Question:

"DrBenway" <D…@somewhere.com

wrote in message

news:qnug51li5rkjrf0iu7rictad9268tv9f14@4ax.com…

As far as the 70 weeks I could actually probably do them as long as it stays like it has been, but the very rapid non intentional weight loss and the TSH indicator dropping all seem to point to hyper Thyroid related  problems which may ultimately make me say fuck TX (it’s not really dropping the VL as generally expected  and my liver was pretty good shape to start)

It is a difficult decision to make.  I was refused treatment for several years as my liver was only inflammed. Typically in the UK you had to wait for fibrosis before they would consider treating you.  If you do decide to stop tx then it will be vital to keep a close eye on the liver. Incidentally do you knwo roughly how long you have had it? A difficult decision – I wish you the very best.

How are your LFTs doing? (quite the opposite of you, my LFTs have responded well while my VL not well enough)

My LFT’s are still high – 119 (week 12), though did drop a small amount from week 8.  I am due another test next week.  My 12 week PCR confirmed the 4 and 8 weeks results so I am happy – well as happy as you can be on these drugs. Jonathan

Response:

Wow is that when they first started you on the Synthroid? when your TSH went down or when it bounced up?

The first TSH that was high, 49 I went on 50ug/day of synthroid, then 2 weeks later 100ug/day when it hit 150. Hell if you don’t have killer headaches great, but if you do don’t hesitate to ask for something strong like Norco’s (low in Tylenol 325mg)10mg. The whole Hyper stage came on pretty fast and furious, it was about a 2-3 week of wayyyy hyper, then I crashed. They did full panels for the thyroid, including an radioactive iodine uptake test.

That’s what I’m hoping to avoid, /if they can’t prevent that from happening, I have serious doubts about continuing TX (My VL hasn’t really responded as well as hoped anyway, rather save my thyroid)

Really a good point, I guess it depends on your liver status and how you feel about the whole thing.

Antenolol  hmmm vas ist dat?

It’s a class of drugs called "Beta Blockers". They slow the electrical pulses to your heart lowering your heartbeat. If your asthmatic you can’t take them.

Damn now it looks like I might begin to know what you’ve been through BTW how are you feeling now between any TX? (except the thyroid related stuff you are (still?) weaning off of ) You must have been a walking drugstore while traveling in SA (any problems carrying all the RX)  Are you planning on another bout of TX in the near future or gonna sit it out for a while?

Tomorrow I’ll see my TSH numbers and go from there. If they are real low, maybe I’ll just quit taking them and see what happens. I’m at a fairly low dose right now anyway. No problems with RX in South America. In Peru you can buy valium over the counter for about 30 cents apiece. I never saw or sought any cocaine. I’m sure it is around. Did chew the coca leaf, it was different. Makes your mouth numb and your teeth green!! haha. As for future treatment, not right now. I’ll wait a couple of years and see if some better drugs come out. Hopefully something without Ribaviran. Perhaps a better class of Interferon. Or some new stuff. For now I’m taking it easy, eating good foods. I feel ok these days, the anti-d’s I started on last month are working well, I feel much better. In two years I can also take early retirement for a while and that would be a good time to redo the treatment. I can always go back to work later, but would be guaranteed a salary. — Russ Visit Alaska @ http://www.tannersacre.com "DrBenway" <D…@somewhere.com

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On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:13:34 -0800, "Russ" <sourdo55 at yahoo.com wrote: yea that was me. Right about that time frame my TSH was about zero. Sleep was fucking impossible, I was irritable, antsy, try to sleep and just

toss

and turn and had that "restless leg syndrome" shit. Ambien didn’t do

nothing

for sleep. My heart was 100bpm at rest, I thought the fucking thing was going to pop!! Yea I lost weight too. Make sure your doc is on top of

your > >TSH, test every couple of weeks cause I’ll bet you $20 when your thyroid > >dries up your TSH will rocket. Mine went from near zero to 50 in 3 weeks, > Wow is that when they first started you on the Synthroid? when your > TSH went down or when it bounced up? So far I haven’t noticed any > heart rate or energy increase or insomnia and as far as ADs only Sam-e > so far (damn haven’t even got a script for PKs/Norcots)  I still feel > pretty much okay > >then to 149!! Don’t worry about the weight loss, as soon as your thyroid > >quits you’ll put on 10 lbs in a week!!!

That’s what I’m hoping to avoid, /if they can’t prevent that from happening, I have serious doubts about continuing TX (My VL hasn’t really responded as well as hoped anyway, rather save my thyroid)

> >It was strange, going from a hyped > >up maniac to this fat slumbering always cold tired sick blob within a month.

My BCLD put me on Atenolol (Beta Blocker) to slow my heart down and that helped calm me down, within 2-3 hours. Looking back, Xanax would have

been

good too, I was over doing the Norco’s to calm down and went through a months supply in two weeks. I went on Synthroid (levothyroxin gen) as

soon

as my TSH raised. It took till about the last two months of treatment

till

my TSH leveled off around 8.something. Around the last month of treatment

I

was feeling a little better, the headaches weren’t quite so bad. It takes quite a while for Synthroid to do it’s thing. I noticed while in the HYPERthyroiditis stage drugs were metabolized very quickly, like pain

meds,

in and out. 2-3 hours was all I would get out of the Norco’s. Now I’m going to assume that you will end up on Synthroid but when you

get

to the end, and your doctor thinks you have to take it for life, tell him

to

fuck off like I did. He wanted to increase my dose of Synthroid at the

end

of my treatment and I told him NO! I wanted to wait and see if my thyroid would start to take over. He was adamant that I would be on it for life. After hearing about Thomas and Juanita, having the same problems and now

off

of the synthroid I knew different. Good advice but I think at this stage they need to do a full thyroid panel (T3 and T4 levels) ? I’m still hoping this is just a "spike" and not yet permanent damage. Did they ever tell you might consider stopping TX to save your thyroid? was it ever an option given to you? (again I’m reacting to lab results, have yet to talk to the CRNP.) You can get a test for antibodies that attack your thyroid. That will tell you if you have the antibodies that

your

probably going to take synthroid all your life. I never had the test but

4

months after treatment my TSH went to 4, then to 1.4 6 months post

treatment

and I had already started reducing my dose. 8 months after tx my TSH was

2.1

@ 75 ug day, I went to 50ug/day and I will know Monday about my TSH test from Monday. Hopefully I’ll cut that dose in half and be done with it all

in

two months from now. And if I do get off of them I will send my BCLD a letter letting him know what a closed minded SOB he is. Getting off the Antenolol wasn’t easy either, it took two try’s. I stayed

on

them till about 2 months after treatment. I waited till I was off the

Zoloft

first. One thing at a time you know? You have to wean your self off of

them,

then go through a couple weeks of some heart palpations and headaches but

it > >does go away. My heart rate was a bit elevated for a month or so but > >eventually slowed down.

Antenolol  hmmm vas ist dat?

> >Hold on and take it easy, that Interferon induced Thyroiditis is a bitch and

will make you twice as sick as the treatment. I hope your on anti-d’s. I

had

the worst goddam never ending headaches I ever had in my life while on

that

stuff. It would take 2-3 10mg hydrocodone just to get me off the couch to

go

do something, like eat. I drank water till my pee was clear and because

my

mouth was as dry as a desert. I did everything I could do to fight the sides. Took walks (keep some TP in your pocket and walk near the woods!! haha), ate simple to make stuff, canned soup, a slimfast with a banana blended made a good riba chaser in the morning. Herbal teas, like mint

were

soothing to the tummy. I ate a lot of ice-cream because of the mouth

sores, > >it just felt good. Sour candies were good to have as my mouth was always > >dry. I remember thinking about the Interferon drying up my thyroid, my > >saliva glands, my eyes, wondering what other endocrinology disorders were > >going on. Nasty stuff this Chemo shit. > >hang in there Ben, I know what your going through!

Damn now it looks like I might begin to know what you’ve been through BTW how are you feeling now between any TX? (except the thyroid related stuff you are (still?) weaning off of ) You must have been a walking drugstore while traveling in SA (any problems carrying all the RX)  Are you planning on another bout of TX in the near future or gonna sit it out for a while?

> Feel better > DB

Response:

On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 20:00:46 +0000 (UTC), "rasputin" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<ras.pu…@btinternet.com

wrote: Hi there DrB Not sure I could be so jolly if facing 70 weeks of treatment, but it does seem that you have a good plan there.  I know nothing about thyroids so will not comment.  I found following your progress really helpful when facing this treatment – you are 5 weeks ahead of me. You say you are having a hard time restarting weights, if you still feel up to exercising have you thought about switching to something else.  My back up plan if the weight training became too much was to try yoga.  I have always fancied being more supple, who knows I may try it anyway. Good to hear from you Jonathan

Hey Jonathan (been a while, had more  home system hardrive problems ) What I’ve been thinking is to just start at a lower start weight but the last time I tried (also a lot of business and personal travel) I was already down a few too many pounds (almost 10 in about 3-4 weeks, but fortunately my bf% is also dropping so at least it’s not lean mass I’m loosing)  I’ll give it another shot soon and see if I can get back into regular lifting. As far as the 70 weeks I could actually probably do them as long as it stays like it has been, but the very rapid non intentional weight loss and the TSH indicator dropping all seem to point to hyper Thyroid related  problems which may ultimately make me say fuck TX (it’s not really dropping the VL as generally expected  and my liver was pretty good shape to start) So I’ll keep everyone posted on how they decide to proceed with TX How are your LFTs doing? (quite the opposite of you, my LFTs have responded well while my VL not well enough) DB

Response:

On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:13:34 -0800, "Russ" <sourdo55 at yahoo.com

wrote:

yea that was me. Right about that time frame my TSH was about zero. Sleep was fucking impossible, I was irritable, antsy, try to sleep and just toss and turn and had that "restless leg syndrome" shit. Ambien didn’t do nothing for sleep. My heart was 100bpm at rest, I thought the fucking thing was going to pop!! Yea I lost weight too. Make sure your doc is on top of your TSH, test every couple of weeks cause I’ll bet you $20 when your thyroid dries up your TSH will rocket. Mine went from near zero to 50 in 3 weeks,

Wow is that when they first started you on the Synthroid? when your TSH went down or when it bounced up? So far I haven’t noticed any heart rate or energy increase or insomnia and as far as ADs only Sam-e so far (damn haven’t even got a script for PKs/Norcots)  I still feel pretty much okay

then to 149!! Don’t worry about the weight loss, as soon as your thyroid quits you’ll put on 10 lbs in a week!!!

That’s what I’m hoping to avoid, /if they can’t prevent that from happening, I have serious doubts about continuing TX (My VL hasn’t really responded as well as hoped anyway, rather save my thyroid) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

It was strange, going from a hyped up maniac to this fat slumbering always cold tired sick blob within a month. My BCLD put me on Atenolol (Beta Blocker) to slow my heart down and that helped calm me down, within 2-3 hours. Looking back, Xanax would have been good too, I was over doing the Norco’s to calm down and went through a months supply in two weeks. I went on Synthroid (levothyroxin gen) as soon as my TSH raised. It took till about the last two months of treatment till my TSH leveled off around 8.something. Around the last month of treatment I was feeling a little better, the headaches weren’t quite so bad. It takes quite a while for Synthroid to do it’s thing. I noticed while in the HYPERthyroiditis stage drugs were metabolized very quickly, like pain meds, in and out. 2-3 hours was all I would get out of the Norco’s. Now I’m going to assume that you will end up on Synthroid but when you get to the end, and your doctor thinks you have to take it for life, tell him to fuck off like I did. He wanted to increase my dose of Synthroid at the end of my treatment and I told him NO! I wanted to wait and see if my thyroid would start to take over. He was adamant that I would be on it for life. After hearing about Thomas and Juanita, having the same problems and now off of the synthroid I knew different.

Good advice but I think at this stage they need to do a full thyroid panel (T3 and T4 levels) ? I’m still hoping this is just a "spike" and not yet permanent damage. Did they ever tell you might consider stopping TX to save your thyroid? was it ever an option given to you? (again I’m reacting to lab results, have yet to talk to the CRNP.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

You can get a test for antibodies that attack your thyroid. That will tell you if you have the antibodies that your probably going to take synthroid all your life. I never had the test but 4 months after treatment my TSH went to 4, then to 1.4 6 months post treatment and I had already started reducing my dose. 8 months after tx my TSH was 2.1 @ 75 ug day, I went to 50ug/day and I will know Monday about my TSH test from Monday. Hopefully I’ll cut that dose in half and be done with it all in two months from now. And if I do get off of them I will send my BCLD a letter letting him know what a closed minded SOB he is. Getting off the Antenolol wasn’t easy either, it took two try’s. I stayed on them till about 2 months after treatment. I waited till I was off the Zoloft first. One thing at a time you know? You have to wean your self off of them, then go through a couple weeks of some heart palpations and headaches but it does go away. My heart rate was a bit elevated for a month or so but eventually slowed down.

Antenolol  hmmm vas ist dat? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hold on and take it easy, that Interferon induced Thyroiditis is a bitch and will make you twice as sick as the treatment. I hope your on anti-d’s. I had the worst goddam never ending headaches I ever had in my life while on that stuff. It would take 2-3 10mg hydrocodone just to get me off the couch to go do something, like eat. I drank water till my pee was clear and because my mouth was as dry as a desert. I did everything I could do to fight the sides. Took walks (keep some TP in your pocket and walk near the woods!! haha), ate simple to make stuff, canned soup, a slimfast with a banana blended made a good riba chaser in the morning. Herbal teas, like mint were soothing to the tummy. I ate a lot of ice-cream because of the mouth sores, it just felt good. Sour candies were good to have as my mouth was always dry. I remember thinking about the Interferon drying up my thyroid, my saliva glands, my eyes, wondering what other endocrinology disorders were going on. Nasty stuff this Chemo shit. hang in there Ben, I know what your going through!

Damn now it looks like I might begin to know what you’ve been through BTW how are you feeling now between any TX? (except the thyroid related stuff you are (still?) weaning off of ) You must have been a walking drugstore while traveling in SA (any problems carrying all the RX)  Are you planning on another bout of TX in the near future or gonna sit it out for a while? Feel better DB

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 23:40:18 GMT, "Shawn" <m…@privacy.net

wrote: Hi Dr.B (who didn’t play one on t.v.)hehehe…. Just a note from my personal experience. When I went in for testing to see how far my thyroid had failed (almost undetectable in my lab work) I had to take four HIGHLY radioactive pills. Two days later my kidneys failed and I was rushed into the hospital. I firmly believe that those test pills are what caused my renal failure. None of the doctors will take responsibility for anything, so here I am crippled ,house bound and in constant pain. So much so that my BCLD had me placed under the care of the local hospice organization to ease end of life problems etc… I would highly recommend that if your nephrologist wants to go the radioactive route. Rake him/her over the coals as to the benefits of such a test and what will the treatment be (can you physically stand it and the drugs associated etc…) I learned after the test that the only option open to me was to be treated with prednisone, to which we both knew I’m deathly allergic to. So what was the point of the test I asked?? I still haven’t received an answer to that question other than a staggering radiological bill.

Hey Shawn  that’s particularly scary  as I started TX with a small 4 mm Kidney Stone and 6 moths later they’ve noticed  a cyst (which I was told is quite common, don’t worry be happy etc) I had not realized there was even a remote or indirect  link between Thyroid and Kidney. (my kidney’s often feel mildly inflamed as is) Very sorry to hear about your own experience sounds pretty damn horrible. You seem to manage to keep a great spirit, I really wish you continued strength and spirit.  (and or whatever it takes for you) I’ll keep my eyes and ears open  regarding any "radio" work, From what I’ve read a complete Thyroid panel should be the next step. But haven’t talked to the CRNP yet Hope he does more than ignore this. Thanks  again for the warning. DB

Response:

Hi Dr.B (who didn’t play one on t.v.)hehehe…. Just a note from my personal experience. When I went in for testing to see how far my thyroid had failed (almost undetectable in my lab work) I had to take four HIGHLY radioactive pills. Two days later my kidneys failed and I was rushed into the hospital. I firmly believe that those test pills are what caused my renal failure. None of the doctors will take responsibility for anything, so here I am crippled ,house bound and in constant pain. So much so that my BCLD had me placed under the care of the local hospice organization to ease end of life problems etc… I would highly recommend that if your nephrologist wants to go the radioactive route. Rake him/her over the coals as to the benefits of such a test and what will the treatment be (can you physically stand it and the drugs associated etc…) I learned after the test that the only option open to me was to be treated with prednisone, to which we both knew I’m deathly allergic to. So what was the point of the test I asked?? I still haven’t received an answer to that question other than a staggering radiological bill. — Shawn (use the "reply feature on your browser to send a private reply via E-Mail.) "DrBenway" <D…@somewhere.com

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Hey guys Just finished shot 21 and got the lab results from shot 20 (Far from what you would call great) My VL is still quite detectable at 1,360 IU/ml (dropping from the 1.7M,  30 weeks ago) I know the odds but my CRNP’s plan was to wait until undetectable and start 48 weeks from then (that would be 70 weeks best case now <Grin) But I’ve been feeling weaker and joints are sore (real hard time restarting with weights) I also started dropping weight pretty fast without even trying almost 10 lbs over the last month and a half So the weight loss seems to fit the way my TSH  levels have dropped My TSH was average around 2.2 for the first 12 weeks. It dropped to 2.0 in week 16 and now in week 20 it dropped to 0.014! I’ve yet  to talk  to my CRNP (I get a copy of my lab results sent to primary physician, so I see them before talking to the CRNP!) I remember someone also had their Thyroid go south on them  around week 20 (was that you Russ? sorry guess the fog is kicking in) Anyway just trying to get the dirt on how they treat this or can I consider my Thyroid permanently fried (and all for a still detectable VL  shit) Well I would appreciate anyone’s experiences here (least I’ll know what to expect) Oh BTW while I really don’t feel all that bad as a whole I do admit that after 20 weeks the individual little side effects do combine to fuck with your overall mindset. But if it didn’t get much worse I could deal with another 48 weeks of it. But not sure how this Thyroid thing will bode Be Well DrBenway

Response:

Hi there DrB Not sure I could be so jolly if facing 70 weeks of treatment, but it does seem that you have a good plan there.  I know nothing about thyroids so will not comment.  I found following your progress really helpful when facing this treatment – you are 5 weeks ahead of me. You say you are having a hard time restarting weights, if you still feel up to exercising have you thought about switching to something else.  My back up plan if the weight training became too much was to try yoga.  I have always fancied being more supple, who knows I may try it anyway. Good to hear from you Jonathan

Response:

Hey guys Just finished shot 21 and got the lab results from shot 20 (Far from what you would call great) My VL is still quite detectable at 1,360 IU/ml (dropping from the 1.7M,  30 weeks ago) I know the odds but my CRNP’s plan was to wait until undetectable and start 48 weeks from then (that would be 70 weeks best case now <Grin

)

