Question:

Seizures are not convulsions–sometimes convulsions occur with seizures, other times not, depending on where the seizure occurs–some are undetectable unless one happens to be on an EEG at the time that the seizure occurs. How would you tell if you were having seizures, if you weren’t having convulsions?  What might that feel like?

Temporal lobe epilepsy can be hard to diagnose. Some things to look for: spacing out, lapses in consciousness, repetitive stereotyped motor movements (unintentional), frequent (more than a few times a year) deja vu, interpersonal clinginess, preoccupation with "spiritual," hyperverbal or hypergraphic, hyperemotional. None of these things alone necessarily signal seizures but…. It’s hard to diagnose because they often originate from the mesial (inside, proximal to the limbic system) surface of the temporal lobe. In order to be sensed by conventional EEG the electrical has to pass through brain tissue before hit hits the cortex and is often dissipated enough such that it’s hard to record. — When I examine myself and my methods of thought, I come to the conclusion that the gift of fantasy has meant more to me than any talent for abstract, positive thinking.                 Albert Einstein (1879-1955)                        Physicist http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

Response:

How would you tell if you were having seizures, if you weren’t having convulsions?  What might that feel like? http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000696.htm

Thanks, Chris!  The description on that page says, both for petit mal and atypical abscence seizures, that there are no consciousness changes, and no memory of the seizure, so unless someone else noticed that you were having them, you’d never know.  That’s a bit of an uncomfortable thought, isn’t it? Katherine

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How would you tell if you were having seizures, if you weren’t having convulsions?  What might that feel like? http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000696.htm Thanks, Chris!  The description on that page says, both for petit mal and atypical abscence seizures, that there are no consciousness changes, and no memory of the seizure, so unless someone else noticed that you were having them, you’d never know.  That’s a bit of an uncomfortable thought, isn’t it?

very uncomfortable. I know someone who had been in treatment for anxiety disorder for ages. I eventually got him to go for an EEG (neurologist thought I was imagining things). Not only were seizures found but he’d been having them so long that his right temporal horn had atrophied. And surprise, suprise, once the seizures were treated, his anxiety went away. — When I examine myself and my methods of thought, I come to the conclusion that the gift of fantasy has meant more to me than any talent for abstract, positive thinking.                 Albert Einstein (1879-1955)                        Physicist http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

Response:

Huh? NO, it is NOT one of those drugs you can "take in one go if you want"! I’ve got one of the GlaxoSmithKline pamphlets right here, and it says in part: "It is particularly important to administer WELLBUTRIN SR tablets in a manner most likely to minimize the risk of seizure (see WARNINGS)…" "The usual adult target dose for WELLBUTRIN SR Tablets is 300mg/day, given as 150mg twice daily. Dosing with WELLBUTRIN SR Tablets should begin at 150mg/day given as a single daily dose in the morning. If the 150mg initial dose is adequately tolerated, an increase to the 300mg/day target dose, given as 150mg twice daily, may be made as early as day 4 of dosing. There should be an interval of at least 8 hours between sucessive doses

<<… " There’s more, but essentially the pamphlet seems to warn that 200mg at one time is the strongest dose recommended taken at once, up to 400mg a day. Any more runs the risk of overdose – and in studies of the immediate-release version of bupropion, approximately ONE-THIRD of those who overdosed had seizures to some extent or another. They say they haven’t done adequate study on overdoses on the SR version. Barring that study and significantly different results, I’d say it’s FAR safer to assume the relatively HIGH risk of seizure is fairly equivalent across all release formulations of bupropion when taken in amounts exceeding recommendation. — Jon Quixote What is axiomatic frequently isn’t.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, Wellbutrin os one of the drugs you can take in one go if you want. I currently take 300mg in the morning and 100mg at night and it seems OK Howdy. I had a psychiatrist’s appointment yesterday.  I mentioned that I’d lost my health insurance and asked if I could switch to generic Prozac from celexa. After OKing this, he suggested I go with generic Wellbutrin as well. I have been taking Wellbutrin SR, 150mgs 2x a day.  I responded that I’d like to save the money, but didn’t like the idea of going on something that has to be taken several times a day, as the SR preparation of Wellbutrin is not available in a generic.  He responded that he was pretty sure I could take the whole dose of standard Wellbutrin once a day and not worry about it. Has anyone else tried this? Does taking standard Wellbutrin in one large dose a day work any differently than taking smaller doses several times a day?  How does the standard compare to the SR and XR?  For that matter, how does the generic compare to the name brand stuff? Anyone have any experience with this? thanks, VE This really doesn’t sound like a good idea.  The impetus for creating the SR version originally was that standard bupropion (which is what the generic is) caused seizures; although, it should be pointed out that this was at dosages of 600-900 mg/day.  The seizure issue had to do with how much and how fast the drug was absorbed, the seizures tending to occur fairly soon after the dose was taken and in greater frequency in people who were bulimic or anorexic.  If you want to take the generic, I think it’s probably ok, but I would definitely split the daily dosage into two or three parts. Two drug companies are currently trying to get their generic versions of Wellbutrin SR on the market; I believe the stuff is FDA approved but is being held up by litigation with GlaxoSmithKline.  One of the companies, Eon Labs, just had an injunction lifted by a Federal District Court and perhaps will finally get their drug into pharmacies. Todd

Response:

You CANNOT take more than  a MAXIMUM of 150mg of Wellbutrin any more often than once every four hours.  Taking more than 150mg at once leads to convulsions!  Your psychiatrist should know this.  Did you misunderstand?

Taking more than 150mg at once *can* lead to a seizure. I’ve spent six months taking 200 mg at once, then 100mg later, because I couldn’t manage to keep to a 3x a day schedule. I never had a problem. Oh… by the way. Some people will report that they used to regularly drink a six pack at the bar, and then drive home, and they never got in an accident, right? And that doesn’t mean it wasn’t criminally stupid, and it doesn’t mean they weren’t *damn* lucky to 1) be alive, and 2) not guilty of anyone else’s death. If anyone else drank a six pack and drove home, thinking "well, this other person did it, so it must be okay", you’d call that person "really, really stupid" if you were feeling charitable, right? Well, I hope the parallel here is obvious. I seriously recommend that people *DO NOT* do this. The risk of seizures is greatly reduced if you avoid dumping too much Wellbutrin into the bloodstream at any one time. But, if you took one 100mg standard release, and forgot you took it, and took another, I wouldn’t instantly induce vomiting, or anything. — Everything I needed to know in life I learned in Kindergarten.  Like: Beauty has a beginning, and an ending, but always lives beyond its span, in the hearts of many.

Response:

You CANNOT take more than  a MAXIMUM of 150mg of Wellbutrin any more often than once every four hours.  Taking more than 150mg at once leads to convulsions!  Your psychiatrist should know this.  Did you misunderstand? Taking more than 150mg at once *can* lead to a seizure. I’ve spent six months taking 200 mg at once, then 100mg later, because I couldn’t manage to keep to a 3x a day schedule. I never had a problem.

because you play russian roulette with your brain does not mean others..who perhaps value theirs more highly..should be encouraged to follow suit.. alcohol and bupropion are problematic as far as seizures go doses should NOT be doubled up if missed!!! all in all patients would be far better off following his doctors and pharmacists advice… after all..YOU are not going to be there if he has fits (which can result in permanent damage)..are you? — "Many people would sooner die than think;  In fact, they do so." (Bertrand Russell)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You CANNOT take more than  a MAXIMUM of 150mg of Wellbutrin any more often than once every four hours.  Taking more than 150mg at once leads to convulsions!  Your psychiatrist should know this.  Did you misunderstand? Taking more than 150mg at once *can* lead to a seizure. I’ve spent six months taking 200 mg at once, then 100mg later, because I couldn’t manage to keep to a 3x a day schedule. I never had a problem. Oh… by the way. Some people will report that they used to regularly drink a six pack at the bar, and then drive home, and they never got in an accident, right? And that doesn’t mean it wasn’t criminally stupid, and it doesn’t mean they weren’t *damn* lucky to 1) be alive, and 2) not guilty of anyone else’s death.

