining/losing 5 lbs can be accomplished by period fasting? I don’t think so? I wish I still knew where my book was. He has a specific method of feeding up, and then losing while watching your weight VERY carefully. (as in EVERY day) Basically it takes you longer and longer to gain those 5 pounds (with the set amount of higher calories) until you just don’t anymore. LCing since 12/01/03- Me- 5′7" 265/219/140 & hubby- 6′ 310/238/180

Response:

But pretty much at the one-year anniversary of starting lo-carbing, five pounds popped back on when I wasn’t doing much of anything different.  Actually, I was hoping I was pregnant and started charting in FitDay, and I was surprised at how low my caloric intake was, and in the middle of all this, five extra pounds.

In "Permanent Results Without Permanent Dieting" (the Curves book, I see it at Costco all the time) he has an interesting process to raise your metabolism through gaining and losing 5 pounds repeatedly. I’ve seen it work for some people, you might want to check it out.

Response:

Would it be proper to say that this gaining/losing 5 lbs can be accomplished by period fasting?

I don’t think so? I wish I still knew where my book was. He has a specific method of feeding up, and then losing while watching your weight VERY carefully. (as in EVERY day) Basically it takes you longer and longer to gain those 5 pounds (with the set amount of higher calories) until you just don’t anymore. LCing since 12/01/03- Me- 5′7" 265/219/140 & hubby- 6′ 310/238/180

Response:

Lee, I had hoped that carbing up and keeping calories the same would avoid slow down, but clearly it hasn’t. But even when I carb up, I don’t go much over 80g because I try to keep my diabetic blood sugars normal. In the past when I ran into the same problem after 3 years of low carbing, I tried super-carbing up (with a diabetes med) and keeping calories low and put on 10 pounds so fast it wasn’t funny.  Then I put on another 10 pounds and ended up with out of control blood pressure. I don’t want to try that again! My doctor took one look at me today and said I really did not look like myself at all, so he ordered a bunch of tests, including Free T3 and some stuff for the parathyroid (since I’ve been having a bunch o f bone problems). I’ll know if they showed anything in a week. — Jenny  - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my  email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes, strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit  http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We would want to carb up after a long time of low carbing because: 1. Long time low carbing depresses the metabolism for some of us. When I started lo-carbing, the twenty pounds that I had put on suddenly for no apparent reason (no one believed me, but then it turned out this is a common symptom of PCOS, which I have to some degree) came right off, and I maintained the weight easily for almost a year. But pretty much at the one-year anniversary of starting lo-carbing, five pounds popped back on when I wasn’t doing much of anything different.  Actually, I was hoping I was pregnant and started charting in FitDay, and I was surprised at how low my caloric intake was, and in the middle of all this, five extra pounds. So, Jenny, does carbing up for awhile and then going back low carb help with this?  I’m on a meat/fat/egg fast right now for the Days of AF, to see if that will break through the stall……

Response:

We would want to carb up after a long time of low carbing because: 1. Long time low carbing depresses the metabolism for some of us.

When I started lo-carbing, the twenty pounds that I had put on suddenly for no apparent reason (no one believed me, but then it turned out this is a common symptom of PCOS, which I have to some degree) came right off, and I maintained the weight easily for almost a year. But pretty much at the one-year anniversary of starting lo-carbing, five pounds popped back on when I wasn’t doing much of anything different.  Actually, I was hoping I was pregnant and started charting in FitDay, and I was surprised at how low my caloric intake was, and in the middle of all this, five extra pounds. So, Jenny, does carbing up for awhile and then going back low carb help with this?  I’m on a meat/fat/egg fast right now for the Days of AF, to see if that will break through the stall……

Response:

Ig, What symptoms I don’t like are these: Over the last thee months I’ve been slowly gaining weight while eating at a calorie level that is the same or a bit lower than what I was eating all last spring when the weight was coming off and all summer and fall when I was maintaining. When I tried cutting my calories and carbs back even more for a quite a few weeks to see if I could knock off the weight, it did not result in any weight loss but it did result in my feeling like dead dog meat. My body seems to have decided sometime last winter that it needed to hibernate to conserve my remaining fat. I’m always falling asleep and freezing and my skin is drying out too. Classic thyroid symptoms. — Jenny  - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my  email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes, strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit  http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We would want to carb up after a long time of low carbing because: 1. Long time low carbing depresses the metabolism for some of us. I’ve run into this in the past, and it is happening to me again, 1 1/2 years in. If I don’t carb up my metabolisms gets progressively slower.  I recently completely 2 weeks of eating very low carb at a calorie level that is lower than my maintenance calories and not only didn’t I lose a pound, I ended up feeling so dead it was not worth it. Dr. Bernstein acknowledges that this is a problem with long term low carbing and prescribes thyroid medicine for it. It would be better, I think to avoid taking out your thyroid if your blood sugar can take a rise. 2. Carbing up to moderate levels after you reach your goal can prevent long term diet burn-out. You may be enthusiastic about this WOE now, but in 2 or 3 years things change. What you don’t want to do is crash off the diet and regain all the weight–a pattern reported by far too many once-successful low carbers. Controlled moderate carb-ups can prevent this from happening for many people. Jenny, may I ask you, just what is wrong with a slowing down metabolism. What symptoms of it do you not like? i

Response:

Mirek, /snip/ That you did so well on a low carb diet suggests that you may have marginal blood sugar, but I would not panic. http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/risk.htm discusses how to test your own blood and what to look for.

Here’s a list of several kinds of hypoglycemia. It might be good to add "Relative Hypoglycemia" to your list. I’ve been confused because I can be feeling a rush or a crash at the same ‘absolute’ number, depending on whether the BG is going up or down. http://www.hypoglycemia.asn.au/articles/what_is_hypo.html There are several forms that the hypoglycemic syndrome can take and we will adopt Dr. Samra’s classification; Type 1, Relative Hypoglycemia. Following ingestion of glucose the blood sugar level rises unusually high (due to insulin resistance) and then suddenly drops. The rate of descent should be over 2.6mm/L (45 mg/100mL) in any hour, or over 1.6mm/l (30mg/100mL) in any 1/2 hour. Type 2, Absolute Hypoglycemia. This is any blood glucose recorded below the lower limit of 3.4mm/L (60mg/100mL). Type 3, Combined Hypoglycemia. This is also known as

Question:

Dear Victoria, Since you appear to be so adamantly opposed to natural progesterone, I am wondering if you have ever tried it yourself? Also, I am not an anonymous poster, I certainly do not have a financial interest in NPC, and frankly I am more than a little offended by your suggestion that those who post out of genuine empathy trying to help others who share our disease would be doing so out of a financial interest.  I post on all sorts of topics, always helping people, and every day I get numerous responses from people grateful for my assistance, which comes out of nothing but a desire to help others in similar situations to mine — and I am constantly reading posts that are helpful to me; that is what makes these support groups run. More than anything, my suggestions of NPC come out of a concern for the dangers of Lupron, and the severity of hysterectomy (which does help some women, but for many it does not), and the importance of women knowing that there are alternatives to these drastic measures. Whenver I have suggested NPC to anyone, it has been in response to their   asking for help, and I state that I have not personally tried it, but have corresponded with many women for whom it has worked.  Many of these women I am quite familiar with and aware that they have nothing but genuine motivation to help others and they have been posting for years about many other subjects besides NPC.  Many of them have experienced the horrors of Lupron, and are so grateful to find something that works naturally without side effects they have an instinct to share this information with others. I usually suggest NPC as an option among many other options, and openly share my history battling endometriosis which was successful without the use of NPC.  I don’t care how a woman finds relief for her pain, just that she finds relief, and doesn’t give up or resort to something extreme that will likely cause her more pain. We are all here to support eachother, and I ask you kindly to rescind your comments suggesting that people like me are posting out of a financial interest, because I find this highly insulting as well as counterproductive to the purpose of this message board.  How would you feel if I suggested that you have a financial interest in posting as you do?  From whence does all this bitterness of yours come?  Let’s try to deal with eachother on friendly and supportive terms here, rather than alienating eachother and attempting to instill paranoid ideas here. I’m sorry for such a negative post, everyone, but I was quite hurt by the tone and content of Victoria’s message. Victoria — I will await your apology. Amy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Before you consider trying the progesterone creams, I made an investigation into them into a webpage: (http://nichollsvi.tripod.com/p_cream.html). The issues I mainly deal with are: 1) the FDA (regulatory body in America) and its legal stance on the products being in violation of current laws. 2) the lack of facts or science (validity) behind the product and theories of Dr. John Lee (started it all), taken from doctor comments, Medline, and other reliable medical science sites. There is no evidence to support that it is anything other than a placebo. 3) Other information, including a promotion from a heavily promoted website, where you become an ‘associate’ of, earning $ on books to ‘get the most’ out of progesterone creams (Letter I, #2). 4) Beware of anecdotal evidence compared to scientific evidence. There is inherent bias in anecdotal evidence, while things like the natural progession of a disease getting better is ignored, (i.e. I drank a lot of X and I got better from a cold, when you just got better anyway because the disease ran its course). See C, b, #15, 16, 18, 20 regarding Medline evidence against usage of creams. Questions to ask yourself before using this product: 1) Prometrium is a natural plant based progesterone made by Solvay. Why use something unproven or reputed    to not fulfill its claims (creams) in medical studies instead of a proven medication (Prometrium)? 2) Where does the ‘natural progesterone’ in these creams comes from? Isn’t it manufactured, and how    does that process change the progesterone? What is the effect of the fillers on the body? 3) If Nivia hair removal cream isn’t absorbed in the body, why would progesterone creams be absorbed? 4) Where is there any evidence to show that progesterone binds to red blood cells to get into the blood stream? 5) How can you be sure that out of so many anonymous postings, none of these people have other interests    (ie financial), stand to benefit, or ties to progesterone cream makers or sellers? Mine are required due to my    participation in several ethical groups. Always do thorough medical based research on anything you take that is given a reputation to alleviate, cure, treat or deal with a specific problem or problems. It may be in violation of the law, or there might be no evidence to support it. www.quackwatch.com, http://www.quackfiles.com, http://quackbusters.quackfiles.com are good places to start to review all sorts of questionable health products and practices. The site was recently updated, and I have a few more articles from The Lancet, an English medical journal, I’ll be adding soon.. What you might want to do is try Prometrium and see if that works for you. Think about it, for endometriosis, having a period can be a tough thing. Do you want to have a period, and if the product doesn’t work, are you willing to risk a greater chance of endometrial cancer if it doesn’t? Victoria High Again… Wife is in the middle of her 3rd injection of Depo-Provera and it is helping some.  What we notice is the pain comes bac about 9 weeks into the 12 weeks of the shot.  I was just reading info from http://www.endo101.com/thyroid.htm about thyroid symptoms and high estrogen…my jaw almost hit the floor.  We have been to the Doctor 3 times to find all the syrum thyroid levels to be above the middle line of normal and a TSH under 2.0 Has any1 had luck with the cream?  It seems to me that it may work since the provera does for the most part and she can maintain steady levels unlike the provera.  I think its well worth a try.  Also im curious if you can overlap treatments since there is still a few weeks left of her Provera injection. JoeMcC

Response:

Hello, Joe – I don’t have experience with depo provera, but I’ve started using progesterone cream for about a month so far.  Not enough time to see if it’s going to help, but I’m hopeful.  Maybe this web site will help – maybe not. (www.johnleemd.com) He’s a big supporter of it, and there is a lot of information.  Not necessarily endo information, but check it out if you have time. I hope all goes well. dutchie

Response:

Hi Joe, Just read your post, wanted to say good on you for showing such a concerning interest in your wife’s condition, I’m really impressed.  If more hobbies were the same, life would be a lot easier for a lot of us women out there were similar conditions and issues. I only take the Provera tablets and have had to do so now for about a month. According to my husband I have been a total cow (I blame his family at Xmas!!) and after researching side affects, irritability was one of them.  I have only  just found out I have this condition, as well as others since finding out a month ago, have already had my first operation, but don’t feel anywhere as sorry for myself since I started reading the posts from everyone else.  There’s always someone worse isn’t there. Anyway, best of luck to you and your wife, KylieB

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – High Again… Wife is in the middle of her 3rd injection of Depo-Provera and it is helping some.  What we notice is the pain comes bac about 9 weeks into the 12 weeks of the shot.  I was just reading info from http://www.endo101.com/thyroid.htm about thyroid symptoms and high estrogen…my jaw almost hit the floor.  We have been to the Doctor 3 times to find all the syrum thyroid levels to be above the middle line of normal and a TSH under 2.0 Has any1 had luck with the cream?  It seems to me that it may work since the provera does for the most part and she can maintain steady levels unlike the provera.  I think its well worth a try.  Also im curious if you can overlap treatments since there is still a few weeks left of her Provera injection. JoeMcC

Response:

snip If more hobbies were the same, life would be a lot easier for a lot of us women out there

Kylie, This made me smile.  I’ll have to start thinking of my husband as a hobby from now on! dutchie

Response:

Before you consider trying the progesterone creams, I made an investigation into them into a webpage: (http://nichollsvi.tripod.com/p_cream.html). The issues I mainly deal with are: 1) the FDA (regulatory body in America) and its legal stance on the products being in violation of current laws. 2) the lack of facts or science (validity) behind the product and theories of Dr. John Lee (started it all), taken from doctor comments, Medline, and other reliable medical science sites. There is no evidence to support that it is anything other than a placebo. 3) Other information, including a promotion from a heavily promoted website, where you become an ‘associate’ of, earning $ on books to ‘get the most’ out of progesterone creams (Letter I, #2). 4) Beware of anecdotal evidence compared to scientific evidence. There is inherent bias in anecdotal evidence, while things like the natural progession of a disease getting better is ignored, (i.e. I drank a lot of X and I got better from a cold, when you just got better anyway because the disease ran its course). See C, b, #15, 16, 18, 20 regarding Medline evidence against usage of creams. Questions to ask yourself before using this product: 1) Prometrium is a natural plant based progesterone made by Solvay. Why use something unproven or reputed    to not fulfill its claims (creams) in medical studies instead of a proven medication (Prometrium)? 2) Where does the ‘natural progesterone’ in these creams comes from? Isn’t it manufactured, and how    does that process change the progesterone? What is the effect of the fillers on the body? 3) If Nivia hair removal cream isn’t absorbed in the body, why would progesterone creams be absorbed? 4) Where is there any evidence to show that progesterone binds to red blood cells to get into the blood stream? 5) How can you be sure that out of so many anonymous postings, none of these people have other interests    (ie financial), stand to benefit, or ties to progesterone cream makers or sellers? Mine are required due to my    participation in several ethical groups. Always do thorough medical based research on anything you take that is given a reputation to alleviate, cure, treat or deal with a specific problem or problems. It may be in violation of the law, or there might be no evidence to support it. www.quackwatch.com, http://www.quackfiles.com, http://quackbusters.quackfiles.com are good places to start to review all sorts of questionable health products and practices. The site was recently updated, and I have a few more articles from The Lancet, an English medical journal, I’ll be adding soon. What you might want to do is try Prometrium and see if that works for you. Think about it, for endometriosis, having a period can be a tough thing. Do you want to have a period, and if the product doesn’t work, are you willing to risk a greater chance of endometrial cancer if it doesn’t? Victoria – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – High Again… Wife is in the middle of her 3rd injection of Depo-Provera and it is helping some.  What we notice is the pain comes bac about 9 weeks into the 12 weeks of the shot.  I was just reading info from http://www.endo101.com/thyroid.htm about thyroid symptoms and high estrogen…my jaw almost hit the floor.  We have been to the Doctor 3 times to find all the syrum thyroid levels to be above the middle line of normal and a TSH under 2.0 Has any1 had luck with the cream?  It seems to me that it may work since the provera does for the most part and she can maintain steady levels unlike the provera.  I think its well worth a try.  Also im curious if you can overlap treatments since there is still a few weeks left of her Provera injection. JoeMcC