But I’ve been feeling weaker and joints are sore (real hard time restarting with weights) I also started dropping weight pretty fast without even trying almost 10 lbs over the last month and a half So the weight loss seems to fit the way my TSH  levels have dropped My TSH was average around 2.2 for the first 12 weeks. It dropped to 2.0 in week 16 and now in week 20 it dropped to 0.014! I’ve yet  to talk  to my CRNP (I get a copy of my lab results sent to primary physician, so I see them before talking to the CRNP!) I remember someone also had their Thyroid go south on them  around week 20 (was that you Russ? sorry guess the fog is kicking in) Anyway just trying to get the dirt on how they treat this or can I consider my Thyroid permanently fried (and all for a still detectable VL  shit) Well I would appreciate anyone’s experiences here (least I’ll know what to expect) Oh BTW while I really don’t feel all that bad as a whole I do admit that after 20 weeks the individual little side effects do combine to fuck with your overall mindset. But if it didn’t get much worse I could deal with another 48 weeks of it. But not sure how this Thyroid thing will bode Be Well DrBenway

Response:

yea that was me. Right about that time frame my TSH was about zero. Sleep was fucking impossible, I was irritable, antsy, try to sleep and just toss and turn and had that "restless leg syndrome" shit. Ambien didn’t do nothing for sleep. My heart was 100bpm at rest, I thought the fucking thing was going to pop!! Yea I lost weight too. Make sure your doc is on top of your TSH, test every couple of weeks cause I’ll bet you $20 when your thyroid dries up your TSH will rocket. Mine went from near zero to 50 in 3 weeks, then to 149!! Don’t worry about the weight loss, as soon as your thyroid quits you’ll put on 10 lbs in a week!!! It was strange, going from a hyped up maniac to this fat slumbering always cold tired sick blob within a month. My BCLD put me on Atenolol (Beta Blocker) to slow my heart down and that helped calm me down, within 2-3 hours. Looking back, Xanax would have been good too, I was over doing the Norco’s to calm down and went through a months supply in two weeks. I went on Synthroid (levothyroxin gen) as soon as my TSH raised. It took till about the last two months of treatment till my TSH leveled off around 8.something. Around the last month of treatment I was feeling a little better, the headaches weren’t quite so bad. It takes quite a while for Synthroid to do it’s thing. I noticed while in the HYPERthyroiditis stage drugs were metabolized very quickly, like pain meds, in and out. 2-3 hours was all I would get out of the Norco’s. Now I’m going to assume that you will end up on Synthroid but when you get to the end, and your doctor thinks you have to take it for life, tell him to fuck off like I did. He wanted to increase my dose of Synthroid at the end of my treatment and I told him NO! I wanted to wait and see if my thyroid would start to take over. He was adamant that I would be on it for life. After hearing about Thomas and Juanita, having the same problems and now off of the synthroid I knew different. You can get a test for antibodies that attack your thyroid. That will tell you if you have the antibodies that your probably going to take synthroid all your life. I never had the test but 4 months after treatment my TSH went to 4, then to 1.4 6 months post treatment and I had already started reducing my dose. 8 months after tx my TSH was 2.1 @ 75 ug day, I went to 50ug/day and I will know Monday about my TSH test from Monday. Hopefully I’ll cut that dose in half and be done with it all in two months from now. And if I do get off of them I will send my BCLD a letter letting him know what a closed minded SOB he is. Getting off the Antenolol wasn’t easy either, it took two try’s. I stayed on them till about 2 months after treatment. I waited till I was off the Zoloft first. One thing at a time you know? You have to wean your self off of them, then go through a couple weeks of some heart palpations and headaches but it does go away. My heart rate was a bit elevated for a month or so but eventually slowed down. Hold on and take it easy, that Interferon induced Thyroiditis is a bitch and will make you twice as sick as the treatment. I hope your on anti-d’s. I had the worst goddam never ending headaches I ever had in my life while on that stuff. It would take 2-3 10mg hydrocodone just to get me off the couch to go do something, like eat. I drank water till my pee was clear and because my mouth was as dry as a desert. I did everything I could do to fight the sides. Took walks (keep some TP in your pocket and walk near the woods!! haha), ate simple to make stuff, canned soup, a slimfast with a banana blended made a good riba chaser in the morning. Herbal teas, like mint were soothing to the tummy. I ate a lot of ice-cream because of the mouth sores, it just felt good. Sour candies were good to have as my mouth was always dry. I remember thinking about the Interferon drying up my thyroid, my saliva glands, my eyes, wondering what other endocrinology disorders were going on. Nasty stuff this Chemo shit. hang in there Ben, I know what your going through! — Russ Visit Alaska @ http://www.tannersacre.com "DrBenway" <D…@somewhere.com

wrote in message

news:mkqf51d05u2ujnrd7u95uephvpikc12t4d@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hey guys Just finished shot 21 and got the lab results from shot 20 (Far from what you would call great) My VL is still quite detectable at 1,360 IU/ml (dropping from the 1.7M,  30 weeks ago) I know the odds but my CRNP’s plan was to wait until undetectable and start 48 weeks from then (that would be 70 weeks best case now <Grin) But I’ve been feeling weaker and joints are sore (real hard time restarting with weights) I also started dropping weight pretty fast without even trying almost 10 lbs over the last month and a half So the weight loss seems to fit the way my TSH  levels have dropped My TSH was average around 2.2 for the first 12 weeks. It dropped to 2.0 in week 16 and now in week 20 it dropped to 0.014! I’ve yet  to talk  to my CRNP (I get a copy of my lab results sent to primary physician, so I see them before talking to the CRNP!) I remember someone also had their Thyroid go south on them  around week 20 (was that you Russ? sorry guess the fog is kicking in) Anyway just trying to get the dirt on how they treat this or can I consider my Thyroid permanently fried (and all for a still detectable VL  shit) Well I would appreciate anyone’s experiences here (least I’ll know what to expect) Oh BTW while I really don’t feel all that bad as a whole I do admit that after 20 weeks the individual little side effects do combine to fuck with your overall mindset. But if it didn’t get much worse I could deal with another 48 weeks of it. But not sure how this Thyroid thing will bode Be Well DrBenway

Response:

Question:

Greetings friends, A few months ago, my T level, first time ever measured, was 175. Doctor didn’t seem alarmed and not knowing any better at the time, I didn’t pursue it. The other day, after nagging fatigue and depression, and after getting good info from this newsgroup, I went to the doc again and he agreed that 175 was indeed low. I started T Gel 10%, 2x / day  from Gulfsouth (based on pharmacist recommendation) and will continue for a month, then drop down to 1X / day. I also convinced doc to order tests. Interestingly, my T-Level came back at 320 this time, prior to starting TRT, up from 175. Is TRT still recommended? I’ve been on the gel for 6 days now. I don’t feel any increase in energy or libido.  Instead I feel very relaxed, like I’ve had a couple of beers. If anything my libido is less now and I need more sleep. Is this normal? How long does it take before my T-Level is normalized? Is TRT the best course of action at this point, or should I pursue HCG, given my LH is normal? Thanks Guys Results below are BEFORE starting on T-GEL. 10/17/2003  blood drawn at 11:30AM                                 Reference TESTOSTERONE             Total  320              260 – 1000         Free     71.2           50 – 210         % Free 2.22%            1 – 2.7 ESTRADIOL       31              <52   DHEA, Serum     6.1             2.3 – 12.8 LH              4.5             1.5 – 9.3 FSH             7.5             1.4 – 18.1 THYROID, TSH    2.08            0.35 – 5.50

Response:

If you’re really a teacher in real life, perhaps that’s why… teachers usually have great presentation skills and can think on their feet, too.

I am a math teacher. On the negative side, 1) You don’t say what the amount of T gel you’re using (probably not enough)

Currently, 1 squirt 2 times a day. Each squirt is 1 cc. gel, containing 100mg T. So I am applying 200mg/day T. HCG is of course an option (especially if your FSH/LH is low…

Can I still use HCG with my normal LH level of 4.5? It would be hard to convince this GP to go along with it. especially if you want to have kids… and especially if you’re concerned about shrinking testes), but most consumers/doctors don’t even know (or don’t want to know) about this option. Doctors rarely mention it (did your doctor mention HCG to you?)

No I actually mentioned it to my doctor, having learned about it in this NG. The doc had no clue about HCG and didn’t want to go there. I hope this helps.

Thanks a bunch Rich By the way, forgot to mention that I am 44. Also, when is the best time to apply the 2 gel applications?

Response:

Hello ST, I am a math teacher.

Teachers are good people… and I love math. Currently, 1 squirt 2 times a day. Each squirt is 1 cc. gel, containing

100mg T. So I am applying 200mg/day T. Your GP does have guts… 200 mg means the approximate equivalent of  four (4) single-use 5g packets of Androgel per day… pretty courageous…. the recommended starting dose of Androgel is one (1) pack per day….. but don’t be alarmed… over 90% of this 200 mg is excreted…. and while Androgel is optimized for maximum absorbtion, chances are the compounded gel you’re using is not…. also, unless serum T is 10 times normal, there are no reported overdoses. To determine optimal dose, generally you need to A) keep good records, B) start out slowly, and C) increase the dose slowly. A theoretical example would be T = 50 mg/day for 3 weeks, 75 mg/day for 3 weeks, 112 mg/day for 3 weeks, 169 mg/day, etc. and after each 3-week time period you would want to go to the same lab between 8:00 and 9:00 a.m. and get your T level(s) checked. HCG is of course an option (especially if your FSH/LH is low… Can I still use HCG with my normal LH level of 4.5?

Theoretically, yes, you could use HCG when LH is normal. Yes, LH = 4.5 is normal, and assuming the normal reference range for LH is "1.0 to 10.0", a real "can do" GP would see a potential room for improvement (up to 10.0), but a negative GP would see no hope for improvement and he’d only give you a very logical explanation as to why he couldn’t do it. Practically speaking, however it’s *not* a good idea to use T in tandem with HCG (or anything else). At least not right now when you’re starting out. At this time your priority should be to determine the ideal dose for your T. And it’s usually an unneeded distraction to try to monitor serum T concentration when the latter is influenced by *two* variables (T and HCG) as opposed to one (T). By the way, forgot to mention that I am 44.

But if you *really* want to be practical, and if you’re only 44, it’s a good idea to try HCG before T supplementation, and come back to this GP later, because once you start down on the slippery slope of TRT, it will be increasingly harder to return, because long-term use of T will shut off your production of your own T, and based on the "use it or lose it" principle, your testes will gradually shrink to near zero in diameter. No I actually mentioned it to my doctor, having learned about it in this

NG. The doc had no clue about HCG and didn’t want to go there. This is one good reason why it’s a good idea to use someone like dr.Shippen first (for HCG), and come back to this GP later (for T), if HCG is not working for you. It would be hard to convince this GP to go along with it.

It is hard to convince *most* GPs, because you first need to find a GP with HCG experience *and* a "can do" attitude, and there are few GPs whose resumes fit this very simple, short, two-item job description. Also, when is the best time to apply the 2 gel applications?

The most popular answer is, "Apply all of it in the morning, because this is similar to the timing of natural production of T". But if you ask me, "Do it at the same times every day", "Two applications per day are better than only one", and "Feel free to do whatever is the easiest for you". For example, there are guys who go to the gym at noon, take a shower, and apply T after right after the shower. And then they wait approx.12 hours and apply T right before turning in for the night. Thanks a bunch Rich

You’re welcome. I hope this helps. Rich

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a math teacher…

Response:

Hello ST, On the positive side, 1) The test results did help, 2) You had the guts to persue this, and 3) Your doctor had the guts to persue this, despite of a recent "normal" reading… and the latter usually turns doctors off. 4) If you’re really a teacher in real life, perhaps that’s why… teachers usually have great presentation skills and can think on their feet, too. On the negative side, 1) You don’t say what the amount of T gel you’re using (probably not enough), 2) One month on T is not long enough for a T trial to see anything definite (three months would be more like it), 3) To assume that a borderline 320 is normal for you would be a mistake IMO, although you will find no shortage of doctors who will be quick to discontinue all TRT at the first sign of borderline normalcy, 4) You’re expecting too much at this point of time… in the first couple of weeks it’s only a placebo effect, if any, and in the first 2-3 months usually there is no obvious increase in energy/libido either. 5) One problem is, if you absorb 5 mg external T per day, your system can and will reduce T production by 5 mg per day, and for this reason you’re not likely to see the difference (if the external T is only a low dose). HCG is of course an option (especially if your FSH/LH is low… and especially if you want to have kids… and especially if you’re concerned about shrinking testes), but most consumers/doctors don’t even know (or don’t want to know) about this option. Doctors rarely mention it (did your doctor mention HCG to you?), perhaps because the administration of HCG requires experience than doctors do NOT have. Ideally the HCG vs. T issue is something you want to consider BEFORE you start out on T… isn’t it remarkable (I mean whatever our decision is) how we tend to get unsure of our decision… I mean sometimes we do a great job at sabotaging our own progress… if the doctor doesn’t get cold feet… then we get cold feet )) I hope this helps. Rich

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings friends, A few months ago, my T level, first time ever measured, was 175…

Response:

Question:

J, I’m a Stewart. Well, my genes are anyway. I’ve been trying to learn Gaelic from a web site. Candi

Response:

go girl ! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Candi Bowen wrote:

J, I’m a Stewart. Well, my genes are anyway. I’ve been trying to learn Gaelic from a web site. Candi

Response:

"Candi Bowen" <reen…@neo.rr.com

wrote in message <news:bwZ8b.58621$3b2.7681258@twister.neo.rr.com… J, I’m a Stewart. Well, my genes are anyway. I’ve been trying to learn Gaelic from a web site. Candi

Hi Candi, I am a Johnston.  My family were lowlanders.  They were called the "Gentle Johnstons", but I understand that they were anything but. They were a rough group.

Response:

In article <112adbed.0309141646.646e4…@posting.google.com

,

 johnjohnston2…@msn.com (Wesley) wrote:

"Candi Bowen" <reen…@neo.rr.com wrote in message <news:bwZ8b.58621$3b2.7681258@twister.neo.rr.com… J, I’m a Stewart. Well, my genes are anyway. I’ve been trying to learn Gaelic from a web site. Candi Hi Candi, I am a Johnston.  My family were lowlanders.  They were called the "Gentle Johnstons", but I understand that they were anything but. They were a rough group.

Cymric Lowlanders here – meaning we were Welsh until sometime in the 14th century or so. Was in Scotland until the late 1600s, then in Ireland in service of William of Orange; won the Battle of Boyne 1690 and moved to America, 1718. — "Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner." – Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather

Response:

The Gaelic websites that give you verbal pronunciations are kewl, but I still can’t get that gutteral sound down. Candi ———- In article <bk3kqc$oj4i…@ID-180048.news.uni-berlin.de

, REP

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<r…@inanna.com

wrote: In article <112adbed.0309141646.646e4…@posting.google.com, johnjohnston2…@msn.com (Wesley) wrote: "Candi Bowen" <reen…@neo.rr.com wrote in message <news:bwZ8b.58621$3b2.7681258@twister.neo.rr.com… J, I’m a Stewart. Well, my genes are anyway. I’ve been trying to learn Gaelic from a web site. Candi Hi Candi, I am a Johnston.  My family were lowlanders.  They were called the "Gentle Johnstons", but I understand that they were anything but. They were a rough group. Cymric Lowlanders here – meaning we were Welsh until sometime in the 14th century or so. Was in Scotland until the late 1600s, then in Ireland in service of William of Orange; won the Battle of Boyne 1690 and moved to America, 1718. — "Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner." – Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather

Response:

I forgot to ask Candi, how’s your beautiful horse, doing? Hugs J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Candi Bowen wrote:

J, I’m a Stewart. Well, my genes are anyway. I’ve been trying to learn Gaelic from a web site. Candi

Response:

Maybe a video so a person can see their mouth, neck etc (when they speak)? J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Candi Bowen wrote:

The Gaelic websites that give you verbal pronunciations are kewl, but I still can’t get that gutteral sound down. Candi

Response:

I descend, in part, from the Buchannan Clan, with a *possible* connection to royalty.  Oh…My…GOODNESS! I’m really just of a Heinz 57 variety though. Maggie

Response:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:56:57 -0500 (CDT), Marg Watson wrote:

I descend, in part, from the Buchannan Clan, with a *possible* connection to royalty.  Oh…My…GOODNESS! I’m really just of a Heinz 57 variety though. Maggie

I must agree with that last line for myself. The Scottish part: Ross clan The "royalty part: Wongunk tribe of New Haven, Connecticutt Timothy

Response:

My horse isn’t doing well. She’s having xrays of her feet on Fri to see how much rotation of the coffin bone there is. There’s obviously some because it’s causing a large bruise on her sole, meaning it (the bone) could be ready to pop out the bottom of her foot. This is a bad thing. Candi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I forgot to ask Candi, how’s your beautiful horse, doing? Hugs J Candi Bowen wrote: J, I’m a Stewart. Well, my genes are anyway. I’ve been trying to learn Gaelic from a web site. Candi

Response:

Yup, Heinz 57 here. I’m about as American as you can get. My father’s family was here prior to the Revolution. I’m a Rittenhouse. But there is lots of Welsh, Scotsmen, Irish, and Dutch, along with lots of English, and a little German from my mom’s side. There’s supposed to be blue blood in there. (Yeah, right. Maybe that’s why I get so cold. LOL) Bev "Marg Watson" <JD…@webtv.net

wrote in message

news:806-3F669819-502@storefull-2158.public.lawson.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I descend, in part, from the Buchannan Clan, with a *possible* connection to royalty.  Oh…My…GOODNESS! I’m really just of a Heinz 57 variety though. Maggie

Response:

Wes, maybe that is were you get the courage to fight so hard. Bev "Wesley" <johnjohnston2…@msn.com

wrote in message

news:112adbed.0309141646.646e4076@posting.google.com… > "Candi Bowen" <reen…@neo.rr.com

wrote in message

<news:bwZ8b.58621$3b2.7681258@twister.neo.rr.com

…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

J, I’m a Stewart. Well, my genes are anyway. I’ve been trying to learn Gaelic from a web site. Candi Hi Candi, I am a Johnston.  My family were lowlanders.  They were called the "Gentle Johnstons", but I understand that they were anything but. They were a rough group.

Response:

Hello Candi, I’m sorry to hear that. A while back when you mentioned "founder", I searched it and a web site said something like "keep off their feet for a month? (it was quite a while they had to be kept off their feet). I didn’t post it, coz I don’t know "horse conditions", but at the time, I remembered another horse condition where they do Pool therapy …keep the horse in a pool held up by supports/slings to the body, so it’s feet don’t touch the ground (and keep their weight off the feet). I forget the websites, but here are two that I was looking at http://www.recoveryeq.com/laminitis_founder.htm (not for the product, but the other info) http://www.naturalhorsetrim.com/ The other was hypothyroid and weight, on another newsgroup was an announcement for peoole with thyroid cancer a new TSH injection to get the thyroid TSH level working faster. I think it’s specific to humans. but wondered if such can be done for a horse? (without speeding up the TSH too fast and being dangerous)??? FWIW (for what it’s worth) ( ( ( Candi and Jess ) ) ) J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Candi Bowen wrote:

My horse isn’t doing well. She’s having xrays of her feet on Fri to see how much rotation of the coffin bone there is. There’s obviously some because it’s causing a large bruise on her sole, meaning it (the bone) could be ready to pop out the bottom of her foot. This is a bad thing.