Some people’s alcohol tolerances are higher than mine or yours.  Some people’s livers are better.  Beer is mostly water not like liquor for sure.  I cannot say what is right for another person however I would not drink a six pack and think I could drive.  I’d wait a few hours after drinking two beers eating something and go home when I felt ok. Drinking soda and eating until the food balanced the alcohol and absorbed it so I could go home.  That’s just what I think is responsible behavior. If anyone else drank a six pack and drove home, thinking "well, this other person did it, so it must be okay", you’d call that person "really, really stupid" if you were feeling charitable, right? Well, I hope the parallel here is obvious. I seriously recommend that people *DO NOT* do this. The risk of seizures is greatly reduced if you avoid dumping too much Wellbutrin into the bloodstream at any one time. But, if you took one 100mg standard release, and forgot you took it, and took another, I wouldn’t instantly induce vomiting, or anything.

I don’t take wellbutrine I’ve had a seizure in my life so I cannot have any ever at all.  I cannot afford another seizure.  I can’t take wellbutrine at all because I might have a seizure. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Everything I needed to know in life I learned in Kindergarten.  Like: Beauty has a beginning, and an ending, but always lives beyond its span, in the hearts of many.

Response:

Howdy. I had a psychiatrist’s appointment yesterday.  I mentioned that I’d lost my health insurance and asked if I could switch to generic Prozac from celexa. After OKing this, he suggested I go with generic Wellbutrin as well.  I have been taking Wellbutrin SR, 150mgs 2x a day.  I responded that I’d like to save the money, but didn’t like the idea of going on something that has to be taken several times a day, as the SR preparation of Wellbutrin is not available in a generic.  He responded that he was pretty sure I could take the whole dose of standard Wellbutrin once a day and not worry about it.   Has anyone else tried this? Does taking standard Wellbutrin in one large dose a day work any differently than taking smaller doses several times a day?  How does the standard compare to the SR and XR?  For that matter, how does the generic compare to the name brand stuff? Anyone have any experience with this? thanks, VE — "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."       –Theodore Roosevelt

Response:

That sounds preety dodgy to me. Although I’m not exactly awear of the pharmacokinetics of wellbutrin(bupropion), one of the first things you learn as a pharmacologist is how alted dosing regiems effects blood concentration. If you take several pills at once, you will get a large increase in blood conetration, just after taking the pills, and then this concentration will drop off, until the next dosing. The idea of any dosing regiem is to get as steady a blood conentration as possible. BTW, I was under the impression that bupropion was taken twice daily. Thats not really that big a deal. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy. I had a psychiatrist’s appointment yesterday.  I mentioned that I’d lost my health insurance and asked if I could switch to generic Prozac from celexa. After OKing this, he suggested I go with generic Wellbutrin as well.  I have been taking Wellbutrin SR, 150mgs 2x a day.  I responded that I’d like to save the money, but didn’t like the idea of going on something that has to be taken several times a day, as the SR preparation of Wellbutrin is not available in a generic.  He responded that he was pretty sure I could take the whole dose of standard Wellbutrin once a day and not worry about it.   Has anyone else tried this? Does taking standard Wellbutrin in one large dose a day work any differently than taking smaller doses several times a day?  How does the standard compare to the SR and XR? For that matter, how does the generic compare to the name brand stuff? Anyone have any experience with this? thanks, VE

Response:

You CANNOT take more than  a MAXIMUM of 150mg of Wellbutrin any more often than once every four hours.  Taking more than 150mg at once leads to convulsions!  Your psychiatrist should know this.  Did you misunderstand? — DaveW

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy. I had a psychiatrist’s appointment yesterday.  I mentioned that I’d lost my health insurance and asked if I could switch to generic Prozac from celexa. After OKing this, he suggested I go with generic Wellbutrin as well.  I have been taking Wellbutrin SR, 150mgs 2x a day.  I responded that I’d like to save the money, but didn’t like the idea of going on something that has to be taken several times a day, as the SR preparation of Wellbutrin is not available in a generic.  He responded that he was pretty sure I could take the whole dose of standard Wellbutrin once a day and not worry about it. Has anyone else tried this? Does taking standard Wellbutrin in one large dose a day work any differently than taking smaller doses several times a day?  How does the standard compare to the SR and XR?  For that matter, how does the generic compare to the name brand stuff? Anyone have any experience with this? thanks, VE — "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."       –Theodore Roosevelt

Response:

Velvet Elvis said… I had a psychiatrist’s appointment yesterday.  I mentioned that I’d lost my health insurance and asked if I could switch to generic Prozac from celexa. After OKing this, he suggested I go with generic Wellbutrin as well.  I have been taking Wellbutrin SR, 150mgs 2x a day.  I responded that I’d like to save the money, but didn’t like the idea of going on something that has to be taken several times a day, as the SR preparation of Wellbutrin is not available in a generic.  He responded that he was pretty sure I could take the whole dose of standard Wellbutrin once a day and not worry about it.   Has anyone else tried this? Does taking standard Wellbutrin in one large dose a day work any differently than taking smaller doses several times a day?  How does the standard compare to the SR and XR?  For that matter, how does the generic compare to the name brand stuff?

I would think that you’d be overdosing if you took your entire daily dosage of standard Wellbutrin (not SR or XL) at one time. Otherwise, why would they bothered to have developed SR for twice a day and and XL for once a day. Casey

Response:

You CANNOT take more than  a MAXIMUM of 150mg of Wellbutrin any more often than once every four hours.  Taking more than 150mg at once leads to convulsions!  Your psychiatrist should know this.  Did you misunderstand?

Ummm Wellbutrin SR is in a dose higher than that. The delivery mechanism is different than in regular tablets.  As far as convulsions, bupropion is one of the worse in terms of lowering seizure threshold but most of the documented seizure activity was at (over) doses of around 2,000 miligrams — When I examine myself and my methods of thought, I come to the conclusion that the gift of fantasy has meant more to me than any talent for abstract, positive thinking.                 Albert Einstein (1879-1955)                        Physicist http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

Response:

Velvet Elvis said… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy. I had a psychiatrist’s appointment yesterday.  I mentioned that I’d lost my health insurance and asked if I could switch to generic Prozac from celexa. After OKing this, he suggested I go with generic Wellbutrin as well.  I have been taking Wellbutrin SR, 150mgs 2x a day.  I responded that I’d like to save the money, but didn’t like the idea of going on something that has to be taken several times a day, as the SR preparation of Wellbutrin is not available in a generic.  He responded that he was pretty sure I could take the whole dose of standard Wellbutrin once a day and not worry about it.   Has anyone else tried this? Does taking standard Wellbutrin in one large dose a day work any differently than taking smaller doses several times a day?  How does the standard compare to the SR and XR?  For that matter, how does the generic compare to the name brand stuff? Anyone have any experience with this? thanks, VE

I think your doctor got it wrong. I don’t think you should take the regular type of Wellbutrin all at once. Some people like the 3x a day style of Wellbutrin better. I would just take them 3x a day and live with it. You can take them with or without food, so I don’t see the problem.