Response:

High Again… Wife is in the middle of her 3rd injection of Depo-Provera and it is helping some.  What we notice is the pain comes bac about 9 weeks into the 12 weeks of the shot.  I was just reading info from http://www.endo101.com/thyroid.htm about thyroid symptoms and high estrogen…my jaw almost hit the floor.  We have been to the Doctor 3 times to find all the syrum thyroid levels to be above the middle line of normal and a TSH under 2.0 Has any1 had luck with the cream?  It seems to me that it may work since the provera does for the most part and she can maintain steady levels unlike the provera.  I think its well worth a try.  Also im curious if you can overlap treatments since there is still a few weeks left of her Provera injection. JoeMcC

Response:

One other note that I forgot to mention — your post talks about "anonymous posters" but I don’t see a single anonymous poster here, not to mention one that has responded to Joe’s post.  All of those posters are regular posters here and signed their names and email addresses. Of course a person should do research on any medical treatment, and not follow blindly advice given over the internet — that goes without saying — but no one suggested that they should, and this rule applies to ANY post, including yours, on ANY topic; it is not particular to those who post in favor of natural progesterone cream.  And when you are talking about a bunch of regular identified posters, who are known to the community, who themselves have endometriosis, who have never tried to "push" the cream, but only responded to inquiries by telling their own honest personal experience, in a support group that operates on the assumption that we are all here trying to help eachother, when you have no cause for suspicion whatsoever, that kind of talk is just hurtful and insulting to us all. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Before you consider trying the progesterone creams, I made an investigation into them into a webpage: (http://nichollsvi.tripod.com/p_cream.html). The issues I mainly deal with are: 1) the FDA (regulatory body in America) and its legal stance on the products being in violation of current laws. 2) the lack of facts or science (validity) behind the product and theories of Dr. John Lee (started it all), taken from doctor comments, Medline, and other reliable medical science sites. There is no evidence to support that it is anything other than a placebo. 3) Other information, including a promotion from a heavily promoted website, where you become an ‘associate’ of, earning $ on books to ‘get the most’ out of progesterone creams (Letter I, #2). 4) Beware of anecdotal evidence compared to scientific evidence. There is inherent bias in anecdotal evidence, while things like the natural progession of a disease getting better is ignored, (i.e. I drank a lot of X and I got better from a cold, when you just got better anyway because the disease ran its course). See C, b, #15, 16, 18, 20 regarding Medline evidence against usage of creams. Questions to ask yourself before using this product: 1) Prometrium is a natural plant based progesterone made by Solvay. Why use something unproven or reputed    to not fulfill its claims (creams) in medical studies instead of a proven medication (Prometrium)? 2) Where does the ‘natural progesterone’ in these creams comes from? Isn’t it manufactured, and how    does that process change the progesterone? What is the effect of the fillers on the body? 3) If Nivia hair removal cream isn’t absorbed in the body, why would progesterone creams be absorbed? 4) Where is there any evidence to show that progesterone binds to red blood cells to get into the blood stream? 5) How can you be sure that out of so many anonymous postings, none of these people have other interests    (ie financial), stand to benefit, or ties to progesterone cream makers or sellers? Mine are required due to my    participation in several ethical groups. Always do thorough medical based research on anything you take that is given a reputation to alleviate, cure, treat or deal with a specific problem or problems. It may be in violation of the law, or there might be no evidence to support it. www.quackwatch.com, http://www.quackfiles.com, http://quackbusters.quackfiles.com are good places to start to review all sorts of questionable health products and practices. The site was recently updated, and I have a few more articles from The Lancet, an English medical journal, I’ll be adding soon. What you might want to do is try Prometrium and see if that works for you. Think about it, for endometriosis, having a period can be a tough thing. Do you want to have a period, and if the product doesn’t work, are you willing to risk a greater chance of endometrial cancer if it doesn’t? Victoria High Again… Wife is in the middle of her 3rd injection of Depo-Provera and it is helping some.  What we notice is the pain comes bac about 9 weeks into the 12 weeks of the shot.  I was just reading info from http://www.endo101.com/thyroid.htm about thyroid symptoms and high estrogen…my jaw almost hit the floor.  We have been to the Doctor 3 times to find all the syrum thyroid levels to be above the middle line of normal and a TSH under 2.0 Has any1 had luck with the cream?  It seems to me that it may work since the provera does for the most part and she can maintain steady levels unlike the provera.  I think its well worth a try.  Also im curious if you can overlap treatments since there is still a few weeks left of her Provera injection. JoeMcC

Response:

Hey thanks for the link, Amy – I didn’t know WebMD had an endo board.  I’ll keep you updated if I notice any differences.  Meanwhile, the directions say to stop using it the day before your cycle starts.  That day was over 2 1/2 weeks ago.  I guess it would help if I had a normal 28-day cycle. dutchie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Dutchie, As far as women who have been taking NPC for endo symptoms, there are quite a few of them on the WebMD endo board.  That’s where I first heard about the idea.  One woman there has been taking it for 8 1/2 years and her endo has been totally kept under control by it. If you want to visit the forum, here’s the address: http://boards.webmd.com/roundtable_new/29 But definitely keep us updated on how it’s going for you. Hello, Victoria — You obviously have some strong feelings about this.  As for myself, I had heard about natural progerstone cream way before I ever heard of Dr. Lee.  I only heard about him about two weeks ago while reading stuff on hystersisters.com, and I thought he had some interesting info.  I’ve been reading about natural progesterone cream for about six or seven years, and have never heard anything negative about it.  As I said in my previous post, I’ve yet to hear any positive info regarding endo symptoms, but I’m willing to try it for a few months.  Especially since I have PCOS.  What’s the harm other than my spending money?  I buy mine through Life Extensions.  I’ve been a member of that for three years, and have only bought the cream a month or so ago, so I don’t feel like they’ve conned me into buying it. I don’t think you meant to imply that any of us who use it are trying to make a buck by convincing others to use it, did you?  If there’s someone who is willing to give me a dollar every time I mention it, I’m more than happy to check in.  (progesterone cream progesterone cream proges – ok I’m bored with that joke now.) I was pretty surprised by your intense response.  Have you been harmed by this stuff?  I’d really be interested in knowing.  I can’t find any feedback from endo women.  I read posts that so-and-so started taking it, and then never hear anything more.  Did you have bad side effects?  Was there any change in your endo symptoms?  How about mood-wise (since our hormones have such influences on things like that)?  Weight gain?  Greasy hair/face? Night sweats?  Did it regulate your cycle or cause it to be irregular? I’m really interested, because I want to hear from a real live person what their experiences have been, not just a web site. I (for one) would certainly appreciate any info you can share regarding personal experience with natural progesterone cream.  If I notice anything, I’ll certainly share with anyone who is willing to listen, too. dutchie

Response:

Hello, Victoria — You obviously have some strong feelings about this.  As for myself, I had heard about natural progerstone cream way before I ever heard of Dr. Lee.  I only heard about him about two weeks ago while reading stuff on hystersisters.com, and I thought he had some interesting info.  I’ve been reading about natural progesterone cream for about six or seven years, and have never heard anything negative about it.  As I said in my previous post, I’ve yet to hear any positive info regarding endo symptoms, but I’m willing to try it for a few months.  Especially since I have PCOS.  What’s the harm other than my spending money?  I buy mine through Life Extensions.  I’ve been a member of that for three years, and have only bought the cream a month or so ago, so I don’t feel like they’ve conned me into buying it.  I don’t think you meant to imply that any of us who use it are trying to make a buck by convincing others to use it, did you?  If there’s someone who is willing to give me a dollar every time I mention it, I’m more than happy to check in.  (progesterone cream progesterone cream proges – ok I’m bored with that joke now.) I was pretty surprised by your intense response.  Have you been harmed by this stuff?  I’d really be interested in knowing.  I can’t find any feedback from endo women.  I read posts that so-and-so started taking it, and then never hear anything more.  Did you have bad side effects?  Was there any change in your endo symptoms?  How about mood-wise (since our hormones have such influences on things like that)?  Weight gain?  Greasy hair/face? Night sweats?  Did it regulate your cycle or cause it to be irregular?  I’m really interested, because I want to hear from a real live person what their experiences have been, not just a web site. I (for one) would certainly appreciate any info you can share regarding personal experience with natural progesterone cream.  If I notice anything, I’ll certainly share with anyone who is willing to listen, too. dutchie

Response:

Hi Joe, If you don’t get enough information here, you might want to try the EndoNatural group on Yahoo.  Many women there are using NPC, as well as various other natural remedies to treat endometriosis. I have not tried it myself (because CBCPs worked for me), but I have read of a lot of women that have had success with it. Here’s the address: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/endonatural/ Good luck and best wishes to your wife! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – High Again… Wife is in the middle of her 3rd injection of Depo-Provera and it is helping some.  What we notice is the pain comes bac about 9 weeks into the 12 weeks of the shot.  I was just reading info from http://www.endo101.com/thyroid.htm about thyroid symptoms and high estrogen…my jaw almost hit the floor.  We have been to the Doctor 3 times to find all the syrum thyroid levels to be above the middle line of normal and a TSH under 2.0 Has any1 had luck with the cream?  It seems to me that it may work since the provera does for the most part and she can maintain steady levels unlike the provera.  I think its well worth a try.  Also im curious if you can overlap treatments since there is still a few weeks left of her Provera injection. JoeMcC

Response:

Victoria You do have some issues to work on……It would be interesting for you to fill us in on the evident anger you have towards our regular, open identity posters. I have been posting here for over 7 years.  I give opinions of what has worked for me.  I have never benfited from any advise nor am I associated with any "group"  other than my fellow  Endo Sisters. I had a hyst in July 2002.  I take prometrium and use an estrodiol (bioiedentical estrogen) and also use Estrace cream.  I feel my Estrace gets abosorbed and works – why wouldn’t NPC…..? I think everyone does a lot of research before we put things in our bodies.  Along with that – going to a group of women and asking what they have tried and what has worked, is  perfectly acceptable. Nothing works the same way with all people. I tried Lupron and still have side effects years later. But for many women it has worked wonders. I ask a lot of questions to this group – I have built a level of trust with these women – and do more research if there are a lot of negative responses. I did that with Lupron and made a choice to take it , and there were many responses to that question, many negative. You are making a HUGE statement of how many "anonymous" posters we have here. We get our usual "drop-ins"  just like the other sites do, with those who make big claims on a supplement they are taking – and most of us can identify them and ignore the posts. What is your interest in "pushing" Prometrium?  Are you getting a there are many women who can’t take Prometrium for one reason or another – JUST LIKE ANY OTHER SUBSTANCE – that exists in our world. Hope you find another place to expel your anger over this issue, it is Kim W – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Before you consider trying the progesterone creams, I made an investigation into them into a webpage: (http://nichollsvi.tripod.com/p_cream.html). The issues I mainly deal with are: 1) the FDA (regulatory body in America) and its legal stance on the products being in violation of current laws. 2) the lack of facts or science (validity) behind the product and theories of Dr. John Lee (started it all), taken from doctor comments, Medline, and other reliable medical science sites. There is no evidence to support that it is anything other than a placebo. 3) Other information, including a promotion from a heavily promoted website, where you become an ‘associate’ of, earning $ on books to ‘get the most’ out of progesterone creams (Letter I, #2). 4) Beware of anecdotal evidence compared to scientific evidence. There is inherent bias in anecdotal evidence, while things like the natural progession of a disease getting better is ignored, (i.e. I drank a lot of X and I got better from a cold, when you just got better anyway because the disease ran its course). See C, b, #15, 16, 18, 20 regarding Medline evidence against usage of creams. Questions to ask yourself before using this product: 1) Prometrium is a natural plant based progesterone made by Solvay. Why use something unproven or reputed   to not fulfill its claims (creams) in medical studies instead of a proven medication (Prometrium)? 2) Where does the ‘natural progesterone’ in these creams comes from? Isn’t it manufactured, and how   does that process change the progesterone? What is the effect of the fillers on the body? 3) If Nivia hair removal cream isn’t absorbed in the body, why would progesterone creams be absorbed? 4) Where is there any evidence to show that progesterone binds to red blood cells to get into the blood stream? 5) How can you be sure that out of so many anonymous postings, none of these people have other interests   (ie financial), stand to benefit, or ties to progesterone cream makers or sellers? Mine are required due to my   participation in several ethical groups. Always do thorough medical based research on anything you take that is given a reputation to alleviate, cure, treat or deal with a specific problem or problems. It may be in violation of the law, or there might be no evidence to support it. www.quackwatch.com, http://www.quackfiles.com, http://quackbusters.quackfiles.com are good places to start to review all sorts of questionable health products and practices. The site was recently updated, and I have a few more articles from The Lancet, an English medical journal, I’ll be adding soon. What you might want to do is try Prometrium and see if that works for you. Think about it, for endometriosis, having a period can be a tough thing. Do you want to have a period, and if the product doesn’t work, are you willing to risk a greater chance of endometrial cancer if it doesn’t? Victoria High Again… Wife is in the middle of her 3rd injection of Depo-Provera and it is helping some.  What we notice is the pain comes bac about 9 weeks into the 12 weeks of the shot.  I was just reading info from http://www.endo101.com/thyroid.htm about thyroid symptoms and high estrogen…my jaw almost hit the floor.  We have been to the Doctor 3 times to find all the syrum thyroid levels to be above the middle line of normal and a TSH under 2.0 Has any1 had luck with the cream?  It seems to me that it may work since the provera does for the most part and she can maintain steady levels unlike the provera.  I think its well worth a try.  Also im curious if you can overlap treatments since there is still a few weeks left of her Provera injection. JoeMcC

Response:

Hi Dutchie, As far as women who have been taking NPC for endo symptoms, there are quite a few of them on the WebMD endo board.  That’s where I first heard about the idea.  One woman there has been taking it for 8 1/2 years and her endo has been totally kept under control by it. If you want to visit the forum, here’s the address: http://boards.webmd.com/roundtable_new/29 But definitely keep us updated on how it’s going for you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Victoria — You obviously have some strong feelings about this.  As for myself, I had heard about natural progerstone cream way before I ever heard of Dr. Lee.  I only heard about him about two weeks ago while reading stuff on hystersisters.com, and I thought he had some interesting info.  I’ve been reading about natural progesterone cream for about six or seven years, and have never heard anything negative about it.  As I said in my previous post, I’ve yet to hear any positive info regarding endo symptoms, but I’m willing to try it for a few months.  Especially since I have PCOS.  What’s the harm other than my spending money?  I buy mine through Life Extensions.  I’ve been a member of that for three years, and have only bought the cream a month or so ago, so I don’t feel like they’ve conned me into buying it.  I don’t think you meant to imply that any of us who use it are trying to make a buck by convincing others to use it, did you?  If there’s someone who is willing to give me a dollar every time I mention it, I’m more than happy to check in.  (progesterone cream progesterone cream proges – ok I’m bored with that joke now.) I was pretty surprised by your intense response.  Have you been harmed by this stuff?  I’d really be interested in knowing.  I can’t find any feedback from endo women.  I read posts that so-and-so started taking it, and then never hear anything more.  Did you have bad side effects?  Was there any change in your endo symptoms?  How about mood-wise (since our hormones have such influences on things like that)?  Weight gain?  Greasy hair/face? Night sweats?  Did it regulate your cycle or cause it to be irregular?  I’m really interested, because I want to hear from a real live person what their experiences have been, not just a web site. I (for one) would certainly appreciate any info you can share regarding personal experience with natural progesterone cream.  If I notice anything, I’ll certainly share with anyone who is willing to listen, too. dutchie

Response:

Yes, CBCPs means Continuous Birth Control Pills.  :) I think that’s ridiculous that they would recommend Lupron or Hysterectomy before even trying CBCPs.  These should be last options not first.  And if Depo Provera makes your wife mean and depressed, chances are Lupron would really do a number on her. Getting a second opinion sounds like a good idea. Good luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – CBCPs as in Continuos Birth control pill? Thanks for help every1….much appreciated. I just think the Doc is nuts to want to do a hyst. so fast.  He says "If Lupron works then do Hyst…cut and dry."  Not willing to try CBCP’s or anything else.  Didnt even want to try Depo-Provera.  Depo makes my wife mean and depressed…so were scrambling to find something else. Also getting a second opinion. Take Care, Joe

Response:

CBCPs as in Continuos Birth control pill? Thanks for help every1….much appreciated. I just think the Doc is nuts to want to do a hyst. so fast.  He says "If Lupron works then do Hyst…cut and dry."  Not willing to try CBCP’s or anything else.  Didnt even want to try Depo-Provera.  Depo makes my wife mean and depressed…so were scrambling to find something else. Also getting a second opinion. Take Care, Joe

Response:

Question:

I excercise 2 or 3 times a week (just got back from a 3 hour walk!) and I take a good multivitamin, selenium, vitamin c, cod liver oil and a few others. I eat alot of red meat so that could be my problem. I eat mostly meat, some cheese, some nuts, veg, bacon. Probably eat 2 or 3 eggs a week. Thanks for your kind advice and help. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Three questions… Could this level be an anomaly? Do you exercise? Do you take any vitamins? Ok, another one How about your fat sources? Fish or BEEF? Getting enough eggs? How about shell fish? While I think the LDL levels are high, I think you can probably deal with them better by diet than anything else. Could you post some of your most frequent foods and supplements so we might be able to offer some constructive suggestions to help you. There are zillions of us that read these groups and someone here is bound to have a suggestion that helped them. Hello everyone. I’m not one for rants but I’m a bit pissed off at the moment! I’ve been on Atkins for 10 months now and I’ve managed to lose lots of weight. However, I still have my family worried about what this WOE is doing to my health. I know it’s only because they care so I thought I would get my cholesterol tested and when they see my great numbers (I had high cholesterol when I started Atkins), I can have an easy life. Unfortunately, it backfired on me! My numbers before were HDL 42.5, LDL 162, Triglycerides 177, total 240. Now my numbers are HDL 54, LDL 243, triglycerides 97, total 316. I know my triglycerides have improved but my LDL and total have shot up and I now have to take medication. I know that most people improve their numbers after a while on low carb, even if the numbers go up at first. Surely 10 months is enough for my cholesterol to improve? Am I overreacting? I don’t know that much about these tests but my LDL seems to be really high. I have no intention of going back to my old way of eating but I’m now considering trying to do a low carb, lower fat diet. Has anyone else had the same problems I’m having. I would really appreciate any advice. Many thanks in advance, Pany

Response:

Let me add this too…… http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2001/june2001_cover_policosanol.html Joe — http://www.jaxworld.com/lowcarb/joe.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone. I’m not one for rants but I’m a bit pissed off at the moment! I’ve been on Atkins for 10 months now and I’ve managed to lose lots of weight. However, I still have my family worried about what this WOE is doing to my health. I know it’s only because they care so I thought I would get my cholesterol tested and when they see my great numbers (I had high cholesterol when I started Atkins), I can have an easy life. Unfortunately, it backfired on me! My numbers before were HDL 42.5, LDL 162, Triglycerides 177, total 240. Now my numbers are HDL 54, LDL 243, triglycerides 97, total 316. I know my triglycerides have improved but my LDL and total have shot up and I now have to take medication. I know that most people improve their numbers after a while on low carb, even if the numbers go up at first. Surely 10 months is enough for my cholesterol to improve? Am I overreacting? I don’t know that much about these tests but my LDL seems to be really high. I have no intention of going back to my old way of eating but I’m now considering trying to do a low carb, lower fat diet. Has anyone else had the same problems I’m having. I would really appreciate any advice. Many thanks in advance, Pany

Response:

I do have some history of heart problems in my family. I going to do some reseach about the different kinds of fat so I can get a better understanding. Many thanks for your advice.

Here’s a link to start with: http://wilstar.com/lowcarb/chem.htm#lipids

Response:

I would really appreciate any advice. Many thanks in advance, Pany

First off, the more blood cholesterol is studied, the weaker the link between it and heart disease gets. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT LOW CHOLESTEROL VALUES, IN THE ABSENCE OF DRUG THERAPY, LOWER HEART DISEASE RISK. Sorry for the shouting, but damn it, it’s the truth and doctors completely ignore it. The only studies to show reduction in heart disease with a reduction in blood lipid levels are those that study the statin drugs. The mechanism by which these drugs lower heart disease is NOT established, and could easily have nothing to do with cholesterol. Indeed, since the latest evidence is that inflammation, not cholesterol levels, is a much stronger predictor of heart disease, AND the statins are anti-inflammatories, it is far more likely that the statins reduce heart disease by reducing inflammation than by reducing cholesterol. Cholesterol changes may be nothing more than a by-product of the drug therapy. However, if you still want to improve your blood lipid profile (which is unlikely to hurt in any case), there are lots of LC ways to do that. First, don’t lower fat, switch fats. Fats high in mono-unsaturates and omega-3 fatty acids (olive, flax oil, nut and nut oils, cold water fish and fish oils) lower LDL and maintain HDL. If you are using ANY trans-fats – margarine, vegetable shortening or partially hydrogenated anything – stop immediately. These raise LDL and lower HDL. Third, exercise – it raises HDLs without increasing LDLS. I do the above for other health reasons, not the  "ideal" cholesterol. My lipid profile is better than yours – LDL 160, HDL 100, Triglycerides 48 – but my doctor wants me to take drugs because my total is 240. I refused – my body, my science experiment – and I’m not dosing it with unproved, possibly toxic substances that all the scientific evidence says is not necessary. Victoria

Response:

My numbers before were HDL 42.5, LDL 162, Triglycerides 177, total 240. Now my numbers are HDL 54, LDL 243, triglycerides 97, total 316. I know my triglycerides have improved but my LDL and total have shot up and I now have to take medication. I know that most people improve their numbers after a while on low carb, even if the numbers go up at first. Surely 10 months is enough for my cholesterol to improve? Am I overreacting? I don’t know that much about these tests but my LDL seems to be really high. I have no intention of going back to my old way of eating but I’m now considering trying to do a low carb, lower fat diet.

Pany, First let me say how much I have always enjoyed reading your posts! Now, as far as lower-fat, low-carb diets go, I am living proof that they can be done very successfully. My body simply can’t tolerate high fat. If I ate a few scoops of whipped cream or mixed up my tuna with a few spoonfuls of mayo, I’d be one sick puppy. My personal plan is a much lower fat version than many of the folks on this ng eat. My menus consist of lots of poultry, fish and sometimes beef, leafy green veggies, and low-carb vegetables and fruits. It sounds much worse than it is-there is so much to eat that I don’t ever get bored and I can eat out at almost any restauarant in the entire world. (Except a pizza joint.) I know the jury is out about whether cholesterol readings have any bearing on heart disease. Some say yes, some say no. I stay away from the debate. I just eat what I know works for me. I’ve managed to go from a few pounds over 180 to 135 (I never subtract it, bad luck) and I feel great. Duffy 180/135/130??? size16/8/?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone. I’m not one for rants but I’m a bit pissed off at the moment! I’ve been on Atkins for 10 months now and I’ve managed to lose lots of weight. However, I still have my family worried about what this WOE is doing to my health. I know it’s only because they care so I thought I would get my cholesterol tested and when they see my great numbers (I had high cholesterol when I started Atkins), I can have an easy life. Unfortunately, it backfired on me! My numbers before were HDL 42.5, LDL 162, Triglycerides 177, total 240. Now my numbers are HDL 54, LDL 243, triglycerides 97, total 316. I know my triglycerides have improved but my LDL and total have shot up and I now have to take medication. I know that most people improve their numbers after a while on low carb, even if the numbers go up at first.

But you have improved your triglycerides so dramatically!  That’s the most important number, according to many researchers. Surely 10 months is enough for my cholesterol to improve? Am I overreacting? I don’t know that much about these tests but my LDL seems to be really high.

You might want to start substituting fish rich in Omega-3 for beef and lamb whenever possible.  Flax seed and oils like evening primrose and borage help, too. I have no intention of going back to my old way of eating but I’m now considering trying to do a low carb, lower fat diet.

I don’t think you should do "lower fat" necessarily, just *different* fats.  Unsaturated fats (like those found in fish and vegetable sources) have been shown to lower LDL.  You may need to substitute unsaturated fat for saturated fat; the improvement in your triglycerides suggests that it’s not the fat itself that’s the culprit. Good luck! T.

Response:

I’m male, 27 years old, 5 foot 7, gone from 248 to 181, no health problems I know of and I fasted for 12 hours before the test. I probably eat too much red meat so that could be my problem. Thanks for your advice and for your help.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been on Atkins for 10 months now and I’ve managed to lose lots of weight. However, I still have my family worried about what this WOE is doing to my health. I know it’s only because they care so I thought I would get my cholesterol tested and when they see my great numbers (I had high cholesterol when I started Atkins), I can have an easy life. Unfortunately, it backfired on me! My numbers before were HDL 42.5, LDL 162, Triglycerides 177, total 240. Now my numbers are HDL 54, LDL 243, triglycerides 97, total 316. I know my triglycerides have improved but my LDL and total have shot up and I now have to take medication. I know that most people improve their numbers after a while on low carb, even if the numbers go up at first. Surely 10 months is enough for my cholesterol to improve? Am I overreacting? I don’t know that much about these tests but my LDL seems to be really high. Could you tell us some more about your situation? Are you male or female? How old are you? How tall are you and how much did you weigh when you started? Now? Do you have any particular health conditions? How long did you fast before your cholesterol test? And what do you typically eat? I have no intention of going back to my old way of eating but I’m now considering trying to do a low carb, lower fat diet. Has anyone else had the same problems I’m having. Most people seem to lower their cholesterol significantly, but an increase in cholesterol levels isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

Response:

I hope some of the suggestions here help. We would definitely like to see you continuing your weight loss journy and living a long life. Have you thought about adding weight training to your workout regime? I think that it is better for people than aerobic and in the case of red meat eaters can be leveraged to build good quality muscle. You also would not have to spend 3 hours at a shot to get good results. 1 hr of weights will do more for you than many hours of aerobics. Many poeple here have said they are much more effective for making them healthy. And doing weights first and following it up with 30 mins of cardio is the best of both worlds.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I excercise 2 or 3 times a week (just got back from a 3 hour walk!) and I take a good multivitamin, selenium, vitamin c, cod liver oil and a few others. I eat alot of red meat so that could be my problem. I eat mostly meat, some cheese, some nuts, veg, bacon. Probably eat 2 or 3 eggs a week. Thanks for your kind advice and help. Three questions… Could this level be an anomaly? Do you exercise? Do you take any vitamins? Ok, another one How about your fat sources? Fish or BEEF? Getting enough eggs? How about shell fish? While I think the LDL levels are high, I think you can probably deal with them better by diet than anything else. Could you post some of your most frequent foods and supplements so we might be able to offer some constructive suggestions to help you. There are zillions of us that read these groups and someone here is bound to have a suggestion that helped them. Hello everyone. I’m not one for rants but I’m a bit pissed off at the moment! I’ve been on Atkins for 10 months now and I’ve managed to lose lots of weight. However, I still have my family worried about what this WOE is doing to my health. I know it’s only because they care so I thought I would get my cholesterol tested and when they see my great numbers (I had high cholesterol when I started Atkins), I can have an easy life. Unfortunately, it backfired on me! My numbers before were HDL 42.5, LDL 162, Triglycerides 177, total 240. Now my numbers are HDL 54, LDL 243, triglycerides 97, total 316. I know my triglycerides have improved but my LDL and total have shot up and I now have to take medication. I know that most people improve their numbers after a while on low carb, even if the numbers go up at first. Surely 10 months is enough for my cholesterol to improve? Am I overreacting? I don’t know that much about these tests but my LDL seems to be really high. I have no intention of going back to my old way of eating but I’m now considering trying to do a low carb, lower fat diet. Has anyone else had the same problems I’m having. I would really appreciate any advice. Many thanks in advance, Pany

Response:

Thank you for the link, it’s very helpful.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My numbers before were HDL 42.5, LDL 162, Triglycerides 177, total 240. Now my numbers are HDL 54, LDL 243, triglycerides 97, total 316. I know my triglycerides have improved but my LDL and total have shot up and I now have to take medication. <snip Below is part of an FAQ at atkinscenter.com. Maybe it will help a little. http://atkinscenter.com/helpatkins/faqs/faqhealth/index.html How will doing Atkins help to lower my cholesterol? There are two sources of energy to fuel our bodies: glucose and fat. When you sufficiently restrict carbohydrates you will force your body to predominantly burn fat for energy. When you burn dietary fat for energy, it is metabolizes rather than gets stored and therefore poses no serious health risks. Your stored body fat is also burned. That’s why not long after you start doing Atkins, a blood test will reveal a lower level of triglycerides, which will bring down your total cholesterol and raise your good (HDL) cholesterol. Since I have been on Atkins, my cholesterol has gone up. Why? And what can I do about it? First, look at what you’ve been eating. Have you been following Atkins correctly? If you are just starting the Induction phase, be sure you stay below 20 grams of carbohydrates a day as recommended. You may also want to consider a couple other things that may be happening. First, the increase might be temporary. When a person loses weight, cholesterol usually rises because the body must break down stored fat for energy. Your total cholesterol should drop within two months. Look at your HDL (known as "good" cholesterol) levels. A rise in total cholesterol levels could even be a good thing, if it’s all attributed to HDL cholesterol. If you’ve been following Atkins for some time and your cholesterol levels have not come down, something else is going on. You may also need to look at a third component of your blood tests: triglycerides. Cholesterol rises in some people when triglycerides drop significantly. If that drop is greater than the LDL increase, your lipid profile may, again, be improved. High cholesterol that has a genetic component usually responds to changes in diet, but may be difficult to address with diet alone. You may still need to take supplements such as pantethine, essential oils, garlic, red rice yeast and fiber. For a detailed discussion of cholesterol-lowering nutrients, see Dr. Atkins’ Vita-Nutrient Solution. Exercise is also an important component as is cutting back on meats processed with nitrates, such as most bacon, sausage and cold cuts, and limiting intake of hard cheese. I am just starting Atkins but my physician says I should be on cholesterol-lowering medication. What should I do? You should see your doctor before embarking on any weight loss program in part to establish benchmarks for your lipid levels, among other health indicators. If you are not presently on medication, suggest that you do Atkins for a couple of months to see if your cholesterol situation improves. You will need to have your blood tests redone after six weeks and likely your total cholesterol and certainly your triglyceride numbers should have decreased. If you are presently taking cholesterol-lowering drugs, you should not stop them without your doctor’s approval. Talk to him or her about decreasing the dosage as you lose weight with a view to eventually getting off them altogether. Everyone should try to reach optimal levels of high HDL and low LDL, but Dr. Atkins does not believe that cholesterol elevations are as important a risk factor as high triglycerides, homocysteine and C-reactive protein.  He does not recommend the use of statin drugs to reduce cholesterol for several reasons, including the potential risk of liver disease, muscle atrophy and, in the case of women, higher risk of cancer. Also, numerous studies on cholesterol-lowering drugs fail to show any extension of life expectancy. At The Atkins Center, we prescribe natural substances that can achieve the same, if not better, results without the risks associated with statin drugs. Virtually every study in which the carbohydrate intake was low enough to convert the body’s primary fuel from glucose to stored fat has shown a drop in total cholesterol and improvements in risk ratios of total cholesterol to HDL with a dramatic decrease in triglycerides. There are a group of studies clearly indicating that elevated triglycerides combined with low HDL (two abnormalities known to be caused by high insulin) are much more predictive of cardiovascular disease than elevated total cholesterol or elevated LDL levels. The Atkins Nutritional Approach helps lower these risk factors. For example, Eric C. Westman, M.D., M.H.S., assistant professor of medicine, Department of Medicine, Duke University conducted such a study to determine the effects of a very controlled carbohydrate nutritional program on body weight and cholesterol levels at the Durham (North Carolina) Veterans Administration Medical Center. The study consisted of 41 overweight healthy volunteers who were put on a controlled carbohydrate program for four months. There was a significant reduction in serum total cholesterol of 6.1percent, reduction in serum triglycerides of 39.9 percent, reduction in cholesterol/HDL ratio of 18.9 percent and a significant increase in HDL of 7.2 percent. The Atkins Center’s clinical practice combines prescribing vitanutrients along with a controlled carbohydrate nutritional program. A majority of them achieve better lipid profiles than they did on their previous regimen. Treatment is always based on an individual’s needs. If the Atkins Nutritional Approach, along with prescribed vitanutrients, fails to lower a patient’s "bad" cholesterol, then we may cautiously prescribe statin drugs for a therapeutic trial.

Response:

I do have some history of heart problems in my family. I going to do some reseach about the different kinds of fat so I can get a better understanding. Many thanks for your advice.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My numbers before were HDL 42.5, LDL 162, Triglycerides 177, total 240. Now my numbers are HDL 54, LDL 243, triglycerides 97, total 316. I know my triglycerides have improved but my LDL and total have shot up and I now have to take medication. I have no intention of going back to my old way of eating but I’m now considering trying to do a low carb, lower fat diet. Has anyone else had the same problems I’m having. You may have let your saturated and trans fat climb too much while on low-carb. Your HDL rose and your triglycerides fell, consistent with what I’ve seen about the effects of low-carbing. You may be able to improve things by continuing to low-carb, but working to keep sat fat lower. Any chance you are getting trans-fats? OTOH, your LDL is quite high. If there’s a family history of heart disease or any other risk factors, a statin may be a reasonable choice. The weight loss is a *big* plus with respect to heart disease, regardless of cholesterol levels. Don’t lose sight of that! — Jim Chinnis   Warrenton,Virginia,USA

Response:

Thanks for your kind words and advice.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Understand how you feel but you should be very pleased with your triglycerides. Tri’s are now recognized as more important than cholesterol as a predictor of stroke and are also thought to be more important for heart attacks too. Also, you might consider pantathine instead of statins.  Works to raise HDL and lower LDL for many people without the side effects.  You can do a net search and read the research for yourself. Good luck and remember that losing the weight is the best thing you can do for your heart. BillJ says… Hello everyone. I’m not one for rants but I’m a bit pissed off at the moment! I’ve been on Atkins for 10 months now and I’ve managed to lose lots of weight. However, I still have my family worried about what this WOE is doing to my health. I know it’s only because they care so I thought I would get my cholesterol tested and when they see my great numbers (I had high cholesterol when I started Atkins), I can have an easy life. Unfortunately, it backfired on me! My numbers before were HDL 42.5, LDL 162, Triglycerides 177, total 240. Now my numbers are HDL 54, LDL 243, triglycerides 97, total 316. I know my triglycerides have improved but my LDL and total have shot up and I now have to take medication. I know that most people improve their numbers after a while on low carb, even if the numbers go up at first. Surely 10 months is enough for my cholesterol to improve? Am I overreacting? I don’t know that much about these tests but my LDL seems to be really high. I have no intention of going back to my old way of eating but I’m now considering trying to do a low carb, lower fat diet. Has anyone else had the same problems I’m having. I would really appreciate any advice. Many thanks in advance, Pany

Response:

I am very disappointed to find such a reply. In answer to your question, I have posted over 1000 messages to this group. I very rarely ask any questions, I normally use google if I need to find out anything. I prefer to give people advice (especially newbies and people in the UK) and give encouragement instead. I haven’t been here as much for the last few months due to personal problems but I can’t believe you can post such an insulting reply. I asked a question, I didn’t ask to be attacked.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 10 months?  Have you been on asdlc at all during that time?  I would guess NO considering the topic has been discussed until the cows came home three times.  Oh.  You were too busy to be bothered to read threads about cholesterol and fats even though the topic concerned you.  Oh well.  Hope the statins reduce the numbers and make everyone happy. Lee Rodgers Message Board  http://lowcarb.org/forums Eat meat, drink water, sip oil and move. IN MY OPINION prefaces anything I’ve written No claims are intended to be medical advice!

Response:

Three questions… Could this level be an anomaly? Do you exercise? Do you take any vitamins? Ok, another one How about your fat sources? Fish or BEEF? Getting enough eggs? How about shell fish? While I think the LDL levels are high, I think you can probably deal with them better by diet than anything else. Could you post some of your most frequent foods and supplements so we might be able to offer some constructive suggestions to help you. There are zillions of us that read these groups and someone here is bound to have a suggestion that helped them.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone. I’m not one for rants but I’m a bit pissed off at the moment! I’ve been on Atkins for 10 months now and I’ve managed to lose lots of weight. However, I still have my family worried about what this WOE is doing to my health. I know it’s only because they care so I thought I would get my cholesterol tested and when they see my great numbers (I had high cholesterol when I started Atkins), I can have an easy life. Unfortunately, it backfired on me! My numbers before were HDL 42.5, LDL 162, Triglycerides 177, total 240. Now my numbers are HDL 54, LDL 243, triglycerides 97, total 316. I know my triglycerides have improved but my LDL and total have shot up and I now have to take medication. I know that most people improve their numbers after a while on low carb, even if the numbers go up at first. Surely 10 months is enough for my cholesterol to improve? Am I overreacting? I don’t know that much about these tests but my LDL seems to be really high. I have no intention of going back to my old way of eating but I’m now considering trying to do a low carb, lower fat diet. Has anyone else had the same problems I’m having. I would really appreciate any advice. Many thanks in advance, Pany

Response:

My numbers before were HDL 42.5, LDL 162, Triglycerides 177, total 240. Now my numbers are HDL 54, LDL 243, triglycerides 97, total 316. I know my triglycerides have improved but my LDL and total have shot up and I now have to take medication.

<snip Below is part of an FAQ at atkinscenter.com. Maybe it will help a little. http://atkinscenter.com/helpatkins/faqs/faqhealth/index.html How will doing Atkins help to lower my cholesterol? There are two sources of energy to fuel our bodies: glucose and fat. When you sufficiently restrict carbohydrates you will force your body to predominantly burn fat for energy. When you burn dietary fat for energy, it is metabolizes rather than gets stored and therefore poses no serious health risks. Your stored body fat is also burned. That’s why not long after you start doing Atkins, a blood test will reveal a lower level of triglycerides, which will bring down your total cholesterol and raise your good (HDL) cholesterol. Since I have been on Atkins, my cholesterol has gone up. Why? And what can I do about it? First, look at what you’ve been eating. Have you been following Atkins correctly? If you are just starting the Induction phase, be sure you stay below 20 grams of carbohydrates a day as recommended. You may also want to consider a couple other things that may be happening. First, the increase might be temporary. When a person loses weight, cholesterol usually rises because the body must break down stored fat for energy. Your total cholesterol should drop within two months. Look at your HDL (known as "good" cholesterol) levels. A rise in total cholesterol levels could even be a good thing, if it’s all attributed to HDL cholesterol. If you’ve been following Atkins for some time and your cholesterol levels have not come down, something else is going on. You may also need to look at a third component of your blood tests: triglycerides. Cholesterol rises in some people when triglycerides drop significantly. If that drop is greater than the LDL increase, your lipid profile may, again, be improved. High cholesterol that has a genetic component usually responds to changes in diet, but may be difficult to address with diet alone. You may still need to take supplements such as pantethine, essential oils, garlic, red rice yeast and fiber. For a detailed discussion of cholesterol-lowering nutrients, see Dr. Atkins’ Vita-Nutrient Solution. Exercise is also an important component as is cutting back on meats processed with nitrates, such as most bacon, sausage and cold cuts, and limiting intake of hard cheese. I am just starting Atkins but my physician says I should be on cholesterol-lowering medication. What should I do? You should see your doctor before embarking on any weight loss program in part to establish benchmarks for your lipid levels, among other health indicators. If you are not presently on medication, suggest that you do Atkins for a couple of months to see if your cholesterol situation improves. You will need to have your blood tests redone after six weeks and likely your total cholesterol and certainly your triglyceride numbers should have decreased. If you are presently taking cholesterol-lowering drugs, you should not stop them without your doctor’s approval. Talk to him or her about decreasing the dosage as you lose weight with a view to eventually getting off them altogether. Everyone should try to reach optimal levels of high HDL and low LDL, but Dr. Atkins does not believe that cholesterol elevations are as important a risk factor as high triglycerides, homocysteine and C-reactive protein.  He does not recommend the use of statin drugs to reduce cholesterol for several reasons, including the potential risk of liver disease, muscle atrophy and, in the case of women, higher risk of cancer. Also, numerous studies on cholesterol-lowering drugs fail to show any extension of life expectancy. At The Atkins Center, we prescribe natural substances that can achieve the same, if not better, results without the risks associated with statin drugs. Virtually every study in which the carbohydrate intake was low enough to convert the body’s primary fuel from glucose to stored fat has shown a drop in total cholesterol and improvements in risk ratios of total cholesterol to HDL with a dramatic decrease in triglycerides. There are a group of studies clearly indicating that elevated triglycerides combined with low HDL (two abnormalities known to be caused by high insulin) are much more predictive of cardiovascular disease than elevated total cholesterol or elevated LDL levels. The Atkins Nutritional Approach helps lower these risk factors. For example, Eric C. Westman, M.D., M.H.S., assistant professor of medicine, Department of Medicine, Duke University conducted such a study to determine the effects of a very controlled carbohydrate nutritional program on body weight and cholesterol levels at the Durham (North Carolina) Veterans Administration Medical Center. The study consisted of 41 overweight healthy volunteers who were put on a controlled carbohydrate program for four months. There was a significant reduction in serum total cholesterol of 6.1percent, reduction in serum triglycerides of 39.9 percent, reduction in cholesterol/HDL ratio of 18.9 percent and a significant increase in HDL of 7.2 percent. The Atkins Center’s clinical practice combines prescribing vitanutrients along with a controlled carbohydrate nutritional program. A majority of them achieve better lipid profiles than they did on their previous regimen. Treatment is always based on an individual’s needs. If the Atkins Nutritional Approach, along with prescribed vitanutrients, fails to lower a patient’s "bad" cholesterol, then we may cautiously prescribe statin drugs for a therapeutic trial.

Response:

Thank you so much for your kind advice. It won’t be easy to get my doctor to agree to the tests but I will try my best. Once again, many thanks for your reply.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I dropped my LDL cholesterol 100 points after starting Armour thyroid.  Do you have thyroid symptoms?  Even if your TSH is in range you may have a sluggish thyroid.  New research shows that your TSH should be around, if not under, 2.0 I recommend you get the following tests and look to see if thyroid may be a cause.  Remember they dont need to be out of range. TSH FreeT4 FreeT3 Also try to get an Antibodies test if you are having symptoms All these may be a fight to get…just to warn you….I had to leave my doc to get the meds i needed…best thing i ever did…i now have my life back and feel great.  Old doc took 6 years of my life by not treating me for Subclinical Hypothyroidism. After the tests get a copy and email me.  If you have a current thyroid test get a copy of that too. BTW here are some of the symptoms Fatigue Depression Modest weight gain Cold intolerance Excessive sleepiness Dry, coarse hair Constipation Dry skin Muscle cramps Increased cholesterol levels Decreased concentration Vague aches and pains Swelling of the legs Carpel tunnel  Joe Hello everyone. I’m not one for rants but I’m a bit pissed off at the moment! I’ve been on Atkins for 10 months now and I’ve managed to lose lots of weight. However, I still have my family worried about what this WOE is doing to my health. I know it’s only because they care so I thought I would get my cholesterol tested and when they see my great numbers (I had high cholesterol when I started Atkins), I can have an easy life. Unfortunately, it backfired on me! My numbers before were HDL 42.5, LDL 162, Triglycerides 177, total 240. Now my numbers are HDL 54, LDL 243, triglycerides 97, total 316. I know my triglycerides have improved but my LDL and total have shot up and I now have to take medication. I know that most people improve their numbers after a while on low carb, even if the numbers go up at first. Surely 10 months is enough for my cholesterol to improve? Am I overreacting? I don’t know that much about these tests but my LDL seems to be really high. I have no intention of going back to my old way of eating but I’m now considering trying to do a low carb, lower fat diet. Has anyone else had the same problems I’m having. I would really appreciate any advice. Many thanks in advance, Pany

Response:

|You may be able to improve things by continuing to low-carb, but working to |keep sat fat lower. Good advice, a bit tough to do when Atkins is spouting the virtues of ham and eggs all over his books. |The weight loss is a *big* plus with respect to heart disease, regardless of |cholesterol levels. Correct.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been on Atkins for 10 months now and I’ve managed to lose lots of weight. However, I still have my family worried about what this WOE is doing to my health. I know it’s only because they care so I thought I would get my cholesterol tested and when they see my great numbers (I had high cholesterol when I started Atkins), I can have an easy life. Unfortunately, it backfired on me! My numbers before were HDL 42.5, LDL 162, Triglycerides 177, total 240. Now my numbers are HDL 54, LDL 243, triglycerides 97, total 316. I know my triglycerides have improved but my LDL and total have shot up and I now have to take medication. I know that most people improve their numbers after a while on low carb, even if the numbers go up at first. Surely 10 months is enough for my cholesterol to improve? Am I overreacting? I don’t know that much about these tests but my LDL seems to be really high.