Response:

I’m so sorry Candi.  I’m still hoping & praying for the best.  I know you must be heartbroken over all of this. Gentle Hugs, Maggie

Response:

Thanks J & Maggie, Founder takes more like a year to recover from, not a month. As far as keeping a horse off its feet for a month, that’s just not possible. They have over 70 ft. of small intestine, & the large intestine is 25 ft long, so along with other organs, if they lie down for more than 2 hours, the organs pushing on their lungs will cause them to smother. That’s why you always see people trying to get a downed horse up. In this case, I can’t try to make her walk; I have to let her do that on her own, if she can, because we still don’t know where that Coffin bone’s at; we know it’s close to the sole because of the bruise. When the sole bruises, it’s red, not blue. If the bone is close & ready project out of her sole, the last thing you want to do is jolt it. Actually, founder is a lot like lupus; it’s not a bacterial or viral disease; it’s a metabolic problem caused by inflammation of the connective tissue inside their foot. When there’s inflammation, there’s swelling, & with a horse’s hoof it just doesn’t have anywhere to go but down. Xnsi ———- In article <3F6726A2.6786F…@execulink.com

, J <Pho…@invalid.invalid

wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hello Candi, I’m sorry to hear that. A while back when you mentioned "founder", I searched it and a web site said something like "keep off their feet for a month? (it was quite a while they had to be kept off their feet). I didn’t post it, coz I don’t know "horse conditions", but at the time, I remembered another horse condition where they do Pool therapy …keep the horse in a pool held up by supports/slings to the body, so it’s feet don’t touch the ground (and keep their weight off the feet). I forget the websites, but here are two that I was looking at http://www.recoveryeq.com/laminitis_founder.htm (not for the product, but the other info) http://www.naturalhorsetrim.com/ The other was hypothyroid and weight, on another newsgroup was an announcement for peoole with thyroid cancer a new TSH injection to get the thyroid TSH level working faster. I think it’s specific to humans. but wondered if such can be done for a horse? (without speeding up the TSH too fast and being dangerous)??? FWIW (for what it’s worth) ( ( ( Candi and Jess ) ) ) J Candi Bowen wrote: My horse isn’t doing well. She’s having xrays of her feet on Fri to see how much rotation of the coffin bone there is. There’s obviously some because it’s causing a large bruise on her sole, meaning it (the bone) could be ready to pop out the bottom of her foot. This is a bad thing.

Response:

Question:

Alan, Saw your post and thought I’d write to ask your advice re. TRT since you have had some experience. I have had poor erections for 2 years now. I can still achieve a satisfactory erection but it requires both visual and manual stimulation for about 5-10 mins. Since splitting with my wife about 2 yrs ago I havent attempted to gain an erection whilst with a woman so I dont really know if it would be easier or more difficult. I am also experiencing persistent medium depression, lack of energy and mental alertness. Suffice to say that I no longer feel myself and my vitality has diminished to an unacceptable level. Uprima and Viagra have not had a significant effect Blood tests proved negative re diabetes, PSA. Basically there seems to be no serious health problem. Blood hormone test results Testosterone 14mmol/ml (expected range 11-36) Free Androgen Index 100 (36-156) SHBG (???) 14 (6-45) Thyroid (TSH) 1.94 (0.3-4.5) Prolactin 214 (less than 350) Oestrodiol 78pmol/l (less than 300) Cortisol 284 nmol/l (no range given). Consultation with endocrinologist – although my testosterone was low he felt that it was not a problem and basically told me to get used to the symptoms I am experiencing. This  is something that I find difficult to accept given that I am only 38.I told him i was on 40mg Restandol per day and he suggested I should try to come off it in time. He did not offer an alternative The restandol has not resulted in a significant increase in blood testosterone although when I stop of forget to take it I feel particularly low the following day I have sourced some Androstolone gel which I am considering using. However I do have concerns re. long term shut down of endogenous T production and sterility. Consequently I would like to ask your opinion of the following (I realise that you may not be in a position to answer all of these!) ; Is my total Testosterone is too low for someone of my age? Did you also experience the symptoms of low energy, libido, poor mental function? When on TRT has your natural production of Testosterone decreased? Do you know of threats of sterility from TRT? Id be grateful for any advice you can offer as it seems my GP and endo have basically given up on me. Regards, G – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve read a lot about the possible health benefits of TRT, and how some of the traditional scare stories (causes heart disease & prostate cancer) are now turning out not to be true and that in fact T may well turn out to be protective of the heart & circulatory systems, as well as fighting osteoporosis, Alzheimer’s disease, diabetes & all kinds of other good stuff. However…I’ve also read in many places how much longer the lifespan of eunuchs is compared to the general population, generally put down to the vast reduction in T levels caused by removal of the testicles. Is this actually true, or is it just an old wives’ tale from mediaeval times, when eunuchs no doubt led very sheltered, pampered lives & weren’t running off to battle every other day? Even if it IS true, can one extrapolate & say that higher than average T levels shorten the lifespan?  Or that hypogonadal men’s mortality rate will be lower than the average?  According to a documentary programme shown in the UK a few weeks ago, you can – they claimed that TRT will "almost certainly shorten your lifespan".  Quite a controversial claim, and not really backed up by much evidence.  Left me a little concerned though, since I’ve been taking TRT for almost 4 years, am now aged 33 and will probably have to take it for the rest of my life. Opinions please? Thanks.

Response:

Hi, I’m one of the few that have been receiving TRT for over 10 years in the form of hormone pellets installed under the skin every 4 months. I’m now 71 and feel very good about life which is one of the gifts associated with TRT. I’m quite healthy and still have fairly good mental faculties even though my spelling is still no good. Lost my hair when very young and started ED problems in my late 50’s which caused me to start looking for reasons. Started out with TRT and for the first few weeks I was back to great performance. Then the T level stabilized and my ED was just as before. Went to Boston Univ. to see Dr. Goldstein who prescribed trimix which has worked very well since then. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve read a lot about the possible health benefits of TRT, and how some of the traditional scare stories (causes heart disease & prostate cancer) are now turning out not to be true and that in fact T may well turn out to be protective of the heart & circulatory systems, as well as fighting osteoporosis, Alzheimer’s disease, diabetes & all kinds of other good stuff. However…I’ve also read in many places how much longer the lifespan of eunuchs is compared to the general population, generally put down to the vast reduction in T levels caused by removal of the testicles. Is this actually true, or is it just an old wives’ tale from mediaeval times, when eunuchs no doubt led very sheltered, pampered lives & weren’t running off to battle every other day? Even if it IS true, can one extrapolate & say that higher than average T levels shorten the lifespan?  Or that hypogonadal men’s mortality rate will be lower than the average?  According to a documentary programme shown in the UK a few weeks ago, you can – they claimed that TRT will "almost certainly shorten your lifespan".  Quite a controversial claim, and not really backed up by much evidence.  Left me a little concerned though, since I’ve been taking TRT for almost 4 years, am now aged 33 and will probably have to take it for the rest of my life. Opinions please? Thanks.

Response:

 (Were you aware that there are serious studies linking vasectomy to prostate cancer at least one of which suggests that vasectomy is CAUSATIVE of prostate cancer?)

These studies have been contradicted by more recent and better research.   It seems the early observations of increased prostate cancer among vasecotmised men were due to detection bias in various studies–prostate cancer was being *diagnosed* earlier and more frequently in vasectomised men because they had better access to doctors.  This effect was compounded by the fact that for years the American Urological Association recommended vasectomised men be tested for prostate cancer earlier and more frequently.  Since the new research, the AUA has discontinued this recommendation.  (See Below) BTW, when doctors did think empirical research suggested an association between vasectomy and prostate cancer, they weren’t sure of a mechanism.  One theory was that vasectomised men might have higher T levels than the non-vasectomised later into life.   A study in China did find higher T levels in vasectomised men, when age-matched with non-vasectomised men, as long as 20 years after vasectomy.  Of course, others have argued that it is possible men who choose vasectomy have higher T levels to begin with (the hornier you are, the more likely to seek a vasectomy).  Curiously, the suspicion of an association between vasectomy and high T is an old one.  The procedure was first used in the late 19th century by Steinach, who argued blocking the flow of sperm from the testicles would stimulate T production, restoring "vigor" (intellectual and otherwise) to older men:  Freud was one of the first "beneficiaries" of this practice. trifold http://www.vasectomy-information.com ***** Vasectomy and Prostate Cancer (AUA 11/02) (http://www.auanet.org/aboutaua/policy_statements/services.cfm#vasectomy)  The American Urological Association Inc. (AUA) is aware of the recent controversy surrounding prostate cancer risk following vasectomy. However, the association feels that vasectomy is a safe method of surgical sterilization and men need not worry about an increased risk of developing prostate cancer after the procedure. Clinicians should be confident in advising their patients about the benefits and risks of surgical sterilization. Two papers in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) in 1993 raised the possibility that vasectomy resulted in the increased incidence of prostate cancer. The AUA immediately formed a committee composed of Drs. John Grayhack, Patrick Walsh, Donald  Coffey, Bert Peterson and Stuart Howards. This committee reviewed all the available data,  and then formulated a position paper for the AUA, which stated that evidence was not convincing and that it was unlikely there was a relationship between vasectomy and prostate cancer. This opinion was based on the fact that the relationship was extremely weak although statistically significant in that there was no biologic rationale. The committee did recommend that clinicians advise patients who requested a vasectomy of the fact that some investigators felt there might be a relationship between vasectomy and prostate cancer. Soon after the AUA position paper, the National Institutes of Health (NIH) convened a conference involving Dr. Howards and many epidemiologists. The consensus statement of the NIH conference was that there was no convincing evidence of a relationship been vasectomy and prostate cancer and the NIH did not even recommend informing patients of the previous publications. Since that time a large number of papers have been published which include more patients at risk for many more patient years than did the first two manuscripts. None of these papers have documented a relationship between vasectomy and prostate cancer. In 1998 Bernal-Delgado and Associates reviewed 14 existing papers on this subject including five cohort and nine case-control studies. Relative risk shown in these studies ranged between .44 and 6.75. The overall relative risk was not significant. They concluded that there was no casual relationship between vasectomy and prostate cancer. They also concluded that individuals who had undergone vasectomy are not at higher risk for developing prostate cancer. These authors did a population-based control study of 923 new cases of prostate cancer from the New Zealand Cancer Registry. They found there was no association between prostate cancer and vasectomy. A June 2002 JAMA article provided reassuring data that indicated no correlation between prostate cancer risk and vasectomy. More than 1,000 men with prostate cancer and 1,800 men without the disease were contacted in a large retrospective study in New Zealand. Men were asked about various health data, including a history of having undergone a vasectomy; 9 percent of cancer patients and 10 percent of controls had undergone the procedure. The relative risk of prostate cancer was not increased in patients who had undergone vasectomy in the past. In summary, papers published over the last nine years have conclusively documented that there is no increased risk of prostate cancer after vasectomy. Therefore, it is no longer imperative to inform patients of a possible risk and it is very safe to use vasectomy as a form of male sterilization. 1.Fertility and Sterility, 1998: Vol. 70, Page 191-200) 2.Cox et al, JAMA 287, page 3110-3115, 2002 Board of Directors, November 2002

Response:

(Were you aware that there are serious studies linking vasectomy to prostate cancer at least one of which suggests that vasectomy is CAUSATIVE of prostate cancer?) These studies have been contradicted by more recent and better research.   It seems the early observations of increased prostate cancer among vasecotmised men were due to detection bias in various studies–prostate cancer was being *diagnosed* earlier and more frequently in vasectomised men because they had better access to doctors.

I suppose it depends on which study but the following was a prospective study and presumably (maybe the entire study confirms–I don’t know) the two groups were both tested equally for prostate cancer. All the occupations listed seem to be likely to have equal access to medical care. ******quote follows JAMA 1993 Feb 17;269(7):873-7 Giovannucci E; Ascherio A; Rimm EB; Colditz GA; Stampfer MJ; Willett WC (93148428 NLM) OBJECTIVE–To examine prospectively the relationship between vasectomy and prostate cancer. DESIGN–Cohort study. SETTING–Health professionals (dentists, veterinarians, osteopaths, optometrists, pharmacists, and podiastrists) in the United States. PARTICIPANTS–There were 10,055 male members of the Health Professionals Follow-up Study, aged 40 to 75 years, who had had a vasectomy, and 37,800 members who had not had a vasectomy at the time of study entry in 1986. These participants had provided detailed information on various life-style variables including diet. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE–Diagnosis of prostate cancer. RESULTS–Between 1986 and 1990, 300 new cases of prostate cancer were diagnosed in participants who were initially free of diagnosed cancer. Vasectomy was associated with an elevated risk of prostate cancer (age-adjusted relative risk, 1.66; 95% confidence interval, 1.25 to 2.21; P = .0004). This elevated risk persisted after excluding 21 stage A1 cases (age-adjusted relative risk, 1.56; 95% confidence interval, 1.15 to 2.11; P = .004). Among men who had their vasectomy at least 22 years in the past (before 1965), the risk of prostate cancer was even higher (relative risk, 1.85; 95% confidence interval, 1.26 to 2.72; P = ..002). This elevated risk among men with vasectomy did not appear to be caused by detection bias and persisted when we controlled for diet, level of physical activity, smoking, alcohol consumption, educational level, body mass index, and geographical area of residence. CONCLUSIONS–These results support evidence from other epidemiologic studies that vasectomy increases risk of prostate cancer. The consistency of results among various epidemiologic studies, the increase of risk over time following vasectomy, the apparent lack of confounding or bias, and the existence of physiological changes in the prostate following vasectomy suggest that the association may be causal. Keywords: Prostate; Cancer; Risk factors; Vasectomy; Male ******quote ends  This effect was compounded by the fact that for years the American Urological Association recommended vasectomised men be tested for prostate cancer earlier and more frequently.  Since the new research, the AUA has discontinued this recommendation.  (See Below)

I’m not persuaded by what I see as largely self-interested studies but the side I take in this issue is that true or not why take the risk? BTW, when doctors did think empirical research suggested an association between vasectomy and prostate cancer, they weren’t sure of a mechanism.  One theory was that vasectomised men might have higher T levels than the non-vasectomised later into life.   A study in China did find higher T levels in vasectomised men, when age-matched with non-vasectomised men, as long as 20 years after vasectomy.  Of course, others have argued that it is possible men who choose vasectomy have higher T levels to begin with (the hornier you are, the more likely to seek a vasectomy).  Curiously, the suspicion of an association between vasectomy and high T is an old one.  The procedure was first used in the late 19th century by Steinach, who argued blocking the flow of sperm from the testicles would stimulate T production, restoring "vigor" (intellectual and otherwise) to older men:  Freud was one of the first "beneficiaries" of this practice.

Now of course what we need is a prospective study that shows an increase of T in the same persons after vasectomy. I fail to see how preventing the outflow of sperm could possibly have any effect on stimulation of T production. The sperm somehow cause the T-producing cells to work harder? And as we all know raising T levels does not increase "vigor" in the long term unless the person was hypogonadal to begin with.

Response:

Are there any eunuchs around today? I would think quality of life is more important than quantity. I’d take 20 more years of having a decent libido and being able to screw than 40 years of being a sexless android. So how’s the T working out for you? Are you happy with it? Any side effects?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve read a lot about the possible health benefits of TRT, and how some of the traditional scare stories (causes heart disease & prostate cancer) are now turning out not to be true and that in fact T may well turn out to be protective of the heart & circulatory systems, as well as fighting osteoporosis, Alzheimer’s disease, diabetes & all kinds of other good stuff. However…I’ve also read in many places how much longer the lifespan of eunuchs is compared to the general population, generally put down to the vast reduction in T levels caused by removal of the testicles. Is this actually true, or is it just an old wives’ tale from mediaeval times, when eunuchs no doubt led very sheltered, pampered lives & weren’t running off to battle every other day? Even if it IS true, can one extrapolate & say that higher than average T levels shorten the lifespan?  Or that hypogonadal men’s mortality rate will be lower than the average?  According to a documentary programme shown in the UK a few weeks ago, you can – they claimed that TRT will "almost certainly shorten your lifespan".  Quite a controversial claim, and not really backed up by much evidence.  Left me a little concerned though, since I’ve been taking TRT for almost 4 years, am now aged 33 and will probably have to take it for the rest of my life. Opinions please? Thanks.

Response:

I’ve read a lot about the possible health benefits of TRT, and how some of the traditional scare stories (causes heart disease & prostate cancer) are now turning out not to be true and that in fact T may well turn out to be protective of the heart & circulatory systems, as well as fighting osteoporosis, Alzheimer’s disease, diabetes & all kinds of other good stuff. However…I’ve also read in many places how much longer the lifespan of eunuchs is compared to the general population, generally put down to the vast reduction in T levels caused by removal of the testicles. Is this actually true, or is it just an old wives’ tale from mediaeval times, when eunuchs no doubt led very sheltered, pampered lives & weren’t running off to battle every other day? Even if it IS true, can one extrapolate & say that higher than average T levels shorten the lifespan?  Or that hypogonadal men’s mortality rate will be lower than the average?  According to a documentary programme shown in the UK a few weeks ago, you can – they claimed that TRT will "almost certainly shorten your lifespan".  Quite a controversial claim, and not really backed up by much evidence.  Left me a little concerned though, since I’ve been taking TRT for almost 4 years, am now aged 33 and will probably have to take it for the rest of my life. Opinions please? Thanks.

Response:

I’ve read a lot about the possible health benefits of TRT, and how some of the traditional scare stories (causes heart disease & prostate cancer) are now turning out not to be true and that in fact T may well turn out to be protective of the heart & circulatory systems, as well as fighting osteoporosis, Alzheimer’s disease, diabetes & all kinds of other good stuff. However…I’ve also read in many places how much longer the lifespan of eunuchs is compared to the general population, generally put down to the vast reduction in T levels caused by removal of the testicles.

Hmmm, what places? www.eunuch.org perhaps? Or www.bmezine.com (body modification through surgery)? Lots of these people have a vested (not necessarily monetary)  interest in making wild claims but consider just how many eunuchs they have to use as a comparison. Maybe there’s a few guys who bizarrely want to lop of their nuts but the rest are likely to be people who have or have had something wrong with them (like testicular cancer) or they’re sex offenders, or they lost them in accidents. There’s no "normal" group out there so to compare castrated males to the population as a whole is unlikely to yield useful information. In any event I’ve never even heard of (try Medline) any serious studies showing the health advantages of castration. The idea probably arises because of the alleged connection between T and prostate cancer but even this is hazy and it could easily be attributed incorrectly. (Were you aware that there are serious studies linking vasectomy to prostate cancer at least one of which suggests that vasectomy is CAUSATIVE of prostate cancer?) It is intuitively un-obvious that a natural substance (T) occurring in the body in normal quantities is causative of disease. Disease usually occurs because something upsets the homeostatic balance–too high blood pressure, too much cholesterol, etc–so logically it would be too high or too low T that would cause the problem.   Is this actually true, or is it just an old wives’ tale from mediaeval times, when eunuchs no doubt led very sheltered, pampered lives & weren’t running off to battle every other day?