Response:

You CANNOT take more than  a MAXIMUM of 150mg of Wellbutrin any more often than once every four hours.  Taking more than 150mg at once leads to convulsions!  Your psychiatrist should know this.  Did you misunderstand?

umm, this is an extremely overly cautious statement. The dosage at which convulsions were recorded was in the magnitude of 2,000 mg. 300 mg of bupropion in someone with a known seizure disorder isn’t a good idea (hell, 150 mg isn’t) but in the absence of a seizure disorder, it’s extremely improbable that it will induce a seizure. And his (?) psychiatrist does probably know that. — When I examine myself and my methods of thought, I come to the conclusion that the gift of fantasy has meant more to me than any talent for abstract, positive thinking.                 Albert Einstein (1879-1955)                        Physicist http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy. I had a psychiatrist’s appointment yesterday.  I mentioned that I’d lost my health insurance and asked if I could switch to generic Prozac from celexa. After OKing this, he suggested I go with generic Wellbutrin as well.  I have been taking Wellbutrin SR, 150mgs 2x a day.  I responded that I’d like to save the money, but didn’t like the idea of going on something that has to be taken several times a day, as the SR preparation of Wellbutrin is not available in a generic.  He responded that he was pretty sure I could take the whole dose of standard Wellbutrin once a day and not worry about it.   Has anyone else tried this? Does taking standard Wellbutrin in one large dose a day work any differently than taking smaller doses several times a day?  How does the standard compare to the SR and XR?  For that matter, how does the generic compare to the name brand stuff? Anyone have any experience with this? thanks, VE

This really doesn’t sound like a good idea.  The impetus for creating the SR version originally was that standard bupropion (which is what the generic is) caused seizures; although, it should be pointed out that this was at dosages of 600-900 mg/day.  The seizure issue had to do with how much and how fast the drug was absorbed, the seizures tending to occur fairly soon after the dose was taken and in greater frequency in people who were bulimic or anorexic.  If you want to take the generic, I think it’s probably ok, but I would definitely split the daily dosage into two or three parts. Two drug companies are currently trying to get their generic versions of Wellbutrin SR on the market; I believe the stuff is FDA approved but is being held up by litigation with GlaxoSmithKline.  One of the companies, Eon Labs, just had an injunction lifted by a Federal District Court and perhaps will finally get their drug into pharmacies. Todd

Response:

You CANNOT take more than  a MAXIMUM of 150mg of Wellbutrin any more often than once every four hours.  Taking more than 150mg at once leads to convulsions!  Your psychiatrist should know this.  Did you misunderstand? umm, this is an extremely overly cautious statement. The dosage at which convulsions were recorded was in the magnitude of 2,000 mg. 300 mg of bupropion in someone with a known seizure disorder isn’t a good idea (hell, 150 mg isn’t) but in the absence of a seizure disorder, it’s extremely improbable that it will induce a seizure. And his (?) psychiatrist does probably know that.

If this is the same DaveW that I’ve seen on other groups I can’t figure out if he’s a fourth-rate troll or just a garden variety ignoramus.  I’ve _never_ seen him get anything right. Wellbutrin lowers the seizure threshold.  The limit value was set based on clinical trials to a level that minimized the number of individuals in whom seizures would occur.  Some very small percentage of individuals will experience seizures at the limit dosage, others won’t at considerably higher dosages.  Seizures are not convulsions–sometimes convulsions occur with seizures, other times not, depending on where the seizure occurs–some are undetectable unless one happens to be on an EEG at the time that the seizure occurs. — –John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Response:

I take standard Wellbutrin 3 times a day, and I have missed a dose before. Like an idiot I took the dose I missed with the next dose, and got some real stomach trouble in return. Extended release and timed release tablets are a days dose you take in one pill. The coating on an SR/XR has different thicknesses for each dose of medication in the pill. If the pill has 3 doses, the coating on 1/3 of the pill dissolves when you take it, the coating on the next dose, takes 4 hours to dissolve, and the last dose takes 8 hours to dissolve and start working. Even though an SR/XR is more than one dose, you only get one dose at a time from it. Most of the time an SR/XR has been introduced to the market, so the manufacture can renew there patent on the medication, preventing anyone from producing it in a generic. DjD

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy. I had a psychiatrist’s appointment yesterday.  I mentioned that I’d lost my health insurance and asked if I could switch to generic Prozac from celexa. After OKing this, he suggested I go with generic Wellbutrin as well.  I have been taking Wellbutrin SR, 150mgs 2x a day.  I responded that I’d like to save the money, but didn’t like the idea of going on something that has to be taken several times a day, as the SR preparation of Wellbutrin is not available in a generic.  He responded that he was pretty sure I could take the whole dose of standard Wellbutrin once a day and not worry about it. Has anyone else tried this? Does taking standard Wellbutrin in one large dose a day work any differently than taking smaller doses several times a day?  How does the standard compare to the SR and XR?  For that matter, how does the generic compare to the name brand stuff? Anyone have any experience with this? thanks, VE — "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."       –Theodore Roosevelt

Response:

I take standard 150mg Wellbutrin, and 30mgs of Dexedrine, 3 times a day. I also take 1200mgs of Lithium a day, for rapid cycling bipolar disorder, on top of my ADD. I have a seizure disorder, and take high doses of Wellbutrin and Dexedrine, and they haven’t caused me any seizer trouble. DjD

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You CANNOT take more than  a MAXIMUM of 150mg of Wellbutrin any more often than once every four hours.  Taking more than 150mg at once leads to convulsions!  Your psychiatrist should know this.  Did you misunderstand? umm, this is an extremely overly cautious statement. The dosage at which convulsions were recorded was in the magnitude of 2,000 mg. 300 mg of bupropion in someone with a known seizure disorder isn’t a good idea (hell, 150 mg isn’t) but in the absence of a seizure disorder, it’s extremely improbable that it will induce a seizure. And his (?) psychiatrist does probably know that. — When I examine myself and my methods of thought, I come to the conclusion that the gift of fantasy has meant more to me than any talent for abstract, positive thinking.                 Albert Einstein (1879-1955)                        Physicist http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

Response:

Seizures are not convulsions–sometimes convulsions occur with seizures, other times not, depending on where the seizure occurs–some are undetectable unless one happens to be on an EEG at the time that the seizure occurs.

How would you tell if you were having seizures, if you weren’t having convulsions?  What might that feel like? Katherine

Response:

Seizures are not convulsions–sometimes convulsions occur with seizures, other times not, depending on where the seizure occurs–some are undetectable unless one happens to be on an EEG at the time that the seizure occurs. How would you tell if you were having seizures, if you weren’t having convulsions?  What might that feel like? Katherine

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000696.htm

Response:

Actually, Wellbutrin os one of the drugs you can take in one go if you want. I currently take 300mg in the morning and 100mg at night and it seems OK

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy. I had a psychiatrist’s appointment yesterday.  I mentioned that I’d lost my health insurance and asked if I could switch to generic Prozac from celexa. After OKing this, he suggested I go with generic Wellbutrin as well.  I have been taking Wellbutrin SR, 150mgs 2x a day.  I responded that I’d like to save the money, but didn’t like the idea of going on something that has to be taken several times a day, as the SR preparation of Wellbutrin is not available in a generic.  He responded that he was pretty sure I could take the whole dose of standard Wellbutrin once a day and not worry about it. Has anyone else tried this? Does taking standard Wellbutrin in one large dose a day work any differently than taking smaller doses several times a day?  How does the standard compare to the SR and XR?  For that matter, how does the generic compare to the name brand stuff? Anyone have any experience with this? thanks, VE This really doesn’t sound like a good idea.  The impetus for creating the SR version originally was that standard bupropion (which is what the generic is) caused seizures; although, it should be pointed out that this was at dosages of 600-900 mg/day.  The seizure issue had to do with how much and how fast the drug was absorbed, the seizures tending to occur fairly soon after the dose was taken and in greater frequency in people who were bulimic or anorexic.  If you want to take the generic, I think it’s probably ok, but I would definitely split the daily dosage into two or three parts. Two drug companies are currently trying to get their generic versions of Wellbutrin SR on the market; I believe the stuff is FDA approved but is being held up by litigation with GlaxoSmithKline.  One of the companies, Eon Labs, just had an injunction lifted by a Federal District Court and perhaps will finally get their drug into pharmacies. Todd

Response:

Question:

its not supposed to make you drowsy but i get sleepy/drousy as hell. is it just me or have others had similar effects?