Could you tell us some more about your situation? Are you male or female? How old are you? How tall are you and how much did you weigh when you started? Now? Do you have any particular health conditions? How long did you fast before your cholesterol test? And what do you typically eat? I have no intention of going back to my old way of eating but I’m now considering trying to do a low carb, lower fat diet. Has anyone else had the same problems I’m having.

Most people seem to lower their cholesterol significantly, but an increase in cholesterol levels isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

Response:

Understand how you feel but you should be very pleased with your triglycerides. Tri’s are now recognized as more important than cholesterol as a predictor of stroke and are also thought to be more important for heart attacks too.  Also, you might consider pantathine instead of statins.  Works to raise HDL and lower LDL for many people without the side effects.  You can do a net search and read the research for yourself. Good luck and remember that losing the weight is the best thing you can do for your heart. BillJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello everyone. I’m not one for rants but I’m a bit pissed off at the moment! I’ve been on Atkins for 10 months now and I’ve managed to lose lots of weight. However, I still have my family worried about what this WOE is doing to my health. I know it’s only because they care so I thought I would get my cholesterol tested and when they see my great numbers (I had high cholesterol when I started Atkins), I can have an easy life. Unfortunately, it backfired on me! My numbers before were HDL 42.5, LDL 162, Triglycerides 177, total 240. Now my numbers are HDL 54, LDL 243, triglycerides 97, total 316. I know my triglycerides have improved but my LDL and total have shot up and I now have to take medication. I know that most people improve their numbers after a while on low carb, even if the numbers go up at first. Surely 10 months is enough for my cholesterol to improve? Am I overreacting? I don’t know that much about these tests but my LDL seems to be really high. I have no intention of going back to my old way of eating but I’m now considering trying to do a low carb, lower fat diet. Has anyone else had the same problems I’m having. I would really appreciate any advice. Many thanks in advance, Pany

Response:

Usual response to this guy… BAH!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – |I know that most people improve their numbers after a while on low carb, Some do but this is a fallacy.  do not believe everyone who reports on the ng about lowered this or that. or even that they have lost weight. I’ll stick with the opinions of the vast majority of cardiological researchers.  High sat fat diets produce the results you have experienced.

Response:

|I know that most people improve their numbers after a while on low carb, Some do but this is a fallacy.  do not believe everyone who reports on the ng about lowered this or that. or even that they have lost weight. I’ll stick with the opinions of the vast majority of cardiological researchers.  High sat fat diets produce the results you have experienced.

Response:

You confirm with every post that you are a ignorant dumbass…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – |I know that most people improve their numbers after a while on low carb, Some do but this is a fallacy.  do not believe everyone who reports on the ng about lowered this or that. or even that they have lost weight. I’ll stick with the opinions of the vast majority of cardiological researchers.  High sat fat diets produce the results you have experienced.

Response:

10 months?  Have you been on asdlc at all during that time?  I would guess NO considering the topic has been discussed until the cows came home three times.  Oh.  You were too busy to be bothered to read threads about cholesterol and fats even though the topic concerned you.  Oh well.  Hope the statins reduce the numbers and make everyone happy. Lee Rodgers Message Board  http://lowcarb.org/forums Eat meat, drink water, sip oil and move. IN MY OPINION prefaces anything I’ve written No claims are intended to be medical advice!

Response:

Hello everyone. I’m not one for rants but I’m a bit pissed off at the moment! I’ve been on Atkins for 10 months now and I’ve managed to lose lots of weight. However, I still have my family worried about what this WOE is doing to my health. I know it’s only because they care so I thought I would get my cholesterol tested and when they see my great numbers (I had high cholesterol when I started Atkins), I can have an easy life. Unfortunately, it backfired on me! My numbers before were HDL 42.5, LDL 162, Triglycerides 177, total 240. Now my numbers are HDL 54, LDL 243, triglycerides 97, total 316. I know my triglycerides have improved but my LDL and total have shot up and I now have to take medication. I know that most people improve their numbers after a while on low carb, even if the numbers go up at first. Surely 10 months is enough for my cholesterol to improve? Am I overreacting? I don’t know that much about these tests but my LDL seems to be really high. I have no intention of going back to my old way of eating but I’m now considering trying to do a low carb, lower fat diet. Has anyone else had the same problems I’m having. I would really appreciate any advice. Many thanks in advance, Pany

Response:

I dropped my LDL cholesterol 100 points after starting Armour thyroid.  Do you have thyroid symptoms?  Even if your TSH is in range you may have a sluggish thyroid.  New research shows that your TSH should be around, if not under, 2.0 I recommend you get the following tests and look to see if thyroid may be a cause.  Remember they dont need to be out of range. TSH FreeT4 FreeT3 Also try to get an Antibodies test if you are having symptoms All these may be a fight to get…just to warn you….I had to leave my doc to get the meds i needed…best thing i ever did…i now have my life back and feel great.  Old doc took 6 years of my life by not treating me for Subclinical Hypothyroidism. After the tests get a copy and email me.  If you have a current thyroid test get a copy of that too. BTW here are some of the symptoms Fatigue Depression Modest weight gain Cold intolerance Excessive sleepiness Dry, coarse hair Constipation Dry skin Muscle cramps Increased cholesterol levels Decreased concentration Vague aches and pains Swelling of the legs Carpel tunnel  Joe

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone. I’m not one for rants but I’m a bit pissed off at the moment! I’ve been on Atkins for 10 months now and I’ve managed to lose lots of weight. However, I still have my family worried about what this WOE is doing to my health. I know it’s only because they care so I thought I would get my cholesterol tested and when they see my great numbers (I had high cholesterol when I started Atkins), I can have an easy life. Unfortunately, it backfired on me! My numbers before were HDL 42.5, LDL 162, Triglycerides 177, total 240. Now my numbers are HDL 54, LDL 243, triglycerides 97, total 316. I know my triglycerides have improved but my LDL and total have shot up and I now have to take medication. I know that most people improve their numbers after a while on low carb, even if the numbers go up at first. Surely 10 months is enough for my cholesterol to improve? Am I overreacting? I don’t know that much about these tests but my LDL seems to be really high. I have no intention of going back to my old way of eating but I’m now considering trying to do a low carb, lower fat diet. Has anyone else had the same problems I’m having. I would really appreciate any advice. Many thanks in advance, Pany

Response:

Has you Doc checked your free T3 and T4 levels.  My total has dropped 28 points since I began, but it could have been from my thyroid hormone replacement med’s. Its funny that you HDL didn’t climb. rk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone. I’m not one for rants but I’m a bit pissed off at the moment! I’ve been on Atkins for 10 months now and I’ve managed to lose lots of weight. However, I still have my family worried about what this WOE is doing to my health. I know it’s only because they care so I thought I would get my cholesterol tested and when they see my great numbers (I had high cholesterol when I started Atkins), I can have an easy life. Unfortunately, it backfired on me! My numbers before were HDL 42.5, LDL 162, Triglycerides 177, total 240. Now my numbers are HDL 54, LDL 243, triglycerides 97, total 316. I know my triglycerides have improved but my LDL and total have shot up and I now have to take medication. I know that most people improve their numbers after a while on low carb, even if the numbers go up at first. Surely 10 months is enough for my cholesterol to improve? Am I overreacting? I don’t know that much about these tests but my LDL seems to be really high. I have no intention of going back to my old way of eating but I’m now considering trying to do a low carb, lower fat diet. Has anyone else had the same problems I’m having. I would really appreciate any advice. Many thanks in advance, Pany

Response:

Question:

Hi all.  I have been struggling with a migraine for quite a few days now. Thought it was getting better but seems to have taken a turn for worse last night.  (I seem to have very lengthy migraines where the pain is not as severe although bad enough to impair normal activity).  Today I feel overall worse, much weaker and I have been very cold today (it is much colder outside too) at times.  Has anyone experienced lower body temperature, or low pulse with their migraines along w/ pain, nausea, etc.?  I am going to call my doctor today (the old one cuz new one hasn’t begun treatment yet) and ask for any suggestions to stop this cycle. Thanks, lisa

Response:

Hi Lisa… I know when I have a bad spell…. my anxiety goes way up…. "when will this end?…..How bad will it get?…… Can anyone help?….)  I always find that my extremities have less blood flow and are consequently colder through all of that… there must be an physiological explanation for it… (anyone?).  So that when Hubby asks if I need ice… he knows to bring the heating pad too!!  (I sit on it…) Don’t delay in calling your doc and let us know what he says.  I’ll be thinking of you and hoping that he can break this cycle for you. Liz

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all.  I have been struggling with a migraine for quite a few days now. Thought it was getting better but seems to have taken a turn for worse last night.  (I seem to have very lengthy migraines where the pain is not as severe although bad enough to impair normal activity).  Today I feel overall worse, much weaker and I have been very cold today (it is much colder outside too) at times.  Has anyone experienced lower body temperature, or low pulse with their migraines along w/ pain, nausea, etc.?  I am going to call my doctor today (the old one cuz new one hasn’t begun treatment yet) and ask for any suggestions to stop this cycle. Thanks, lisa

Response:

I get cold all over with migraines; but especially feet and hands.  I use an electric blanket year around and also high top sheep skin slippers but nothing seems to really help. An Oriental Doctor once told me that one if one could think their extremities were warming up it would help the migraine.  It never helped me.  My body temp. is always about a degree below normal and my pulse runs around 40 at times but doesn’t seem to be associated with migraines. A change in Blood pressure rx brought my b/p up to a more normal range.  Good luck.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all.  I have been struggling with a migraine for quite a few days now. Thought it was getting better but seems to have taken a turn for worse last night.  (I seem to have very lengthy migraines where the pain is not as severe although bad enough to impair normal activity).  Today I feel overall worse, much weaker and I have been very cold today (it is much colder outside too) at times.  Has anyone experienced lower body temperature, or low pulse with their migraines along w/ pain, nausea, etc.?  I am going to call my doctor today (the old one cuz new one hasn’t begun treatment yet) and ask for any suggestions to stop this cycle. Thanks, lisa

Response:

Hi all.  I have been struggling with a migraine for quite a few days now. Thought it was getting better but seems to have taken a turn for worse last night.  (I seem to have very lengthy migraines where the pain is not as severe although bad enough to impair normal activity).  Today I feel overall worse, much weaker and I have been very cold today (it is much colder outside too) at times.  Has anyone experienced lower body temperature, or low pulse with their migraines along w/ pain, nausea, etc.?  I am going to call my doctor today (the old one cuz new one hasn’t begun treatment yet) and ask for any suggestions to stop this cycle.

Feeling cold is one of the warnings I get before the HA hits. Even on a warm day I sometimes have to wear a wooly and anorack. A long soak in a hot bath sometimes aborts the HA. I don’t know if it because it heats me up or because in a bath is one of the few places that I really relax. — Alastair

Response:

My obgyn ran a complete set of blood tests for me a while back, and I believe that he checked for low thyroid levels.  All test that I have had have come back normal.  Thanks for the info though. lisa

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you had your thyroid checked? Good point, Mike. Not everybody knows that low thyroid (symptoms vary, but may include low body temp, low BP, fragile hair and nails, constipation, dry skin, weight gain, etc.) is associated with an increase in migraines, for susceptible people. Treatment brought my HAs down from 3-4 to 1-2 per week. –Julianne

Response:

Have you had your thyroid checked?

Good point, Mike. Not everybody knows that low thyroid (symptoms vary, but may include low body temp, low BP, fragile hair and nails, constipation, dry skin, weight gain, etc.) is associated with an increase in migraines, for susceptible people. Treatment brought my HAs down from 3-4 to 1-2 per week. –Julianne

Response:

Have you had your thyroid checked? Thanks, Mike — To reply via email remove the (SPAM_BLOCKER) from my email address:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all.  I have been struggling with a migraine for quite a few days now. Thought it was getting better but seems to have taken a turn for worse last night.  (I seem to have very lengthy migraines where the pain is not as severe although bad enough to impair normal activity).  Today I feel overall worse, much weaker and I have been very cold today (it is much colder outside too) at times.  Has anyone experienced lower body temperature, or low pulse with their migraines along w/ pain, nausea, etc.?  I am going to call my doctor today (the old one cuz new one hasn’t begun treatment yet) and ask for any suggestions to stop this cycle. Thanks, lisa

Response:

Question:

I missed the first post but am now replying. It is normal for  hair loss on any diet. Taking folic acid, silica/horsetail herb helps wonderfully in re-growth of new hair and nails. You will notice in the re-growth in your fingernails alone (takes about 6 weeks or so for full re-growth). I lost bunches when I first started L.C. , took a break, had great re-growth , back on L.C. , loosing hair again but not as bad, maybe because weather is cooler and more conservative. — Blessings, April http://www.home.earthlink.net/~rparkin307/_wsn/page3.html (My L.C. Page) http://www.fitday.com/WebFit/PublicJournals.html?Owner=April%5FBlues (my FitDay L.C. Status) MY AIM AND YAHOO is " aprilsruss ".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You have to be a doctor.  Are you, and you just haven’t let on to us??????? Hi Robby,     You have just made my day, dude!  I assure you, I am only a doctor of love, a student of the human condition, and a philosopher of the good versus evil paradox in regards to individual morality and ethics.  Once again it is disclaimer time. The citing’s that appear in my posts are intended for educational purposes only and should not be used in any other manner.  This information is not intended to substitute for informed medical advice.  You should not use this information to diagnose or treat a health problem or disease without consulting with a qualified health care provider.  A consultation with your health care professional is the proper method to address your health concerns.  You are encouraged to consult your health care provider with any questions or concerns you may have regarding your condition.  Rapid advances in medicine may cause information contained in my posts to become outdated, invalid or subject to debate.  Accuracy cannot be guaranteed. I assume no responsibility for how information presented is used by the public.  I personally do not endorse any treatments, medications, or products, other than a low carbohydrate way of eating, unless explicitly stated in the post.  Be aware that I have no medical credentials; therefore, there is no medical advice implied in my posts. None of the information I provide is warranted for accuracy, reliability, timeliness, completeness, or anything else; read and reply at your own risk and with skepticism — and always consult your physician, psychiatrist, therapist, veterinarian, butcher, bartender, minister, or other professional practitioner, but never a Registered Dietician, to collaborate my citing’s. Later My Friend, Robert

Response:

So sorry to hear about your hair loss. "Dieting" per say, does stress the body, especially when certain food groups are left out almost completely. Once, when I did a liquid diet, my hair started to fall out.