And we really have good statistics from that period concerning the lifespan of eunuchs vs. intact males, don’t we? Even if it were true then it has nothing to do with castration but rather the pampered lifestyle. Intact males would perform just as well under the same circumstances. Even if it IS true, can one extrapolate & say that higher than average T levels shorten the lifespan?  Or that hypogonadal men’s mortality rate will be lower than the average?  According to a documentary programme shown in the UK a few weeks ago, you can – they claimed that TRT will "almost certainly shorten your lifespan".  Quite a controversial claim, and not really backed up by much evidence.

Why believe something that is intuitively un-obvious and has no evidence to back it up? I bought a garden hose the other day that was "advertised on TV". A real piece of junk which I returned two days later. Don’t believe everything you see on TV (or in a NG for that matter <g).

Response:

Question:

Thanks Marilyn ! Di —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Diana, Those numbers aren’t bad and there is one SUPER number – your weight loss! You deserve a happy dance!!! — Marilyn Hi all, trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs are awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I believe. Here are my results for those interested. Thyroid…TSH…..6.39   normal 0.4-6.1 On the U/A I was positive for Nitrites and Leukocyte not sure what either one is. Weight loss in last Month and Half has been 40 pounds and that was the only thing they were pleased about other than for this same time limit my Glucose has been within very normal limits. But I anticipate since I have only been trying for a short time my next labs will be better……I sure do hope so. I want to give thanks to Loretta and Reisa for being such good friends and cheering me on in email three times a week. I appreciate you two immensely. Thanks! ! ! ! Diana who will continue trying because boy this weight loss has been good for my self esteem —

Response:

Hi Dot, I sure will be praying for you to have good numbers. If you ever need to talk I am just an email away. Di —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Definitely the next time will be it, Di!  You keep pressing towards the mark for better control!  Don’t give up! You have made wonderful progress and that weight loss is terrific! I’ll post my A1c on either Friday or Saturday.  Somehow I have the feeling it may not be as good as it was. We have had more stress going on for several months and I have slipped a few times in how I have been eating.  We’ll see! Best, Dot Type 2  Diag 8/2001 Thanks Dot, I sure and pressing for the mark on getting in much better control. I was a bit disappointed but understood. I was hoping for at least in the 6-7 range. But…. next time will be it. Di — <Your numbers "will" be even "better" next time, Di! Congrats on your weight loss! Keep up the good work! Best, Dot Type 2  Diag 8/2001 LOL you are too cute. I love ya. Actually I went from 7.1 to 7.6 in the last six months. Not drastic but not good. I will do better cause I looked at my meter and it gives a Thirty Day AVERAGE and here it is for those times: Brk…    145 MMO…121 LUN…..112 MAf……114 DIN……114 EVE……100 BED……114 NGT……125 Di — aw hells bells… dunt go getting pissy on yourself over your labs just like the weight didn’t get there overnight, your labs aren’t going to drop overnight either. dont worry you’ll get there with next to perfect labs by the time we are done with you.. LOL how much have they changed in 6months? — RK [T1 - dx 5/00]-[Lantus/Novolog]-[Experiments in progress...] http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.faqs.org/faqs/diabetes/faq http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/files/zl-mirc.exe (chatroom software/verified clean w/Norton) Current Troll List: See ASD site for current list and how to killfile

Response:

Di, I can only marvel at some of the statements that some people in the medical field can make.  Consider the source and then go prove this one wrong!  Or, find another doctor if you possibly can. Best, Dot Type 2  Diag 8/2001 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can move to Britain. that way I can have approval from the docs. The nurse practitioner today was not a happy camper. What really gets me is she comes into the room and is so chipper and happy to see Dale but then grunts when talking to me LOL. But…….She said something to me one time that she never should have said and that is "Diana you will not ever be in tight control" Well looks like I am just gonna have to prove her wrong . Thanks Ratty, for everything and I promise I will not give up and I will move forward. Di — Diana said…. Hi all, trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs are  awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I believe. Here are my results for those interested. Depends when and where and who, really. Over here in Britain 7.6 would be regarded as not that bad. It does indicate some control is being successfully practiced. Ideal numbers here would be between 6 and 7. Add into the equation things such as lab techniques and that can add as much as a point either way. Don’t forget it’s an average. People who post here that their A1C is below 5 wouldn’t get any cheers from British doctors. That would indicate that they are running an average which is heading for borderline hypo most of the time. I can see the logic there too. That point or two over your ideal isn’t Everest. It’s a little bump. Treat it as such and keep on trying. Ratty — "This is not a battle between the United States of America and terrorism, but between the free and democratic world and terrorism. We therefore, here in Britain, stand shoulder to shoulder with our American friends in this hour of tragedy. And we, like them, will not rest until this evil is driven from our world." Tony Blair, 9/11/2001

Response:

Definitely the next time will be it, Di!  You keep pressing towards the mark for better control!  Don’t give up! You have made wonderful progress and that weight loss is terrific! I’ll post my A1c on either Friday or Saturday.  Somehow I have the feeling it may not be as good as it was. We have had more stress going on for several months and I have slipped a few times in how I have been eating.  We’ll see! Best, Dot Type 2  Diag 8/2001 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Dot, I sure and pressing for the mark on getting in much better control. I was a bit disappointed but understood. I was hoping for at least in the 6-7 range. But…. next time will be it. Di — <Your numbers "will" be even "better" next time, Di! Congrats on your weight loss! Keep up the good work! Best, Dot Type 2  Diag 8/2001 LOL you are too cute. I love ya. Actually I went from 7.1 to 7.6 in the last six months. Not drastic but not good. I will do better cause I looked at my meter and it gives a Thirty Day AVERAGE and here it is for those times: Brk…    145 MMO…121 LUN…..112 MAf……114 DIN……114 EVE……100 BED……114 NGT……125 Di — aw hells bells… dunt go getting pissy on yourself over your labs just like the weight didn’t get there overnight, your labs aren’t going to drop overnight either. dont worry you’ll get there with next to perfect labs by the time we are done with you.. LOL how much have they changed in 6months? — RK [T1 - dx 5/00]-[Lantus/Novolog]-[Experiments in progress...] http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.faqs.org/faqs/diabetes/faq http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/files/zl-mirc.exe (chatroom software/verified clean w/Norton) Current Troll List: See ASD site for current list and how to killfile

Response:

Thanks Jeanne ! I sure will continue trying Diana —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Diana who will continue trying because boy this weight loss has been good for my self esteem Diana absolutely The A1C is supposed to chart over 3 months. You are not neccesarily going to get the eating right, right off the bat. Sometimes it takes alot of experimentation. So here is hopes for much better numbers next time. Jeanne Type 2  Diagnosed 05/28/02 189/175.5/120

Response:

Diana, Those numbers aren’t bad and there is one SUPER number – your weight loss! You deserve a happy dance!!! — Marilyn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs are awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I believe. Here are my results for those interested. Thyroid…TSH…..6.39   normal 0.4-6.1 On the U/A I was positive for Nitrites and Leukocyte not sure what either one is. Weight loss in last Month and Half has been 40 pounds and that was the only thing they were pleased about other than for this same time limit my Glucose has been within very normal limits. But I anticipate since I have only been trying for a short time my next labs will be better……I sure do hope so. I want to give thanks to Loretta and Reisa for being such good friends and cheering me on in email three times a week. I appreciate you two immensely. Thanks! ! ! ! Diana who will continue trying because boy this weight loss has been good for my self esteem —

Response:

Hi, No I don’t take anything to lose weight as I have done all that in the past and nothing like that works. I am just watching calories and carbs. As for being dangerous I don’t think so. About eight years ago I lost almost 100 lbs in 4-5 months just because I was so happy my metabolism was soaring. That was before diabetes too. I also had a job that I walked alot on and also walked 7 miles a day 7 days a week. I am now disabled and can’t walk but maybe 15 feet in-between sitting to rest so I have to really watch my intake. Thanks for writing, I will be ok, I won’t hurt myself with this. If anything I will feel much much better Diana —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs are awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I believe. Here are my results for those interested. Thyroid…TSH…..6.39   normal 0.4-6.1 On the U/A I was positive for Nitrites and Leukocyte not sure what either one is. Weight loss in last Month and Half has been 40 pounds and that was the only thing they were pleased about other than for this same time limit my Glucose has been within very normal limits. 40 pounds in 6 weeks. 40/6 = 6.67 pounds/week Are you pushing ketones? How did you lose so much weight so quickly?  Were you taking pills? Is such weight loss dangerous to her health?

Response:

Hi ya Jan ! I am trying to do similar to the Jude diet I hate to cook so during the day I lack. A typical day is Breakfast..I have two slices rye bread with pressed beef or ham and that is it plus of course my Diet Coke. LOL Then about every 2-3 hours I have maybe a few stalks of celery with two tablespoons of veggie dip or peanut butter on them I also have something like a handful of mixed nuts Then for lunch I may have a single serving can of veggie/beef soup Supper I have a baked boneless chicken breast, a veggie such as green beans and half of Dale’s baked potato or maybe not even the potato. Sometimes I have just steamed veggies for supper. Then before bed maybe more celery or nuts. That is about it. I believe it is about 60 carbs per day and about 800 – 1000 cal per day. I have always lost weight fast because when I get started and start feeling better emotionally about things my metabolism soars. Right now under a tremendous amount of stress so my morning bg is a bit higher than it has been but still within normal limits. Thanks for always being there for me. You are super. Di —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – / Hi all, been trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs are awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I believe. Here are my results for those interested. I can’t understand your chol numbers but, are you eating the Jude diet right now or something else? Wanna share what your weight loss diet is so we can have a little pick?  If it’s any consolation, there have been times when my lipids numbers are much higher when I am in serious diet mode.  Keep up the good work, I am sure things will start to pan

Response:

I can move to Britain. that way I can have approval from the docs. The nurse practitioner today was not a happy camper. What really gets me is she comes into the room and is so chipper and happy to see Dale but then grunts when talking to me LOL. But…….She said something to me one time that she never should have said and that is "Diana you will not ever be in tight control" Well looks like I am just gonna have to prove her wrong . Thanks Ratty, for everything and I promise I will not give up and I will move forward. Di —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Diana said…. Hi all, trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs are awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I believe. Here are my results for those interested. Depends when and where and who, really. Over here in Britain 7.6 would be regarded as not that bad. It does indicate some control is being successfully practiced. Ideal numbers here would be between 6 and 7. Add into the equation things such as lab techniques and that can add as much as a point either way. Don’t forget it’s an average. People who post here that their A1C is below 5 wouldn’t get any cheers from British doctors. That would indicate that they are running an average which is heading for borderline hypo most of the time. I can see the logic there too. That point or two over your ideal isn’t Everest. It’s a little bump. Treat it as such and keep on trying. Ratty — "This is not a battle between the United States of America and terrorism, but between the free and democratic world and terrorism.  We therefore, here in Britain, stand shoulder to shoulder with our American friends in this hour of tragedy.  And we, like them, will not rest until this evil is driven from our world." Tony Blair, 9/11/2001

Response:

Thanks sweetie, I sure am trying to get there. I will soon I hope. Di —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs are awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I believe. Here are my results for those interested. Thyroid…TSH…..6.39   normal 0.4-6.1 On the U/A I was positive for Nitrites and Leukocyte not sure what either one is. Weight loss in last Month and Half has been 40 pounds and that was the only thing they were pleased about other than for this same time limit my Glucose has been within very normal limits. But I anticipate since I have only been trying for a short time my next labs will be better……I sure do hope so. I want to give thanks to Loretta and Reisa for being such good friends and cheering me on in email three times a week. I appreciate you two immensely. Thanks! ! ! ! Diana who will continue trying because boy this weight loss has been good for my self esteem — Those numbers arn’t that bad Miss Di..  You are moving into the 5% club soon — Ronnie Ruff skippin’ stones, we know the price now. Any sin will do how much further, if you can spin? how much further, if you are smooth?     -indigo girls-

Response:

Thanks Dot, I sure and pressing for the mark on getting in much better control. I was a bit disappointed but understood. I was hoping for at least in the 6-7 range. But…. next time will be it. Di —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Your numbers "will" be even "better" next time, Di! Congrats on your weight loss! Keep up the good work! Best, Dot Type 2  Diag 8/2001 LOL you are too cute. I love ya. Actually I went from 7.1 to 7.6 in the last six months. Not drastic but not good. I will do better cause I looked at my meter and it gives a Thirty Day AVERAGE and here it is for those times: Brk…    145 MMO…121 LUN…..112 MAf……114 DIN……114 EVE……100 BED……114 NGT……125 Di — aw hells bells… dunt go getting pissy on yourself over your labs just like the weight didn’t get there overnight, your labs aren’t going to drop overnight either. dont worry you’ll get there with next to perfect labs by the time we are done with you.. LOL how much have they changed in 6months? — RK [T1 - dx 5/00]-[Lantus/Novolog]-[Experiments in progress...] http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.faqs.org/faqs/diabetes/faq http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/files/zl-mirc.exe (chatroom software/verified clean w/Norton) Current Troll List: See ASD site for current list and how to killfile  :Hi all, been  trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs are awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I believe. : Here are my results for those interested. : Thyroid…TSH…..6.39   normal 0.4-6.1 : On the U/A I was positive for Nitrites and Leukocyte not sure what either one is. : Weight loss in last Month and Half has been 40 pounds and that was  the only thing they were pleased about other than for this same time limit my Glucose has been within very normal limits. : But I anticipate since I have only been trying for a short time my next labs will be better……I sure do hope so. : I want to give thanks to Loretta and Reisa for being such good friends and cheering me on in email three times a week. I appreciate you two immensely. Thanks! ! ! ! : Diana who will continue trying because boy this weight loss has been good for my self esteem —

Response:

writes: Diana who will continue trying because boy this weight loss has been good for my self esteem

Diana absolutely The A1C is supposed to chart over 3 months. You are not neccesarily going to get the eating right, right off the bat. Sometimes it takes alot of experimentation. So here is hopes for much better numbers next time. Jeanne Type 2  Diagnosed 05/28/02 189/175.5/120

Response:

Louise, Thanks lots ! !  I sure do hope those good numbers come soon. Di —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Diana, congratulations on your weight loss.  This is something you took directly control of and I’d say you should be proud of yourself!  Don’t worry, the numbers will follow. — Best wishes Louise Hi all, trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs are awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I believe. Here are my results for those interested. Thyroid…TSH…..6.39   normal 0.4-6.1 On the U/A I was positive for Nitrites and Leukocyte not sure what either one is. Weight loss in last Month and Half has been 40 pounds and that was the only thing they were pleased about other than for this same time limit my Glucose has been within very normal limits. But I anticipate since I have only been trying for a short time my next labs will be better……I sure do hope so. I want to give thanks to Loretta and Reisa for being such good friends and cheering me on in email three times a week. I appreciate you two immensely. Thanks! ! ! ! Diana who will continue trying because boy this weight loss has been good for my self esteem —

Response:

Diana said…. Hi all, trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs are awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I believe. Here are my results for those interested.

Depends when and where and who, really. Over here in Britain 7.6 would be regarded as not that bad. It does indicate some control is being successfully practiced. Ideal numbers here would be between 6 and 7. Add into the equation things such as lab techniques and that can add as much as a point either way. Don’t forget it’s an average. People who post here that their A1C is below 5 wouldn’t get any cheers from British doctors. That would indicate that they are running an average which is heading for borderline hypo most of the time. I can see the logic there too. That point or two over your ideal isn’t Everest. It’s a little bump. Treat it as such and keep on trying. Ratty — "This is not a battle between the United States of America and terrorism, but between the free and democratic world and terrorism.  We therefore, here in Britain, stand shoulder to shoulder with our American friends in this hour of tragedy.  And we, like them, will not rest until this evil is driven from our world." Tony Blair, 9/11/2001

Response:

/

Hi all, been trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs are awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I believe. Here are my results for those interested.