No such drug in the UK.  What’s the generic name? ========

Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========

Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html

 food intolerance data & recipes,

Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

Response:

Peoples’ reactions to antihistamines are hugely varied it seems to me.  They all make me feel really ill apart from Zirtek, and then only the brand – the generic makes me feel terrible.  But some people get very sleepy with this one too, which is also not supposed to cross the blood-brain barrier. " hippo" <" hippo"@nomospam.com

wrote in message

news:xTjEb.423020$ao4.1356729@attbi_s51… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

never brain injury or vescular disorders.   i never knew that blood/brain barrier was dynamic.    does it vary from person to person as to what gets through it?

Response:

its not supposed to make you drowsy but i   get sleepy/drousy as hell.   is it just me or have others had similar effects? hippa

Response:

its not supposed to make you drowsy but i get sleepy/drousy as hell. is it just me or have others had similar effects? No such drug in the UK.  What’s the generic name? fexofenadine hcl

Okay, Telfast here.  The British National Formulary says the incidence of sedation is low but doesn’t imply it’s zero. The reason it’s supposed to be non-sedating is because it doesn’t cross the blood-brain barrier.  Maybe your blood-brain barrier isn’t as much of a barrier as it should be?  Have you had head injury or blood vessel disease? ========

Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========

Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html

 food intolerance data & recipes,

Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

Response:

Not unusual.  Not everyone gets the upper effect from uppers. " hippo" <" hippo"@nomospam.com

wrote in message

news:OHHDb.369865$Dw6.1208110@attbi_s02… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

its not supposed to make you drowsy but i   get sleepy/drousy as hell.   is it just me or have others had similar effects? hippa

Response:

bogus address wrote:

   Maybe your blood-brain barrier isn’t as much

of a barrier as it should be?  Have you had head injury or blood vessel disease?

never brain injury or vescular disorders.   i never knew that blood/brain barrier was dynamic.    does it vary from person to person as to what gets through it?

Response:

fexofenadine hcl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -bogus address wrote:

its not supposed to make you drowsy but i get sleepy/drousy as hell. is it just me or have others had similar effects? No such drug in the UK.  What’s the generic name? ======== Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <======== Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html  food intolerance data & recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

Response:

Question:

What Are The Generic Viagra Available? Right now in the market, there’re two popular and effective form of generic Viagra available at very inexpensive prices… Caverta and Veega. Both brands of generic Viagra contain Sildenafil Citrate, the exact same active ingredient found in Viagra. In the past, I am concern about the safety of generic Viagra and hence refrain from recommending them to my readers. But 3 months ago, at the urging of a friend of mine, working as a researcher in the pharmaceutical industry, I tried out Caverta and Veega. This two brands of generic Viagra are manufactured under strict World Health Organization (WHO) guidelines and standards. So they’re perfectly safe. And to my surprise, they work really well. Price wise, they’re 60% cheaper than Viagra! Both Caverta and Veega are available from World Express Rx. An international online pharmacy with offices in US, London, Tokyo and Sidney. Click here for more info – http://www.2-buy-cheap-viagra-online.com/Generic Viagra.html

Response:

Viagra is just a fancy (registered, protected) name for Sildenafil Citrate. If you can buy Sildenafil Citrate then you’re buying the same efficacy as Viagra but not paying the patent license markup. The quality of the Sildenafil Citrate is what’s important. So if it’s coming from a reliable pharmaceutical company, I wouldn’t worry.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What Are The Generic Viagra Available? Right now in the market, there’re two popular and effective form of generic Viagra available at very inexpensive prices… Caverta and Veega. Both brands of generic Viagra contain Sildenafil Citrate, the exact same active ingredient found in Viagra. In the past, I am concern about the safety of generic Viagra and hence refrain from recommending them to my readers. But 3 months ago, at the urging of a friend of mine, working as a researcher in the pharmaceutical industry, I tried out Caverta and Veega. This two brands of generic Viagra are manufactured under strict World Health Organization (WHO) guidelines and standards. So they’re perfectly safe. And to my surprise, they work really well. Price wise, they’re 60% cheaper than Viagra! Both Caverta and Veega are available from World Express Rx. An international online pharmacy with offices in US, London, Tokyo and Sidney. Click here for more info – http://www.2-buy-cheap-viagra-online.com/Generic Viagra.html

Response:

Nope, that doesn’t work either.  Try going to the main site http://www.2-buy-cheap-viagra-online.com and scroll down to the Generic Viagra link. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There apparently is something wrong with the url address that Daphne showed.  I get the "Not found" error message when I click on it. However, if I add %20Viagra.html at the end, it works. http://www.2-buy-cheap-viagra-online.com/Generic%20Viagra.html Click here for more info – http://www.2-buy-cheap-viagra-online.com/Generic Viagra.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nope, that doesn’t work either.  Try going to the main site http://www.2-buy-cheap-viagra-online.com and scroll down to the Generic Viagra link. There apparently is something wrong with the url address that Daphne showed.  I get the "Not found" error message when I click on it. However, if I add %20Viagra.html at the end, it works. http://www.2-buy-cheap-viagra-online.com/Generic%20Viagra.html Click here for more info – http://www.2-buy-cheap-viagra-online.com/Generic Viagra.html —

Sorry guys for the broken link…. below is the correct one. http://www.2-buy-cheap-viagra-online.com/Generic%20Viagra.html

Response:

I have just tried a half generic Viagra for the first time,  having had intermittent ED for the last six months or so.  I am 70 and not on any medication,  though I do have a history of occasional heart rhythm irregularities.   So I was a bit nervous about trying the V. but needs be when the devil drives.  I chewed the bit of pill up and washed it down with a little water about 45 minutes before bedtime. Thankfully  there were no side effects at all;  possibly a very slight headache and a warm face, but these could have just as easily been the side effects of all the action which I am very happy to say was the result of this small dose.   The contribution made by Pizer to the happiness of the human race is considerable in my view. Cedo

Response:

Pardon my ignorance, but wouldn’t this generic Viagra have the exact same side effects a those caused by the "Blue" pill? Cheers, Alexander

Response:

I have just tried a half generic Viagra for the first time,  having had intermittent ED for the last six months or so.  I am 70 and not on any medication,  though I do have a history of occasional heart rhythm irregularities.   So I was a bit nervous about trying the V. but needs be when the devil drives.  I chewed the bit of pill up and washed it down with a little water about 45 minutes before bedtime. Thankfully  there were no side effects at all;  possibly a very slight headache and a warm face, but these could have just as easily been the side effects of all the action which I am very happy to say was the result of this small dose.   The contribution made by Pizer to the happiness of the human race is considerable in my view. Cedo

Pizer just got lucky they discovered Viagra’s effect on the male organ totally by accident whilst working on Heart Medication. Thank the Human Test Subjects that happened to report these side effects.

Response:

Question:

Okay, this is probably just a brain fart and way off-topic, but what the hell… You know how animals have a certain name, and then the male and female each have a different name? Like human beings are divided into females called women, and males called men.  Deer are divided into females called does and males called bucks.  Horses are divided into females called mares and males called stallions.

and geldings are male horses that have been castrated. How are cows divided?  Cow refers to a female, and bull refers to a male, but what is the generic term for the animal?  Bovine?