<snip How have you been, Dawn? I’ve been wondering about you, haven’t seen any of your posts for a long time. CAD 2/94 LC 7/01 188/167/126

Response:

I missed the first post but am now replying. It is normal for  hair loss on any diet. Taking folic acid, silica/horsetail herb helps wonderfully in re-growth of new hair and nails. You will notice in the re-growth in your fingernails alone (takes about 6 weeks or so for full re-growth). I lost bunches when I first started L.C. , took a break, had great re-growth , back on L.C. , loosing hair again but not as bad, maybe because weather is cooler and more conservative.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You have to be a doctor.  Are you, and you just haven’t let on to us??????? Hi Robby,     You have just made my day, dude!  I assure you, I am only a doctor of love, a student of the human condition, and a philosopher of the good versus evil paradox in regards to individual morality and ethics.  Once again it is disclaimer time. The citing’s that appear in my posts are intended for educational purposes only and should not be used in any other manner.  This information is not intended to substitute for informed medical advice.  You should not use this information to diagnose or treat a health problem or disease without consulting with a qualified health care provider.  A consultation with your health care professional is the proper method to address your health concerns.  You are encouraged to consult your health care provider with any questions or concerns you may have regarding your condition.  Rapid advances in medicine may cause information contained in my posts to become outdated, invalid or subject to debate.  Accuracy cannot be guaranteed. I assume no responsibility for how information presented is used by the public.  I personally do not endorse any treatments, medications, or products, other than a low carbohydrate way of eating, unless explicitly stated in the post.  Be aware that I have no medical credentials; therefore, there is no medical advice implied in my posts. None of the information I provide is warranted for accuracy, reliability, timeliness, completeness, or anything else; read and reply at your own risk and with skepticism — and always consult your physician, psychiatrist, therapist, veterinarian, butcher, bartender, minister, or other professional practitioner, but never a Registered Dietician, to collaborate my citing’s. Later My Friend, Robert

Response:

I lost hair when I went on VLCD.  It took its time coming back, and it’s gray. I have not lost hair on Atkins.  YMMV. —  Widget need a Brain Drain?  Check out Industrial ZMODEM(Tm)    Omen Technology Inc      "The High Reliability Software" 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231     503-614-0430

Response:

Ted,  I have heard others say that it does stop and that the new growth seems in better condition. Good luck to you. ConnieW

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know hair loss can sometimes be a side effect when adopting this way of eating, but how long does it last? I’ve been eating low-carb for 10 weeks, but the hair loss began three weeks ago. Since I don’t have much hair to begin with, I’m worried. I’m taking all the recommended supplements, as well as one for healthy hair. My question is, how long did it take for other people’s hair to stop falling out? Thanks.

Response:

Hi Just some bad news for you : My Hair Loss started after about a month, lasted for about 2 and then stopped. Now, 1 month later it started again. I hate it. I’ll be slim but bald. Don’t know what causes it, but I sure don’t believe in this Telogen thingy. I had more stress than at the moment in my life before, and some of the diets I followed must have caused my body a lot more stress as well (like the chocolate and coke diet, 500 calories a day, low fat, no fat, rice only…..). I seems to be very common on this diet, but none of the LC books addresses it, which worries me a bit, but apparently it does stop eventually and hair will grow back. Let’s hope it happens before I hit pension age and good luck to you Sabine

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ted,  I have heard others say that it does stop and that the new growth seems in better condition. Good luck to you. ConnieW I know hair loss can sometimes be a side effect when adopting this way of eating, but how long does it last? I’ve been eating low-carb for 10 weeks, but the hair loss began three weeks ago. Since I don’t have much hair to begin with, I’m worried. I’m taking all the recommended supplements, as well as one for healthy hair. My question is, how long did it take for other people’s hair to stop falling out? Thanks.

Response:

You have to be a doctor.  Are you, and you just haven’t let on to us??????? Robby

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know hair loss can sometimes be a side effect when adopting this way of eating, but how long does it last? I’ve been eating low-carb for 10 weeks, but the hair loss began three weeks ago. Since I don’t have much hair to begin with, I’m worried. I’m taking all the recommended supplements, as well as one for healthy hair. My question is, how long did it take for other people’s hair to stop falling out? Hi Ted,     Hair loss is not addressed in Protein Power or the DANDR books. But it is a common occurrence. Excessive hair loss can be caused by a multitude of factors, including any number of diets, recent surgery, medications, chemotherapy, stress, hormonal changes and many more reasons. Hair also is genetically programmed either to be sensitive to or resist hormones that appear in puberty. It’s this part of the genetic program that most frequently causes balding, or alopecia. Androgenetic alopecia is the scientific name for the genetic predisposition that is responsible for 95% of all pattern hair loss in both sexes. Pattern hair loss refers to the progressive loss of hair in predictable stages, over predictable areas of the scalp. The pattern of loss typically varies between men and women. In men, androgenetic alopecia can begin as early as the teens and usually peaks at about age 40. This may happen to women after menopause. If you had hair before you started your diet, this is not what you have. Alopecia areata is an immune system disorder that affects about one or two percent of the population. The condition is characterized by temporary, patchy hair loss on the scalp and/or body. It usually starts with small round patches of baldness. Most cases of alopecia areata begin in childhood. The affected hair follicles become small, slow down production and grow no visible hair for months or years. Like androgenetic alopecia, the scalp appears normal. You likely don’t have this either.     Other conditions and factors also can cause a temporary or sometimes permanent loss of hair. These include the normal processes of aging (involutional alopecia), traumatic injuries such as severe burns, skin infections, radiation therapy where the radiation is targeted, medications as a temporary side effect, tight hairdos and elastic bands that exert a constant pull (traction alopecia), certain diseases and conditions (diabetes, lupus, immune system disorders and polycystic ovary syndrome), overactive or underactive thyroids, incorrectly applied hair color and chemical relaxers, stress, illness and childbirth.     So you see, almost anything can cause hair loss. No wonder diets make the top of the list. I would presume that the reason that diets cause hair loss is because the nutrients typically circulating in your bloodstream that nourish your hair follicles are drastically changing over the course of the diet. This is stress. Stress is on the list of reasons for hair loss. If you are experiencing hair loss while low carbing, you’ll likely keep losing hair in varying degrees until you have stabilized to an acceptable weight and are on the long-term maintenance phase of this WOE. If you can’t take the hair loss, then you’ll have to compromise on something. Also keep in mind, that this massive change in your diet and metabolism may also trigger other changes in your life that may have started in the near future anyway. You may need to learn to live with the new you.     Another possibility is Telogen effluvium. This is a form of nonscarring alopecia characterized by diffuse hair shedding, often with an acute onset. A chronic form with a more insidious onset and a longer duration also exists. Telogen effluvium is a reactive process caused by a metabolic or hormonal stress or by medications. Generally, recovery is spontaneous and occurs within 6 months. Telogen effluvium can affect hair on all parts of the body, but, generally, only loss of scalp hair is symptomatic. Understanding the pathophysiology of telogen effluvium requires knowledge of the hair growth cycle. All hair has a growth phase, termed anagen, and a resting phase, telogen. On the scalp, anagen lasts approximately 3 years, while telogen lasts roughly 3 months, although there can be wide variation in these times between individuals. During telogen, the resting hair remains in the follicle until it is pushed out by growth of a new anagen hair. In most people, 5-15% of the hair on the scalp is in telogen at any given time. Telogen effluvium is triggered when a physiologic stress or hormonal change causes a large number of hairs to enter telogen at one time. Shedding does not occur until the new anagen hairs begin to grow. The emerging hairs help to force the resting hairs out of the follicle. Recent evidence suggests that the mechanism of shedding of a telogen hair is an active process that may occur independent of the emerging anagen hair. The interval between the inciting event in telogen effluvium and the onset of shedding corresponds to the length of the telogen phase, between 1 and 6 months (average 3 mo). This condition is quite common, but exact prevalence is not recorded. A large percentage of adults have experienced an episode of telogen effluvium at some point in their lives. Acute telogen effluvium can occur in either sex if the proper inciting conditions occur. Because hormonal changes in the postpartum period are a common cause of telogen effluvium, women may have a greater tendency to experience this condition. In addition, women tend to find the hair shedding more troublesome than men do; thus, more women seek medical attention for the condition. Telogen effluvium can occur at any age. It is not uncommon for infants in the first months of life to experience an episode of telogen effluvium. The symptom of both acute and chronic telogen effluvium is increased hair shedding. Patients usually only complain that their hair is falling out at an increased rate. Occasionally, they note that the remaining hair feels less dense. In both forms of telogen effluvium, hair is lost diffusely from the entire scalp. Complete alopecia is not seen.     Acute telogen effluvium is defined as hair shedding lasting less than 6 months. Patients with acute telogen effluvium usually complain of relatively sudden onset of hair loss. Careful questioning usually reveals a metabolic or physiologic stress 1-6 months before the start of the hair shedding. Physiologic stresses that can induce telogen effluvium include febrile illness, major injury, change in diet, pregnancy and delivery, and starting a new medication. Immunizations also have been reported to cause acute hair shedding. Papulosquamous diseases of the scalp, such as psoriasis and seborrheic dermatitis, can produce telogen effluvium. Chronic telogen effluvium is hair shedding lasting longer than 6 months. The onset is often insidious, and it can be difficult to identify an inciting event. Because of the duration of the hair shedding, patients are more likely to complain of decreased scalp hair density, or they may note that their hair appears thin and lifeless. The physical examination is the same in both acute and chronic telogen effluvium. Physical findings are sparse. Usually, the physician does not appreciate a decrease in hair density. However, if the patient’s hair has been falling out for several months, the hair may appear thin when compared with old photographs. Depending on the duration of hair loss, close examination of the scalp may reveal a higher than expected number of short new hairs growing. Because hair grows at a nearly constant rate of approximately 1 cm per month, the duration of the hair shedding can be estimated by measuring the length of the short hairs. In active telogen effluvium, the gentle hair pull test will yield at least 4 hairs with each pull. If the patient’s active shedding has ceased, the hair pull will be normal. Forced extraction of 10-20 hairs will yield a large percentage of telogen hairs. If greater than 25% of extracted hairs are in telogen, the diagnosis of telogen effluvium is confirmed. There is one caveat to reliance on strict physical findings or numerical criteria in the diagnosis of telogen effluvium. Each patient’s scalp hair has an individual characteristic growth cycle. There are patients who have a very long anagen phase and a small proportion of hair in telogen at any given time. These patients may experience an episode of telogen effluvium but have completely normal physical findings. History alone must guide the physician to the correct diagnosis in these cases. There should be no areas of total alopecia in a patient with telogen effluvium. Scarring is not present. There also should be no sign of an inflammatory scalp dermatitis. Usually, there are no complaints of body hair loss. Physiologic stress is the cause of telogen effluvium. These inciting factors can be organized into several categories, noted below. Acute illness such as febrile illness, severe infection, major surgery and severe trauma Chronic illness such as malignancy, particularly lymphoproliferative malignancy; and any chronic debilitating illness, such as systemic lupus erythematosus, end-stage renal disease, or liver disease Hormonal changes such as pregnancy and delivery (can affect both mother and child), hypothyroidism, and discontinuation of estrogen-containing medications Changes in diet like crash dieting, anorexia, low protein intake, and chronic iron deficiency Heavy metals such as selenium, arsenic, and thallium

… read more »

Response:

I know hair loss can sometimes be a side effect when adopting this way of eating, but how long does it last? I’ve been eating low-carb for 10 weeks, but the hair loss began three weeks ago. Since I don’t have much hair to begin with, I’m worried. I’m taking all the recommended supplements, as well as one for healthy hair. My question is, how long did it take for other people’s hair to stop falling out?