I can’t understand your chol numbers but, are you eating the Jude diet right now or something else? Wanna share what your weight loss diet is so we can have a little pick?  If it’s any consolation, there have been times when my lipids numbers are much higher when I am in serious diet mode.  Keep up the good work, I am sure things will start to pan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs are awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I believe. Here are my results for those interested. Thyroid…TSH…..6.39   normal 0.4-6.1 On the U/A I was positive for Nitrites and Leukocyte not sure what either one is. Weight loss in last Month and Half has been 40 pounds and that was the only thing they were pleased about other than for this same time limit my Glucose has been within very normal limits. But I anticipate since I have only been trying for a short time my next labs will be better……I sure do hope so. I want to give thanks to Loretta and Reisa for being such good friends and cheering me on in email three times a week. I appreciate you two immensely. Thanks! ! ! ! Diana who will continue trying because boy this weight loss has been good for my self esteem —

Those numbers arn’t that bad Miss Di..  You are moving into the 5% club soon — Ronnie Ruff skippin’ stones, we know the price now. Any sin will do how much further, if you can spin? how much further, if you are smooth?     -indigo girls-        

Response:

Diana, congratulations on your weight loss.  This is something you took directly control of and I’d say you should be proud of yourself!  Don’t worry, the numbers will follow. — Best wishes Louise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs are awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I believe. Here are my results for those interested. Thyroid…TSH…..6.39   normal 0.4-6.1 On the U/A I was positive for Nitrites and Leukocyte not sure what either one is. Weight loss in last Month and Half has been 40 pounds and that was the only thing they were pleased about other than for this same time limit my Glucose has been within very normal limits. But I anticipate since I have only been trying for a short time my next labs will be better……I sure do hope so. I want to give thanks to Loretta and Reisa for being such good friends and cheering me on in email three times a week. I appreciate you two immensely. Thanks! ! ! ! Diana who will continue trying because boy this weight loss has been good for my self esteem —

Response:

Your numbers "will" be even "better" next time, Di! Congrats on your weight loss! Keep up the good work! Best, Dot Type 2  Diag 8/2001 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – LOL you are too cute. I love ya. Actually I went from 7.1 to 7.6 in the last six months. Not drastic but not good. I will do better cause I looked at my meter and it gives a Thirty Day AVERAGE and here it is for those times: Brk…    145 MMO…121 LUN…..112 MAf……114 DIN……114 EVE……100 BED……114 NGT……125 Di — aw hells bells… dunt go getting pissy on yourself over your labs just like the weight didn’t get there overnight, your labs aren’t going to drop overnight either. dont worry you’ll get there with next to perfect labs by the time we are done with you.. LOL how much have they changed in 6months? — RK [T1 - dx 5/00]-[Lantus/Novolog]-[Experiments in progress...] http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.faqs.org/faqs/diabetes/faq http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/files/zl-mirc.exe (chatroom software/verified clean w/Norton) Current Troll List: See ASD site for current list and how to killfile  :Hi all, been  trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs are awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I believe. : Here are my results for those interested. : Thyroid…TSH…..6.39   normal 0.4-6.1 : On the U/A I was positive for Nitrites and Leukocyte not sure what either one is. : Weight loss in last Month and Half has been 40 pounds and that was  the only thing they were pleased about other than for this same time limit my Glucose has been within very normal limits. : But I anticipate since I have only been trying for a short time my next labs will be better……I sure do hope so. : I want to give thanks to Loretta and Reisa for being such good friends and cheering me on in email three times a week. I appreciate you two immensely. Thanks! ! ! ! : Diana who will continue trying because boy this weight loss has been good for my self esteem —

Response:

Then you’ll do better next time. You’ve had an awful lot of stress lately and it’s easy to forget to take care of ourselves when all that stuff is going on. Hang in there Di. Cheri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs are awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I believe. Here are my results for those interested. Thyroid…TSH…..6.39   normal 0.4-6.1 On the U/A I was positive for Nitrites and Leukocyte not sure what either one is. Weight loss in last Month and Half has been 40 pounds and that was the only thing they were pleased about other than for this same time limit my Glucose has been within very normal limits. But I anticipate since I have only been trying for a short time my next labs will be better……I sure do hope so. I want to give thanks to Loretta and Reisa for being such good friends and cheering me on in email three times a week. I appreciate you two immensely. Thanks! ! ! ! Diana who will continue trying because boy this weight loss has been good for my self esteem —

Response:

whooohooo! — RK [T1 - dx 5/00]-[Lantus/Novolog]-[Experiments in progress...] http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.faqs.org/faqs/diabetes/faq http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/files/zl-mirc.exe (chatroom software/verified clean w/Norton) Current Troll List: See ASD site for current list and how to killfile

: Ohhhhhhh my own Mickey Ears???? Cool ! You are on LOL. : : Di : : — : :

: yeah, and remember all the crap you had been eating also : along with no exercise for the previous 6months.. so now : you got all that going.. sure your a1c will be higher.. but : now your out moving more, and eating better.. watch : I’ll betcha a set of mickey’s ears next a1c will be 6.5% : or less … along with better lipids overall : : — : RK : [T1 - dx 5/00]-[Lantus/Novolog]-[Experiments in progress...] : http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org : http://www.faqs.org/faqs/diabetes/faq : http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/files/zl-mirc.exe (chatroom : software/verified clean w/Norton) : Current Troll List: See ASD site for current list and how to : killfile : : LOL you are too cute. I love ya. Actually I went from 7.1 to 7.6 : in the last : : six months. Not drastic but not good. I will do better cause I : looked at my : : meter and it gives a Thirty Day AVERAGE and here it is for those : times: : : Brk…    145 : : MMO…121 : : LUN…..112 : : MAf……114 : : DIN……114 : : EVE……100 : : BED……114 : : NGT……125 : : : : : : Di : : : : — : : : : : : aw hells bells… dunt go getting pissy on yourself over your : labs : : just like the weight didn’t get there overnight, your labs : aren’t : : going to drop overnight either. : : : : dont worry you’ll get there with next to perfect labs by the : time : : we are done with you.. LOL : : : : how much have they changed in 6months? : : : : — : : RK : : [T1 - dx 5/00]-[Lantus/Novolog]-[Experiments in progress...] : : http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org : : http://www.faqs.org/faqs/diabetes/faq : : http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/files/zl-mirc.exe (chatroom : : software/verified clean w/Norton) : : Current Troll List: See ASD site for current list and how to : : killfile : : : Hi all, have : only : : been : : : trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my : labs : : are : : : awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago : I : : believe. : : : Here are my results for those interested. : : : : : : Thyroid…TSH…..6.39   normal 0.4-6.1 : : : : : : On the U/A I was positive for Nitrites and Leukocyte not sure : what : : either : : : one is. : : : : : : Weight loss in last Month and Half has been 40 pounds and that : was : : the only : : : thing they were pleased about other than for this same time : limit : : my Glucose : : : has been within very normal limits. : : : : : : But I anticipate since I have only been trying for a short : time my : : next labs : : : will be better……I sure do hope so. : : : : : : I want to give thanks to Loretta and Reisa for being such good : : friends and : : : cheering me on in email three times a week. I appreciate you : two : : immensely. : : : Thanks! ! ! ! : : : : : : Diana : : : who will continue trying because boy this weight loss has been : : good for my : : : self esteem : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : — : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Response:

Ohhhhhhh my own Mickey Ears???? Cool ! You are on LOL. Di —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – yeah, and remember all the crap you had been eating also along with no exercise for the previous 6months.. so now you got all that going.. sure your a1c will be higher.. but now your out moving more, and eating better.. watch I’ll betcha a set of mickey’s ears next a1c will be 6.5% or less … along with better lipids overall — RK [T1 - dx 5/00]-[Lantus/Novolog]-[Experiments in progress...] http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.faqs.org/faqs/diabetes/faq http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/files/zl-mirc.exe (chatroom software/verified clean w/Norton) Current Troll List: See ASD site for current list and how to killfile : LOL you are too cute. I love ya. Actually I went from 7.1 to 7.6 in the last : six months. Not drastic but not good. I will do better cause I looked at my : meter and it gives a Thirty Day AVERAGE and here it is for those times: : Brk…    145 : MMO…121 : LUN…..112 : MAf……114 : DIN……114 : EVE……100 : BED……114 : NGT……125 : : : Di : : — : : : aw hells bells… dunt go getting pissy on yourself over your labs : just like the weight didn’t get there overnight, your labs aren’t : going to drop overnight either. : : dont worry you’ll get there with next to perfect labs by the time : we are done with you.. LOL : : how much have they changed in 6months? : : — : RK : [T1 - dx 5/00]-[Lantus/Novolog]-[Experiments in progress...] : http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org : http://www.faqs.org/faqs/diabetes/faq : http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/files/zl-mirc.exe (chatroom : software/verified clean w/Norton) : Current Troll List: See ASD site for current list and how to : killfile : : Hi all, only : been : : trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs : are : : awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I : believe. : : Here are my results for those interested. : : : : Thyroid…TSH…..6.39   normal 0.4-6.1 : : : : On the U/A I was positive for Nitrites and Leukocyte not sure what : either : : one is. : : : : Weight loss in last Month and Half has been 40 pounds and that was : the only : : thing they were pleased about other than for this same time limit : my Glucose : : has been within very normal limits. : : : : But I anticipate since I have only been trying for a short time my : next labs : : will be better……I sure do hope so. : : : : I want to give thanks to Loretta and Reisa for being such good : friends and : : cheering me on in email three times a week. I appreciate you two : immensely. : : Thanks! ! ! ! : : : : Diana : : who will continue trying because boy this weight loss has been : good for my : : self esteem : : : : : : : : : : — : : : : : : : : : : : :

Response:

yeah, and remember all the crap you had been eating also along with no exercise for the previous 6months.. so now you got all that going.. sure your a1c will be higher.. but now your out moving more, and eating better.. watch I’ll betcha a set of mickey’s ears next a1c will be 6.5% or less … along with better lipids overall — RK [T1 - dx 5/00]-[Lantus/Novolog]-[Experiments in progress...] http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.faqs.org/faqs/diabetes/faq http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/files/zl-mirc.exe (chatroom software/verified clean w/Norton) Current Troll List: See ASD site for current list and how to killfile

: LOL you are too cute. I love ya. Actually I went from 7.1 to 7.6 in the last : six months. Not drastic but not good. I will do better cause I looked at my : meter and it gives a Thirty Day AVERAGE and here it is for those times: : Brk…    145 : MMO…121 : LUN…..112 : MAf……114 : DIN……114 : EVE……100 : BED……114 : NGT……125 : : : Di : : — : :

: aw hells bells… dunt go getting pissy on yourself over your labs : just like the weight didn’t get there overnight, your labs aren’t : going to drop overnight either. : : dont worry you’ll get there with next to perfect labs by the time : we are done with you.. LOL : : how much have they changed in 6months? : : — : RK : [T1 - dx 5/00]-[Lantus/Novolog]-[Experiments in progress...] : http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org : http://www.faqs.org/faqs/diabetes/faq : http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/files/zl-mirc.exe (chatroom : software/verified clean w/Norton) : Current Troll List: See ASD site for current list and how to : killfile : : Hi all, only : been : : trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs : are : : awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I : believe. : : Here are my results for those interested. : : : : Thyroid…TSH…..6.39   normal 0.4-6.1 : : : : On the U/A I was positive for Nitrites and Leukocyte not sure what : either : : one is. : : : : Weight loss in last Month and Half has been 40 pounds and that was : the only : : thing they were pleased about other than for this same time limit : my Glucose : : has been within very normal limits. : : : : But I anticipate since I have only been trying for a short time my : next labs : : will be better……I sure do hope so. : : : : I want to give thanks to Loretta and Reisa for being such good : friends and : : cheering me on in email three times a week. I appreciate you two : immensely. : : Thanks! ! ! ! : : : : Diana : : who will continue trying because boy this weight loss has been : good for my : : self esteem : : : : : : : : : : — : : : : : : : : : : : :

Response:

LOL you are too cute. I love ya. Actually I went from 7.1 to 7.6 in the last six months. Not drastic but not good. I will do better cause I looked at my meter and it gives a Thirty Day AVERAGE and here it is for those times: Brk…    145 MMO…121 LUN…..112 MAf……114 DIN……114 EVE……100 BED……114 NGT……125 Di —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – aw hells bells… dunt go getting pissy on yourself over your labs just like the weight didn’t get there overnight, your labs aren’t going to drop overnight either. dont worry you’ll get there with next to perfect labs by the time we are done with you.. LOL how much have they changed in 6months? — RK [T1 - dx 5/00]-[Lantus/Novolog]-[Experiments in progress...] http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.faqs.org/faqs/diabetes/faq http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/files/zl-mirc.exe (chatroom software/verified clean w/Norton) Current Troll List: See ASD site for current list and how to killfile : Hi all, been : trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs are : awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I believe. : Here are my results for those interested. : : Thyroid…TSH…..6.39   normal 0.4-6.1 : : On the U/A I was positive for Nitrites and Leukocyte not sure what either : one is. : : Weight loss in last Month and Half has been 40 pounds and that was the only : thing they were pleased about other than for this same time limit my Glucose : has been within very normal limits. : : But I anticipate since I have only been trying for a short time my next labs : will be better……I sure do hope so. : : I want to give thanks to Loretta and Reisa for being such good friends and : cheering me on in email three times a week. I appreciate you two immensely. : Thanks! ! ! ! : : Diana : who will continue trying because boy this weight loss has been good for my : self esteem : : : : : — : : : :

Response:

Hi all, trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs are awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I believe. Here are my results for those interested. Thyroid…TSH…..6.39   normal 0.4-6.1 On the U/A I was positive for Nitrites and Leukocyte not sure what either one is. Weight loss in last Month and Half has been 40 pounds and that was the only thing they were pleased about other than for this same time limit my Glucose has been within very normal limits. But I anticipate since I have only been trying for a short time my next labs will be better……I sure do hope so. I want to give thanks to Loretta and Reisa for being such good friends and cheering me on in email three times a week. I appreciate you two immensely. Thanks! ! ! ! Diana who will continue trying because boy this weight loss has been good for my self esteem —

Response:

aw hells bells… dunt go getting pissy on yourself over your labs just like the weight didn’t get there overnight, your labs aren’t going to drop overnight either. dont worry you’ll get there with next to perfect labs by the time we are done with you.. LOL how much have they changed in 6months? — RK [T1 - dx 5/00]-[Lantus/Novolog]-[Experiments in progress...] http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.faqs.org/faqs/diabetes/faq http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/files/zl-mirc.exe (chatroom software/verified clean w/Norton) Current Troll List: See ASD site for current list and how to killfile

: Hi all, been : trying for less than two months to take care of myself and my labs are : awful. They are worse than when first diagnosed four years ago I believe. : Here are my results for those interested. : : Thyroid…TSH…..6.39   normal 0.4-6.1 : : On the U/A I was positive for Nitrites and Leukocyte not sure what either : one is. : : Weight loss in last Month and Half has been 40 pounds and that was the only : thing they were pleased about other than for this same time limit my Glucose : has been within very normal limits. : : But I anticipate since I have only been trying for a short time my next labs : will be better……I sure do hope so. : : I want to give thanks to Loretta and Reisa for being such good friends and : cheering me on in email three times a week. I appreciate you two immensely. : Thanks! ! ! ! : : Diana : who will continue trying because boy this weight loss has been good for my : self esteem : : : : : — : : : :

Response:

Question:

It’s anti doctor rant time here… Immoral!!! What??? How is it immoral? Putting your hormone level back to normal is some how going to cause you to morph into this muscle bound rapist? I don’t think so. I guess it’s immoral to restore a diabetic’s glucose level to normal or prescribe glasses for a guy who is starting to get farsighted. Bullshit! Yes, if your T level was normal without TRT it would be unwise to agument it just so you can win the Mr. Universe competition. But, hell, that’s not what you are asking for. All you want is to be your old self again. Not to be 18 forever or to be superman, just to be your normal self. I guess he considers folks who go to weight watchers immoral too. Sheesh! IMHO, fire your doctor and let him know he’s fired. Oh, I know exactly what you mean by thyroid storm. I experienced it for about 6 months after my surgery and my doc basically did nothing, nothing. end of rant, Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Joe D. and MikeTX, Thanks for the replies.  I suspect that the endocrinologist is worried that if I did begin to look like a fit male again, he would be accused of abusing his prescription privileges.  After all, helping a guy look younger and feel better is immoral right? Both the endo and the primary care doc have said that they WILL NOT allow me to go into the upper half of the normal range for testosterone because it "would be immoral."  I’ve been a patient patient and haven’t raised a fuss about that.  I just want to loose the 100 lbs I gained while a former primary doc allowed me to go through thyroid storm and reach profound hypothyroidism before beginning treatment.  All hormones are currently in the middle or lower half of the ranges.  Now I want to regain the health I used to have and it seems like he’s reversed his earlier health advise (using thyroid hormone ranges versus TSH) and wants to pull back on the testosterone for some moral reasoning.  He has said on several occasions that he is a "nihilist." believing in doing the least to interrupt the natural course of the bodily physiology.  I suppose that means that he’s got a healthy respect for the body’s ability to self regulate things, but I can’t help but begin to suspect now that he is trying to prevent this 40 yr old from regaining the hard body I had up till my mid thirties. I don’t even think he knows that he’s doing this, Have others out there ran into docs feeling that hormone replacement It’s true a normal man produces more T if he works out, esp lower-body weight lifting. However this is irrelevant to someone on TRT. In that case your body isn’t producing hardly any T  – exercise probably has relatively little effect on serum T level.

Response:

See "The Demonization of Anabolic Steroids" for more on this http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/williams/demonization-of-anabol… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Your rant brings up one for me…. Why do Dr’s consider using T for body building as wrong or immoral, when Dr’s perform and market cosmetic surgery. Without a doubt more people have died an been disfigured and suffered life long consequences from cosmetic surgery than steroid abuse, let alone Dr supervised  T supplementation. I suppose the reasons lots of people (not only doctors) have problems with steroids used for body building (BB) as opposed to cosmetic surgery (CS) could be: – with BB there is considerable doubt that the steroids actually work (ref: study reported in NEJOM about a year ago); for CS you can actually see a result that is without doubt the result of surgery There is doubt only among people that dislike their use. There are numerous studies showing that the use of steroids has effects on physical performance. Even at slightly elevated levels. This of course ignores the decades of obvious evidence by merely observing steroid users in the gym, sports, and entertainment (wrestling). – some CS is actually done to remedy serious body problems (damaged jaws, missing breasts due to mastectomy etc.) whereas steroids for BB has no relation to a cure for disease, or the problems wrought by disease. As some steroids are used is to correct serious physical and mental problems. – people have an idea of what "the norm" is and it doesn’t extend to muscle bound teenagers; it does extend to (say) reducing your nose if it’s the size of Jimmy Durante’s or providing some breast level (say a B cup) for a completely flat-chested girl. Where does the norm not include muscle bound men, teenagers and otherwise. Define "muscle bound".   Where does the norm include 48 HHH breasts that Dr’s make for women? – despite all the hoo-hah about breast implants causing auto-immune disease and nose jobs gone awry I think most would see the surgery as more straightforward and safer than manipulating something that may have who-knows-what consequences years later. For old duffers such as ourselves it probably doesn’t matter if we inadvertently perform self-castration; it’s a lot different if some 19 year old does it. I wasnt even referring to BI auto imune disorders, since they are not proven. I was simply talking about routine complications from surgery, such as infections and reactions to operative and post operative medications, scarring and nerve damage done by the surgery. – steroid use for BB seems to most people to be cheating–aren’t races, weight lifting etc supposed to be you and not you plus a chemical? OTOH having a boob job isn’t really cheating because everyone can see it and besides the girl’s not in a race (maybe a wet T-shirt contest?). Even though she may be competing with other girls for the available males and big breasts may give her an advantage, I don’t think people like to see it that way. Perhaps it’s all’s fair in love and war. Would this not include the skinny guy who wants some balance to his body? Are you trying to say that undergoing breast augmentation, liposuction, collogen implants, and botox are better than supplemental steroids? Remember that I was talking about supervised hormone therapy, not some guy trying huge amounts of roids in the basement. – allegedly there are significant psychological problems associated with superphysilogical levels of T which are even reported on some of the body building sites. There don’t seem to be any psychological problems with most CS or at least they’re balanced (depression vs elation). If you are referring to properly done CS, then you should also consider properly done  hormone therapy. Dr controlled hormone therapy would have none of the side effects that people associate with steroid abuse. BB’s are known for using many times the level of steroids needed to reach supraphysilogical levels. They also use combinations of steroids. They have decades of hands on research and side effects because they cant  use scientific methods to test steroids levels, because it is illegal.  If this was monitored by a Dr, IMHO, the side effects and danger commonly associated with steroid abuse would not exist in those cases.   – I don’t have anything to back this up but I would guess that most problems caused by CS are relatively easy to rectify (e.g., remove the implants) but if there are problems caused by steroids for BB such as liver damage, the cure is much less obvious. CS problems can usually be solved by more surgeries, some do leave permanent disfigurement. Of course if you die on the table getting those nice breasts….. Many ailments from steroid abuse are can rectifed by of all things, CS, some are irreversible if caught too late.  The liver damage worry is a carry over from the old days of taking pills, injectables do not have near the risk of liver damage.  Many drugs have much more serious effects on the liver, look at some of the commonly prescribed cholestorol lowering drugs as an example. When monitored by a properly trained physician, steroids pose very little risk. It is the people who buy steroids and use and abuse them because they dont know what they are doing that put themselves at risk. That is no different than many other drugs, such as pain killers, diet pills and allergy pils. I’m sure there are others…

Response:

I wish I could have thought to say some of these responces to my endo’s "immoral" statement.  Sadly, it seems to be a common belief.  My PCP is an endocrinologist who found low testosterone after correcting thyroid levels didn’t relieve me of lethargy.  This endo refused to write for testosterone although three successive total testosterone levels came back near the bottom of the range (240’s and 250’s for a 38 year old male).  He told me that it was a blessing in disguise since castrated men lived longer!  I asked if he was willing to castrate himself to live longer – after three appointments asking for replacement, he sent me to another endocrinologist at a large medical research university. Both docs said that lacking records showing my testosterone levels to be higher at an earlier point in life, they believed that I may have always been low, and that prescribing testosterone would raise it above "what [my] body naturally wanted" and immoral.  They said that the reference range includes people "like you" who were probably always low. How do you defend your belief that you used to be normal and that a change has occurred? Who has a record of their hormone levels when they were still normal?  What doc would order them for normal healthy people and what insurance would pay for that? Never mind the fact that I’ve always been a muscular hairy guy until my thyroid odyssey began. I got the second endo to budge when I showed him print outs of weight lifting and body fat analysis records from gym computer records from my early thirties when I was a lean power lifter.   I then had to defend myself against his suspicions that I ruined my hypothalamic pituitary axis with steroids.  Finally, he wrote the ’script.   When my first testosterone results came back after replacement, I was only in the 350’s and he declared me a success since I was in the range.   I complained of still feeling crappy and he raised me to 10 grams androgel a day.  Last tested in the mid 400 range on one test and almost 600 on another (same blood sample that he sent to two different labs for comparison).  O.K., good enough I guess, I’m not trying to become Charles Atlas.  In fact, I have had NO time or energy to exercise.  On this visit, I mentioned that I was going to rejoin a gym to try and loose the weight.  This is when he panicked about keeping my testosterone levels from "getting too high."  