Not sure exactly what you’re asking. Cattle Terms Bull – male Calf – young male or female Cow – female who has borne a calf Dry Cow – cow not giving milk Fresh Cow – a cow just having borne a calf and now giving milk Heifer – young cow who has not borne a calf Ruminant – animal that has a stomach with four different sections. This type of animal can eat hay, grass, and hard to digest feeds that other animals cannot. Beef and Dairy cattle are ruminants. Veal Calf  - A calf sold for meat when 4 to 8 weeks old Is Cattle the word you’re looking for? On a similar note, why does the English language do such a poor job of continuity when it comes to the plural of animal names?  For instance, you have one goose and several geese.  Therefore shouldn’t we have one moose and several meece?  No, we are supposed to say mooses.

We just say moose Then we have one mouse and several mice.  Why not say meece? Or mouses?

*shrugs* And what about fish?  You can have one fish or several fish, but it isn’t incorrect to say fishes.  Why not one fish and several feesh?

Rj

Response:

Okay, this is probably just a brain fart and way off-topic, but what the hell… You know how animals have a certain name, and then the male and female each have a different name?

<snip On a similar note, why does the English language do such a poor job of continuity when it comes to the plural of animal names?  For instance, you have one goose and several geese.  Therefore shouldn’t we have one moose and several meece?  No, we are supposed to say mooses.

Indeed the language would be much easier to learn if the plural forms all followed the same form. But languages which have developed over very long periods of time tend to have many deviants from the otherwise consistent grammar – if that made any sense.. Languages which have assumed a written form only fairly recently generally have a more structured grammar, take for example finnish (First writing in the middle of the 19th century, if I remember correctly). Then we have one mouse and several mice.  Why not say meece? Or mouses?

Maybe because it is easier to pronouce? Just guessing here.. And what about fish?  You can have one fish or several fish, but it isn’t incorrect to say fishes.  Why not one fish and several feesh?

I like to use the form ‘fishies’.. sounds funny.. : ) But then again english is not my first language.. — The one and only Dragon – so far.. Kun en t

Question:

Hi, I have been on metformin for 2 1/2 years and only now was switched to generic metformin from regular Glucophage.  I am curious if anyone here has also switched, and if they have noticed a difference.  I am on the same dosage as before, but darned if I didn’t spend half the day in the bathroom today.  It reminds me of when I first started out on metformin!  Is this generic pill more readily absorbed? Anyone have any information about the generic stuff? TIa, Beth

Response:

I don’t, but keep me informed. I’m supposed to attempt to go back on it. Maybe the diabetes group would know? Victoria "mickbeth" <mickb…@wegrokit.com

wrote in message

news:8c917378.0202031834.211da082@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hi, I have been on metformin for 2 1/2 years and only now was switched to generic metformin from regular Glucophage.  I am curious if anyone here has also switched, and if they have noticed a difference.  I am on the same dosage as before, but darned if I didn’t spend half the day in the bathroom today.  It reminds me of when I first started out on metformin!  Is this generic pill more readily absorbed? Anyone have any information about the generic stuff? TIa, Beth

Response:

Victoria <nicholl…@cox.net

wrote in message

news:f1Z78.253$n27.43689@news1.east.cox.net…

I don’t, but keep me informed. I’m supposed to attempt to go back on it.

Maybe

the diabetes group would know?

Victoria, I did ask at alt.support.diabetes, and the responses were that it could be a different reaction to fillers and another woman noted that her husband reacted differently to it from the Glucophage XR he had been taking. I have been hearing from time to time that XR sometimes doesn’t work so well.  Any opinions? I have also heard from women who couldn’t get past the GI complaints that XR was excellent for that purpose. Beth

Response:

Beth, Whatever you find out I would be interested to know. Thanks Shelley

Response:

Shelley C. Kluz <ltlover…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20020208053753.18295.00000099@mb-cb.aol.com…

Beth, Whatever you find out I would be interested to know.

Hi Shelley!  Well, basically, I have found out that generic metformin works better in me, seems to work better in some people because it may have different fillers, and is loads cheaper than Glucophage.  For me this  just means a $2 co-payment rather than a $7 co-payment.  The pills I am now getting are ablong and bulkier, and not so easy to fit into a pill box. I recall that you had PCOS cysts come back while you were taking Glucophage. Mine have, too, although I still ovulate.  Did your doctor ever tell you anything, or did you ever learn elsewhere why this happens?  TIA. Beth

Response:

Beth- What is the generic called?  I thought the generic of met was glucophage.  Just wondering.  Thanks!

Response:

Generic is metaformin, brand is glucophage. Jen "Heather Black" <hedie…@webtv.net

wrote in message

news:13943-3C6495F4-111@storefull-2253.public.lawson.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Beth- What is the generic called?  I thought the generic of met was glucophage.  Just wondering.  Thanks!

Response:

Heather Black <hedie…@webtv.net

wrote in message

news:13943-3C6495F4-111@storefull-2253.public.lawson.webtv.net…

Beth- What is the generic called?  I thought the generic of met was glucophage.  Just wondering.  Thanks!

Just "metformin hydrochloride." Beth – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I recall that you had PCOS cysts come back while you were taking Glucophage. Mine have, too, although I still ovulate.  Did your doctor ever tell you anything, or did you ever learn elsewhere why this happens?  TIA.

No I never found out why. I should ask at my upcoming appt! The second time around taking Met I don’t think I have ovulated at all with the exception of maybe this month. ( I had some signs of ovulation but I am not sure if I actually did) I *know* I have cysts though on both ovaries right now. I am in lots of pain. This happened though the first time I started it a few months after…I chalked it up to my ovaries awakening from their slumber LOL I will let you know what I find out. Thanks for your info regarding the generic Met Shelley

Response:

Is the  Glucophage XR also generic now? Karen

Response:

Karen <ka…@ancientfaith.com

wrote in message

news:vkw98.1260$k5.797941@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com…

Is the  Glucophage XR also generic now?

Good question.  I suspect not, as it just came out a little while ago.  I think it’s Bristol Myers Squibb’s bid to still provide an exclusive form of metformin, since they knew generic metformin would soon hit the market.  I remember getting several coupons from them last year urging me to switch to XR. Beth

Response:

Shelley C. Kluz <ltlover…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20020210045908.20149.00000508@mb-cs.aol.com…

I will let you know what I find out.

Thanks.  The one time I asked an RE about erosion of metformin’s effects, he knew nothing about it.  But it happens.  It’s why I asked to have my dosage increased to 2,000 mg. a day.  That worked for a while but the effects seem to be easing off at times, especially since my last miscarriage. Frustrating! Beth

Response:

Beth wrote:

Karen <ka…@ancientfaith.com wrote in message news:vkw98.1260$k5.797941@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com… Is the  Glucophage XR also generic now? Good question.  I suspect not, as it just came out a little while ago.  I think it’s Bristol Myers Squibb’s bid to still provide an exclusive form of metformin, since they knew generic metformin would soon hit the market.  I remember getting several coupons from them last year urging me to switch to XR.

Actually it is. Someone announced it on one of the lists I’m am member of (www.pcolist.org) just the other day.