Hi Ted,     Hair loss is not addressed in Protein Power or the DANDR books. But it is a common occurrence. Excessive hair loss can be caused by a multitude of factors, including any number of diets, recent surgery, medications, chemotherapy, stress, hormonal changes and many more reasons. Hair also is genetically programmed either to be sensitive to or resist hormones that appear in puberty. It’s this part of the genetic program that most frequently causes balding, or alopecia. Androgenetic alopecia is the scientific name for the genetic predisposition that is responsible for 95% of all pattern hair loss in both sexes. Pattern hair loss refers to the progressive loss of hair in predictable stages, over predictable areas of the scalp. The pattern of loss typically varies between men and women. In men, androgenetic alopecia can begin as early as the teens and usually peaks at about age 40. This may happen to women after menopause. If you had hair before you started your diet, this is not what you have. Alopecia areata is an immune system disorder that affects about one or two percent of the population. The condition is characterized by temporary, patchy hair loss on the scalp and/or body. It usually starts with small round patches of baldness. Most cases of alopecia areata begin in childhood. The affected hair follicles become small, slow down production and grow no visible hair for months or years. Like androgenetic alopecia, the scalp appears normal. You likely don’t have this either.     Other conditions and factors also can cause a temporary or sometimes permanent loss of hair. These include the normal processes of aging (involutional alopecia), traumatic injuries such as severe burns, skin infections, radiation therapy where the radiation is targeted, medications as a temporary side effect, tight hairdos and elastic bands that exert a constant pull (traction alopecia), certain diseases and conditions (diabetes, lupus, immune system disorders and polycystic ovary syndrome), overactive or underactive thyroids, incorrectly applied hair color and chemical relaxers, stress, illness and childbirth.     So you see, almost anything can cause hair loss. No wonder diets make the top of the list. I would presume that the reason that diets cause hair loss is because the nutrients typically circulating in your bloodstream that nourish your hair follicles are drastically changing over the course of the diet. This is stress. Stress is on the list of reasons for hair loss. If you are experiencing hair loss while low carbing, you’ll likely keep losing hair in varying degrees until you have stabilized to an acceptable weight and are on the long-term maintenance phase of this WOE. If you can’t take the hair loss, then you’ll have to compromise on something. Also keep in mind, that this massive change in your diet and metabolism may also trigger other changes in your life that may have started in the near future anyway. You may need to learn to live with the new you.     Another possibility is Telogen effluvium. This is a form of nonscarring alopecia characterized by diffuse hair shedding, often with an acute onset. A chronic form with a more insidious onset and a longer duration also exists. Telogen effluvium is a reactive process caused by a metabolic or hormonal stress or by medications. Generally, recovery is spontaneous and occurs within 6 months. Telogen effluvium can affect hair on all parts of the body, but, generally, only loss of scalp hair is symptomatic. Understanding the pathophysiology of telogen effluvium requires knowledge of the hair growth cycle. All hair has a growth phase, termed anagen, and a resting phase, telogen. On the scalp, anagen lasts approximately 3 years, while telogen lasts roughly 3 months, although there can be wide variation in these times between individuals. During telogen, the resting hair remains in the follicle until it is pushed out by growth of a new anagen hair. In most people, 5-15% of the hair on the scalp is in telogen at any given time. Telogen effluvium is triggered when a physiologic stress or hormonal change causes a large number of hairs to enter telogen at one time. Shedding does not occur until the new anagen hairs begin to grow. The emerging hairs help to force the resting hairs out of the follicle. Recent evidence suggests that the mechanism of shedding of a telogen hair is an active process that may occur independent of the emerging anagen hair. The interval between the inciting event in telogen effluvium and the onset of shedding corresponds to the length of the telogen phase, between 1 and 6 months (average 3 mo). This condition is quite common, but exact prevalence is not recorded. A large percentage of adults have experienced an episode of telogen effluvium at some point in their lives. Acute telogen effluvium can occur in either sex if the proper inciting conditions occur. Because hormonal changes in the postpartum period are a common cause of telogen effluvium, women may have a greater tendency to experience this condition. In addition, women tend to find the hair shedding more troublesome than men do; thus, more women seek medical attention for the condition. Telogen effluvium can occur at any age. It is not uncommon for infants in the first months of life to experience an episode of telogen effluvium. The symptom of both acute and chronic telogen effluvium is increased hair shedding. Patients usually only complain that their hair is falling out at an increased rate. Occasionally, they note that the remaining hair feels less dense. In both forms of telogen effluvium, hair is lost diffusely from the entire scalp. Complete alopecia is not seen.     Acute telogen effluvium is defined as hair shedding lasting less than 6 months. Patients with acute telogen effluvium usually complain of relatively sudden onset of hair loss. Careful questioning usually reveals a metabolic or physiologic stress 1-6 months before the start of the hair shedding. Physiologic stresses that can induce telogen effluvium include febrile illness, major injury, change in diet, pregnancy and delivery, and starting a new medication. Immunizations also have been reported to cause acute hair shedding. Papulosquamous diseases of the scalp, such as psoriasis and seborrheic dermatitis, can produce telogen effluvium. Chronic telogen effluvium is hair shedding lasting longer than 6 months. The onset is often insidious, and it can be difficult to identify an inciting event. Because of the duration of the hair shedding, patients are more likely to complain of decreased scalp hair density, or they may note that their hair appears thin and lifeless. The physical examination is the same in both acute and chronic telogen effluvium. Physical findings are sparse. Usually, the physician does not appreciate a decrease in hair density. However, if the patient’s hair has been falling out for several months, the hair may appear thin when compared with old photographs. Depending on the duration of hair loss, close examination of the scalp may reveal a higher than expected number of short new hairs growing. Because hair grows at a nearly constant rate of approximately 1 cm per month, the duration of the hair shedding can be estimated by measuring the length of the short hairs. In active telogen effluvium, the gentle hair pull test will yield at least 4 hairs with each pull. If the patient’s active shedding has ceased, the hair pull will be normal. Forced extraction of 10-20 hairs will yield a large percentage of telogen hairs. If greater than 25% of extracted hairs are in telogen, the diagnosis of telogen effluvium is confirmed. There is one caveat to reliance on strict physical findings or numerical criteria in the diagnosis of telogen effluvium. Each patient’s scalp hair has an individual characteristic growth cycle. There are patients who have a very long anagen phase and a small proportion of hair in telogen at any given time. These patients may experience an episode of telogen effluvium but have completely normal physical findings. History alone must guide the physician to the correct diagnosis in these cases. There should be no areas of total alopecia in a patient with telogen effluvium. Scarring is not present. There also should be no sign of an inflammatory scalp dermatitis. Usually, there are no complaints of body hair loss. Physiologic stress is the cause of telogen effluvium. These inciting factors can be organized into several categories, noted below. Acute illness such as febrile illness, severe infection, major surgery and severe trauma Chronic illness such as malignancy, particularly lymphoproliferative malignancy; and any chronic debilitating illness, such as systemic lupus erythematosus, end-stage renal disease, or liver disease Hormonal changes such as pregnancy and delivery (can affect both mother and child), hypothyroidism, and discontinuation of estrogen-containing medications Changes in diet like crash dieting, anorexia, low protein intake, and chronic iron deficiency Heavy metals such as selenium, arsenic, and thallium A variety of medications have been related to telogen effluvium. Some of the most frequently cited causes of telogen effluvium are beta-blockers, anticoagulants, retinoids (including excess vitamin A), propylthiouracil (induces hypothyroidism), carbamazepine, and immunizations.     If an unbalanced diet is believed to be a contributing factor to telogen effluvium, especially in a case of chronic telogen effluvium, treatment should focus on adequate … read more »

Response:

Hi, My name is Emily and I have been on the Atkins diet since January. I

havelost 47 lbs. so far. I, too, have had a problem with hair loss. I didn’t havemuch hair either and couldn’t afford to lose any. But the hair loss hasstopped now. I read in a fitness magazine that sometimes your body reacts to

thestressof dieting by losing hair.  The article said that this would occur for aboutsix months and then a period of regrowth for six months. Sure hope the lateristrue. Hope this info helps. Emily

 Hello Emily, So sorry to hear about your hair loss. "Dieting" per say, does stress the body, especially when certain food groups are left out almost completely. Once, when I did a liquid diet, my hair started to fall out. Hair is the first thing the body gives up when it is in need of more nutrients, especially protein. I follow Dr. Diana Schwarzbein’s plan for life called The Schwarzbein Principle. The amount of complex carbs you eat daily is determined  by your waist measurement.  ( Your waist is your ‘insulin meter’). The lowest carb level is 15 grams per meal and 7.5 in each of 2 snacks. If you become depressed you are told to add carbs until your serotonin levels return to normal. In chronic dieters levels can be really messed up. You need to make certain you get quality protein daily as well as ‘good fats’ like Udo’s oil. Selenium and zinc has helped with hair loss in those who were deficient. If all of that doesn’t help you may be facing female pattern hair loss. A visit to a dermatologist may be a good idea just in case.  Dawn

Response:

You have to be a doctor.  Are you, and you just haven’t let on to us???????

Hi Robby,     You have just made my day, dude!  I assure you, I am only a doctor of love, a student of the human condition, and a philosopher of the good versus evil paradox in regards to individual morality and ethics.  Once again it is disclaimer time. The citing’s that appear in my posts are intended for educational purposes only and should not be used in any other manner.  This information is not intended to substitute for informed medical advice.  You should not use this information to diagnose or treat a health problem or disease without consulting with a qualified health care provider.  A consultation with your health care professional is the proper method to address your health concerns.  You are encouraged to consult your health care provider with any questions or concerns you may have regarding your condition.  Rapid advances in medicine may cause information contained in my posts to become outdated, invalid or subject to debate.  Accuracy cannot be guaranteed. I assume no responsibility for how information presented is used by the public.  I personally do not endorse any treatments, medications, or products, other than a low carbohydrate way of eating, unless explicitly stated in the post.  Be aware that I have no medical credentials; therefore, there is no medical advice implied in my posts.  None of the information I provide is warranted for accuracy, reliability, timeliness, completeness, or anything else; read and reply at your own risk and with skepticism — and always consult your physician, psychiatrist, therapist, veterinarian, butcher, bartender, minister, or other professional practitioner, but never a Registered Dietician, to collaborate my citing’s. Later My Friend, Robert

Response:

Hi, My name is Emily and I have been on the Atkins diet since January. I have lost 47 lbs. so far. I, too, have had a problem with hair loss. I didn’t have much hair either and couldn’t afford to lose any. But the hair loss has stopped now. I read in a fitness magazine that sometimes your body reacts to the stress of dieting by losing hair.  The article said that this would occur for about six months and then a period of regrowth for six months. Sure hope the later is true. Hope this info helps. Emily

Response:

I know hair loss can sometimes be a side effect when adopting this way of eating, but how long does it last?

I haven’t been experiencing hair loss. Maybe some more information could help us give you a good answer. Such as age, height, weight, and a few days’ worth of food logs (fitday.com has place where you can enter your food log for free, and get nutrition analysis info.) CAD 2/94 LC 7/01 188/167/126

Response:

I know hair loss can sometimes be a side effect when adopting this way of eating, but how long does it last? I’ve been eating low-carb for 10 weeks, but the hair loss began three weeks ago. Since I don’t have much hair to begin with, I’m worried. I’m taking all the recommended supplements, as well as one for healthy hair. My question is, how long did it take for other people’s hair to stop falling out? Thanks.

Response:

Hi there, Maybe you have a sluggish thyroid.  Dieting of ANY kind can slow thyroid (See the Cut and Paste below).  Also avoid calorie restriction and work out to build muscle.  This would fool the body.  The muscle gain makes it think its gaining…not losing You could also get the following thyroid tests. TSH FreeT3 FreeT4 For me, I feel best at TSH below 1.  Ft3 and Ft4 should be close in range and around the middle of range. See if you have any other thyroid symptoms at http://www.thyroid.about.com . From the Atkins center On any weight loss diet , there is a risk of suppressing thyroid function. It’s a survival mechanism that sends a message to the brain to slow down metabolism when there are dramatic weight losses. There is less of a chance of this happening on low carbohydrate diets because you can fool the signal by consuming adequate calories, unlike low fat counter parts that need to restrict calories to succeed. Be sure you are not skipping meals, taking in sufficient calories, drinking enough water to avoid dehydration, and exercising daily. Exercise will build muscle (that weighs more than fat ) and you can deceive the scales and your brain while losing fat. There are also nutritional protocols you can follow which include the amino acid tyrosine or the protomorphagen,Thyroid Extract from Standard Process called thytrophin. Good luck Joe 310/187/180 since 4-00 http://www.jaxworld.com/lowcarb/joe.html

Response:

Question:

I’m so glad to hear you’re not leaving us afterall.  I’m glad to hear too that the new pain medication is helping.  Hang in there! Sandra

Response:

They just tell you they only talk to you. They told me so. love, catherine "BJ" <B…@sk.nojunk.ca

wrote in message

news:oxKa7.153$yh.4587725@tomcat.sk.sympatico.ca… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well,I certainly know that BJ isn’t weird,warped perhaps,but not weird. > You’re just jealous because the voices only talk to me. > Smiles to all. > BJ > "KCat" <kcdoc…@ghg.net

wrote in message

> news:8vnmmtcj5oflgf4i2ss94u5th5m3vpbnur@4ax.com… > > On Fri, 03 Aug 2001 17:57:05 GMT, "BJ" <B…@sk.nojunk.ca>  wrote: > > >Hi Serafina, > > >Glad to hear that you have decided to stay with us. We can be weird,but > fun. > > >BJ > > who’s weird? > > certainly not me.  or andy… or janers   or BJ… > > <maniacal laughter>

Response:

On Sat, 04 Aug 2001 04:06:44 GMT, "BJ" <B…@sk.nojunk.ca

 wrote: Well,I certainly know that BJ isn’t weird,warped perhaps,but not weird. You’re just jealous because the voices only talk to me. Smiles to all. BJ

“““   Nyah Nyah

Response:

On Fri, 03 Aug 2001 21:37:23 -0500, KCat <kcdoc…@ghg.net

 wrote: On Fri, 03 Aug 2001 17:45:49 GMT, "Serafina" <nappt…@bigfoot.com wrote: having low normal temp (such that at 99.0 we feel like cr*p)?  Quite a IIRC.  

that was supposed to say Quite a lot IIRC (If I Recall Correctly).

Dr. Don Colbert – _The Bible Cure for [fill in the blank]_   (he had everything from cancer to FM/CFS to muscle wasting.  I don’t like the word "cure" but I’m sure that’s designed to sell the books.  They didn’t give a price and the books were sold as a set – but might be available individually through someone other than Rev. Hagee.

I wanted to point out that tho these are Christian-based, the doctor was not saying "just give it to God and you’ll feel better" but was actually discussing traditional treatments and alternative in conjunction with Faith.   I’m not much for televangelism (though I love watching Rexella and Jack for the giggles and the occasional bit of wisdom) so I’m not trying to hunt down disciples here… just sharing what I heard.

Response:

Well,I certainly know that BJ isn’t weird,warped perhaps,but not weird. You’re just jealous because the voices only talk to me. Smiles to all. BJ "KCat" <kcdoc…@ghg.net

wrote in message

news:8vnmmtcj5oflgf4i2ss94u5th5m3vpbnur@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On Fri, 03 Aug 2001 17:57:05 GMT, "BJ" <B…@sk.nojunk.ca  wrote: Hi Serafina, Glad to hear that you have decided to stay with us. We can be weird,but

fun.

BJ who’s weird? certainly not me.  or andy… or janers   or BJ… <maniacal laughter

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -KCat wrote:

On Fri, 03 Aug 2001 17:45:49 GMT, "Serafina" <nappt…@bigfoot.com wrote: I must say that in the Fibro group, there are many apparently people who want to complain about the medical profession and the lack of federal money being spent to do research. FM not being "deadly" (tho I don’t know the suicide rate…) I suspect research will be very hard to come by.  Still, yes, there’s a lot of anger there – and understandably – FM is not taken seriously by many docs, med institutions, etc.  Many believe it doesn’t exist or that it’s just "stress" and so on.  Saw something interesting today – John Hagee (televangelist) was talking to a doctor about his approach to some of these problems.  Granted, it’s Christian based but he said soemthings that made me wonder – I’m gonna check into it.  He said he treated many of his FM patients with very low doses of one of the thyroid hormones and found that though their thyroid tests were within normal range they had some of the classic hypothyroid symptoms (fatigue, low body temp)  - How many of us have complained about having low normal temp (such that at 99.0 we feel like cr*p)?  Quite a IIRC.  it was interesting – don’t know if I buy it all but it might be worth checking into.

some links… http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000371.htm http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003684.htm TSH 0.2 to 4.7 mcU/ml (I get many of thyroid symptoms if I go much above 5.0 and it’s a real fight with doctors to understand this). One of the problems is the word "normal" when measuring TSH, normal ranges vary from lab to lab, doctor’s ideas that a high-or-low normal shouldn’t be a problem, and finally, some people do better at one area of the spectrum, than someone else at the same. http://www.endocrineweb.com/thyroiditis.html http://www.thyroid.ca/English/Guides.html http://www.synthroid.com/consumer/1400.htm (which kind of disagrees with the url immediately above this line) Why Is the TSH Test the Best Test to Have? While measuring thyroid hormone levels may sometimes give a good idea of how the thyroid is functioning, it cannot detect milder abnormalities. TSH testing can detect mild thyroid failure and subclinical hyperthyroidism, both of which often progress to more severe cases of thyroid dysfunction HTH J

Response:

Giggle I looked at those groups when it was believed I had Fibro but I couldn’t handle them either. I know a lady has Fibro and she is a bit odd sometimes hard to explain but way differant than Lupus fog. Welcome back Cindy

Response:

On Fri, 03 Aug 2001 17:57:05 GMT, "BJ" <B…@sk.nojunk.ca

 wrote: Hi Serafina, Glad to hear that you have decided to stay with us. We can be weird,but fun. BJ

who’s weird? certainly not me.  or andy… or janers   or BJ… <maniacal laughter

Response:

On Fri, 03 Aug 2001 17:45:49 GMT, "Serafina" <nappt…@bigfoot.com

wrote:

I must say that in the Fibro group, there are many apparently people who want to complain about the medical profession and the lack of federal money being spent to do research.