Response:

You’ve already changed doctors several times. I understand your reluctance to change again, spend more money and time and probly get someone just as bad. I kind of went through that. But you are right and they are dead wrong. You only want your old life back. While you don’t want your T level above the top of the normal range, there is nothing at all immoral about wanting it in the upper third. So what if it’s a bit higher than it originally was! If your problem was high cholestrol would it be a bad thing if your meds brought it down below where it was when you were in your 20’s? I’m guessing that my T levels are higher now than they were as a teen because for the first time ever I have chest hair. That wasn’t my goal or reason for starting TRT and it isn’t a good reason to stop or cut back. I don’t have acne and my hemocrit is still inside range. When you get your T level into the upper third and your estradiol into the lower third you will feel like exercising, you will loose that weight, and you will feel good again. Fire your doctor and start on a quest for one who understands. Mike

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Your rant brings up one for me…. Why do Dr’s consider using T for body building as wrong or immoral, when Dr’s perform and market cosmetic surgery. Without a doubt more people have died an been disfigured and suffered life long consequences from cosmetic surgery than steroid abuse, let alone Dr supervised  T supplementation. I suppose the reasons lots of people (not only doctors) have problems with steroids used for body building (BB) as opposed to cosmetic surgery (CS) could be: – with BB there is considerable doubt that the steroids actually work (ref: study reported in NEJOM about a year ago); for CS you can actually see a result that is without doubt the result of surgery

There is doubt only among people that dislike their use. There are numerous studies showing that the use of steroids has effects on physical performance. Even at slightly elevated levels. This of course ignores the decades of obvious evidence by merely observing steroid users in the gym, sports, and entertainment (wrestling). – some CS is actually done to remedy serious body problems (damaged jaws, missing breasts due to mastectomy etc.) whereas steroids for BB has no relation to a cure for disease, or the problems wrought by disease.

As some steroids are used is to correct serious physical and mental problems. – people have an idea of what "the norm" is and it doesn’t extend to muscle bound teenagers; it does extend to (say) reducing your nose if it’s the size of Jimmy Durante’s or providing some breast level (say a B cup) for a completely flat-chested girl.

Where does the norm not include muscle bound men, teenagers and otherwise. Define "muscle bound".   Where does the norm include 48 HHH breasts that Dr’s make for women? – despite all the hoo-hah about breast implants causing auto-immune disease and nose jobs gone awry I think most would see the surgery as more straightforward and safer than manipulating something that may have who-knows-what consequences years later. For old duffers such as ourselves it probably doesn’t matter if we inadvertently perform self-castration; it’s a lot different if some 19 year old does it.

I wasnt even referring to BI auto imune disorders, since they are not proven. I was simply talking about routine complications from surgery, such as infections and reactions to operative and post operative medications, scarring and nerve damage done by the surgery. – steroid use for BB seems to most people to be cheating–aren’t races, weight lifting etc supposed to be you and not you plus a chemical? OTOH having a boob job isn’t really cheating because everyone can see it and besides the girl’s not in a race (maybe a wet T-shirt contest?). Even though she may be competing with other girls for the available males and big breasts may give her an advantage, I don’t think people like to see it that way. Perhaps it’s all’s fair in love and war.

Would this not include the skinny guy who wants some balance to his body? Are you trying to say that undergoing breast augmentation, liposuction, collogen implants, and botox are better than supplemental steroids? Remember that I was talking about supervised hormone therapy, not some guy trying huge amounts of roids in the basement. – allegedly there are significant psychological problems associated with superphysilogical levels of T which are even reported on some of the body building sites. There don’t seem to be any psychological problems with most CS or at least they’re balanced (depression vs elation).

If you are referring to properly done CS, then you should also consider properly done  hormone therapy. Dr controlled hormone therapy would have none of the side effects that people associate with steroid abuse. BB’s are known for using many times the level of steroids needed to reach supraphysilogical levels. They also use combinations of steroids. They have decades of hands on research and side effects because they cant  use scientific methods to test steroids levels, because it is illegal.  If this was monitored by a Dr, IMHO, the side effects and danger commonly associated with steroid abuse would not exist in those cases.   – I don’t have anything to back this up but I would guess that most problems caused by CS are relatively easy to rectify (e.g., remove the implants) but if there are problems caused by steroids for BB such as liver damage, the cure is much less obvious.

CS problems can usually be solved by more surgeries, some do leave permanent disfigurement. Of course if you die on the table getting those nice breasts….. Many ailments from steroid abuse are can rectifed by of all things, CS, some are irreversible if caught too late.  The liver damage worry is a carry over from the old days of taking pills, injectables do not have near the risk of liver damage.  Many drugs have much more serious effects on the liver, look at some of the commonly prescribed cholestorol lowering drugs as an example. When monitored by a properly trained physician, steroids pose very little risk. It is the people who buy steroids and use and abuse them because they dont know what they are doing that put themselves at risk. That is no different than many other drugs, such as pain killers, diet pills and allergy pils. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m sure there are others…

Response:

It appears you need to change Drs. It’s your life — you are in charge. If you can’t find a local Dr, you can contact Dr Shippen (Reading, PA) or Dr Kryger (Monteray, CA). See below links. Maybe others can suggest cooperative Drs they’ve consulted with. I’d also suggest reading the white paper "Compounded Percutaneous Testosterone Gel: Use And Effects in Hypogonadal Men".  It’s on www.familypractice.com, select "Search" (upper right), and in the Search For box, enter "testosterone". It should be the 1st article returned. Also get a copy of The Testosterone Syndrome, By Eugene Shippen. Here are a couple of links to the book on Amazon: http://urlizer.com/00/1049/ URL:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/087131858X/qid=1025708672/sr=1-1/ ref=sr_1_1/104-8675012-4516734 Here are some other links. I’m not advocating any of the treatments or content. Just trying to provide some info. http://www.wellnessmd.com http://www.acor.org/TCRC/tclinks6.html http://www.lef.org/doctors/directoryofdoctors01.html http://www.maxlife4u.com/index.html According to one study, the average total T for your age is 668 ng/dl. Some men will be higher than this and some lower. The initial target for TRT should approximate this number. Regarding your Dr saying maybe your T was always low — how does he know that? Maybe your T was always *high*, which makes your situation even worse. It appears he’s just looking for any twisted reason to not treat you, or to under-treat you. If you are at 600 ng/dl and the ref range is 300-800 that’s pretty good. If you are at 400 ng/dl and the ref range is 300-1100, that’s not good. The test disparity indicates need for several more tests, not simply believing whichever result confirms the Drs belief. However it’s also important to measure estradiol and prolactin. High levels of either can nullify the effect of T. Have you had a glucose tolerance test? That also might be wise. These aren’t exotic — they’re  just standard tests for someone with your symptoms. You should also have your *free* T measured to account for binding globulin. If all these tests look OK, you should pursue (a) getting your thyroid TSH to the 2-3 range and (b) getting your *free* T to an age-appropriate range (while maintaining normal estradiol). If you still lack energy and if you have any symptoms of depression you might consider taking Wellbutrin. It’s a stimulating antidepressant that won’t cause sexual problems. In some cases it causes mild weight loss. — Joe D.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I wish I could have thought to say some of these responces to my endo’s "immoral" statement.  Sadly, it seems to be a common belief.  My PCP is an endocrinologist who found low testosterone after correcting thyroid levels didn’t relieve me of lethargy.  This endo refused to write for testosterone although three successive total testosterone levels came back near the bottom of the range (240’s and 250’s for a 38 year old male).  He told me that it was a blessing in disguise since castrated men lived longer!  I asked if he was willing to castrate himself to live longer – after three appointments asking for replacement, he sent me to another endocrinologist at a large medical research university. Both docs said that lacking records showing my testosterone levels to be higher at an earlier point in life, they believed that I may have always been low, and that prescribing testosterone would raise it above "what [my] body naturally wanted" and immoral.  They said that the reference range includes people "like you" who were probably always low. How do you defend your belief that you used to be normal and that a change has occurred? Who has a record of their hormone levels when they were still normal?  What doc would order them for normal healthy people and what insurance would pay for that? Never mind the fact that I’ve always been a muscular hairy guy until my thyroid odyssey began. I got the second endo to budge when I showed him print outs of weight lifting and body fat analysis records from gym computer records from my early thirties when I was a lean power lifter. I then had to defend myself against his suspicions that I ruined my hypothalamic pituitary axis with steroids.  Finally, he wrote the ’script. When my first testosterone results came back after replacement, I was only in the 350’s and he declared me a success since I was in the range. I complained of still feeling crappy and he raised me to 10 grams androgel a day.  Last tested in the mid 400 range on one test and almost 600 on another (same blood sample that he sent to two different labs for comparison).  O.K., good enough I guess, I’m not trying to become Charles Atlas.  In fact, I have had NO time or energy to exercise.  On this visit, I mentioned that I was going to rejoin a gym to try and loose the weight.  This is when he panicked about keeping my testosterone levels from "getting too high."

Response:

Your rant brings up one for me…. Why do Dr’s consider using T for body building as wrong or immoral, when Dr’s perform and market cosmetic surgery. Without a doubt more people have died an been disfigured and suffered life long consequences from cosmetic surgery than steroid abuse, let alone Dr supervised  T supplementation. Ok, I’m done ranting…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s anti doctor rant time here… Immoral!!! What??? How is it immoral? Putting your hormone level back to normal is some how going to cause you to morph into this muscle bound rapist? I don’t think so. I guess it’s immoral to restore a diabetic’s glucose level to normal or prescribe glasses for a guy who is starting to get farsighted. Bullshit! Yes, if your T level was normal without TRT it would be unwise to agument it just so you can win the Mr. Universe competition. But, hell, that’s not what you are asking for. All you want is to be your old self again. Not to be 18 forever or to be superman, just to be your normal self. I guess he considers folks who go to weight watchers immoral too. Sheesh! IMHO, fire your doctor and let him know he’s fired. Oh, I know exactly what you mean by thyroid storm. I experienced it for about 6 months after my surgery and my doc basically did nothing, nothing. end of rant, Mike

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Your rant brings up one for me…. Why do Dr’s consider using T for body building as wrong or immoral, when Dr’s perform and market cosmetic surgery. Without a doubt more people have died an been disfigured and suffered life long consequences from cosmetic surgery than steroid abuse, let alone Dr supervised  T supplementation.

I suppose the reasons lots of people (not only doctors) have problems with steroids used for body building (BB) as opposed to cosmetic surgery (CS) could be: – with BB there is considerable doubt that the steroids actually work (ref: study reported in NEJOM about a year ago); for CS you can actually see a result that is without doubt the result of surgery – some CS is actually done to remedy serious body problems (damaged jaws, missing breasts due to mastectomy etc.) whereas steroids for BB has no relation to a cure for disease, or the problems wrought by disease. – people have an idea of what "the norm" is and it doesn’t extend to muscle bound teenagers; it does extend to (say) reducing your nose if it’s the size of Jimmy Durante’s or providing some breast level (say a B cup) for a completely flat-chested girl. – despite all the hoo-hah about breast implants causing auto-immune disease and nose jobs gone awry I think most would see the surgery as more straightforward and safer than manipulating something that may have who-knows-what consequences years later. For old duffers such as ourselves it probably doesn’t matter if we inadvertently perform self-castration; it’s a lot different if some 19 year old does it. – steroid use for BB seems to most people to be cheating–aren’t races, weight lifting etc supposed to be you and not you plus a chemical? OTOH having a boob job isn’t really cheating because everyone can see it and besides the girl’s not in a race (maybe a wet T-shirt contest?). Even though she may be competing with other girls for the available males and big breasts may give her an advantage, I don’t think people like to see it that way. Perhaps it’s all’s fair in love and war. – allegedly there are significant psychological problems associated with superphysilogical levels of T which are even reported on some of the body building sites. There don’t seem to be any psychological problems with most CS or at least they’re balanced (depression vs elation). – I don’t have anything to back this up but I would guess that most problems caused by CS are relatively easy to rectify (e.g., remove the implants) but if there are problems caused by steroids for BB such as liver damage, the cure is much less obvious. I’m sure there are others…

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Joe D. and MikeTX, Thanks for the replies.  I suspect that the endocrinologist is worried that if I did begin to look like a fit male again, he would be accused of abusing his prescription privileges.  After all, helping a guy look younger and feel better is immoral right? Both the endo and the primary care doc have said that they WILL NOT allow me to go into the upper half of the normal range for testosterone because it "would be immoral."  I’ve been a patient patient and haven’t raised a fuss about that.  I just want to loose the 100 lbs I gained while a former primary doc allowed me to go through thyroid storm and reach profound hypothyroidism before beginning treatment.  All hormones are currently in the middle or lower half of the ranges.  Now I want to regain the health I used to have and it seems like he’s reversed his earlier health advise (using thyroid hormone ranges versus TSH) and wants to pull back on the testosterone for some moral reasoning.  He has said on several occasions that he is a "nihilist." believing in doing the least to interrupt the natural course of the bodily physiology.  I suppose that means that he’s got a healthy respect for the body’s ability to self regulate things, but I can’t help but begin to suspect now that he is trying to prevent this 40 yr old from regaining the hard body I had up till my mid thirties. I don’t even think he knows that he’s doing this, Have others out there ran into docs feeling that hormone replacement – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s true a normal man produces more T if he works out, esp lower-body weight lifting. However this is irrelevant to someone on TRT. In that case your body isn’t producing hardly any T  – exercise probably has relatively little effect on serum T level.

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Wow, it sounds like your Dr needs a psychiatrist. Whatever his philosophical or religious beliefs are, it shouldn’t affect the scientific, methodical reasoning required to diagnose and treat a condition. If it is you should seek a Dr who will treat you according to your symptoms and current scientific thought. Re immoral to be in the upper 1/2 of ref range, the position of the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists is clear on this. Their practice guidelines on this matter are at http://www.aace.com/clin/guidelines/sexdysguid.pdf. They say age-related T declines are no longer considered normal, and any man with low-normal T warrants a clinical trial of TRT. If age-related declines are abnormal the implication is clear: the lower limit of current ref ranges are artificially low, being influenced by the aged, T-deficient men in the sample group. Actual age-dependent T numbers are at:  http://www.alt-support-impotence.org/hormone_charts.htm Does he also decrease women’s HRT dose because of "moral" reasons? If not why treat men differently? Having the goal of minimally perturbing the body is good, if done within reason. If you have a headache, don’t take more aspirin than you need to get relief. With hormones it’s different, and using this approach is dangerous and harmful to the patient. E.g. by this reasoning a person with complete thyroid failure should be given the bare minimum to get them into the ref range, no more. Obviously the patient would be very unwell if treated like this. TRT is similar. As a starting point, you need the amount appropriate for YOUR AGE. Some men need more, and some less. However the age-dependent value should be the starting point for further adjustments. Read the above documents and discuss with your Dr. Tell him you don’t want to find after several more years of low-normal T that an age-appropriate T level would have avoided lots of suffering. IOW you (and your Dr) don’t want to find he’s been under-dosing you for years without proper grounds. If he doesn’t get the message, switch Drs. — Joe D.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Joe D. and MikeTX, Thanks for the replies.  I suspect that the endocrinologist is worried that if I did begin to look like a fit male again, he would be accused of abusing his prescription privileges.  After all, helping a guy look younger and feel better is immoral right? Both the endo and the primary care doc have said that they WILL NOT allow me to go into the upper half of the normal range for testosterone because it "would be immoral."  I’ve been a patient patient and haven’t raised a fuss about that.  I just want to loose the 100 lbs I gained while a former primary doc allowed me to go through thyroid storm and reach profound hypothyroidism before beginning treatment.  All hormones are currently in the middle or lower half of the ranges.  Now I want to regain the health I used to have and it seems like he’s reversed his earlier health advise (using thyroid hormone ranges versus TSH) and wants to pull back on the testosterone for some moral reasoning.  He has said on several occasions that he is a "nihilist." believing in doing the least to interrupt the natural course of the bodily physiology.  I suppose that means that he’s got a healthy respect for the body’s ability to self regulate things, but I can’t help but begin to suspect now that he is trying to prevent this 40 yr old from regaining the hard body I had up till my mid thirties. I don’t even think he knows that he’s doing this, Have others out there ran into docs feeling that hormone replacement It’s true a normal man produces more T if he works out, esp lower-body weight lifting. However this is irrelevant to someone on TRT. In that case your body isn’t producing hardly any T  – exercise probably has relatively little effect on serum T level.