Response:

The one time I asked an RE about erosion of metformin’s effects, he knew nothing about it.  But it happens.  It’s why I asked to have my dosage increased to 2,000 mg. a day.  That worked for a while but the effects seem to be easing off at times,

Yes it does happen! It proved less effective over time. I noticed positive effects (i.e. ovulating, weight loss etc.) for about 4-6 months then I stopped ovulating and my cycles got crazy again. I was at 1500 mg. I still am now at 1500mg but my dr. said I shouldn’t go any higher because it’s not necessary. I DID take a break from it for about a year and was hoping once I started it again it would work better but no dice so far. Hopefully this month I did ovulate but I don’t know for sure. This is another question I am going to ask about!! and yes it’s very frustrating!! Best of luck this month Beth!! Shelley

Response:

Boy I always thought that glucophage was the generic for metformin. Normally the pharmisits always gave me the cheapest stuff. (so I thought)  What a bum deal here I was paying 60.00 a month! Heather

Response:

Question:

My doctor gave me a prescription for Prozac but when I picked it up from the pharmacy, I found out it was the generic version.  Is there any difference?

Unless a prescription contains the "DAW" (Dispense As Written) acronym – sometimes there is a check-box – the pharmacy has the discretion to dispense the generic form instead.  If the doc indicates "DAW" then it has to be the name brand. As you might guess, the major drug companies try to push the docs toward DAW, the insurance providers push them against it. Any number of manufacturers may produce the generic.  The function of the active ingredient, in this case fluoxetine, should be the same.  Some of the inactive ingredients, and the appearance of the pill, may vary by manufacturer.

Response:

My doctor gave me a prescription for Prozac but when I picked it up from the pharmacy, I found out it was the generic version.  Is there any difference? Also, I want to make sure I have the right pill, what is the # on the pill? 877? What does it look like?  Do I swallow the whole pill or do I open it or break it? Thanks for your help.

Response:

My doctor gave me a prescription for Prozac but when I picked it up from the pharmacy, I found out it was the generic version.  Is there any difference? Also, I want to make sure I have the right pill, what is the # on the pill? 877? What does it look like?  Do I swallow the whole pill or do I open it or break it? Thanks for your help.

In many US states, pharmacists are allowed to give you the generic version of a medication unless your doctor specifies that the brand is medically necessary. It certainly saves you a lot of money. Some of the non-active ingredients (like the gel coating) may be a little different, but the active ingredients are exactly the same as brand-name Prozac. I don’t know what they look like, but I know there’s a book you can look in that has photos and descriptions of pills. Sorry that I can’t recall what it’s called, but I’ve used it in the bookstore. Swallow the pill whole unless your prescription calls for a partial pill. Just follow your doctor’s instructions, which also appear on the label of the pill bottle. And welcome to the world of antidepressant medication! Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

Response:

Question:

Hi. I am 33 year old man from Iceland. Been depressed more or less since the age of 12.  I have been taking Remeron now for a week. I have tried all the other drugs but they don

Question:

Hi all, im new here, and also new to piercing. I got my 1st one last saturday.  my bottom lip, in the middle, with a bcr. anyway, the reason for my post is that im confused and i was refered here from AGF (alt.gothic.fashion) as thy said u know more than them about piercings. i have been told 2 different things by friends – one said dont turn the piercing and let it all heal before moving it – the other said turn it in my lip while the healing process is still going on. which is right and why?  in addition, im just wondering if u could tell me when it will stop being sore every time its touched. its not painful, its just sorta irritating. thanks ever so much for your help -~=*ToM*=~- How does Fred Durst change a lightbulb? He dosen’t, he just thinks the sun shines out his ass!

Response:

Tom -5- schrieb: anyway, the reason for my post is that im confused and i was refered here from AGF (alt.gothic.fashion) as thy said u know more than them about piercings. i have been told 2 different things by friends – one said dont turn the piercing and let it all heal before moving it – the other said turn it in my lip while the healing process is still going on.

Ask yourself this: When you have a scraped knee for eample, do you pick off the scab every day and scrub the wound? Or do you leave it alone and wait for the scab to fall off? There is no reason for turning the ring. There is nothing inside the wound that needs to be vigorously removed. In fact, you increase the chance of getting dirt *in* the wound by turning the ring. All I’d do is soak the crusties (salt water, or just in the shower) and remove them using a q-tip twice a day, because if your ring does move for siome reason, the crusts can tear the edges of the wound or get turned inside the piercing, which hurts and can transport dirt into your piercing. Nina — http://chaotropic.net C’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot.                         Louis Pasteur

Response:

Hi all, im new here, and also new to piercing. I got my 1st one last saturday.  my bottom lip, in the middle, with a bcr. anyway, the reason for my post is that im confused and i was refered here from AGF (alt.gothic.fashion) as thy said u know more than them about piercings.

Oops.  I didn’t mean for you to come re-ask the question, I just told you that for future reference.  Guess it doesn’t really matter anyway, since we told you the same thing Nina did anyhow. — ~Nikki <insert witty sig here http://www.leastcomplicated.com/sobriquet

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, im new here, and also new to piercing. I got my 1st one last saturday.  my bottom lip, in the middle, with a bcr. anyway, the reason for my post is that im confused and i was refered here from AGF (alt.gothic.fashion) as thy said u know more than them about piercings. Oops.  I didn’t mean for you to come re-ask the question, I just told you that for future reference.  Guess it doesn’t really matter anyway, since we told you the same thing Nina did anyhow.

I wasnt by any means disregarding the info from AGF, but its always best to get a lot of opinions then see what you make of them all.  Hope theres no offence caused here.  I appreciate all help given Thanks all, -Tom  8

Question:

Why a second layer of sheetrock?  Cause I think that very low frequencies are still coming through.  Not music, but footsteps.  More mass seems like a good idea.

The mass law rules on air borne noise.  But you’re talking about structurally-borne noise and the rule there is, "the thigh bone’s connected to the knee bone".  The top plates in your walls are attached to the floor joists upstairs, directly or indirectly, which are attached to the wall studs. That’s why you hear it  when someone drops something heavy three floors above you.  The noise isn’t coming just from the ceiling but from the walls around you and the floor under you.  To stop that resonance, you have to mechanically break the path of that energy. It goes without saying that structural noise is very difficult to retrofix except at the source.  I’ve done it with recording studios but that required floating an eight-inch reinforced slab on isolators and essentially building a box within a box with absolutely no hard physical connections between them.  Not even BX.

Response:

You will lose much of the sound deadening potential if the two layers of drywall are in contact.  It would be better to have a dead space between the two layers.  I would use a couple of layers of 1/8" ethafoam packing material as a spacer and longer dry wall screws to secure the second layer of drywall.

Which will only short circuit the intended purpose of the second layer of drywall.  A drywall screw… just one… driven between two isolated panels connects them acoustically.  It’s like listening through a wall using a paper cup. Also, resilient channels are intended to hold a designed weight.  They absorb sound by deflection, burning it up as mechanical energy.  In other words, there’s a working range between X and Y where they are effective.  Too little and the wall is too stiff to move; too much and there’s no deflection. What the author is most likely dealing with is structural-born noise. Insulation and standard dropped ceilings will be largely ineffective against it. 4.  Attack the source of the sound.

By far the best advice.

Response:

Another surface, parallel and behind this surface, will couple to it through the air trapped between acting like a fluid which will couple the movement quite well at low frequencies.

Thanks for your thoughtful advice. This is similar to the effect you get with an ear plug or headphones–if you break the seal between the ear plug and the ear canal you will notice a drastic reduction in volume, but with a good seal the speaker diaphragm moves and the trapped air causes the ear drum to move by the air acting like a non-compressible fluid.

Have I understood this last paragraph correctly? If you BREAK the seal you will notice a REDUCTION in volume? That means that an "air tight" seal is not as good as an "open" seal !  If true, what about the generic sound proofing advice to "caulk everywhere and fill all tiny openings"? On the other hand, I think I have noticed this wearing headphones that cover the entire ear.  Some external sounds are perceived as being louder with the headphones!  A resonant cavity has been created, I guess.