FM not being "deadly" (tho I don’t know the suicide rate…) I suspect research will be very hard to come by.  Still, yes, there’s a lot of anger there – and understandably – FM is not taken seriously by many docs, med institutions, etc.  Many believe it doesn’t exist or that it’s just "stress" and so on.  Saw something interesting today – John Hagee (televangelist) was talking to a doctor about his approach to some of these problems.  Granted, it’s Christian based but he said soemthings that made me wonder – I’m gonna check into it.  He said he treated many of his FM patients with very low doses of one of the thyroid hormones and found that though their thyroid tests were within normal range they had some of the classic hypothyroid symptoms (fatigue, low body temp)  - How many of us have complained about having low normal temp (such that at 99.0 we feel like cr*p)?  Quite a IIRC.  it was interesting – don’t know if I buy it all but it might be worth checking into.   Dr. Don Colbert – _The Bible Cure for [fill in the blank]_   (he had everything from cancer to FM/CFS to muscle wasting.  I don’t like the word "cure" but I’m sure that’s designed to sell the books.  They didn’t give a price and the books were sold as a set – but might be available individually through someone other than Rev. Hagee.

Thanks,    I just rejoined and and super happy about it.

glad you are still here!

Some good news:  my pain management specialist put me on a new pain reliever which actually works.  About 50%  of my chest cavity pain has been relieved. I was Rxed a  Duragesic Patch  50 mg.   I recommend it for the reduction of pain.

Excellent.  Lots of folks do well on Duragesic.  I bet it’s a relief to get that pressure off of you. Take care and see ya ’round here. *********************************** KCat – I am not a medical professional.  The contents of this post are based soley on my experiences and opinions http://www.ghg.net/schwerpt/mypage.htm http://www.ghg.net/schwerpt/aslfaq20.htm   ("`-”-/").___..–”"`-._   (`6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.’`)    (_Y_.)’  ._   )  `._ `. “-..-”   _..`–’_..-_/  /–’_.’ ,’ (()),-”  (()),’    (((.-’

Response:

Thanks to all of your encouraging replies,  I shall NOT leave the Lupus group. Thanks to all you great people who show such interest in each other. I must say that in the Fibro group, there are many apparently people who want to complain about the medical profession and the lack of federal money being spent to do research. Thanks,    I just rejoined and and super happy about it. Some good news:  my pain management specialist put me on a new pain reliever which actually works.  About 50%  of my chest cavity pain has been relieved. I was Rxed a  Duragesic Patch  50 mg.   I recommend it for the reduction of pain. Once again,  thanks to all of you….   Serafina

Response:

Hi Serafina, Glad to hear that you have decided to stay with us. We can be weird,but fun. BJ "Serafina" <nappt…@bigfoot.com

wrote in message

news:hrBa7.26187$k7.5844227@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Thanks to all of your encouraging replies,  I shall NOT leave the Lupus group. Thanks to all you great people who show such interest in each other. I must say that in the Fibro group, there are many apparently people who want to complain about the medical profession and the lack of federal

money

being spent to do research. Thanks,    I just rejoined and and super happy about it. Some good news:  my pain management specialist put me on a new pain

reliever

which actually works.  About 50%  of my chest cavity pain has been

relieved.

I was Rxed a  Duragesic Patch  50 mg.   I recommend it for the reduction

of

pain. Once again,  thanks to all of you….   Serafina

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Question:

BL, TSH stands for thyroid stimulating hormone.  Read some endocrinology and you won’t find the concept funny, but appropriate. Andrew, TSH does indeed stand for thyroid stimulating hormone duh duh duh. IT IS NOT A THYROID HORMONE IT IS A PITUITARY HORMONE.  

So?  Aren’t we looking for a proper treatment as opposed to a label that agrees with your sensibilities? I sure am glad that Florida won’t let you prescibe meds or be a primary care

Actually, Florida does classify Acupuncturists as PCPs.  I live in NC, FWIW. So, wrong again, BL.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BL, TSH stands for thyroid stimulating hormone.  Read some endocrinology and you won’t find the concept funny, but appropriate. Andrew, TSH does indeed stand for thyroid stimulating hormone duh duh duh.  IT IS NOT A THYROID HORMONE IT IS A PITUITARY HORMONE.  I sure am glad that Florida won’t let you prescibe meds or be a primary care http://www.endocrineweb.com/thyfunction.html The thyroid hormones are T4, and T3.  TSH is a regulator, and an important one. IT IS A PITUITARY HORMONE.  It does NOT measure T4 and T3, which are thyroid hormones.  PERIOD. BL

LOL! Self-conceit may lead to self-destruction. Aesop (~550 BC) The computer is a moron. Peter Drucker I’m as pure as the driven slush. Tallulah Bankhead

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So even though TSH is a pituitary hormone, it could be useful in early diagnosis of hypothyroidism.

I never said it wasn’t.  But many doctors *only* measure TSH when a person complains of hypothyroid symptoms.  It is necessary but not sufficient to test TSH.   This article doesn’t go into that aspect of it, which is why I said that this was at least a start. BL

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BL, TSH stands for thyroid stimulating hormone.  Read some endocrinology and you won’t find the concept funny, but appropriate. Andrew, TSH does indeed stand for thyroid stimulating hormone duh duh duh. IT IS NOT A THYROID HORMONE IT IS A PITUITARY HORMONE.   So?  Aren’t we looking for a proper treatment as opposed to a label that agrees with your sensibilities? I sure am glad that Florida won’t let you prescibe meds or be a primary care Actually, Florida does classify Acupuncturists as PCPs.  I live in NC, FWIW. So, wrong again, BL.

Uh er,,,,,,,,,,I think you missed the point Andrew. You were in Florida when you were proclaiming that you could prescribe meds. Bl wasn’t wrong at all. She was pointing out what a big bag of wind you are. Perhaps you need a refresher course? Jan

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://thyroid.about.com/library/weekly/aa012301a.htm I thought you were ridiculing the use of TSH to diagnose hypothyroidism BL. This article suggests that TSH levels can be useful in diagnosing early hypothyroidism. The article suggests that the levels of TSH considered abnormal should be lowered. So the problem is NOT with getting TSH to evaluate thyroid function. The problem is, according to this article, what levels are used as normal values. So even though TSH is a pituitary hormone, it could be useful in early diagnosis of hypothyroidism. Aloha, Rich

Somehow, you missed the below: Maybe Stevie Barrett will put up a page about this???? And just maybe someday the ADA will get real and follow suit. Jan The AACE’s acknolwedgement lags years behind the efforts of a number of pioneering physicians and patient advocates — as well as what patients themselves have suspected. Almost four years ago, for example, Dr. A P Weetman, a professor of medicine, wrote in the article "Fortnightly review: Hypothyroidism: screening and subclinical disease" which appeared in the 19 April 1997 issue of the British Medical Journal, the following groundbreaking statement: ". . . even within the reference range of around 0.5-4.5 mU/l, a high thyroid stimulating hormone concentration (2 mU/l) was associated with an increased risk of future hypothyroidism. The simplest explanation is that thyroid disease is so common that many people predisposed to thyroid failure are included in a laboratory’s reference population, which raises the question whether thyroxine replacement is adequate in patients with thyroid stimulating hormone levels above 2 mU/l." Dr. David Derry, who was interviewed here at the site in July of 2000 by Mary Shomon, has said: "Why are we following a test which has no correlation with clinical presentation? The thyroidologists by consensus have decided that this test is the most useful for following treatment when in fact it is unrelated to how the patient feels. The consequences of this have been horrendous. Six years after their consensus decision Chronic fatigue and Fibromyalgia appeared. These are both hypothyroid conditions. But because their TSH was normal they have not been treated. The TSH needs to be scrapped and medical students taught again how to clinically recognize low thyroid conditions." Other physicians have been working with antibodies testing to evaluate thyroid function, and in some cases treating patients with normal range TSH values who had thyroid antibodies evident of the autoimmune disease process. Elizabeth Vliet, MD, who runs the popular women’s health centers, Her Place and who is author of the bestselling book, Screaming to be Heard: Hormonal Connections Women Suspect…and Doctors Ignore, has never believed that TSH tests are the indicator of a woman’s thyroid health. Since the mid 1990s, Dr. Vliet has been saying that symptoms, along with elevated thyroid antibodies and normal TSH, may be a reason for treatment with thyroid hormone. Here’s a quote from her book: "The problem I have found is that too often women are told their thyroid is normal without having the complete thyroid tests done. Of course, what most people, and many physicians, don’t realize is that…a ‘normal range’ on a laboratory report is just that: a range. A given person may require higher or lower levels to feel well and to function optimally. I think we must look at the lab results along with the clinical picture described by the patient…I have a series of more than a hundred patients, all but two are women, who had a normal TSH and turned out to have significantly elevated thyroid antibodies that meant they needed thyroid medication in order to feel normal. This type of oversight is particularly common with a type of thyroid disease called thyroiditis, which is about 25 times more common in females than males…a woman may experience the symptoms of disease months to years before TSH goes up…" In my own book, Living Well With Hypothyroidism: What Your Doctor Doesn’t Tell The current TSH levels used by laboratories to define the "normal" range of thyroid function, and the use of the TSH test as primary means of diagnosis need to be significantly reevaluated. The .5 to 5.5 "normal range" for thyroid function is just not enough information for diagnosis anymore. Research reported in the British Medical Journal found that TSH levels above 2 are likely not normal, and instead include people at high risk to develop thyroid disease. This means that the real "normal range" is probably far narrower, and more concentrated in the lower end of the range. New studies need to be conducted to look at this issue comprehensively, evaluating the true normal range for a population of individuals who have no thyroid antibodies, and who do not ever go on to develop thyroid disease in their lifetimes. Implications for Thyroid Patients In February of 2000, a groundbreaking study estimated that as many as 13 million Americans had undiagnosed thyroid disease. The vast majority of these people would be women, suffering from undiagnosed hypothyroidism. This Colorado Thyroid Disease Prevalence Study, which was written about extensively here at the site, used the standard diagnostic criteria to define hypothyroidism — that the TSH had to exceed the lab’s normal range, which for the purposes of this study, was 5.1 uU/ml. Broadening the lab diagnostic criteria then, to levels above 3 would mean that the Colorado Thyroid Disease Prevalence Study suggests that many more than 13 million Americans are likely to be defined as hypothyroid. If the AACE’s new criteria that TSH levels above 3 are suspect are widely disseminated, accepted, and put into practice — including, with HMOs and insurance companies — the implications for patients are profund. Many people who are suffering thyroid symptoms, such as the many symptoms detailed in my Hypothyroidism Symptoms Checklist, may now be considered hypothyroid and eligible to be diagnosed and treated — a development that could finally prevent suffering for many millions of people who are presently suffering from undiagnosed and untreated hypothyroidism. In addition, many endocrinologists have given hypothyroid patients only enough thyroid hormone replacement medication to lower TSH into the high-normal range. If levels above 3 are considered suspect, physicians may reevaluate their dosage strategies, and provide the high doses needed to keep patients at TSH levels under 3. The issue of optimal TSH — which some practitioners and many patients believe to be between a TSH of 1 and 2 — has been discussed at length here at the website (see Help, I’m Hypothyroid and I Still Don’t Feel Well) and is still a serious concern for many thyroid patients. ——

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, Florida does classify Acupuncturists as PCPs.  I live in NC, FWIW. So, wrong again, BL. Uh er,,,,,,,,,,I think you missed the point Andrew. You were in Florida when you were proclaiming that you could prescribe meds. Jan, don’t you EVER get tired of being wrong?  The discourse was about ordering blood tests, and yes, in Florida, Acupuncturists can do so.  They were doing so back then, but it was challenged.  The challenge did not stand. So, once again, you can’t remember the actual issue and you are wrong about the outcome.   Bl wasn’t wrong at all. She was pointing out what a big bag of wind you are. Perhaps you need a refresher course? Jan Perhaps you got far more mercury vapor exposure during your paranoid extraction than even you can accept.

Oh? So you do think it is a possibility? Poor Andrew Jan

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Actually, Florida does classify Acupuncturists as PCPs.  I live in NC, FWIW. So, wrong again, BL. Uh er,,,,,,,,,,I think you missed the point Andrew. You were in Florida when you were proclaiming that you could prescribe meds.

Jan, don’t you EVER get tired of being wrong?  The discourse was about ordering blood tests, and yes, in Florida, Acupuncturists can do so.  They were doing so back then, but it was challenged.  The challenge did not stand. So, once again, you can’t remember the actual issue and you are wrong about the outcome.   Bl wasn’t wrong at all. She was pointing out what a big bag of wind you are. Perhaps you need a refresher course? Jan

Perhaps you got far more mercury vapor exposure during your paranoid extraction than even you can accept. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Jan, Care to apologize for that last Just can’t do it, eh?  Lies make baby Jesus cry, Jan, so for Christ sake, stop with the pathological lying. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Uh er,,,,,,,,,,I think you missed the point Andrew. You were in Florida when you were proclaiming that you could prescribe meds.

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Jan, Care to apologize for that last Just can’t do it, eh?  Lies make baby Jesus cry, Jan, so for Christ sake, stop with the pathological lying.

News flash: Jesus is no longer a baby. These rest of your post makes no sense,,,,,,,,,as usual. Jan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Uh er,,,,,,,,,,I think you missed the point Andrew. You were in Florida when you were proclaiming that you could prescribe meds.

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BL, TSH stands for thyroid stimulating hormone.  Read some endocrinology and you won’t find the concept funny, but appropriate. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Yeah.  They are making progress, but still behind.  They talk about TSH only. Do you know that TSH isn’t even a thyroid hormone, but a pituitary one?  LOL. BL

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The AACE’s acknolwedgement lags years behind the efforts of a number of pioneering physicians and patient advocates — as well as what patients themselves have suspected.

Yeah.  They are making progress, but still behind.  They talk about TSH only. Do you know that TSH isn’t even a thyroid hormone, but a pituitary one?  LOL. BL

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BL, TSH stands for thyroid stimulating hormone.  Read some endocrinology and you won’t find the concept funny, but appropriate.

Andrew, TSH does indeed stand for thyroid stimulating hormone duh duh duh.  IT IS NOT A THYROID HORMONE IT IS A PITUITARY HORMONE.  I sure am glad that Florida won’t let you prescibe meds or be a primary care http://www.endocrineweb.com/thyfunction.html The thyroid hormones are T4, and T3.  TSH is a regulator, and an important one. IT IS A PITUITARY HORMONE.  It does NOT measure T4 and T3, which are thyroid hormones.  PERIOD. BL

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http://thyroid.about.com/library/weekly/aa012301a.htm

The AACE’s acknolwedgement lags years behind the efforts of a number of pioneering physicians and patient advocates — as well as what patients themselves have suspected. Almost four years ago, for example, Dr. A P Weetman, a professor of medicine, wrote in the article "Fortnightly review: Hypothyroidism: screening and subclinical disease" which appeared in the 19 April 1997 issue of the British Medical Journal, the following groundbreaking statement: HEY HEY there is still hope for the ADA. Maybe they will follow suit. What patients themselves had suspected, huh? Not what the doctors Hmmmm. Very interesting. Jan

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http://thyroid.about.com/library/weekly/aa012301a.htm

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