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It’s true a normal man produces more T if he works out, esp lower-body weight lifting. However this is irrelevant to someone on TRT. In that case your body isn’t producing hardly any T  – exercise probably has relatively little effect on serum T level. There’s also no "balance" between TRT and internal production. There’s no such thing as testosterone supplementation. When you start taking T, your internal production shuts down. This happens at a fairly low level of external T. By the time you’re taking enough T to reach an age-appropriate serum level, your body isn’t making any internally. Exercise is irrelevant in this case. That doesn’t mean exercise is unimportant for men on TRT — it’s very important for general health reasons. I’m not real familiar with thyroid issues, but I believe a TSH of 4.5 is too high by some standards. This seems very individualistic, but people often don’t feel well unless they take enough thyroid to lower their TSH to the 2-3 range. Considering that thyroid affects energy level and often weight, maybe you need more thyroid? Can you post your T results, including reference range? — Joe D. Message 1 in thread Newsgroups: alt.support.impotence View this article only Can anybody tell me if I’m nuts and the doc is right?  It sure seems like he’s saying the exact opposite of the correct medical advise.  He’s even contradicting his own advise in the past. I’ve been taking 25 mcg cytomel and 200 mcg levothyroxin as well as 10 grams androgel for years.  My endocrinologist always prescribed based on free T3, total t4, and free testosterone levels.  Today he told me that TSH is "the correct biological marker."  He denies saying in the past that suppressed TSH levels were meaningless due to the cytomel, and that as long as the T3 and T4 were in range, things were O.K.  The new labs show T4 under range, t3 middle range and TSH elevated (4.5). I think he’s loosing his memory.  In the same session, I said that I was joining a gym to try and remove the 100 lbs of fat that I’ve gained in the past few years.  I complained that I would loose some of the application time of the androgel because I would have to take a shower before and after the workout (before so that I don’t leave testosterone residue on the equipment).  He expressed concern that the testosterone levels would need to be watched more closely so that they don’t get ‘too high."  That sounds backwards doesn’t it?  God forbid that I show up in his office with a firm belly and muscles!  He might claim that this was a dangerous sign that I was taking too much thyroid and androgel hormones!

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This is an art, not a science in some ways. If you lose a hundred pounds that could theoretically change the amount of testo that is needed to achieve a certain serum level. I think that the thought that working out could cause you to produce more T and therefore require less external T is without much merit. Your testicles would be shut down with almost any amount of external T so what difference does it make.  But the point is that he said that it needs to be watched which implies that it will be adjusted as needed, if needed at all. Just monitor it and adjust it as needed, if at all. Winter

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I’m not sure about cytomel but I’m taking 7.5g androgel and 125mmg levothyroxin myself. It’s my understanding that levothyroxin is prescribed based on TSH numbers. A couple times before and just after my thyroid surgery I had T3 and T4 numbers run. I guess to make sure there was a normal correlation between them and the TSH numbers. There was and since I get TSH done twice a year with the goal of keeping it in midrange. The times my doc has raised or lower my dosage he retested a month later but only TSH. Yes, the T3/T4 numbers are the important numbers since they are the level of actual thyroid hormone but as long as things are totally screwed up TSH is used as the marker. I don’t have the ranges memorized but it looks like that the reason your TSH is elevated is that your T4 is low. That’s how it works, T4 goes down and the pituitary pumps out more TSH to try to raise it. I don’t know if the TSH is high enough to warrant raising your levothyroxin dosage or not. I’ve had my free T checked a few times but since my free T level paralleled my total T level my doc assumes that my problem is lack of T, not that too much is bound up. So, my androgel dosage is adjusted based on total T level with the goal of keeping it in the upper end of normal. It depends on when you apply your gel relative to when you work out as to whether you are loosing any application time. Why not do your daily application after your second shower? That way you only lose the last couple hours of the old application so it really isn’t going to matter much at all. If you do two applications a day, do the first after your showers and the second 8-12hrs later. I can’t see how working out would cause your T levels to skyrocket. Perhaps he thinks that the gel would absorb better if you didn’t have a thick fat layer or that if you were a smaller guy you’d somehow need less T. Maybe he’s right but I’ve never heard of this. I guess if you showed up next time looking like the Terminator he might think you were overdoing the T gel but surely a healthy weight loss and toned up muscles would be a good thing. He ought to be patting you on the back for being motivated enough to do this. I think he should be adjusting your T gel based on your blood work and how you feel, not on whether you manage to lose weight or start working out again. It’s not going to hurt anything to monitor your T level more closely. I just hope he doesn’t deside to cut your dosage making your T levels drop to the bottom of normal. That will reverse all your gains. Ok, I’ve rambled WAY too long. Time for more coffee. Mike

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Can anybody tell me if I’m nuts and the doc is right?  It sure seems like he’s saying the exact opposite of the correct medical advise.  He’s even contradicting his own advise in the past. I’ve been taking 25 mcg cytomel and 200 mcg levothyroxin as well as 10 grams androgel for years.  My endocrinologist always prescribed based on free T3, total t4, and free testosterone levels.  Today he told me that TSH is "the correct biological marker."  He denies saying in the past that suppressed TSH levels were meaningless due to the cytomel, and that as long as the T3 and T4 were in range, things were O.K.  The new labs show T4 under range, t3 middle range and TSH elevated (4.5).   I think he’s loosing his memory.  In the same session, I said that I was joining a gym to try and remove the 100 lbs of fat that I’ve gained in the past few years.  I complained that I would loose some of the application time of the androgel because I would have to take a shower before and after the workout (before so that I don’t leave testosterone residue on the equipment).  He expressed concern that the testosterone levels would need to be watched more closely so that they don’t get ‘too high."  That sounds backwards doesn’t it?  God forbid that I show up in his office with a firm belly and muscles!  He might claim that this was a dangerous sign that I was taking too much thyroid and androgel hormones!

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Question:

Eat above maintainence for a day a week sometimes works or zig zaging your diet(eat more one day, eat less the next day, rinse and repeat). back to pre-dieting conditions.  It usually takes about 7-10 days for thyroid TSH, T3, T4 levels to normalize after a metabolic slowdown.     Just keep your body guessing.  Do not let it adapt!!! Alan —  "I made the best gains of my life when I dumped  the "oh me so tired" crap and started getting on  with it for real." -Bryce Lane

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am curious as to why weight goes down in stages.  By that I mean you plateau for a while, it may even go up slightly then it drops a pound or three depending on calorie consumption.  Is there a phenomenon of tricking the body here so it doesn’t start going into a lower the metabolism survivor mode? thank you

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Yes, don’t go more than about 500 calories a day below maintenance for your current weight. This helps keep the metabolism from slowing down and thinking that you are starving. Most people go to low in calorie intake when they diet. Yes, you will lose very slowly, but you will not have to go so low in calories when you get closer to your goal weight. If you are 200 pounds and start out on a diet and eat much below 2000 calories, say around 1200 calories,  by the time you get to your goal weight of 140 pounds, you will have to eat lower then 1200 calories to support your loss. You want to be able to lose weight by dropping as few calories as possible to keep your metabolism from slowing down, but still lose at the same time. This targets more fat and less muscle. Since we are all different, you need to play around to find where you maintain your weight, then cut just 500 calories a day to lose 1 to 2 pounds a week. This will keep you from ptateauing a much. As you lose weight you will have to continue to cut back by 500 calories a day from your current weight. This usually is done by taking current weight times 8 or 10 to get current calorie intake. If you are currently a little too low in calorie intake and reached a plateau, up the calories for a few day or a week then drop by 500 calories and you will most likely lose weight again. This will enable you to keep from dropping even lower in calories to continuing to lose. Roxan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am curious as to why weight goes down in stages.  By that I mean you plateau for a while, it may even go up slightly then it drops a pound or three depending on calorie consumption.  Is there a phenomenon of tricking the body here so it doesn’t start going into a lower the metabolism survivor mode? thank you

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I am curious as to why weight goes down in stages.  By that I mean you plateau for a while, it may even go up slightly then it drops a pound or three depending on calorie consumption.  Is there a phenomenon of tricking the body here so it doesn’t start going into a lower the metabolism survivor mode? thank you

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Question:

I’m a 63 yo HIV+ gay man.   I’ve been on Wellbutrin SR 150 mg/2x/dy + Lithobid 300 mg/2x/dy since 1997.  Lithobid is for a "mood stabilizer" not bipolar. Because of my age and HIV status, male sexual partners are not that plentiful.  I’ve always considered the positive health benefits of orgasms, particularly orgasms that Wilhelm Reich described "whole body orgasms" vs "genital orgasms".. If i’m out of town I may do a simple quick wank.  But at home my erotic stimulatory first choice is cyber sex..which I think I’ve developed quite well over last 2.5 yrs.  Videos, once you’ve viewed one, they’re predictive, whereas in cyber…me and my partner are making our scene/fantasy up as we go along.  I visualize very well! Fortunately for gay/lesbians/bi/transgender we have a very comprehensive site http://www.gay.com/chat/   I can cyber with other gay men all over the world and usually do. Normally a cyber session will be at least 2 hrs…maybe a little longer.  My cock doesn’t stay hard that whole time but comes up and goes down….when the scene/fantasy is nearing the climatic scene then my cock is very hard and I struggle to just hold it right at the brink…Partners in cyber sex also like to orgasm as simultaneously as possible. It just been within the last couple of months, that at orgasm I have involuntary pelvic and quadriceps thrust….my copious ejaculate jetisons out at high velocity and achieves distance.  The copious ejaculate is due to my daily zinc supplementation and ejaculate velocity/distance…to the prolonged build up. Before a cyber session I generally take ~3 gms L-Arginine on an empty stomach. For r/t sex with male partners, Viagra had become "iffy" for me, so I had uro work me up for Trimix….I achieve a ~2 hrs nonbendable erection.   No worry that i’m not going to be able to get it up, which can be anxiety provoking when you are anticipating being with a new/regular male/female sexual partner. So my experience with Wellbutrin SR has been very positive… Just my experiences…. OR eon

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Kalas2 I suggest that you inform yourself about L-Arginine (LA) by reading the Scholarly Book…The Arginine Solution"  some of us here and perhaps more over at  http://www.alt-support-impotence.org/  have found that daily LA supplementation can enhance erectile functions….but alot of other body systems may be affected positively also. That cream may well be "snake oil" as you described it, as there is a proliferation of products based on the fact that LA is the precursor for nitric oxide, the gas that causes erections…..A Nobel Prize was awarded…this is from the second link below…. "Since 1986, this gas molecule has been considered an important player in the erectile process, prompting extensive research on its production and role in the relaxation of muscle cells. In fact, research that identified the nitric oxide signaling pathway led to the Nobel Prize for Physiology and Medicine in 1998. " Here are two sites on LA…the second is more scholarly…study citations in highly reputable scientific journals. http://www.smartbodyz.com/ArginineText.htm http://www.life-enhancement.com/displayart.asp?ID=556  I know of someone who’s wife use LA cream….it improves blood flow to vagina and clitoris.  BTW, it now know that men are not the only ones having nocturnal erections (NEs), that women have vaginal/clitoral erections i.e. increased blood flow during REM phase sleep. Here is a product that has gained popularity…. http://www.arginmax.com/html/store.htm Walgreens had this product on sale about a month ago. Finally, from my own experience(s)…I learned about LA at this NG in 1999 and Dec ‘99 ordered my first kilo of LA from  http://kilosports.com/  my third kilo arrived this week.  I take ~8 gm/dy  I take ~3 gms right after I get up before using cock pump for ~hr….if I’m going to have cybersex….I take ~3 gm about an hr before on empty stomach.  To facilitate nocturnal erections (NEs)  I take ~3 gm at bed time and have a 1 gm capsule on bedside table that I take at first piss call. Love feeling my cock throb between my legs at night…hard (nonbendable)/frequent NEs = healthy cock IMO. Just my experiences…. OR eon

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In reply to JoeD the thing is that the praxatine helps me, I used to take the drug for about a year but came off it for some unknown reason .o0 I think I thought I could be ok without it, I’ve now discovered that the drug helps me, its totally cured my premature ejaculation its like I’m in total control in that department and it helps me control my anixity so when taking Viagra I can perform.  but I still think the circulation in my dick could be better, still after that cream which no one knows the name of, I can remember that it has to be stored in a fridge. —

Question:

As part of the blood work I had done, I had my DHEA level tested and it was at the high end of the "normal" scale so I’m not taking DHEA supplements. Before you buy.

Response:

DHEA is as toxic as a vitamin capsule. It’s the precursor to SEVERAL of the hormones in our bodies and is made by our bodies. There have been human studies using regular doses of DHEA in excess of 1,600 mg daily. These studies have not been replicated, at least in part because later rat studies showed that weight- adjusted doses of a similar size led to [something really bad like liver cancer, but I can't remember for certain]. This was relayed to me through a trustworthy source, so I believe it. Whether or not we humans want to take DHEA in such large doses is another question; but it is probably not advisable.

Back in the 80’s I watched similar tests being used by the sugar industry to eviscerate the cyclamate manufacturers. Since one of my customers was Abbott Labs, the makers of cyclamate sweeteners, I was privy to the reports. Less than 1% of the rats, in that case, developed liver cancer as well. The dosages needed to cause that to happen were the equivalent of a TRUCKLOAD of sugar a week! The sodium in the mixture, plus the saccharine (pure calcium cyclamate wasn’t available yet) were more carcinogenic! To make things worse, the rats in question are BRED to be cancer-prone! IOW – massive doses of ANYTHING can be "carcinogenic" if the substance doesn’t have a toxicity constraint that prevents overdosing. The researchers at Abbott had a saying "water would cause cancer  in those rats if it was less poisonous!" That’s true, by the way. Water will "poison" you if you get to much of it by diluting your electrolytes and causing the potassium/sodium pump that powers your heart to fail!

Response:

The Viagra has worked to get him an erection but now we are experiencing premature ejaculation.  This is very devastating to his manhood and is psychologicaly affecting the other parts of his life.(work and our relationship)  He feels that he cannot satisfy my needs. Any suggestions on how to overcome premature ejaculation.  Should the Viagra fix it??  Could it be psychological?  Is there anything I coud do??

In some cases, time will take care of premature ejaculation (PE). If it doesn’t, there are a number of things you can do. Go to Fred’s web site and look there. http://www.chesco.com/~fps/index.html You will find links to a number of methods, such as wearing a rubber, masturbating to near climax then stopping. Things like that. One I haven’t seen is this: After he enters you, he should not take any strokes. Simplymove pubic to pubic. The pressure of the pubic bone on you and slight pressure and movements will help you achieve climax and the lack of stroking should help him last longer. If he starts to lose his erection he could take a stroke or two to increase his sensations. Hopefully after time, he will begin to last longer. Jerry of ASI

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It’s like chicken soup. It may help and it couldn’t hurt. Somewhere I’ve read (but can’t remember where exactly.  Either in a Harvard Health Newsletter, or UC Berkley Health Newsletter) that this stuff can be toxic and shouldn’t be used without supervision.  Are you aware of any recent studies that indicate otherwise?  I’d be more comfortable if there was more evidence that DHEA is beneficial.

DHEA is as toxic as a vitamin capsule. It’s the precursor to SEVERAL of the hormones in our bodies and is made by our bodies. Several women that I know maintain a post-menopausal estrogen level via DHEA and not via estrogen supplements. A couple of men that I’ve been in contact with have found it to help them keep their T level up. It’s like "food" for the gonads.

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DHEA is as toxic as a vitamin capsule. It’s the precursor to SEVERAL of the hormones in our bodies and is made by our bodies.

There have been human studies using regular doses of DHEA in excess of 1,600 mg daily. These studies have not been replicated, at least in part because later rat studies showed that weight- adjusted doses of a similar size led to [something really bad like liver cancer, but I can't remember for certain]. This was relayed to me through a trustworthy source, so I believe it. Whether or not we humans want to take DHEA in such large doses is another question; but it is probably not advisable. C/

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I am a female and have been dating a 34 year old male for seven months. In the beginning of our relationship there was no sex.  Eventually it came out in the open that he could not get an erection (only in the morning.) So with my support he went to the doctors to find out what was wrong.  The doctor did not ask him many questions but wrote a prescription for Viagra. The Viagra has worked to get him an erection but now we are experiencing premature ejaculation.  This is very devastating to his manhood and is psychologicaly affecting the other parts of his life.(work and our relationship)  He feels that he cannot satisfy my needs. Any suggestions on how to overcome premature ejaculation.  Should the Viagra fix it??  Could it be psychological?  Is there anything I coud do??

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a female and have been dating a 34 year old male for seven months. In the beginning of our relationship there was no sex.  Eventually it came out in the open that he could not get an erection (only in the morning.) So with my support he went to the doctors to find out what was wrong.  The doctor did not ask him many questions but wrote a prescription for Viagra. The Viagra has worked to get him an erection but now we are experiencing premature ejaculation.  This is very devastating to his manhood and is psychologicaly affecting the other parts of his life.(work and our relationship)  He feels that he cannot satisfy my needs. Any suggestions on how to overcome premature ejaculation.  Should the Viagra fix it??  Could it be psychological?  Is there anything I coud do??

This looks like a doctor with a quick prescription pad and no brain. He  (your boyfriend) shows signs of low T (morning erections – at the peak level) and should be checked for: Total Testosterone Free Testosterone Both the above should be in the UPPER HALF of the range. "Normal" includes 90-year-olds. Also Zinc – a deficiency is ungood. Estradiol – a process known as aromatization can give MAJOR problems. Thyroid (TSH) – this one complicates things all over. LH   – A low here means something is blocking natural production. FSH  —- if he doesn’t want kids and this is very low, he’s in luck. Otherwise… Performance anxiety could be a problem. Let him know that there are a lot of tricks that the two of you can try – and make him feel good – tell him that you don’t want to stop trying them even if the problem gets solved. A few "bedroom eyes" glances while saying this will go a long way in restoring his confidence and will be good for both of you in the long run. While waiting to find a competent doctor, get some DHEA at your local health food store or from www.kilosports.com (best price, quality goods). It can help "feed" his system. Add zinc (50-100 mg zinc gluconate per day for 2 weeks, then to a multi-vitamin plus minerals that includes zinc and copper). It’s like chicken soup. It may help and it couldn’t hurt.

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Question:

Newsgroups: alt.support.impotence Selegiline is now considered a "first line’ AD for men with the other symptoms as well. If it works then we know that it was the low T, because Selegiline is NOT an anti-depressant. Um, that’s controversial. The use of selegeline as an antidepressant has been explored on a number of occasions with mixed results, IIRC. At least one study (which was never replicated), proved it effective for depression.

My shrink started using it when i pointed out that low T, which included low "normal", could look like depression. He now tests for low T and anybody that shows up with a "T" in the bottom 1/3rd gets it as a first try. When it worked the T went up. When it didn’t the T didn’t go up. I’m bringing him some of my new gels on Thursday. They may help as well. The Z-tone suppresses excess prolactin and boosts dopamine and T. If it helps, then it means that a good B-complex vitamin source with zinc (oysters) really is an aphrodisiac! — *** http://medstuff.ftn.org – for the sake of your health *** ** http://www.rx3k.com The best products at the best price ** *** http://www.ftn.org  Fight the creatures of The Night ****

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Selegiline is now considered a "first line’ AD for men with the other symptoms as well. If it works then we know that it was the low T, because Selegiline is NOT an anti-depressant.

Um, that’s controversial. The use of selegeline as an antidepressant has been explored on a number of occasions with mixed results, IIRC. At least one study (which was never replicated), proved it effective for depression. The "depression lowers T" is partially bogus. The amount it will lower T is miniscule and is significant only if the person was already on the threshold.  A level of 600 won’t drop to 200 because of depression.