Response:

You will lose much of the sound deadening potential if the two layers of drywall are in contact.  It would be better to have a dead space between the two layers.  I would use a couple of layers of 1/8" ethafoam packing material as a spacer and longer dry wall screws to secure the second layer of drywall.

If I did want to completely isolate the two layers of sheetrock from each other, how would the packing material help?  There would still be the screws to transmit vibration. If the major issue is low frequency thumps and rumbles I’m afraid you will see little benefit regardless of your best efforts.  The solution to this type of sound problem is expensive and requires more expertise than many contractors have.  Even if you reduce the sound level by half you will hardly be notice any improvement.

I suspect you are right. I should say, after doing the walls and ceiling in my apt. I am about 95% satisfied.  I just thought I’d try for the last 5%. But getting the last 5% would probably cost more than the 95%! Thanks again.

Response:

Have I understood this last paragraph correctly? If you BREAK the seal you will notice a REDUCTION in volume? That means that an "air tight" seal is not as good as an "open" seal !  If true, what about the generic sound proofing advice to "caulk everywhere and fill all tiny openings"?

In theory.  In reality, there’s no such thing as an airtight wall (at least not outside a lab) and it’s not really air pressure that acoustically couples two parallel walls.  It’s resonance. If you’ve seen a sound studio, you probably noticed that it had large, plate glass windows between the control room and studio. You probably also noticed that they were in pairs.  Since sheet glass vibrates a lot more readily than Type X sheetrock you might wonder how this could work. What is less obvious is how those windows were constructed.  First, the two windows are each mounted on separate walls so there’s no mechanical connection between them.  Second, the interior surround is compressed fiberglass to let the cavity breathe.  It’s usually wrapped in a nonreflective, acoustically porous fabric.  This is necessary not only to equalize pressure in the cavity but to keep the windows from fogging up.  Third… and here’s where it gets trick… the glass panels are of differing thicknesses.  You don’t want them to be even multiples of one another either, like 1/4" and 1/2", because they’ll couple at the first harmonic.  Something like 7/16" and 5/16" works better.  Fourth, the panes are angled away from each other to reduce standing waves in the cavity.  Standing waves are the biggest issue in reducing resonance. This technique is also used in the construction of studio walls.  You want sound to hit a surface at an angle so it doesn’t resonate between two parallel planes, creating a standing wave.  You’ll see this construction in movie theatres too.

Response:

Have I understood this last paragraph correctly? If you BREAK the seal you will notice a REDUCTION in volume? That means that an "air tight" seal is not as good as an "open" seal !  If true, what about the generic sound proofing advice to "caulk everywhere and fill all tiny openings"?

There are unfortunately some trade offs involved.  The trapped air at low frequencies allow the two parallel surfaces to act like one, thus efficiently transmitting the movement across the air gap, but providing unsealed openings provides and even better path for the sound.  As to the example with the ear plug I was just illustrating the fluid coupling effect to show how two surfaces with trapped air between can act as one.  The same effect can be heard from the radio in your car when you roll down the windows–the volume (particularly at the low end) drops off significantly. With the car sealed the speaker can compress and rarefy the air in the car and you ear diaphragm moves accordingly which allows a rather modest sized speaker to sound like a 12" woofer in a large open area. Multiple layers of elastically suspended high mass material separated by acoustically absorbing material gives the greatest benefit with the first two layers. Additional layers provide declining benefit. Regards, John

Response:

. If I did want to completely isolate the two layers of sheetrock from each other, how would the packing material help?  There would still be the screws to transmit vibration.

You are correct.  The only methods other than adhesively bonding the two to a elastomeric strip (which I would not trust overhead) would be to mechanically attach the two sheets to a spacer with alternate through holes in the bottom layer.  You would need a flexible strip capable of being mechanically fastened to the bottom layer and between each fastener you provide a clearance hole in the drywall and attach the strip to the ceiling, thus the sound vibrations will have to follow a zigzag path through the strip which will act as a flexible spring and minimize the coupling.  Of course calk the clearance holes after installation. Regards, John

Response:

Why a second layer of sheetrock?  Cause I think that very low frequencies are still coming through.  Not music, but footsteps.  More mass seems like a good idea.

As I said low frequencies are the most difficult to attenuate.  What you have done so far appears to be well thought out and based on good sound abatement principles.  The problem with low frequencies is that they couple well with large surfaces causing them to act like a sounding board.  Another surface, parallel and behind this surface, will couple to it through the air trapped between acting like a fluid which will couple the movement quite well at low frequencies. This is similar to the effect you get with an ear plug or headphones–if you break the seal between the ear plug and the ear canal you will notice a drastic reduction in volume, but with a good seal the speaker diaphragm moves and the trapped air causes the ear drum to move by the air acting like a non-compressible fluid. Unfortunately the mass of the intervening layers has declining efficacy as you lower the target frequency. Decoupling the additional layer of drywall and filling the void between the layers with acoustic fiberglass will attenuate the low frequencies somewhat, but I don’t think you will achieve a dramatic benefit.  A vacuum between unconnected surfaces is the ultimate solution but not very practical. Regards, John

Response:

. How to attach the second layer to the first?

Why dry wall?  Why not just install a suspended ceiling using standard acoustic ceiling tiles.  These systems are available pre-engineered with noise abatement in mind. You will lose much of the sound deadening potential if the two layers of drywall are in contact.  It would be better to have a dead space between the two layers.  I would use a couple of layers of 1/8" ethafoam packing material as a spacer and longer dry wall screws to secure the second layer of drywall. Sound deadening is more art than science there are several ways sound can intrude where it is not wanted. 1.  Free air paths such as openings, air returns, recessed light fixtures, etc. (Seal all openings between the source and the target.) 2.  Conduction paths such as conventional stud construction with two sheets attached to either side a stud wall. (Break the path to avoid direct connections between similar rigid materials, use elastomeric connections, staggered studs, etc.) 3. Direct transmission such as low frequency sounds penetrating directly through the barrier layers. (Use sound adsorbing materials, acoustic foam, lead foil, leaded vinyl, acoustic fiberglass etc.) 4.  Attack the source of the sound. (Carpet the floors, make friends with the neighbors and go to their parties, harass them until they move,  give up and move to a top floor apartment, etc.) If the major issue is low frequency thumps and rumbles I’m afraid you will see little benefit regardless of your best efforts.  The solution to this type of sound problem is expensive and requires more expertise than many contractors have.  Even if you reduce the sound level by half you will hardly be notice any improvement. Good luck, John

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My wife won’t have a suspended ceiling in our apartment. She says "too ugly". We started with a ceiling over 11 foot high and have lost about 7 inches with the treatment so far, so no problem in losing a bit more height with another layer of sheetrock. If anyone is interested in seeing how I did my ceiling you should look at:    http://www.soundproofing.org/infopages/channel.htm Go about 1/3 of the way down the page and click on the small embedded gif image to make it larger.  That is the model I followed. I started with 2 by 4’s on ‘edge’ attached at right angles to the 2 by 10’s in my existing ceiling through the existing sheetrock.  I made my own custom springy brackets so the 2 by 4’s would have some vertical play.  3.5" of sound attenuating blanket in the cavities between the 2 by 4’s which were 16" apart on center. A layer of tyvec stapled to the 2 by 4’s held the s.a.b. in place. Then a layer of 1 lb/sq ft weighted vinyl stapled to the 2 by 4’s.  Finally, resilient channel at right angles to the 2 by 4’s and the first layer of sheetrock screwed to the channel. Seems to be working well, but not really sure yet cause one step left — I left about 1/4" gap between the sheetrock and the four walls (so the sheetrock/resilient channel could float) and I have yet to caulk that (with Sheetrock brand acoustical (non-hardening) caulk).   Why a second layer of sheetrock?  Cause I think that very low frequencies are still coming through.  Not music, but footsteps.  More mass seems like a good idea.

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How to attach the second layer to the first? Two basic possibilities come to mind: 1) Use longer screws to reach through both layers of    sheet rock into the resilient channel. 2) Use construction adhesive (doesn’t sound right to    me, but I’ve seen this in a few articles) Thoughts on this? Other ways to fasten?

If using construction adhesive, get some "laminator screws" to aid in bonding the adhesive. These screws are for drywall to drywall fastening.

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I put up an additional ceiling in my apt., underneath the existing one — for soundproofing purposes. I used 3.5" of sound attenuating blanket, a layer of weighted vinyl and then resilient channel to put up the final layer (5/8" sheetrock). It works well, but I’m thinking that it wouldn’t be much  more trouble to add a second layer of 1/2" sheetrock below the first.  (Structurally, it can easily support the additional weight.) How to attach the second layer to the first? Two basic possibilities come to mind: 1) Use longer screws to reach through both layers of     sheet rock into the resilient channel. 2) Use construction adhesive (doesn’t sound right to     me, but I’ve seen this in a few articles) Thoughts on this? Other ways to fasten? Thanks.

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This is something I have been researching to do as well. I wonder with the resilient channel and vinyl, would an extra 1/2" sheetrock really make that much difference to be worth the effort?   As far as attaching it I would think that screwing it to the channel would be easier (how fast would the glue take to hold?) and not affect the soundproofing much. A couple of q’s: What did you make the new ceiling out of? I was thinking of using 2×4’s.  Also where did you get the resilient channel? Thanks Mac – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I put up an additional ceiling in my apt., underneath the existing one — for soundproofing purposes. I used 3.5" of sound attenuating blanket, a layer of weighted vinyl and then resilient channel to put up the final layer (5/8" sheetrock). It works well, but I’m thinking that it wouldn’t be much  more trouble to add a second layer of 1/2" sheetrock below the first.  (Structurally, it can easily support the additional weight.) How to attach the second layer to the first? Two basic possibilities come to mind: 1) Use longer screws to reach through both layers of     sheet rock into the resilient channel. 2) Use construction adhesive (doesn’t sound right to     me, but I’ve seen this in a few articles) Thoughts on this? Other ways to fasten? Thanks.

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Question:

I still haven’t located the Shiraz juice I was looking for, but I did locate a winery nearby (within 100 miles) that will be pressing soon.  They will have the following juices:     – vidal     – niagara     – cynthiana Do these make good wines?  I’m basically interested in a red or a blush, and I prefer dry and full-bodied.  The only time I tried a white, it was oxidized.  Of course, the kit might have arrived that way, but… Matthew

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Where are you? I would love to have access to Cynthiana juice. I am in Central Wisconsin where grapes don’t grow (unless you consider Concord as grapes).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I still haven’t located the Shiraz juice I was looking for, but I did locate a winery nearby (within 100 miles) that will be pressing soon.  They will have the following juices:     – vidal     – niagara     – cynthiana Do these make good wines?  I’m basically interested in a red or a blush, and I prefer dry and full-bodied.  The only time I tried a white, it was oxidized.  Of course, the kit might have arrived that way, but… Matthew

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The winery that is pressing the cynthiana is:     Lauderdale Cellars     196 S Washington St., Ripley, TN  38063     Phone: (901) 635-4321  Fax: 635-7540 Does it make a good dry red?  Anything special you have to do to make it come out right? Matthew

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where are you? I would love to have access to Cynthiana juice. I am in Central Wisconsin where grapes don’t grow (unless you consider Concord as grapes). I still haven’t located the Shiraz juice I was looking for, but I did locate a winery nearby (within 100 miles) that will be pressing soon.  They will have the following juices:     – vidal     – niagara     – cynthiana Do these make good wines?  I’m basically interested in a red or a blush, and I prefer dry and full-bodied.  The only time I tried a white, it was oxidized.  Of course, the kit might have arrived that way, but… Matthew

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Matthew.                 Cynthiana ( aka Norton ) can make an excellent dry red. I wish I had access to some myself. But since it’s a red grape and you are presumably going to make a red wine, you need to ferment the whole crushed fruit, not just the juice. Are you sure they didn’t say they were -picking- the cynthiana?                 Luck                                    Mike M – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does it make a good dry red?  Anything special you have to do to make it come out right?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I still haven’t located the Shiraz juice I was looking for, but I did locate a winery nearby (within 100 miles) that will be pressing soon.  They will have the following juices:     – vidal     – niagara     – cynthiana Do these make good wines?  I’m basically interested in a red or a blush, and I prefer dry and full-bodied.  The only time I tried a white, it was oxidized.  Of course, the kit might have arrived that way, but… Matthew  I still have a hard time believing they are already going to harvest

their Cynthiana? Ours wont’ come in until mid October.  I imagine any Cynthiana harvested now would be way under-ripe, very low Brix and way too much acidity.  It is a very acidic grape to begin with even after reaching 22 Brix.  I would be weary of buying that juice, at least make sure they give you a Ph and acid level on it before you buy.. let me know how it goes, I just bottled some good Cynthiana, so keep in touch if you need any tips, there are a couple of others here who know their Cynthiana very well too. cheers, zinful — Fine wine & a good woman, who needs anything more? Before you buy.

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     If you were to blend Vidal grape juice and Niagara grape juice could you make Viagra wine?                Jim L.

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Lincoln), during thier allotted 5 minutes at Arecibo:     If you were to blend Vidal grape juice and Niagara grape juice could you make Viagra wine?               Jim L.

You could market that and it might just sell like hotcakes  - NR "We are George Ohm of Borg, resistance is voltage devided by current." C3 Agentmaking Script Numbers 41700-41750 Reserved. http://web.infoave.net/~missy1/osiris   http://web.infoave.net/~missy1/nukenorn http://members.xoom.com/Nite417       <–under reconstruction http://niter417.virtualave.net/       <–under construction

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     If you were to blend Vidal grape juice and Niagara grape juice could you make Viagra wine?                Jim L.

…probably could. However, you’d have to swallow really fast otherwise you would get a … stiff neck! (sorry, I just couldn’t resist!) Cheers, Giovanni "you must not always say what you think, but you must always think about what you say"

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I still haven’t located the Shiraz juice I was looking for, but I did locate a winery nearby (within 100 miles) that will be pressing soon.  They will have the following juices:     – vidal     – niagara     – cynthiana Do these make good wines?  I’m basically interested in a red or a blush, and I prefer dry and full-bodied.  The only time I tried a white, it was oxidized.  Of course, the kit might have arrived that way, but… Matthew  I still have a hard time believing they are already going to harvest their Cynthiana? Ours wont’ come in until mid October.  I imagine any Cynthiana harvested now would be way under-ripe, very low Brix and way too much acidity.  It is a very acidic grape to begin with even after reaching 22 Brix.  I would be weary of buying that juice, at least make sure they give you a Ph and acid level on it before you buy.. let me know how it goes, I just bottled some good Cynthiana, so keep in touch if you need any tips, there are a couple of others here who know their Cynthiana very well too. cheers, zinful — Fine wine & a good woman, who needs anything more? Before you buy.

I have Cythania that are getting close here in Arkansas…the Brix is 19.4% and the pH is 3.5–I may have to harvest early and sugar them up, otherwise the pH may get too high…what do y’all suggest?? Before you buy.

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Q: What’s the generic drug name for Viagra? A: Mycoxafillin A little medical humour from my wife, the nurse. Brian

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      If you were to blend Vidal grape juice and Niagara grape juice could you make Viagra wine?                Jim L.

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