Yah. Prolly true. C//

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Um, that’s controversial. The use of selegeline as an antidepressant has been explored on a number of occasions with mixed results, IIRC. At least one study (which was never replicated), proved it effective for depression. My shrink started using it when i pointed out that low T, which included low "normal", could look like depression. He now tests for low T and anybody that shows up with a "T" in the bottom 1/3rd gets it as a first try.

I can believe that. This sounds like an emminently sensible idea. I remember reading an abstract a while back of a study that proved that selegeline can be safely combined with Celexa. This is notable, because there is a general prohibition against combining an MAOI (and this includes selegeline) with SSRI medication. No interaction effect, serotonin syndrome, or changes in blood pressure were detected. C//

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Thanks again everybody (esp. Alec and Mykstor) for the great information and kind assistence. This was very helpful. I’m seeing my Dr. next week and I am much better prepared now. Once I make some progress I’ll post my results. Before you buy.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: alt.support.impotence Um, that’s controversial. The use of selegeline as an antidepressant has been explored on a number of occasions with mixed results, IIRC. At least one study (which was never replicated), proved it effective for depression. My shrink started using it when i pointed out that low T, which included low "normal", could look like depression. He now tests for low T and anybody that shows up with a "T" in the bottom 1/3rd gets it as a first try. I can believe that. This sounds like an emminently sensible idea.

He’s gone back and removed people off heavy ADs withpoor results and zombie effects, switching them to selegiline and some to hCG or TRT. The results are spectacular! The "depression" was very "refractory" and deepening. Some are now making love to their wives for the first time in years and so positive in their outlook that they look like they’re on some sort of upper! My current endo said that, in his first report, that I was showing the signs of severe depression and that my T levels explained it all! I had been refusing ADs and demanding correct treatment. If I had accepted the AD treatment I’d be dead now. I remember reading an abstract a while back of a study that proved that selegeline can be safely combined with Celexa. This is notable, because there is a general prohibition against combining an MAOI (and this includes selegeline) with SSRI medication. No interaction effect, serotonin syndrome, or changes in blood pressure were detected.

There is a danger in combining a tricyclic and an MAO. The same shrink almost lost a patient who was taking St John’s Wort when he prescribed Amitriptyline. I’m on Elavil (AMI) for sleep and flexeril (cyclobenzaprine), so selegiline is not a good Idea for me, dammit! — *** http://medstuff.ftn.org – for the sake of your health *** ** http://www.rx3k.com The best products at the best price ** *** http://www.ftn.org  Fight the creatures of The Night ****

Response:

Newsgroups: alt.support.impotence    Justaguy, it is impossible for ANYONE here to assure you that YOUR depressed mental state is caused by low testosterone levels and that upping it will fix you. What IS true, is that low testosterone CAN CAUSE lassitude, or depression. Period.

Giving an anti-depressant to someone with his set of symptoms without checking if they are hormonal is poor medicine. Selegiline is now considered a "first line’ AD for men with the other symptoms as well. If it works then we know that it was the low T, because Selegiline is NOT an anti-depressant. In the pain group we’ve noticed a similar scenario, with pain being attributed to depression. In some cases the pain is physically verifiable – such as X-rays showing osteoarthritis – yet the first line of treatment is, too often, an AD!    Much is being noted lately about a suspicious connection between depression and low testosterone, but which comes first??? Also, it may be true or NOT that antidepressants lower testosterone levels, OR it may be that the underlying chemistry of depression… or existing in a prolonged psychologically "low" mood does it. The answers are presently unknown and very cutting-edge, exciting science. To me at least.

The "depression lowers T" is partially bogus. The amount it will lower T is miniscule and is significant only if the person was already on the threshold.  A level of 600 won’t drop to 200 because of depression. Even the above level of T lowering involves severe depression to the point where hospitalization for depression may be indicated. AD’s affect libido and sexual function in several ways. They drop T although this is usually significant only if the T problem already exists. Their major problem is that they interfere in other ways that includes the pathways used by T – they act as partial anti-androgens: 1: Behav Brain Res 1999 Nov 1;105(1):105-16 Hormone-neurotransmitter interactions in the control of sexual behavior. Hull EM, Lorrain DS, Du J, Matuszewich L, Lumley LA, Putnam SK, Moses J Department of Psychology, State University of New York at Buffalo, 14260-4110, USA. The stimuli from a receptive female and/or copulation itself leads to the release of dopamine (DA) in at least three integrative hubs. The nigrostriatal system promotes somatomotor activity; the mesolimbic system subserves numerous types of motivation; and the medial preoptic area (MPOA) focuses the motivation onto specifically sexual targets, increases copulatory rate and efficiency, and coordinates genital reflexes. The previous (but not necessarily concurrent) presence of testosterone is permissive for DA release in the MPOA, both during basal conditions and in response to a female. One means by which testosterone may increase DA release is by upregulating nitric oxide synthase, which produces nitric oxide, which in turn increases DA release. Hormonal priming in females may also increase DA release in the MPOA, and copulatory activity may further increase DA levels in females. One of the intracellular effects of stimulation of DA D1 receptors in the MPOA of male rats may be increased expression of the immediate-early gene c-fos, which may mediate longer term responses to copulation. Furthermore, increased sexual experience led to increased immunoreactivity to Fos, the protein product of c-fos, following copulation to one ejaculation. Another intracellular mediator of DA’s effects, particularly in castrates, may be the phosphorylation of steroid receptors. Finally, while DA is facilitative to copulation, 5-HT is generally inhibitory. 5-HT is released in the LHA, but not in the MPOA, at the time of ejaculation. Increasing 5-HT in the LHA by microinjection of a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) increased the latency to begin copulating and also the latency to the first ejaculation, measured from the time the male first intromitted. These data may at least partially explain the decrease in libido and the anorgasmia of people taking SSRI antidepressants. One means by which LHA 5-HT decreases sexual motivation (i.e. increases the latency to begin copulating) may be by decreasing DA release in the NAcc, a major terminal of the mesolimbic system. Thus, reciprocal changes in DA and 5-HT release in different areas of the brain may promote copulation and sexual satiety, respectively. Publication Types: Review Review, tutorial PMID: 10553694, UI: 20019122 Note that a rise in T levels can overcome the effect of the AD. This shows us that the effect is identical to a drop in T. Also note, from above, that the inhibitted pathways are key to GnRH production and MAY cause a reduction of GnRH-LH-Testosterone. So – if someone SHOULD be treated by boosting their T levels, the use of ADs will make things worse in more than one way. === Now – does low T cause depression? The following points to a correlation. Note that the following article shows correlation and NOT causation sequence. So we can’t distinguish that depression triggered the low T or the low T triggered the depression. 1: J Affect Disord 1998 Mar;48(2-3):157-61 Testosterone replacement therapy for hypogonadal men with SSRI-refractory depression. Seidman SN, Rabkin JG Department of Psychiatry, College of Physicians and Surgeons of Columbia University, New York, NY 10032, USA. BACKGROUND: Testosterone replacement therapy is an effective treatment of some depressive symptoms in hypogonadal men, and may be an effective augmentation treatment for SSRI-refractory major depression in such men. METHODS: We treated five depressed men who had low testosterone levels and had not responded to an adequate SSRI trial with 400 mg testosterone replacement biweekly for 8 weeks. Four patients underwent single-blind placebo discontinuation. Patients were assessed at baseline and biweekly thereafter using the Hamilton Depression Rating Scale (HAM-D) and the Endicott Quality of Life Enjoyment and Satisfaction Scale (Q-LES-Q). RESULTS: Patients’ mean age was 40 years, and mean testosterone level 277 ng/dl. All had a rapid and dramatic recovery from major depression following testosterone augmentation: mean 21-item HAM-D decreased from 19.2 to 7.2 by week 2, and to 4.0 by week 8; mean Q-LES-Q increased from 45% to 68%. Three of four subjects who underwent discontinuation of testosterone under single-blind placebo treatment began to relapse. CONCLUSION: Testosterone replacement therapy may be an effective treatment of depressive symptoms in some men, and warrants further research. Publication Types: Clinical trial PMID: 9543205, UI: 98202206 We can see that the optimal treatment, in cases involving low T, was T replacement. They did not try to increase endogenous T production in this test, but that could have been used instead.    I speak on this subject firsthand. I was diagnosed with depression some years ago. One of the first things I asked my doc to do was to check my testosterone since my libido was, not surprisingly, also shot to hell. I was marginally "within" range, but low enough that my doc said he could "legally" give me injections to boost it. This did help my libido; I’ve been on TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) ever since. But it did NOT lift my depression. Very much to my disappointment. Eventually, I found I also needed an antidepressant. Your case may be entirely different, of course.

In your case the depression may have triggered the low T or the low T may have triggered the depression. Once triggered, a condition may not reverse when the original cause is corrected. You were lucky. If you had been treated for depression first the low libido would have been sloughed off as "a side-effect of the AD – live with it." I too was told that I was in the "normal" range and that I should see a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist kept trying to put me on medication to "see if it helped". No matter how hard I begged, I got nowhere. By the time I got the correct treatment it was too late. I had swollen to 700 pounds, my arthritis was at end stage, so bad that a layman can see the damage in the x-rays. That’s what happened because they treated the wrong thing first. My current psychiatrist, that I’m seeing because of pain/anger (pain induces adrenaline, which induces anger, which exacerbates pain. Feedback and pain meds are used to break the cycle) has said that he sees absolutely no signs of depression. Neither anger at my mistreatment nor unhappiness with my situation are depression that can be treated properly with anti-depressants.    I think seeing an endrocrinologist (and any other specialist you can afford) is a great idea as information is everything, but remember that once you start TRT, you are pretty much on it for good because whatever work your gonads are presently doing will halt (and they aren’t easy to restart). Consequently, your sperm count (not semen volume) goes way down as well, so you want to be reasonably certain that this isn’t a temporary hormonal imbalance caused by some virus or stress, dietary insufficiency, need for a major life change, etc.

The above is misleading and really disappointing, coming as it does from a regular participant. It is also irresponsibly misleading. TRT does NOT automatically do that. There are treatments that do not cause irreversible shutdown. 1. A short test run of 1-2 months will tell if TRT solves the    problem without irreversible shutdown. 2. If the LH is not elevated, signalling primary failure, then    life-style/diet changes can be tried, followed by selegiline,

… read more »

Response:

        Justaguy, it is impossible for ANYONE here to assure you that YOUR depressed mental state is caused by low testosterone levels and that upping it will fix you. What IS true, is that low testosterone CAN CAUSE lassitude, or depression. Period.         Much is being noted lately about a suspicious connection between depression and low testosterone, but which comes first??? Also, it may be true or NOT that antidepressants lower testosterone levels, OR it may be that the underlying chemistry of depression… or existing in a prolonged psychologically "low" mood does it. The answers are presently unknown and very cutting-edge, exciting science. To me at least.         I speak on this subject firsthand. I was diagnosed with depression some years ago. One of the first things I asked my doc to do was to check my testosterone since my libido was, not surprisingly, also shot to hell. I was marginally "within" range, but low enough that my doc said he could "legally" give me injections to boost it. This did help my libido; I’ve been on TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) ever since. But it did NOT lift my depression. Very much to my disappointment. Eventually, I found I also needed an antidepressant. Your case may be entirely different, of course.         I think seeing an endrocrinologist (and any other specialist you can afford) is a great idea as information is everything, but remember that once you start TRT, you are pretty much on it for good because whatever work your gonads are presently doing will halt (and they aren’t easy to restart). Consequently, your sperm count (not semen volume) goes way down as well, so you want to be reasonably certain that this isn’t a temporary hormonal imbalance caused by some virus or stress, dietary insufficiency, need for a major life change, etc.

Response:

Alec’s right – see an endocrinologist, get it looked at properly. Depression etc. will be caused by low T, not the other way around.

I vaguely recollect seeing some early evidence that certain antidepressants might suppress T levels, but this is a fairly distant and uncertain memory… Also, I wouldn’t be all that certain that depression couldn’t depress T levels… C//

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Yes in US, and it was 5.4 ng/dl *free* T, with a reference range of 5 – 40. Thanks everybody for the advice; I now have a much better idea of how to discuss this with my doc. Unfortunately it seems there is *not* a standardized method of measuring free T. I’m not talking about units, rather there are various lab techniques producing different values for a given sample. Free T is only valid against the ref range of the lab doing it. They call it "method specific". By contrast total T is standardized, e.g. 400 ng/dl means the same thing regardless of what lab did it. This is unfortunate. I saw in Medline a paper saying somebody ought to fix this someday so comparing free T values would be easier. Are you sure about the units for the T measurement? Are you in the USA or elsewhere? IIRC the USA unit is ng/dl, normal levels say 800-1000? In the UK nanomoles per litre is more common, normal range 25-30. (lab ref ranges much wider, so 5-40 doesn’t surprise me).

Before you buy.

Response:

Are you sure about the units for the T measurement? Are you in the USA or elsewhere? IIRC the USA unit is ng/dl, normal levels say 800-1000? In the UK nanomoles per litre is more common, normal range 25-30.  (lab ref ranges much wider, so 5-40 doesn’t surprise me). I measure 5.5 nmol/litre a year ago and that is exceptionally low, especially given that I’m only 30 years old.  It would be a poor score for a 100-year-old. Alec’s right – see an endocrinologist, get it looked at properly. Depression etc. will be caused by low T, not the other way around. Alan.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a healthy 42-yr old male, non-drinking, non-smoking, never used recreational drugs, do moderate exercise 3x week. No other medical history or problems, except a left varicocele. I eat a fairly low fat healthy diet (about 20% fat). During the previous 12 months I’ve had progressively diminishing libido, fatigue, anxiety, depression and irritability. No environmental or stress factors to cause this. I now have no libido, and about 50% ED. Prior to this I was normal and healthy in all respects. My blood tests are (sorry this is all I have): thyroid TSH: 2.51 iu/ml (0.47 – 6.03) AM serum free testosterone: 5.4 ng/dl (5.0 – 40.0) My family Dr. believes I have depression, referred me to a psychiatrist, and I’m now taking Wellbutrin (2 weeks now). I suggested maybe I have a hormone problem and maybe *that’s* causing my symptoms. He said no, my depression is probably causing my low T levels. He said my T level is only borderline low. He suggested I keep seeing the psychiatrist, and gave me some viagra. That helped the ED, but I had to force myself — just no sexual interest or drive at all, even on good days when I feel emotionally OK. Could my symptoms be caused by a low T level? Is 5.4 on a ref range of 5 – 40 low? How commonly does depression cause low T, vs low T cause depression? Should I have other blood tests like LH, FSH, etc.? Should I ask to see a urologist or endocrinologist? Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: alt.support.impotence I’m a healthy 42-yr old male, non-drinking, non-smoking, never used recreational drugs, do moderate exercise 3x week. No other medical history or problems, except a left varicocele. I eat a fairly low fat healthy diet (about 20% fat). During the previous 12 months I’ve had progressively diminishing libido, fatigue, anxiety, depression and irritability. No environmental or stress factors to cause this. I now have no libido, and about 50% ED. Prior to this I was normal and healthy in all respects. My blood tests are (sorry this is all I have): thyroid TSH: 2.51 iu/ml (0.47 – 6.03) AM serum free testosterone: 5.4 ng/dl (5.0 – 40.0) My family Dr. believes I have depression, referred me to a psychiatrist, and I’m now taking Wellbutrin (2 weeks now). I suggested maybe I have a hormone problem and maybe *that’s* causing my symptoms. He said no, my depression is probably causing my low T levels. He said my T level is only borderline low.

Nope! Low T causes depression and all of the other symptoms that you mentioned. There’s a PARTIAL list of symptoms caused by Low T or High Estrogen/Low T: http://medstuff.ftn.org/erectile-dysfunction/symptoms_T_E_RATIO_imbal… These are: Aging disorders, Alzheimer’s Syndrome, Androgen insensitivity, Anxiety and fear – general, Arthritis, Atherosclerosis, Bone mass decrease, Cognitive Dysfunction , Depression, Emotional breakdowns, Erectile dysfunction, Extreme irritability, Fatigue and less endurance for physical activity, Forgetfulness and difficult concentration, Gynecomastia, Heart disease – myopathy, Heart failure – Congestive, Hot Flashes, Hyperglycemia (hormonal diabetes), Inability to be assertive under stress, Inability to focus on work, Inability to maintain emotional equilibrium, Indecisiveness, Irritability, Loss of purpose and direction in life, Loss of self-confidence, Loss of will to live, Low Libido (Psychological and Physiological), Low Resistance to pain, Low blood oxygenation, Low stamina, Muscle soreness & stiffness , Muscle weakness (Muscle fibres actually tear), Obesity (Massive/Morbid), Osteoporosis, Panic Attacks, Passive/Aggressive reactions, Physical Shape Problems, Poor concentration/memory lapse, Psychological stress, Pulmonary Hypertension, Rage storms, Reading difficulty (small print), Sexual response skewing, Sexual symptoms, Short term memory loss, Skin thinning, Sleep disturbances, Slower injury and illness recovery, Systemic Hypertension, Thinning or loss of hair, Water retention (Oedemas) He suggested I keep seeing the psychiatrist, and gave me some viagra. That helped the ED, but I had to force myself — just no sexual interest or drive at all, even on good days when I feel emotionally OK. Could my symptoms be caused by a low T level? Is 5.4 on a ref range of 5 – 40 low? How commonly does depression cause low T, vs low T cause depression? Should I have other blood tests like LH, FSH, etc.? Should I ask to see a urologist or endocrinologist?

You need an endocrinologist. Preferably one that won’t be coached by your idiot. — *** http://medstuff.ftn.org – for the sake of your health *** *** http://www.ftn.org  Fight the creatures of The Night ****

Response:

I’m a healthy 42-yr old male, non-drinking, non-smoking, never used recreational drugs, do moderate exercise 3x week. No other medical history or problems, except a left varicocele. I eat a fairly low fat healthy diet (about 20% fat). During the previous 12 months I’ve had progressively diminishing libido, fatigue, anxiety, depression and irritability. No environmental or stress factors to cause this. I now have no libido, and about 50% ED. Prior to this I was normal and healthy in all respects. My blood tests are (sorry this is all I have): thyroid TSH: 2.51 iu/ml (0.47 – 6.03) AM serum free testosterone: 5.4 ng/dl (5.0 – 40.0) My family Dr. believes I have depression, referred me to a psychiatrist, and I’m now taking Wellbutrin (2 weeks now). I suggested maybe I have a hormone problem and maybe *that’s* causing my symptoms. He said no, my depression is probably causing my low T levels. He said my T level is only borderline low. He suggested I keep seeing the psychiatrist, and gave me some viagra. That helped the ED, but I had to force myself — just no sexual interest or drive at all, even on good days when I feel emotionally OK. Could my symptoms be caused by a low T level? Is 5.4 on a ref range of 5 – 40 low? How commonly does depression cause low T, vs low T cause depression? Should I have other blood tests like LH, FSH, etc.? Should I ask to see a urologist or endocrinologist? Before you buy.

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